Guild Wars 2

If I had to choose one weapon set I use the most, it’s the duel daggers. When it comes to ranged fighting though it tends to vary. In dungeons, I find myself using the SB for PvE, I like rolling the pistols. Now I’ve read around and a lot of my fellow thieves HATE P/P combo. I don’t blame them for choosing SB since it has AoE’s, is stronger, helps you escape, and ironically, longer range (I believe from my own experiences, if I’m wrong feel free to point that out). I love the SB, but I also enjoy PP. The auto attack is bad, that I can agree, it’s just too slow. It also seems the only good damage based attack is unload. The other utilities seemed based around you having allies nearby since dazing them or making them vulnerable seems kinda pointless if you’re by yourself with just PP. But I digress, I know you guys have issues and with issues come suggestions. I would like to hear what you think would make P/P good enough to see the ratio of SB to P/P at least 60%-40% and not its current 90%-10%

As I’ve posted on multiple other threads, P/P is a bit lacking in the useful utility department, but its biggest problem is actually damage output. The primary issue affecting its damage output is Vital Shot’s slow firing rate relative to its weak damage and short bleed duration. If they buffed Vital Shot to fire about 20% faster than it does currently (which was probably the original intention), you’d almost certainly see many more people using it.

Honestly, Vital Shot issues aside, P/P abilties just don’t have a lot of synergy. Body Shot is hardly every used, and any buff to P/P’s direct damage will make it used even less. To me Body Shot is something that P/D might use in situations where the bleed cap is an issue, that way it can still contribute (since the vulnerability cap is generally harder to hit than the bleed cap is). But since P/P has Unload (+ the trait that applies vuln on crits), it will very rarely be in a situation where Body Shot will be practical (I think most of us would rather have an ability that’s more useful, like a cripple or AoE).

The other ability lacking synergy is Black Powder. Now don’t get me wrong, this is an extremely powerful ability on it’s own, but it’s not nearly as powerful for P/P as it is for D/P and S/P. This is because a.) Vital Shot is weak, and when you are using Black Powder you are generally relying on your #1 attack and b.) P/P is supposed to be kiting/staying at range. Black Powder, being a melee ability, naturally goes against the theme of P/P.

My suggestion to fix these is a bit rash, but here it is anyay: Make pistol mainhand a medium/short range kit and add a new weapon set (Rifle) to fill the long range slot.

Basically, give Thief P/P the Engineer treatment. Make the attacks do more damage the closer you are to your enemy (or just straight up require them to be close). Up the damages to make up for the lost range. This would make sense from both a practical standpoint (P/D already needs to be close, at least temporarily, it wouldn’t really be a drastic change) and a historical standpoint (muzzle-loaded pistols like the ones in this game were notorious for having short range compared to rifles of the same era).

Tweaking vital shot to what it should have been + some kind of movement buff (at least swiftness) on weapon bar.
Vital shot does less damage at less range with less bleeding than warrior rifle auto with same firing rate.
And damage of the set is not the problem, its just that in pvp it is very hard to deliver it reliably – unload is too easy to break for the ini cost that is payed even before you make first hit

I run p/p and sb in pve and dungeons. I love it!! I use p/p on single targets and sb on multiple. I do switch between the 2 on champs. I’ve found that going 20/20/30 helps because you get +5% on duel wield and +5% on pistols. I have never had someone say I was useless in a dungeon and I prefer to stay ranged as I get kitten dizzy kiting in circles. The toughness helps keep me alive for the most part.

You may love it and be able to use due to no damage meters in the game, but try it against say the giant Krakas or WvW in solo play and so on….

I know it takes forever to kill something but I am not going to change what I like just because I don’t kill it quickly. Everyone has their own play style and what suits one may not suit the other. But don’t dismiss something just because you can’t kill stuff fast enough with it.

If you talk general pve I don’t see what is that “killing fast” point you make.
P/P has enough damage to kill any regular open world mob without moving before it even makes to you.
And pretty much as far as soloing karkas goes its all over p/p there. As I started and popularized it in exactly that way.

Depends on what it is, or maybe they think my Asura is just too cute and has to get closer to me

Ichishi.9613:

If you talk general pve I don’t see what is that “killing fast” point you make.
P/P has enough damage to kill any regular open world mob without moving before it even makes to you.
And pretty much as far as soloing karkas goes its all over p/p there. As I started and popularized it in exactly that way.

Can you kill the giant Krakas? Solo some Champs?

chocomamma.1539:

I know it takes forever to kill something but I am not going to change what I like just because I don’t kill it quickly. Everyone has their own play style and what suits one may not suit the other. But don’t dismiss something just because you can’t kill stuff fast enough with it.

That is entirely fine, up to a point. People might also choose to use Sword/Nothing for instance. S/blank is arguably better DPS than P/P, but weaker in most respects. You can literally spam auto attacks with any weapon and get along fine in open-world PvE. Where the community has a problem with it is:

A) If you’re in a group, that group has the right to drop you or not invite you in the future if they determine that you’re being overly ineffective. Most groups won’t, especially PUGs don’t really care to optimize to that degree, and that is fine. However, if you’ve decided to choose play style over effectiveness and your group is struggling, you need to realize that some of the blame rests with you.

B) If you complain about being ineffective. If you choose a less effective playstyle and you struggle, that is on you. If you have constructive feedback to make the game better, great, but there’s no “I chose to wear full Cleric’s gear because that is my preferred play style and now I keep losing duels in WvW”.

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying a particular play style, even if that play style is less effective, but when you bring that play style into a group setting it becomes everyone else’s business.

Ichishi.9613:

If you talk general pve I don’t see what is that “killing fast” point you make.

“Killing fast” in open-world PvE is all about AE damage. To that end, P/P will never be able to compete as long as it lacks AE capability. Unload spam may be only slightly below sword auto attack against a single target, but once you’re fighting multiple targets at once the DPS (and therefore kill-rate) isn’t even comparable.

not everything is about aoe damage. When you need aoe damage, you are most likely in a group and shortbow will be the solution.
P/P, as it is, does not give outstanding even single target damage but for example in cove – where most mobs have to much hp to be 2-hitted with bs thief – it shines with ability to kill before taking damage with practically zero effort.
I can run around with full zerk gear and 3 signets as p/p in cove/cs. Most of mobs are vital shot + 1 or 2 unloads. And you are not forced to take damage. I WAS running bs. I WAS runnning all kinds of sword builds. Nothing gave me as much mobs/time during solo play with an added benefit of actually not even needing to concern very low surviveability

Ichishi.9613:

I can run around with full zerk gear and 3 signets as p/p in cove/cs. Most of mobs are vital shot + 1 or 2 unloads. And you are not forced to take damage. I WAS running bs. I WAS runnning all kinds of sword builds. Nothing gave me as much mobs/time during solo play with an added benefit of actually not even needing to concern very low surviveability

Sounds like you’re specifically choosing to engage one mob at a time as a play style choice. In that situation, P/P fares better. But specifically limiting yourself to not using AE damage and then declaring it not very useful doesn’t make much sense.

Also, spamming Unload on small karka will just result in them spamming their own version back at you, which does conditions and hits much harder. Spamming unload at large karka and hoping it dies before it gets to you will just result in death.

Many people don’t know that its enough to press A and D once at right time for karka’s ranged every missle to miss you.
Never said about killing large karka (who will ever want to kill them alone anyway) before they reach me. But given that they two-shot glass cannons in melee i would really prefer stay as far away as possible with P/P switching to shortbow for adds/fields/occasional evade when without endurance
And sorry, I cannot think of place in 80-areas (outside maybe troll farm) where ALONE you can better farm with aoe than with single targets

I do contribute in groups as I do switch between p/p and sb, I use shadow refuge to help downed players. I may not have the DPS of a warrior but I help by staying alive long enough to help others who need it. I fail to see how that is not contributing. I only play pve so the style works for me. The only time I will be doing wvw is to get my map comp.

It’s pretty power based since there’s no CnD and the auto attack is meh. If BP was less costly and the auto attack was faster it would fair better.

Ichishi.9613:

And sorry, I cannot think of place in 80-areas (outside maybe troll farm) where ALONE you can better farm with aoe than with single targets

It is fairly easy to pull and kill 3-7 mobs at a time in Orr, Frostgorge, or non-karka areas of Southsun Cove. I prefer Orr, simply because mob density is high enough to maintain these large pulls, but certain areas of Frostgorge are also suitable (Path of Starry Skies, for instance, has tons of level 80 Icebrood).

If killing >3 mobs at a time is an issue, it might be because your preferred playstyle uses a weapon that isn’t conducive to AE combat.

chocomamma.1539:

I do contribute in groups as I do switch between p/p and sb, I use shadow refuge to help downed players. I may not have the DPS of a warrior but I help by staying alive long enough to help others who need it. I fail to see how that is not contributing. I only play pve so the style works for me. The only time I will be doing wvw is to get my map comp.

It isn’t a question of “contributing or not” as much as “are you reaching your potential”. Someone using Pistol/Nothing and spamming auto attack is contributing, but they could be contributing more, same with most applications of P/P. Again, though, there’s always room for improvement, and you could do a lot worse than P/P.

P/P is something you use when you either need to run around and get people up or the MOB is way too letal from up close. You can go for the SB too but, personally I can’t stand a stick with a string when I can shoot pistols like a kitten outlaw from old western movies. Your main source of damage is still melee, when you have to go ranged, it’s more of a choice between fighting like a gay elf or a cowboy!

Simple:
-Replace “Unload” with “Double Tap”, firing 2 quick successive shots- the first shot applying 5s Weakness and the second applying a 1/2s Daze. Deals Unloads’ cumulative damage split between both rounds. 1s “cast”. 5 initiative.
-Black Powder causes AoE blind in a 240 radius, but Stealths the Thief and allies in the radius instead of creating a smoke field. (Giving P/P initiative-based Stealthing, also giving more Stealth utility to off-hand Pistol builds.) 1s “cast” 6 initiative.

IMHO, with those two changes, P/P would be lightyears ahead of it’s current state and would drastically improve the viability of other off-hand pistol builds to boot, giving the Thief more options with such a limited selection of weapon sets.

i don’t understand why anybody is comparing them to the damage output of melee weapons.

try bringing caltrops *on dodge. or initiative on crit, unload is almost sure to proc it, sometimes twice. also consider it’s the fastest way to proc signet of malice when you only have one target.

personally i take that initiative on weapon swap trait, so i’m never in p/p long enough to have to fall back on vital shot. if you’re always dropping unloads and it’s always when you’re kiting or otherwise unable to melee, i don’t really see the problem.

Ichishi.9613:

not everything is about aoe damage. When you need aoe damage, you are most likely in a group and shortbow will be the solution.
P/P, as it is, does not give outstanding even single target damage but for example in cove – where most mobs have to much hp to be 2-hitted with bs thief – it shines with ability to kill before taking damage with practically zero effort.
I can run around with full zerk gear and 3 signets as p/p in cove/cs. Most of mobs are vital shot + 1 or 2 unloads. And you are not forced to take damage. I WAS running bs. I WAS runnning all kinds of sword builds. Nothing gave me as much mobs/time during solo play with an added benefit of actually not even needing to concern very low surviveability

this guy takes the words right out of my mouth.

To swap to from D/D to dish out stealth sneak attack bleeds as condition build w/o using ini. when you run out. Unload is also more useful in certain boss situations where you’d end up spamming shortbow AA, which isn’t as effective. Headshot is also an awesome interrupt on certain annoying enemies/bosses.

senate.8126:

i don’t understand why anybody is comparing them to the damage output of melee weapons.

try bringing caltrops *on dodge. or initiative on crit, unload is almost sure to proc it, sometimes twice. also consider it’s the fastest way to proc signet of malice when you only have one target.

Because in most situations melee weapons are a viable option.

And PW is significantly better for procing Signet of Malice or anything benefiting from hit volume in general, even against one target. Against multiple targets, it isn’t even comparable. The only thing unique to Unload is the ability to create rapid combo attacks by using it through a combo field.

Doggie

Headshot is also an awesome interrupt on certain annoying enemies/bosses.

Yeah, but you don’t need to use P/P to get Headshot.

If what you call aoe damage on thief sword auto and pw?
Sorry, but even cluster bomb outperforms that. And pw is totally bad because evade frame ends just as mob does first attack after stun.

Remove useless traits, as we have too many of them.

Change 5% Chance to bounce to 100% Chance to Pierce. (Bouncing just gets you unwanted aggro anyways…)
Change Pistol Mastery to 5% Extra Damage/10% Extra Critical Chance.

Tulisin.6945:

Because in most situations melee weapons are a viable option.

lol.

They’re ranged weapons, nobody needs to act surprised that they do less damage then melee.

senate.8126:

Tulisin.6945:

Because in most situations melee weapons are a viable option.

lol.

They’re ranged weapons, nobody needs to act surprised that they do less damage then melee.

Thats not true, a bow show be doing more piercing damage then a sword should be doing.

Ichishi.9613:

If what you call aoe damage on thief sword auto and pw?
Sorry, but even cluster bomb outperforms that.

Not over a non-burst timeframe, and only against 4/5 targets. Sword AE is viable and powerful, even with a three target cap.

Tulisin.6945:

senate.8126:

i don’t understand why anybody is comparing them to the damage output of melee weapons.

try bringing caltrops *on dodge. or initiative on crit, unload is almost sure to proc it, sometimes twice. also consider it’s the fastest way to proc signet of malice when you only have one target.

Because in most situations melee weapons are a viable option.

And PW is significantly better for procing Signet of Malice or anything benefiting from hit volume in general, even against one target. Against multiple targets, it isn’t even comparable. The only thing unique to Unload is the ability to create rapid combo attacks by using it through a combo field.

Doggie

Headshot is also an awesome interrupt on certain annoying enemies/bosses.

Yeah, but you don’t need to use P/P to get Headshot.

But we’re talking about P/P so what’s your point?

Daecollo.9578:

Remove useless traits, as we have too many of them.

Change 5% Chance to bounce to 100% Chance to Pierce. (Bouncing just gets you unwanted aggro anyways…)
Change Pistol Mastery to 5% Extra Damage/10% Extra Critical Chance.

The bounce seems to do petty damage as well and not the same damage you do to your target. It’s ultra useless unless you’re that desperate to aoe proc sigils it seems.. :/

Doggie.3184:

But we’re talking about P/P so what’s your point?

Point is saying that P/P is good because of Headshot is like saying that Dagger/EmptyHand is good because of Heartseeker. They’re good skills, but they’re better with every other weapon combo but that one.

I feel p/p is fine after extensively using it in pve / wvw / dungeons. The bleed effect on the auto adds good consistent dps (if you consistently keep up the 5 stack) and the range allows for a more reckless glass cannon build. I ran 25/30/0/0/15 putting points in 5% pistol and dual ability damage. Quickness + unload and the fact you arent avoiding mob agro as much makes for a very high sustain damage as well as burst with minimal risk. And with the vulnerabilty 10 stack from body shot and the near perma blind availble due to the combo field you have above average group utility.

Tulisin.6945:

Doggie.3184:

But we’re talking about P/P so what’s your point?

Point is saying that P/P is good because of Headshot is like saying that Dagger/EmptyHand is good because of Heartseeker. They’re good skills, but they’re better with every other weapon combo but that one.

It was just one example on top of everything I already said. Why so picky?

I did not read all the posts, so if this was covered, I appologize for the repetition.

I primarly run a D/D condition build, and with my current gear I get a lot more bang for my buck going with a Shorbow due to the bleeds and condition damage granted by said weapon.

I use to play a S/P Crit build, and with that particular build I found the P/P to be a better option. The reason being is that the vast majority of my damage came from melee. Even with the Shortbow my damage suffered greatly when I had to back out into range. With a P/P weapon set, Signet of Malice, Sigil of Blood on my mainhand pistol, and some lifesteal food I can VERY quickly heal myself back to full and get back into the game with my S/P set and resume my heavy damage rotation.

So to recap: (my personal preference) Use a Shortbow if you run a condition build, P/P if you run heavy crit.

The ID.3824:

I feel p/p is fine after extensively using it in pve / wvw / dungeons. The bleed effect on the auto adds good consistent dps (if you consistently keep up the 5 stack) and the range allows for a more reckless glass cannon build. I ran 25/30/0/0/15 putting points in 5% pistol and dual ability damage. Quickness + unload and the fact you arent avoiding mob agro as much makes for a very high sustain damage as well as burst with minimal risk. And with the vulnerabilty 10 stack from body shot and the near perma blind availble due to the combo field you have above average group utility.

I think that depends on your definition of “good consistent DPS”. Vital Shot is the worst DPS of any thief auto attack (sans single-target shortbow) by a good margin, but it lets you stay at a safe range and doesn’t burn any initiative.

Unload isn’t “very high sustain damage”, it is definitely good burst with Quickness, but any ability is good burst with quickness. Body shot is debatable as to what it brings to the group unless you’re running a support-heavy build. So we’re back at P/P being low damage, medium utility (or vice versa, due to initiative reliance), high survivability.

Tulisin.6945:

The ID.3824:

I feel p/p is fine after extensively using it in pve / wvw / dungeons. The bleed effect on the auto adds good consistent dps (if you consistently keep up the 5 stack) and the range allows for a more reckless glass cannon build. I ran 25/30/0/0/15 putting points in 5% pistol and dual ability damage. Quickness + unload and the fact you arent avoiding mob agro as much makes for a very high sustain damage as well as burst with minimal risk. And with the vulnerabilty 10 stack from body shot and the near perma blind availble due to the combo field you have above average group utility.

I think that depends on your definition of “good consistent DPS”. Vital Shot is the worst DPS of any thief auto attack (sans single-target shortbow) by a good margin, but it lets you stay at a safe range and doesn’t burn any initiative.

Unload isn’t “very high sustain damage”, it is definitely good burst with Quickness, but any ability is good burst with quickness. Body shot is debatable as to what it brings to the group unless you’re running a support-heavy build. So we’re back at P/P being low damage, medium utility (or vice versa, due to initiative reliance), high survivability.

Except P/P has no access to stealth, so its actually poor survivability.

People are saying things about Shortbow being AoE and Pistols being single target and all that jazz… But, really, Shortbow does much more single target DPS as well. A Clusterbomb does the damage of an Unload without including the bleed, plus it’s not a channel (doesn’t tie up your time for auto-attacking).

JonPeters.5630:

We are looking into this. I actually think P/P has a lot of utility. Blind field, daze, vuln stacking. However damage is a bit low. We are making some headway here in the12/14 build so be patient for one more week.

Jon

Let me be the first to say…thank you!

I am quite intrigued to see the changes, and I can’t wait to play the game after my exams end on the 12th. Just one more thing to look forward to next week.

JonPeters.5630:

We are looking into this. I actually think P/P has a lot of utility. Blind field, daze, vuln stacking. However damage is a bit low. We are making some headway here in the12/14 build so be patient for one more week.

Jon

Looking forward to it. I think it is important to remember that blind field and daze aren’t P/P utility though, they’re /P utility. The initiative system means that utility-heavy skills aren’t worked into a regular rotation but used completely situationally as an intentional trade of damage for utility. As a result, even if these (pistol offhand) utility skills are good on their own, they don’t make P/P good, they just make it that much more obvious that one should use S/P or D/P over P/P, since both of those sets utilize the pistol off-hand better than P/P does.

In short, the key to fixing P/P is going to be mostly in the first three skills, make Pistol mainhand viable and pistol offhand will follow on its own.

Vuln stacking belongs to the pistol main hand, but, again, the initiative system means the thief is consciously gutting their own DPS output by a large percentage in order to boost groupmates’. In theory, this means if the thief boosts 4 other people’s damage by 15 % then the thief easily makes up for losing 50 % of their damage. In practice, most thieves are well above the group average for damage output, making the sacrifice of personal damage in return for group damage a losing proposition for the group.

My suggestion to make P/P better:

- 1200 range (we need ONE set with decent range!)
- Head Shot should do ACTUAL damage AND crit if it successfully interrupts a cast.
- Pistol Mastery should be rolled into the actual weapons damage (i.e. +5% damage buff for all pistol skills)
- Ricochet should either be buffed to something like 50% (5%? SERIOUSLY?) or removed and replaced with a pistol trait thats actually worth getting (how about the 1200 range on pistol trait???)

Keep sneak attack as it is, it’s perfect!

Why not combine Vital Shot and Body Shot into a Combo in the 1 slot.

Attack 1 – Vital Shot – Main Pistol (Right Hand)
Attack 2 – Body Shot – Second Pistol (Left Hand) – instead of 5 stacks of Vuln per shot, make it 1 or 2 stacks.
Stealth – Sneak Attack

sure do hope that update won’t destroy p/p like everything else that was improved since launch

JonPeters.5630:

We are looking into this. I actually think P/P has a lot of utility. Blind field, daze, vuln stacking. However damage is a bit low. We are making some headway here in the12/14 build so be patient for one more week.

Jon

dude, what have you been smoking ? i want some too:
1. blind field vs dungeon boss is terrible, also the range is lol and 6 initiative??
2. 4 initiative just to rip 1 of the 7 defiant stacks a boss has? so i need 28-32 initiative just to interupt the boss ONCE…good joke…
3. vuln ? i think i better not use it, overall all party does more damage if i do auto attack or unloads…

Since JonPeters read this topic, I would like to quickly report a problem with Headshot – it can be delayed by auto-attack’s animation (P/P). The delay can be over 0.5 second long. So, when I see somebody rising hand to heal, many times Headshot is delayed despite fact I clicked it, and hits after the target heals.
So, please make Headshot instant and not dependant on animations, like dodge roll.

PS: same with Flanking Strike, it has to be instant, non-delayed by animations dodge!

Dagins

Headshot is delayed despite fact I clicked it, and hits after the target heals.
So, please make Headshot instant and not dependant on animations, like dodge roll.

Along with this one there are a few frustrating issues while using pistols that can turn out to be fatal.

Sometimes, while in a totally opened and flat field shooting at an opponent, some of your shots will count as obstructed for no apparent reason.
I guess this isn’t only a pistol issue though.

Cancelling an auto attack when needed can turn out to be very tricky when you’re not on a WASD hotkey setup (i know i’m part of a minority but i’m on numpad and accessing ESC is not wise) since left clicking anywhere on the screen doesn’t work.
I can still disable auto attack from vital shot but i’d love to be able to left click like it is possible with shortbows for exemple, instead.

I don’t know if other classes have the same issue with some of their chanelling skills, but using unload will be canceled immediately if you aren’t facing enough your target, but you still lose the whole 5 initiative.
Maybe it’s intended and i would understand this is a way of rewarding positionning and evading, although i would suggest to make it consume initiative gradually instead, from the number of shots you really fire (even if they miss though).

Black powder is really expensive, it is indeed a good utility but you can’t mitigate its cost through the Opportunist trait unlike unload.

I made myself a nice P/P build i’ve been using for a week in pvp now, was kinda bored with d/d backstab, except the issues mentionned above i would say that vital shot is the culprit if you’re looking to buff the damage capacity, be it with a damage or condition build.
I would not suggest to improve the raw damage, you may want to make it attack a bit faster instead so it benefits both damage and condition builds.

Of course there is still the matter of body shot but honestly i never use it, except sometimes on svanir and the chieftain because all our zerg is on it (and i still wonder if auto attacking wouldn’t end up dealing more overall damage anyway), so i don’t really have any idea of what to do about it.

JonPeters.5630:

We are looking into this. I actually think P/P has a lot of utility. Blind field, daze, vuln stacking. However damage is a bit low. We are making some headway here in the12/14 build so be patient for one more week.

Jon

I think few people will argue that Pistol Offhand is weak. Whatever you do to improve damage of P/P’s first three skills, please don’t make it too bursty.

And I have to second this post:

Since JonPeters read this topic, I would like to quickly report a problem with Headshot – it can be delayed by auto-attack’s animation (P/P). The delay can be over 0.5 second long. So, when I see somebody rising hand to heal, many times Headshot is delayed despite fact I clicked it, and hits after the target heals.
So, please make Headshot instant and not dependant on animations, like dodge roll.

PS: same with Flanking Strike, it has to be instant, non-delayed by animations dodge!

This is a problem across the whole game, not just with Thief!

Dagins.5163:

So, please make Headshot instant and not dependant on animations, like dodge roll.

Perhaps it would be better to have Headshot interrupt the currently activating ability in order to prioritize Headshots usage (with the exception of the healing skill)? Hopefully you get what I mean once you get past my horrible grammar in that sentence.

Headshot isn’t the only problem either. Try looking at Repeater and tell me that it doesn’t need a damage boost. Being a skill that requires no offhand, it really sucks when you factor in all that you lost to be able to use it, and it is not just the final two skills on your bar.

drake.2135:

Dagins.5163:

So, please make Headshot instant and not dependant on animations, like dodge roll.

Perhaps it would be better to have Headshot interrupt the currently activating ability in order to prioritize Headshots usage (with the exception of the healing skill)? Hopefully you get what I mean once you get past my horrible grammar in that sentence.

Headshot isn’t the only problem either. Try looking at Repeater and tell me that it doesn’t need a damage boost. Being a skill that requires no offhand, it really sucks when you factor in all that you lost to be able to use it, and it is not just the final two skills on your bar.

Honestly, Bodyshot needs changed, Repeater should be what body shot is (with a damage boost/ini reduction.)

Fix our “40% Chance to cause 1 vulnerability on critical chance” to be useful like every other classes, remove body shot.

Repeater, a high damage, but low range pistol attack (450 range.) where you fire at your foe repeatedly, 3 ini, high damage.

Basicly it would be our “Hes at closer range, FIRE!”

Opportunist also needs the 1 second Internal CD removed as well.

drake.2135:

Try looking at Repeater and tell me that it doesn’t need a damage boost. Being a skill that requires no offhand, it really sucks when you factor in all that you lost to be able to use it, and it is not just the final two skills on your bar.

I’m all for trying to tune up all three of the X/empty #3 skills if they implement some way to have offhand stats or even skills with them. If not, they’re not worth the man-hours to try and make viable when they’re only ever going to be used during the first half hour of a new thieves’ life.