Guild Wars 2

Hi,

I used to play Thief in the past but somehow it felt like a Thief cant contribute much for the group.

In my opinions the thief need some changes. If you want me to add anything to the lists below or disagree with anything just post it and we can discuss and change the list.

I’d rly like to read your ideas on how to make the thief more viable in groups.

But i dont want to point out only the flaws of the thief. So if there are things you think are to strong, write them down with your idea on how to nerf it.

So here are some things that i think a thief is good/ bad at.

First the good stuff:

• Kiting: using caltrops and cluster bomb to aoe farm mobs (solo play)
• Disable 1 enemy: using cloak and dagger + deadly strike can shut down some enemys to prevent them from using stuff that could be hard to deal with (heals / summons / big nukes).
• Damage: If skilled right and some conditions are met, you deal good damage (enemy hp below 50%, conditions, having over 6 initiative)
• Combo finisher: with short bow the thief is one of the best combo finishers. Having a 20% projectile on auto attack and a spammable blast finisher.
• Stealth: using stealth to skip some enemies.
• Blinding: using blackpowder can blind alot of mobss when they are close together
• Mobility: with his shadowsteps and passiv 25% move speed he is the fastest to get from 1 point to another.

Now lets get to the bad stuff.

• Boss fights: nearly no group support since blind / daze does not work 100%
• Survivability: lowest base HP and medium armor. Can drop to the floor rly fast. Cant get a reasonable survivability without loosing alot of dps.
• Venoms: With traits they have a good potential for group support. In PvP they are great. But in PvE venom aura’s range is to small to be a solid group support. (300 range while you mostly spread around bosses)
• Stealth: Ash Legion Spy Kit. No need for a Thief to invis skip something. anyone can do it.
• Damage/Support/Survivability ratio: Breaking it down, damage is mostly what a thief is good for. But compared to other classes hes does not do that much more damage to make it up for the lack of survivability and support.

I think changing the Venoms would be a rly good thing to improve the group support of a thief. compared to other classes the warrior i.e. can have great team support due to banners and shouts without putting a single point into a defensive trait line. The thief needs to max a defensive trait line to share his venoms.

What could be changed:

General:

• Group support: Other classes can support more with a damage build then thief can with support build.
• Fury: In my opinion the thief is the main crit class. It even got a trait named “critical strikes”- But there are only 3 ways to get fury with the thief. Stealing from mesmer, hitting enemy below 50% (trait) and stealing (trait). The stealing one is the only AoE fury the thief got and unfortunately i have to compare it to the Warrior again. Thief having 10s fury ~400 range and 34 -45 sec cooldown, the warrior buffs 8s fury with 600 range and 20 -25 sec cooldown. resulting 30% more fury with the warrior + higher range. Thief should be superiour with buffing fury while warrior should be the one increasing the normal damage (more might stacks). Dont take Fury away from other classes but make the thief superiour with buffing it.

Skills:

Venoms:

• Mechanic: change the “for the next X attacks” to " for the next X seconds" and/or increase the range of venom aura trait (looking at shouts and banners with 600 range). For the first change the basilisk venom would need a rework. See the Idea about basilisk venom
• Basilisk venom: Reduce the stun duration to 1/2 or 1/4. Make it stackable and increase the number of attacks or use the venom machanic idea and make the stun apply for the next 2 – 3 seconds.

Elite skills:

• Underwater: Only basilisk venom usable underwater. could give the thieves guild harpoon gun and spear. Make daggerstorm usable under water like you did with the ele whirlwind elite.

Class mechanics:

• Steal: Make it 3 steals (offensive / defensive / support) + 1 return shadowstep for ranged thieves. All 3 steals share the cooldown and you get a skill depending on the steal you used. (Panacea -> steal idea )
• Health: Reduce the gap between the low / medium / high health professions. (dee jay -> paragraph 5)
• Stealth: Increase the duration of the revealed debuff. This would help against the stealth + culling problem in WvW. Cloak and Dagger uses 6 initiative which will take close to 8 seconds to regen. So i think increasing the revealed debuff to 5 – 7 seconds wouldnt hurt to much.
• Stealth skills: add an additional “when not in combat” bonus. Backstab damage could then be decreased. In PvP you’d have to stay outside the field of view of enemy players to do a succesfull suprise attack. Since seeing the thief would result in placing an aoe and stand in it so the thief cant reach you without getting into combat.

reserved for possible expansion

I agree with your general sentiment that Thieves have poor PvE survivability and don’t really bring much to the group aside from DPS and Shadow Refuge.

While other professions have similar lackluster support, Thieves are the only ones who combine it with low survivability.

The only abilities that really benefit the group frequently are Shadow Refuge and Smoke Screen. But the latter especially pales when compared to a Guardian’s Wall of Reflection and a Guardian has many more abilities to chose from.

I think a big problem is just how redundant, meaningless or bad both Venoms and Traps are in PvE. With Defiance and high HP, most CC effects don’t amount to much. Poisons are often added via abilities making dedicated Venoms redundant.

Honestly, I’d like to see ANet do away with the 10.000 base HP professions and buff them all to 13-14k HP. The large discrepancy between high and low HP professions makes balance in PvE exceedingly difficult.

They also need to make traps more useful and generally give Thieves better group support tools. This could probably be said about Rangers too.

Long term they also need to take a look at combo-fields and in that context, Venoms as well. They should offer unikittenfects, like Basilisk Venoms does currently that can’t be achieved by your standard conditions. I mean what good are all these condition-applying combo fields when they’re all being applied by auto-attacks already.

A thief lacks alot of supportive tools which pidgeon holes them into dmg builds.
Other classes often get supportive effects tacked onto their normal skills or tank skills and with that put lots of combo fields or blinds or weakness and so on on the enemy.
When a thief tries to go more though, then he will survive more but dont offer any more support but just less damage, except you use all your initiative for blackpowder, but then you dont do much damage anymore anyway.

What I would like to see is a bigger steal revamp to give it a stronger tactical value.
I posted an idea on how to change steal once on the forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback/page/6#post852944

It would give thieves better tools to support a team and even make steal more attractive for ranged thieves.
You can even put several traits which make certain steals stronger in the traits, like a stronger heal-steal in the shadowarts tree, a better CC-steal in deadly arts, a better dmg-steal in critical strikes and so on. With that you can even remove some stupid traits which nobody uses anyway and offer an alternative to play a thief more as thief and not as a wannabe assassin who sometimes steals green goo from mobs.

Thx for the feedback so far.
It looks good and i will add as much as possible of your stuff to my list.
Hope 2 reserved posts will be enough if i keep it up.

I want this to become something the devs can look at and see the community’s ideas on 1 site.

And yes, some classes can go nearly full damage, pick 2 support utility skills and have more group support then the thief that skilled fully support.

“blind / daze does not work 100%”
You realize Headshot is the single best ability in the game at stripping stacks of Defiant, right?

Yes, it strips defiant stacks. but at what cost?
A boss gains at least 10 stacks of defiant each time.

Headshot needs 4 initiative.
That would make 40 initiative.
That would make 6 cloak and dagger + backstab, 8 pistol whips or 13 backstabs.

Then someone else uses a random crowd control that does like nothing sonce its not timed.

And hey look… the boss got 20 new stacks of defiant.

crouze.3078:

A boss gains at least 10 stacks of defiant each time.

That isn’t how defiant works.

I agree with the basic premise, that thieves could use more support options, although I don’t necessarily agree that they lack survivability. A big problem is that thieves are balanced around condition-based support and these conditions simply aren’t effective in the most important PvE fights. That doesn’t just go for blind, but for weakness as well.

Added Panacea’s and dee jay’s ideas.

Please keep the input up.

well, i don’t see A-net dream team to actually buff the thief for PVE after so much QQ tears from WvW or PVP
yes, you pump 8 headshots and lose 32 initiative …. the cost is a lot of damage lost, so … no.
you can’t melee bosses because of lol hp/toughness ratios, and the auto atack from pistol is very weak, and no synergy at all with dps builds….

venom aura 300 range, and the kitten shouts/banners are 600+ ? is this fair ???
traps are still LOL at PVE. There are 3 options:
a)suck it up until god will have mercy
b)play another game
c)roll a guardian/warrior for PVE partys

DanH.5879:

well, i don’t see A-net dream team to actually buff the thief for PVE after so much QQ tears from WvW or PVP

Yeah, maybe after they fixed the culling problem that makes the thieves stealth so much stronger.

Getting together in a 300 radius around the thief not only needs the group to coordinate. but it also makes the group suffer more from AoE spells.

No group wants to get together and be hit by some AoE stuff for the low bonuses of venoms.

I’d like the idea to see them change from “for the next X attacks” to something like " for the next X seconds".

I think depending on the Poison that could be 5 – 10 seconds.
Basilisk venom could become a problem though because it does not stack.
It would need to be able to stack up to 3 seconds. Reduce the stun duration per hit ( to like 1/4 second). and the time for it would need to be lower. like 3 seconds.

This way it would need 12 hits to get to the 3 second cap.
In theory the max stun duration would be 6 seconds but you’d have calculate that after using the Venom, it takes some time before the first attack hits.

So I think it would be more like a maximum of 5 seconds.

DanH.5879:

yes, you pump 8 headshots and lose 32 initiative …. the cost is a lot of damage lost, so … no.
you can’t melee bosses because of lol hp/toughness ratios, and the auto atack from pistol is very weak, and no synergy at all with dps builds….

So what you’re complaining about is that you don’t have dps, utility, and survivability all at the same time.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So what you’re complaining about is that you don’t have dps, utility, and survivability all at the same time.

Its more like that the thief can only choose 1 of them while there are some classes that have medium utility and survivability while having good dps.

If thief wants medium utility and survivability he has medium to low dps.

My thief has 22k hp and a ton of toughness. I can still pack a punch with my Daggers. I know the DPS drops by alot but I can do more dps then a thief that goes down and takes another player to rezz if a boss in a dungeon hits them or they get aoe’d in WvW.

Make venoms provide a passive chance to proc on hit (say, 16% for drake and snake, 8% for devourer, 4% for basilisk, 32% for Spider when traited) with no icd. This way we can benefit more but randomly from cc venoms without constantly renewing duration but also not stacking it rediculously long in burst. Increase aura range to 900. Reduce base venom leach but increase power coefficient so its weaker when lower power but stronger with higher power. Deadly arts t1 trait applies 4s might per proc.

No change to revealed buff.
Make back stab a double hit so toughness applies twice. Same for CD

Reduce init cost on #4 skill for all weapons by 1 unit but reduce damage to compensate.
Allow for trait that increases short bow range to 1200 (t1 shadow arts)

Make mug non critable or reduce damage. Make steal a stun breaker but don’t allow it to be used while channeling.

Buff pistol main hands. Make body shot a blast effect centering you and or ur target.
Fix or replace flanking strike.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

DanH.5879:

yes, you pump 8 headshots and lose 32 initiative …. the cost is a lot of damage lost, so … no.
you can’t melee bosses because of lol hp/toughness ratios, and the auto atack from pistol is very weak, and no synergy at all with dps builds….

So what you’re complaining about is that you don’t have dps, utility, and survivability all at the same time.

You mean like a Warrior and Guardian?

@Kitino:

thx, i like your venom idea
I will add your ideas later to the list.

But can you explain what you mean with making backstab a double hit?

As far as i know toughness is not a flat dmg reduction.

So the math would be:
100 dmg – 10% = 90 dmg

With 2 hits:
(50 dmg – 10%) + (50 dmg -10%)
45 + 45 = 90 dmg

it would still be the same.

What do the others think about the duration increase of the revealed debuff?

While the OP is a well thought out post. I must disagree with the survivability argument. It is possible with sword builds to make an outright tank yet still do pretty good dps, enough to blow up all the silly glass cannons that roll around anyway.

Adaneshade.2409:

While the OP is a well thought out post. I must disagree with the survivability argument. It is possible with sword builds to make an outright tank yet still do pretty good dps, enough to blow up all the silly glass cannons that roll around anyway.

What build are you talking about exactly?
I know some pistol whip thiefs using the evasion.
But in my opion its only average survivability and dmg.

But maybe you can prove me the opposite

crouze.3078:

Adaneshade.2409:

While the OP is a well thought out post. I must disagree with the survivability argument. It is possible with sword builds to make an outright tank yet still do pretty good dps, enough to blow up all the silly glass cannons that roll around anyway.

What build are you talking about exactly?
I know some pistol whip thiefs using the evasion.
But in my opion its only average survivability and dmg.

But maybe you can prove me the opposite

I posted a build in the forums here just recently, take a look.

Adaneshade.2409:

crouze.3078:

Adaneshade.2409:

While the OP is a well thought out post. I must disagree with the survivability argument. It is possible with sword builds to make an outright tank yet still do pretty good dps, enough to blow up all the silly glass cannons that roll around anyway.

What build are you talking about exactly?
I know some pistol whip thiefs using the evasion.
But in my opion its only average survivability and dmg.

But maybe you can prove me the opposite

I posted a build in the forums here just recently, take a look.

i remember this one. one of the better builds on this forum.

but i dont like the 2 utility skills for stealth when you have a dagger offhand.

instead of blinding powder i would take 1 of these:

• Shadowstep
• Caltrops
• Tripwire
• Ambush

as i wrote “tripwire” i thought about the idea of charges for it.
or a duration after someone stepped on it before it vanish.
but tha may be to strong so forget about that for now

crouze.3078:

Adaneshade.2409:

crouze.3078:

Adaneshade.2409:

While the OP is a well thought out post. I must disagree with the survivability argument. It is possible with sword builds to make an outright tank yet still do pretty good dps, enough to blow up all the silly glass cannons that roll around anyway.

What build are you talking about exactly?
I know some pistol whip thiefs using the evasion.
But in my opion its only average survivability and dmg.

But maybe you can prove me the opposite

I posted a build in the forums here just recently, take a look.

i remember this one. one of the better builds on this forum.

but i dont like the 2 utility skills for stealth when you have a dagger offhand.

instead of blinding powder i would take 1 of these:

• Shadowstep
• Caltrops
• Tripwire
• Ambush

as i wrote “tripwire” i thought about the idea of charges for it.
or a duration after someone stepped on it before it vanish.
but tha may be to strong so forget about that for now

I used to run utilities similar to what you prefer. However, in the dueling circuits, I’ve been running into more and more people who are nearly impossible to land C&D on. They are just too kitten good at dodging it. They are basically now my “oh kitten” buttons for when i need a quick condition purge or some hp regen.