Guild Wars 2

Make body shot a target table aoe blast. This will create stealth viability for p/p that will make for great support builds and condition DMG builds without sacrificing the pure DMG from unload.

Wiredgunslinger.5480:

So make the #4/5 initiative reduction as part of a trait for P/P’s only. Done.

It’d be the first thief trait not only specific to a weapon, but to a particular weapon combo. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it’d set a bad precedent to be sure.

Vital Shot: Fix the stupid animation bug that is causing this skill to do garbage for DPS.
Body Shot: Increase the duration of Vulnerability to 11 seconds, and increase the damage output by 30%.

I think these 2 alone would make P/P solid mid-tier.

i personally just want the skill 1 to be FASTER.

MasterGeese.4756:

Vital Shot: Fix the stupid animation bug that is causing this skill to do garbage for DPS.
Body Shot: Increase the duration of Vulnerability to 11 seconds, and increase the damage output by 30%.

I think these 2 alone would make P/P solid mid-tier.

Azura.4172:

i personally just want the skill 1 to be FASTER.

Thank you for utilizing common sense instead of attempting to over-analyze every utilitarian function of the set prematurely. It couldn’t be more obvious that Vital Shot’s atrocious DPS (almost certainly due to an animation/cooldown oversight/bug) is single-handedly 75% of what’s “off” about both P/P and P/D.

Einlanzer.1627:

MasterGeese.4756:

Vital Shot: Fix the stupid animation bug that is causing this skill to do garbage for DPS.
Body Shot: Increase the duration of Vulnerability to 11 seconds, and increase the damage output by 30%.

I think these 2 alone would make P/P solid mid-tier.

Azura.4172:

i personally just want the skill 1 to be FASTER.

Thank you for utilizing common sense instead of attempting to over-analyze every utilitarian function of the set prematurely. It couldn’t be more obvious that Vital Shot’s atrocious DPS (almost certainly due to an animation/cooldown oversight/bug) is single-handedly 75% of what’s “off” about both P/P and P/D.

I’ve yet to see someone disagree that a Vital Shot upgrade is warranted, just that it is the sole solution to pistol’s problems. An upgraded VS at worst does nothing for P/P since it wouldn’t be used anyways and at best just takes Unload’s place as the spammable damage skill for P/P, making Unload underused.

Tulisin.6945:

Einlanzer.1627:

MasterGeese.4756:

Vital Shot: Fix the stupid animation bug that is causing this skill to do garbage for DPS.
Body Shot: Increase the duration of Vulnerability to 11 seconds, and increase the damage output by 30%.

I think these 2 alone would make P/P solid mid-tier.

Azura.4172:

i personally just want the skill 1 to be FASTER.

Thank you for utilizing common sense instead of attempting to over-analyze every utilitarian function of the set prematurely. It couldn’t be more obvious that Vital Shot’s atrocious DPS (almost certainly due to an animation/cooldown oversight/bug) is single-handedly 75% of what’s “off” about both P/P and P/D.

I’ve yet to see someone disagree that a Vital Shot upgrade is warranted, just that it is the sole solution to pistol’s problems. An upgraded VS at worst does nothing for P/P since it wouldn’t be used anyways and at best just takes Unload’s place as the spammable damage skill for P/P, making Unload underused.

You could maybe, just maybe make this argument for builds that are specifically and solely optimized around P/P initiative refresh and Unload spamming for maximum direct damage. Under that situation (and that alone), P/P is mostly fine anyway and tweaks they may make to the other skills (such as BS) would be just as irrelevant. The only changes that matter for this set-up would be trait changes, a few of which I agree need to be addressed, in particular Ricochet which should really be more like 25%

But the main problem with P/P and P/D both is not that they don’t optimize well (even if it could be better), it’s that they lack effectiveness in general. So, this argument doesn’t hold up to much. By itself, a VS boost would be a very dramatic improvement because a larger chunk of the damage would be streaming from a steady #1 auto at no initiative cost, meaning the player can put more energy into tactical skill use and maneuvering. Consequently, pistols would stop being so overly-reliant on heavy optimization to even approach being effective. This in turn means they would be much more usable in a much broader range of situations, such as while leveling, and/or using hybridized builds.

More importantly, it’s as clear as it can be without a designer admitting to it that that’s what they intended and that VS is weaker than it’s supposed to be.

Any thoughts about taking away Bleed from pistol entirely and making it a dedicated Power set?

Thieves are supposed to be the mobile class, right? I feel a big problem right now is that you have zero mobility running P/P. (Daggers have HS, Swords have 2, SB is SB.)

While Unload is okay damage at best (and it’s ranged so that’s fine), it basically forces you to backpedal while using it. I propose a simple solution to fix P/P:

Allow you to dodge while Unloading without interrupting the channel.

I don’t think this is entirely gamebreaking since there are a number of burst abilities with built in evades (Thief Pistol Whip, Mesmer Blurred Frenzy, etc.). Dodging while Unloading is okay because

1. It still uses Endurance like a regular dodge, unlike PW/BF evades
2. Unload damage is still no better than either of the above

As an added bonus, you can do cool Matrix style flips while emptying your clips on your foe. And who doesn’t love that?

dodge while still channeling unload, yea and aspirin pills as utility skills, and I’ll reroll into a human thief n call it max payne

Don’t expect any worthwhile changes. Look how they “fixed” the backstab issues, and other adjustments. Whatever you may expect, it will fall far short of any expectations.

Edit: but to throw my hat into the ring, change the bleed from Vital Shot and Sneak attack into burning damage (call it powder burn or something)

Whelm.9072:

Any thoughts about taking away Bleed from pistol entirely and making it a dedicated Power set?

I’m rather a fan of having condition damage or power damage be viable with any mainhand weapon, to the point where I’d rather see S/x get some way to apply burning/confusion than see other sets “streamlined” into one or the other. Following the “both these skills are awesome, just not necessarily with the same build” paradigm is a good way to mitigate the direct skill comparison thieves fact as a result of the initiative system.

On that note, an apply-burning-on-daze/stun trait would be an interesting way to boost Head Shot, Tactical Strike, and PW.

Tulisin.6945:

Whelm.9072:

Any thoughts about taking away Bleed from pistol entirely and making it a dedicated Power set?

I’m rather a fan of having condition damage or power damage be viable with any mainhand weapon, to the point where I’d rather see S/x get some way to apply burning/confusion than see other sets “streamlined” into one or the other. Following the “both these skills are awesome, just not necessarily with the same build” paradigm is a good way to mitigate the direct skill comparison thieves fact as a result of the initiative system.

On that note, an apply-burning-on-daze/stun trait would be an interesting way to boost Head Shot, Tactical Strike, and PW.

I have to say I agree with all of this. I’m not too keen on the idea of forcing weapons into specific builds; this would have the two-fold problem of weakening hybrid/experimental builds and restricting the number of playable weapons within each build, both of which are already bigger problems for the Thief than for other professions.

I’d love to see the following:

1. vital shot keeps same dmg, speed reduced to 1/4sec to attack, drop the bleed and replace it with 1 stack of vulnerability.

2. replace body shot with something else, not sure the best option. while i do not think pistols are a condition wepon i’d like to not see bleed on it, but maybe a criple (or knockback) with reasonable dmg (enough to use it in a normal rotation and not just for the added skill)

Now i do not expect this i what we wil get, but it will be nice. I guess we will find out tomorrow.

Tulisin.6945:

Whelm.9072:

Any thoughts about taking away Bleed from pistol entirely and making it a dedicated Power set?

I’m rather a fan of having condition damage or power damage be viable with any mainhand weapon, to the point where I’d rather see S/x get some way to apply burning/confusion than see other sets “streamlined” into one or the other. Following the “both these skills are awesome, just not necessarily with the same build” paradigm is a good way to mitigate the direct skill comparison thieves fact as a result of the initiative system.

On that note, an apply-burning-on-daze/stun trait would be an interesting way to boost Head Shot, Tactical Strike, and PW.

How is P/P even an option for a condition build as it stands now? Vulnerability doesn’t improve condition damage, so the only thing remotely condition-y about the weaponset is auto-attack.

If it’s important that P/P be an option for condition builds (personally, I don’t think it is), they should probably replace Body Shot with a condition attack, a la Heartseeker+Death Blossom for D/D.

Koga.7215:

2. replace body shot with something else, not sure the best option. while i do not think pistols are a condition wepon i’d like to not see bleed on it, but maybe a criple (or knockback) with reasonable dmg (enough to use it in a normal rotation and not just for the added skill)

I saw a few suggestions like yours.

While an on demand cripple (well, as long as you manage your initiative properly) can be very seducing, we can already trait into critical strikes and get the VII, Ankle Shot (60% 3s cripple on crit), which i bielive they put there on purpose in order tomake us choose between more damage or better control, not both.

So, i doubt this will happen, unless they decide we’re ok enough to deserve both and revamp Ankle Shot into something else.

Lymain.6723:

Tulisin.6945:

Whelm.9072:

Any thoughts about taking away Bleed from pistol entirely and making it a dedicated Power set?

I’m rather a fan of having condition damage or power damage be viable with any mainhand weapon, to the point where I’d rather see S/x get some way to apply burning/confusion than see other sets “streamlined” into one or the other. Following the “both these skills are awesome, just not necessarily with the same build” paradigm is a good way to mitigate the direct skill comparison thieves fact as a result of the initiative system.

On that note, an apply-burning-on-daze/stun trait would be an interesting way to boost Head Shot, Tactical Strike, and PW.

How is P/P even an option for a condition build as it stands now? Vulnerability doesn’t improve condition damage, so the only thing remotely condition-y about the weaponset is auto-attack.

If it’s important that P/P be an option for condition builds (personally, I don’t think it is), they should probably replace Body Shot with a condition attack, a la Heartseeker+Death Blossom for D/D.

It isn’t, and the only reason it isn’t is because Vital Shot is broken. That’s also the only thing that really needs to be fixed to make it more condition viable.

Lymain.6723:

Tulisin.6945:

Whelm.9072:

Any thoughts about taking away Bleed from pistol entirely and making it a dedicated Power set?

I’m rather a fan of having condition damage or power damage be viable with any mainhand weapon, to the point where I’d rather see S/x get some way to apply burning/confusion than see other sets “streamlined” into one or the other. Following the “both these skills are awesome, just not necessarily with the same build” paradigm is a good way to mitigate the direct skill comparison thieves fact as a result of the initiative system.

On that note, an apply-burning-on-daze/stun trait would be an interesting way to boost Head Shot, Tactical Strike, and PW.

How is P/P even an option for a condition build as it stands now? Vulnerability doesn’t improve condition damage, so the only thing remotely condition-y about the weaponset is auto-attack.

Which is why I said “mainhand”. Pistol mainhand is completely viable as-is for condition damage, and should be even moreso if VS is boosted. Similarly, dagger mainhand has viable condition builds, even if D/P isn’t a viable condition build. All mainhands, not all weapon combinations.

I’m rezzing this thread.

I play both a level 80 Thief/Level 80 Warrior, both are glass Cannony.
Volley/Unload.
Volley has an 8 second cooldown if traited.
Unload has no cooldown, but uses 5 initative, which means you have to wait 8 seconds to use it again, which pretty much means it has an 8 second cooldown, since 5 × 1.6 is 8.

Volley has more Range, costs nothing but a cooldown, you can use other abilities after you use unload, like the knock back, blind and vulnerability.
Unload can be used 3 times, but after this you must wait, and you cannot use any other abilities.

Volley does 755 more damage. (we have near identical stats, same gear as my thief on my warrior.) has more range, and a bigger advantage because you are not stuck using 1 skill for damage.

Bleeding Shot vs Vital Shot.
Same Cast/Channal time, regardless of what it says.
Vital Shot does 50 less damage in power, and 298 less damage in bleeds, this means Vital Shot does 348 less hypothetical damage.

Bleeding Shot and Volley have 100% chance to pierce, meaning they are AOE Attacks.
Again, this is using traits/gear I use for both, meaning its similar but not, but from the way I see it the math is skrewed because they have different traits/different builds, but the numbers don’t lie.

Rifle Shot/Volley are much better, Unload should be brought in line with Volleys damage, infact it should do more damage since its less range.
Vital Shot either needs a speed boost, or damage should be increased by 25-33%.
Global Cooldown for Vital Shot should be decreased by 33%, it should be firing 33% faster then it currently does.

Theoretically, Both Unload/Volley share the same cooldown (8 seconds.)
Volley does almost 30-40% more damage, AND has longer range…
Bleeding Shot/Vital Shot share the same cooldown/gcd, regardless of what it says, and Bleeding Shot does 30-40% more damage, AND has longer range…
And… its all AOE!

Pistol Damage is horrible, and the speed after you use an attack seems to be the same speed as warrior hammer.

Pistol/Pistol will never be viable unless they reduce the reuse from using pistol attacks from 0.75 to 0.25, the same speed as daggers reuse, currently Warrior RIFLES have a 0.5 speed reuse, which is why Vital Shot and Bleeding Shot are the same speed even know the Pistol has a shorter channel time.

(Retaliation/Confusion also slaughters P/P…)

I use D/D and P/P.

I wouldn’t change pistols in any way. They work perfectly fine as is. They hit hard, and the ability to blind at will makes them the ultimate ranged weapon for burst thieves. They don’t have any kind of AoE damaging ability like the Shortbow, but that’s to be expected. If you could use Pistols with an AoE, it would be overpowered, plain and simple.

I love P/P and wouldn’t change a thing. They are strong and almost the perfect single-target ranged weapon (I compare them to the Warrior’s Rifle in that way, though they don’t pierce).

I am 0/30/30/0/10 and I can spam 4 P/P shots in a row when I get ample crits (and I typically do), 6 shots if I use a few stealthing abilities to regen my initiative. Most people in WvW run with glass cannons, and I can cut down most people with around 3-4 bursts of Pistol 3 (taking into account the fact that most people dodge and/or heal when I’m shooting them). Squishy thieves and light-armor classes can sometimes go down in 1 or 2 if I get lucky with all crits or something (my crit % is 55%, without buffs or food).

If pistols were buffed, by build would be incredibly OP. Not that I’d have a huge problem with that. I’m just warning you guys.

Sounds like your fighting PvE mobs who don’t move.

Try using P/P against a mesmer who uses confusion or a guardian/warrior who abuses retaliation, you will kill yourself faster then he can kill you.

Daecollo.9578:

Sounds like your fighting PvE mobs who don’t move.

Try using P/P against a mesmer who uses confusion or a guardian/warrior who abuses retaliation, you will kill yourself faster then he can kill you.

Those are very few and far between.

I don’t do sPVP much with anything but my warrior.

In WvW, people melt under my pistol barrages. If a player has lots of retaliation, I don’t shoot them. Duh. You shouldn’t be attacking someone with retaliation up unless you can strip the boon first. Or unless you know you can afford to eat the damage that will be reflected back at you.

Same with confusion. You should be running or stealthing if you’ve got confusion until it wears off, unless you can cleanse it. (Thief DOES have weapon abilities and utilities for that.)

Does no one use their brain when fighting? Or do you all just spam your favorite attacks?

CrazyAce.3842:

Daecollo.9578:

Sounds like your fighting PvE mobs who don’t move.

Try using P/P against a mesmer who uses confusion or a guardian/warrior who abuses retaliation, you will kill yourself faster then he can kill you.

Those are very few and far between.

I don’t do sPVP much with anything but my warrior.

In WvW, people melt under my pistol barrages. If a player has lots of retaliation, I don’t shoot them. Duh. You shouldn’t be attacking someone with retaliation up unless you can strip the boon first. Or unless you know you can afford to eat the damage that will be reflected back at you.

Same with confusion. You should be running or stealthing if you’ve got confusion until it wears off, unless you can cleanse it. (Thief DOES have weapon abilities and utilities for that.)

Does no one use their brain when fighting? Or do you all just spam your favorite attacks?

P/P does not have access to a lot of stealth, this thread isn’t about daggers, and I know you run D/D and P/P, so this really doesn’t apply to that tactic.

Please stay on topic.

This thread would not of been made if there was not a problem with Pistols.

Daecollo.9578:

CrazyAce.3842:

Daecollo.9578:

Sounds like your fighting PvE mobs who don’t move.

Try using P/P against a mesmer who uses confusion or a guardian/warrior who abuses retaliation, you will kill yourself faster then he can kill you.

Those are very few and far between.

I don’t do sPVP much with anything but my warrior.

In WvW, people melt under my pistol barrages. If a player has lots of retaliation, I don’t shoot them. Duh. You shouldn’t be attacking someone with retaliation up unless you can strip the boon first. Or unless you know you can afford to eat the damage that will be reflected back at you.

Same with confusion. You should be running or stealthing if you’ve got confusion until it wears off, unless you can cleanse it. (Thief DOES have weapon abilities and utilities for that.)

Does no one use their brain when fighting? Or do you all just spam your favorite attacks?

P/P does not have access to a lot of stealth, this thread isn’t about daggers, and I know you run D/D and P/P, so this really doesn’t apply to that tactic.

Please stay on topic.

This thread would not of been made if there was not a problem with Pistols.

I am on topic. You can’t discuss pistols’ supposed weaknesses by ignoring traits, other weapons, and utilities. No weapon set exists in a vacuum.

Unless you don’t run with a second weapon set. Only pistols? No Dagger/Dagger or Sword/Dagger to compensate for lack of stealth or condition removal (respectively)? Not very wise.

Pistol’s are about DPS and blinding field combos, not stealthing. That’s what utilities are for. If you’re not using stealth to its fullest, then you shouldn’t be running as a glass cannon with pistols. That’s just asking to die painfully.

Pistols hit hard and can blind but have the TRADEOFF of not stealthing you. It’s about choice, not about having a single weapon set that does absolutely everything.

CrazyAce.3842:

Daecollo.9578:

CrazyAce.3842:

Daecollo.9578:

Sounds like your fighting PvE mobs who don’t move.

Try using P/P against a mesmer who uses confusion or a guardian/warrior who abuses retaliation, you will kill yourself faster then he can kill you.

Those are very few and far between.

I don’t do sPVP much with anything but my warrior.

In WvW, people melt under my pistol barrages. If a player has lots of retaliation, I don’t shoot them. Duh. You shouldn’t be attacking someone with retaliation up unless you can strip the boon first. Or unless you know you can afford to eat the damage that will be reflected back at you.

Same with confusion. You should be running or stealthing if you’ve got confusion until it wears off, unless you can cleanse it. (Thief DOES have weapon abilities and utilities for that.)

Does no one use their brain when fighting? Or do you all just spam your favorite attacks?

P/P does not have access to a lot of stealth, this thread isn’t about daggers, and I know you run D/D and P/P, so this really doesn’t apply to that tactic.

Please stay on topic.

This thread would not of been made if there was not a problem with Pistols.

I am on topic. You can’t discuss pistols’ supposed weaknesses by ignoring traits, other weapons, and utilities. No weapon set exists in a vacuum.

Unless you don’t run with a second weapon set. Only pistols? No Dagger/Dagger or Sword/Dagger to compensate for lack of stealth or condition removal (respectively)? Not very wise.

Pistol’s are about DPS and blinding field combos, not stealthing. That’s what utilities are for. If you’re not using stealth to its fullest, then you shouldn’t be running as a glass cannon with pistols. That’s just asking to die painfully.

Pistols hit hard and can blind but have the TRADEOFF of not stealthing you. It’s about choice, not about having a single weapon set that does absolutely everything.

D/D can have blind (AND STEALTH) as well, but also do lots of burst damage…
S/D can have blind (AND STEALTH) as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
S/P can have blind as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
D/P can have blind (AND STEALTH) as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
P/D can blind (AND STEALTH) as well, and do lots of burst damage…
P/P has blind, but does little to NO damage after they use it… because the autoattack does next to nothing and they need unload to do damage, which does less damage then sword/dagger autoattack.

Please think a little.

Daecollo.9578:

D/D can have blind as well, but also do lots of burst damage…
S/P can have blind as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
D/P can have blind (AND STEALTH) as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
P/D can blind (AND STEALTH) as well, and do lots of burst damage…
P/P has blind, but does little to NO damage after they use it…

Please think a little.

I am. It’s you who’s not thinking.

If you’re using pistols, you should trait for it. As long as it’s traited, they hit hard and refill your initiative on critical hits.

Blinding is a defensive skill. Not an offensive one.

When I blind combo field I can typically get 2 bursts out of Pistol 3 if I get lucky with my crits. Even better if I stealth with Blinding Power in the combo field, followed by the stealth burst of Pistol 1, followed by another Pistol 5.

I only have issues with that strategy if I get stunned/dazed at beyond 900 range, or stacked with confusion.

Typically though I can get away with just spamming Pistol 3. Unless I get confusion stacks or the person has retaliation, they go down fast.

P/P has it’s weaknesses, but no more than any other weapon set from any other class. Anything else is just people complaining. You just need to use them right, with the right traits and Sigils.

CrazyAce.3842:

Daecollo.9578:

D/D can have blind as well, but also do lots of burst damage…
S/P can have blind as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
D/P can have blind (AND STEALTH) as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
P/D can blind (AND STEALTH) as well, and do lots of burst damage…
P/P has blind, but does little to NO damage after they use it…

Please think a little.

I am. It’s you who’s not thinking.

If you’re using pistols, you should trait for it. As long as it’s traited, they hit hard and refill your initiative on critical hits.

Blinding is a defensive skill. Not an offensive one.

When I blind combo field I can typically get 2 bursts out of Pistol 3 if I get lucky with my crits. Even better if I stealth with Blinding Power in the combo field, followed by the stealth burst of Pistol 1, followed by another Pistol 5.

I only have issues with that strategy if I get stunned/dazed at beyond 900 range, or stacked with confusion.

Typically though I can get away with just spamming Pistol 3. Unless I get confusion stacks or the person has retaliation, they go down fast.

P/P has it’s weaknesses, but no more than any other weapon set from any other class. Anything else is just people complaining. You just need to use them right, with the right traits and Sigils.

Um, that trait only procs every second, are you still in beta? that trait/skill is kind of useless due to the fact that it has a 1 second GCD… where pistols fire VERY fast.

Look at the trait “Cloaked in Shadow.” it makes D/D Burst Thief Amazing… and gives constant blinds to the opponent.

Would you rather have Blinds/Lots of damage, or blinds and no damage?

You do realize that blind only works if your opponent is attacking, and most people can only attack once per second…

The blind combo field is nice, but its VERY short and at most your only preventing 1-3 attacks…

Blinding someone over/over is really nice, except for the nice fact that blinds don’t stack on eachother, and your attacks are faster… so if you blind someone 5 times in a row, you may only prevent ONE attack…

CrazyAce.3842:

I use D/D and P/P.

I wouldn’t change pistols in any way. They work perfectly fine as is. They hit hard, and the ability to blind at will makes them the ultimate ranged weapon for burst thieves. They don’t have any kind of AoE damaging ability like the Shortbow, but that’s to be expected. If you could use Pistols with an AoE, it would be overpowered, plain and simple.

I love P/P and wouldn’t change a thing. They are strong and almost the perfect single-target ranged weapon (I compare them to the Warrior’s Rifle in that way, though they don’t pierce).

I am 0/30/30/0/10 and I can spam 4 P/P shots in a row when I get ample crits (and I typically do), 6 shots if I use a few stealthing abilities to regen my initiative. Most people in WvW run with glass cannons, and I can cut down most people with around 3-4 bursts of Pistol 3 (taking into account the fact that most people dodge and/or heal when I’m shooting them). Squishy thieves and light-armor classes can sometimes go down in 1 or 2 if I get lucky with all crits or something (my crit % is 55%, without buffs or food).

If pistols were buffed, by build would be incredibly OP. Not that I’d have a huge problem with that. I’m just warning you guys.

I’m running something similar (10-30-30-0-0, grabbed mug and been using it as a kind of semi-burst finisher combined with unload, i guess you picked trickery for thrill of the crime which is a good option too) and i share your opinion, p/p doesn’t need a damage buff, on the other hand i believe BP needs a slight buff, either slightly lowr its cost, either slightly increase its duration, and make it tick faster inside the aoe.

Also there is vital shot… The only good part about this skill comes from its ability to do a combo finisher 100% of the time at a lesser cost.

On a side note i think most thieves underestimate how powerful Fluid Strikes is, you don’t lose that much dps dropping the entire deadly arts line, and acrobatics synergises way better with a p/p build to me.

The only thieves i saw running a p/p build were obviously using the usual 30/30/something and they didn’t deal more damage than i did, on the other hand they had a lot less survivability options.

CrazyAce.3842:

Daecollo.9578:

D/D can have blind as well, but also do lots of burst damage…
S/P can have blind as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
D/P can have blind (AND STEALTH) as well, but also do lots of passive damage…
P/D can blind (AND STEALTH) as well, and do lots of burst damage…
P/P has blind, but does little to NO damage after they use it…

Please think a little.

I am. It’s you who’s not thinking.

If you’re using pistols, you should trait for it. As long as it’s traited, they hit hard and refill your initiative on critical hits.

Blinding is a defensive skill. Not an offensive one.

When I blind combo field I can typically get 2 bursts out of Pistol 3 if I get lucky with my crits. Even better if I stealth with Blinding Power in the combo field, followed by the stealth burst of Pistol 1, followed by another Pistol 5.

I only have issues with that strategy if I get stunned/dazed at beyond 900 range, or stacked with confusion.

Typically though I can get away with just spamming Pistol 3. Unless I get confusion stacks or the person has retaliation, they go down fast.

P/P has it’s weaknesses, but no more than any other weapon set from any other class. Anything else is just people complaining. You just need to use them right, with the right traits and Sigils.

False, P/P has a single very dramatic and very obviously unintended weakness (Vital Shot’s painfully slow firing speed relative to its activation timer and offensive specs), layered with lots of individually less significant weaknesses: the overly-situational Body Shot, so-so Unload damage, mediocre traits, 900 yd range, lack of cripple/knockback, and lack of Stealth access. All of these things end in a recipe of fail.

All in all, MH Pistol in general tends to do about 75% of the sustained damage it should do, mostly because of Vital Shot. Additionally, its utility is arguably weaker than any other set in the Thief’s repertoire. Both of these issues are somewhat diminished through carefully optimized traiting/gearing, but that does not mean Pistols are fine. Anyone arguing otherwise is blind as a bat- its problems really couldn’t be more obvious. A significant boost to Vital Shot to make it capable of maintaining 8 or 9 bleeds like it’s supposed to instead of a mere 5 would be a huge start.

Its not the firing rate, Pistol Channel time IS actually 1/2 second, just like daggers, its the “refire rate.”

Thief Pistols have a 0.75 second REFIRE rate, so after they fire that 1/2 channel attack, they have to wait 0.75 seconds to fire again.

Warrior Rifles have a 3/4 channel attack, but they only have to wait 0.50 seconds to fire again.

This is why Rifle/Pistol fire at almost the same rate. (rifles seem to be 0.1 seconds faster.)

Actually, the refire rate for rifle might be even faster then that, maybe even 0.30-0.40 seconds.

Daecollo.9578:

Its not the firing rate, Pistol Channel time IS actually 1/2 second, just like daggers, its the “refire rate.”

Thief Pistols have a 0.75 second REFIRE rate, so after they fire that 1/2 channel attack, they have to wait 0.75 seconds to fire again.

Warrior Rifles have a 3/4 channel attack, but they only have to wait 0.50 seconds to fire again.

This is why Rifle/Pistol fire at almost the same rate. (rifles seem to be 0.1 seconds faster.)

Actually, the refire rate for rifle might be even faster then that, maybe even 0.30-0.40 seconds.

Yes, I realize that. That’s why it’s obvious that it isn’t working as intended. The pistol was obviously meant to fire faster than the rifle but due to the difference in the recovery period between the two it doesn’t.

Because Vital Shot’s damage and bleed duration were calibrated under the assumption that its recast would be about 30-40% faster than it actually is, it is currently an extremely gimpy autoattack and is the main reason that Pistols just feel weak. I actually think this problem is weapon based rather than profession based, as Engineer pistol is the same way, and Longbows for both Rangers and Warriors fire very slowly and thus have weaker-than-expected #1 skills. Curiously, only rifles seem about right.

Come to think of it, the Thief’s Shortbow, while being a solid weapon in general, has weaker than expected damage on the #1 as well.

Einlanzer.1627:

Daecollo.9578:

Its not the firing rate, Pistol Channel time IS actually 1/2 second, just like daggers, its the “refire rate.”

Thief Pistols have a 0.75 second REFIRE rate, so after they fire that 1/2 channel attack, they have to wait 0.75 seconds to fire again.

Warrior Rifles have a 3/4 channel attack, but they only have to wait 0.50 seconds to fire again.

This is why Rifle/Pistol fire at almost the same rate. (rifles seem to be 0.1 seconds faster.)

Actually, the refire rate for rifle might be even faster then that, maybe even 0.30-0.40 seconds.

Yes, I realize that. That’s why it’s obvious that it isn’t working as intended. The pistol was obviously meant to fire faster than the rifle but due to the difference in the recovery period between the two it doesn’t.

Because Vital Shot’s damage and bleed duration were calibrated under the assumption that its recast would be about 30-40% faster than it actually is, it is currently an extremely gimpy autoattack and is the main reason that Pistols just feel weak. I actually think this problem is weapon based rather than profession based, as Engineer pistol is the same way, and Longbows for both Rangers and Warriors fire very slowly and thus have weaker-than-expected #1 skills. Curiously, only rifles seem about right.

Come to think of it, the Thief’s Shortbow, while being a solid weapon in general, has weaker than expected damage on the #1 as well.

Well, we use “2” for short bows damage, if Pistol had a decent “2” attack we would probably use that as well.

Forget Vital shot.
Lettuce be real tea. It’s all on body shot.

Edit: Daecollo ninja’d me.
Einlanzer forget the autoattacks. Srsly.

Daecollo.9578:

Einlanzer.1627:

Daecollo.9578:

Its not the firing rate, Pistol Channel time IS actually 1/2 second, just like daggers, its the “refire rate.”

Thief Pistols have a 0.75 second REFIRE rate, so after they fire that 1/2 channel attack, they have to wait 0.75 seconds to fire again.

Warrior Rifles have a 3/4 channel attack, but they only have to wait 0.50 seconds to fire again.

This is why Rifle/Pistol fire at almost the same rate. (rifles seem to be 0.1 seconds faster.)

Actually, the refire rate for rifle might be even faster then that, maybe even 0.30-0.40 seconds.

Yes, I realize that. That’s why it’s obvious that it isn’t working as intended. The pistol was obviously meant to fire faster than the rifle but due to the difference in the recovery period between the two it doesn’t.

Because Vital Shot’s damage and bleed duration were calibrated under the assumption that its recast would be about 30-40% faster than it actually is, it is currently an extremely gimpy autoattack and is the main reason that Pistols just feel weak. I actually think this problem is weapon based rather than profession based, as Engineer pistol is the same way, and Longbows for both Rangers and Warriors fire very slowly and thus have weaker-than-expected #1 skills. Curiously, only rifles seem about right.

Come to think of it, the Thief’s Shortbow, while being a solid weapon in general, has weaker than expected damage on the #1 as well.

Well, we use “2” for short bows damage, if Pistol had a decent “2” attack we would probably use that as well.

Right, but that’s not what I imagine the design intent to have been due to the way the Initiative system works. The #1 skill should be capable of providing significant DPS by itself, supplemented by tactical use of the other skills.

ensoriki.5789:

Forget Vital shot.
Lettuce be real tea. It’s all on body shot.

Edit: Daecollo ninja’d me.
Einlanzer forget the autoattacks. Srsly.

Nope. Body Shot may need tweaks, but, right or wrong, it’s mostly working as intended while Vital Shot clearly is not. I’m not the kind of person that always insists that I know everything, but in this case I’m quite confident about being right.

Actually, I believe Pistols Refire or Reuse or Recast should be reduced Significantly, which would improve both skills.

But I also believe that Unload/Body Shot/Vital Shot ontop of that needs a damage increase.

Engineers attacks may be as slow as thieves, but kitten, they hurt like the rifles.

Never had more fun playing a duel pistol game than DC Universe (if you dont count devil may cry 1)

what did these have? mobility.
Dive backwards while shooting ~ unload
Lunge forwards while shooting (+stun) ~ possible change to head shot
Point blank launches (lifts/knockbacks) ~ change to 2

Regardless, duel pistols needs to be able to move and shoot more comfortably. Either give dodges/leaps to certain skills (with or without evades… with or without the use of endurance) or increase the firing radius so the player is not relegated to side strafing or slow back-pedaling simply to keep their target in front of them and able to be fired on (the change to bow 3 for example allows you to run from your target and still fire on them)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~blind field is great and all, but it requires you to stand still to fully utilize… which is never a good idea for a thief (especially when it doesnt even block ranged attacks like its utility counterpart)

i have more ideas i may or may not share on how to improve duel pistol game play ~ these are just some starters for people/devs to chew on.

#worsttheifna @Kistra the Cat

but p/p is fun to use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibLOfRnkmrk&feature=youtu.be

emanius.9851:

but p/p is fun to use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibLOfRnkmrk&feature=youtu.be

Yeah, so I can do 1200 less damage then sword autoattack and spend 5 initative!

Cut all my winded crap and tl;dr’d it.
- Autoattacks and damage are important
- P/P is the most immobile thief set, because of Bodyshot/Unload
- P/P will continue to be a sitting duck relative to other sets if 2 or 3 do not change.
- Can change body shot, but the above remains true
- Change body shot and P/P and P/D will be better off.
- 10% dmg trait for a weapon like the pistol is stupid.

Vital Shot, Change bleed on #1 to vulnerability.

Unload, Remove a boon on last hit

Body shot, I don’t know

Black Powder, Increase duration by 1 second or remove 1 initiative cost

Keep damage the same.

Vital Shot, Increase base damage to 165, increase refire rate by 25%. (from 134. +31 damage.)
Body shot, Increase base damage to 457, increase refire rate by 25%. (from 168. +289 damage.)
Unload, Increase base damage to 1060, increase refire rate by 25%. (from 808, +252 damage.)
Head Shot, Increase base damage to 507, increase refire rate by 25%. (from 87, +420 damage.)
Black Powder, Increase base damage to 256, increase refire rate by 25%. (from 87, +169 damage.)

Black Powder should do at least 25% more damage then autoattack, but mostly a utility skill.

Head Shot should do decent damage, it costs a lot of initiative.

Body Shot now does 15% less damage then heartseeker, but has a little more range then it as well.

Unload does 12% less damage then warrior’s volley.

P/P is fixed, it now actually hurts people instead of being a nerf gun like all other weapons in the game.

Head Shot/Bodyshot/Black Powder not dealing damage is stupid, your shooting someone with a gun, it should hurt, and its not like they have much range difference between Infiltrator’s Strike and Heartseeker.

Black Powder is pretty much a melee attack, but has 87 damage? What are you smoking, you know how much it hurts blasting someone point blank with a gun, filled with black EXPLOSIVE powder?

Fun Fact:
Warrior Rifle has a 0.50 Refire Rate.
Pistol has a 0.75 Refire Rate.

Need to up the attack speed with pistols for one.

Second, Add a way to enter stealth (like cloak and dagger) Even if it has to have a positional requirement or something.

Give it one Aoe Shot, “Buckshot” or something.

On another note, while you give pistols a very much needed aoe skill. Also Give Shortbows a useful single target skill, or at least change the way the shortbow #2 skill works so that the detonate is triggered by a different button so we can fire it off faster.

I would like to see a wider variety of skills for weapons. If I’m running a condition build, I can have bleed as it is now(kind of like to see these things last a bit longer) or if I’m running a power/crit build I can have my #1 pistol be a style a bit more along those lines without having conditions.

Really, this goes for all weapons. D/D you have auto and #2 if you are power oriented and if you are condition you pretty much have death blossom for bleeds, auto does add in a poison but that duration is only refreshed, not stacked. I’d like to have a wider variety of skills that can add in more bleeds or more vulnerabilities.

I already get very good results running my p/p build in spvp / WvW, with all due respect i’d be more cautious with all those buff suggestions, i find we would end up with an OP weapon set…

I’d prefer we get some tweaks like some of us mentionned rather than overall damage and speed attack buff…

I love P/Pfor the looks, but its damage is truly pitiful.

All of those who claim P/P is powerful or balanced need to really open their eyes and test other weapons. The perfect P/P build atm, will always lag behind the perfect S/P, S/D, D/D builds. Unload feels fun and awesome, as long as you don’t compare the numbers.

It has been proved that Sword auto attack does more damage than Unload. In pvp, fight a more competent opponent and he will roll towards you while you unload.

Aside from the other suggestions, i would love to see Vital shot using both pistols, like a slower version of Unload

Daecollo.9578:

Black Powder is pretty much a melee attack, but has 87 damage? What are you smoking, you know how much it hurts blasting someone point blank with a gun, filled with black EXPLOSIVE powder?

THIS, I really agree with.

Black Powder should do more damage the closer you are to your target.

Body Shot – 3 Initiative
Leap away from your opponent, firing an explosive round that applies 1x bleeding (4s) and 1x weakness (3s) to enemies near your target. 900 range, 300 range rear-directional leap.

Black Powder – 5 Initiative
Largely stays the same, but a small increase to the smoke fields’ size (200 wouldn’t be unreasonable, especially considering it’s a PB-skill) but the damage should directed as a 150 range PBAoE, not a projectile.

And lastly, fix Vital Shot.
Also, Pistol/Pistol build needs to have access to Piercing. Period.

Aervius.2016:

Body Shot – 3 Initiative
Leap away from your opponent, firing an explosive round that applies 1x bleeding (4s) and 1x weakness (3s) to enemies near your target. 900 range, 300 range rear-directional leap.

A backward leap would be an awesome utility indeed, even more considering that pistols are way more dependant on mobility rather than stealth imo.

Now i still think piercing would make p/p way too powerfull, it’s true it would help especially against classes protected by freaking bots (rangers-mesmers-necros), but if you really wish piercing on pistols then the piercing has to be reduced, 5 targets is way too much for multiple unloads.

I think Ricochet makes more sense than Piercing, it just still needs a bit of a boost to be useful. I think instead of being a flat 20% it should be 75/50/25. The same is true of Dancing Dagger, I really don’t know what their thinking is here.