Guild Wars 2

So with the multitude of reveal skills now at other classes’ disposal, isn’t it about time we got a way to counter it?

I’m thinking a trait or something that allows blinding powder (the deception utility) to remove reveal and stealth on use. The reason I’m thinking about this skill is that it’s a 40s cooldown vs the 20-30s cooldown of most reveal skills, which would make it good when revealed once but not twice so it wouldn’t remove the point of reveal completely.

This has an obvious side effect: double backstabs. Triple maybe, if you’re lucky with improv. Either this can be left as is if the damage is deemed fair, or more likely reveal can be split into 2 types: self reveal and externally applied reveal. Last I checked, mesmer and thief stealth had separate icons on your bar, so this shouldn’t be difficult to code.

Make it so thief can only remove externally applied reveal and you still have the same burst etc, but there would be some counter-play to lock on etc. Doing this would also make stealth trap less of a middle finger to the class than it currently is, whilst still leaving you open to be trapped multiple times if you’re dumb.

Thoughts?

What about if reveal could just be as any other condition? So we could remove it bringing condition removal? I don’t think it could be to OP since thief is already weak vs conditions and wasting the few cond removal we have just for 1 reveal might not always be the best idea.

Kolly.9872:

What about if reveal could just be as any other condition? So we could remove it bringing condition removal? I don’t think it could be to OP since thief is already weak vs conditions and wasting the few cond removal we have just for 1 reveal might not always be the best idea.

I rarely stealth and only once in awhile for daze, I’d be fine with that if it were low on priority, I’d rather clear other conditions first.

How about we instead just get some non-stealth-playable options or better synergy while revealed via effects like RT for other stats or benefits?

DeceiverX.8361:

How about we instead just get some non-stealth-playable options or better synergy while revealed via effects like RT for other stats or benefits?

i am pretty sure many people that main thief class type actually play it because of stealth

i can’t talk for everyone but i might as well warrior or revenant if it is not about backstabbing and stealthing around

as far as revealed goes, it really needs to change and have some costs and not just brainless aoe spam or even better, revealed applied by enemy should be switched to spotted – enemies can see your silhuette but you are still in stealth

the way revealed applied by enemy atm is just too punishing for low investment and low CDs; imagine if each thief steal would lock half of enemy mechanics…. yeah~

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

We need a trait that gives us resistance while revealed (for the whole duration of reveal).

lel kappa https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escapist%E2%80%99s_Absolution

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

someone didn’t play the very first couple betas.

not having reveal was completely broken. you think PU mesmers are bad? you’ve seen nothing.

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

someone didn’t play the very first couple betas.

not having reveal was completely broken. you think PU mesmers are bad? you’ve seen nothing.

We’re talking within the context of Thief, a profession that should be immune to Revealed. PU Mesmer should keep their Reveal but remove it from Thief’s skills.

Besides, are you responding to my post where I said that this is for PvE? If so, then what’s OP in PvE?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

someone didn’t play the very first couple betas.

not having reveal was completely broken. you think PU mesmers are bad? you’ve seen nothing.

We’re talking within the context of Thief, a profession that should be immune to Revealed. PU Mesmer should keep their Reveal but remove it from Thief’s skills.

Besides, are you responding to my post where I said that this is for PvE? If so, then what’s OP in PvE?

dude, revealed is a mechanic that was created exclusively because of thieves. and “oh, just break PvE, it’s ok” isn’t a solution.

can you imagine a new thief playing PvE, enjoying the lol permastealth of spamming CnD on monsters without any punishment, then going to PvP and, lo and behold, there’s this whole other mechanic that completely changes the way the profession is played is just thrown at them without warning? that’s terrible game design. it’s one thing for skills to be weaker or stronger depending on game mode (PvE revealed is only 3 seconds, PvP is 4), it’s another to outright remove a whole mechanic because you don’t know how to play with it.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

stealth gyro has a cast animation, and a shockwave-like effect (like mass invis) that you can dodge.

like i said, i don’t mind being outplayed. if someone foresees my plays and counters it, that’s cool. it’s when i have no way to defend myself from it that i call bullkitten.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

So with the multitude of reveal skills now at other classes’ disposal, isn’t it about time we got a way to counter it?

I’m thinking a trait or something that allows blinding powder (the deception utility) to remove reveal and stealth on use. The reason I’m thinking about this skill is that it’s a 40s cooldown vs the 20-30s cooldown of most reveal skills, which would make it good when revealed once but not twice so it wouldn’t remove the point of reveal completely.

This has an obvious side effect: double backstabs. Triple maybe, if you’re lucky with improv. Either this can be left as is if the damage is deemed fair, or more likely reveal can be split into 2 types: self reveal and externally applied reveal. Last I checked, mesmer and thief stealth had separate icons on your bar, so this shouldn’t be difficult to code.

Make it so thief can only remove externally applied reveal and you still have the same burst etc, but there would be some counter-play to lock on etc. Doing this would also make stealth trap less of a middle finger to the class than it currently is, whilst still leaving you open to be trapped multiple times if you’re dumb.

Thoughts?

I’ll try to say this politely. But no absolutely not. The best counter play to reveal is forcing your opponent to waste his reveal on a trivial stealth not your key stealth
i.e. Stealthing defensively to break combat or cleanse condis
Stealthing in Sr which usually is also defensive but it has a huge tell and it’s common knowledge it’s a long stealth
It becomes a game of baiting people out and this is not just about reveal its about everything if you know other profession you can tel what they’re runnin especially in pvp matches where you run into an opponent several times it becomes a chess game and I feel like that’s often lacking is players thinking in that manner and instead want things to come to them instead of out playing their opponent not just bc your class is op

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

someone didn’t play the very first couple betas.

not having reveal was completely broken. you think PU mesmers are bad? you’ve seen nothing.

We’re talking within the context of Thief, a profession that should be immune to Revealed. PU Mesmer should keep their Reveal but remove it from Thief’s skills.

Besides, are you responding to my post where I said that this is for PvE? If so, then what’s OP in PvE?

dude, revealed is a mechanic that was created exclusively because of thieves. and “oh, just break PvE, it’s ok” isn’t a solution.

can you imagine a new thief playing PvE, enjoying the lol permastealth of spamming CnD on monsters without any punishment, then going to PvP and, lo and behold, there’s this whole other mechanic that completely changes the way the profession is played is just thrown at them without warning? that’s terrible game design. it’s one thing for skills to be weaker or stronger depending on game mode (PvE revealed is only 3 seconds, PvP is 4), it’s another to outright remove a whole mechanic because you don’t know how to play with it.

That’s no different from a martial artist who has the ability to kill or physically disable an opponent but cannot use those skills in a tournament setting.

This is why I mentioned that if they want to make things fair, keep it in PvP where it belongs.

A Thief who spams CnD and remain in stealth loses a lot of DPS and it’s a risk that Thief is willing to take — why deny it? What can a Thief possibly break if they perma-stealth in PvE? Besides, if perma-stealth becomes game breaking in certain part of PvE, then have the mobs in the area have a revealing skill — there’s really no valid or logical reason to make it across the board. It’s was simply a lazy solution.

If thieves are supposedly the masters of stealth, why don’t we get reveal traits/skills.
Secondly, why do “stealth traps” only affect the enemy and not everyone?

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

stealth gyro has a cast animation, and a shockwave-like effect (like mass invis) that you can dodge.

like i said, i don’t mind being outplayed. if someone foresees my plays and counters it, that’s cool. it’s when i have no way to defend myself from it that i call bullkitten.

I totally agree with that. If they were all dodgeable, that would be alright, but the problem with sic’em and lock on is that by the time you know they’re running it you’re already revealed. That needs toning down or a (single) counter skill imo.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

stealth gyro has a cast animation, and a shockwave-like effect (like mass invis) that you can dodge.

like i said, i don’t mind being outplayed. if someone foresees my plays and counters it, that’s cool. it’s when i have no way to defend myself from it that i call bullkitten.

Ohohohoh, you’re lucky you’re said this in the presence of people who are pro thief. I suggest you re-read that last sentence and try to figure out whats wrong about it

epoc.7941:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

So with the multitude of reveal skills now at other classes’ disposal, isn’t it about time we got a way to counter it?

I’m thinking a trait or something that allows blinding powder (the deception utility) to remove reveal and stealth on use. The reason I’m thinking about this skill is that it’s a 40s cooldown vs the 20-30s cooldown of most reveal skills, which would make it good when revealed once but not twice so it wouldn’t remove the point of reveal completely.

This has an obvious side effect: double backstabs. Triple maybe, if you’re lucky with improv. Either this can be left as is if the damage is deemed fair, or more likely reveal can be split into 2 types: self reveal and externally applied reveal. Last I checked, mesmer and thief stealth had separate icons on your bar, so this shouldn’t be difficult to code.

Make it so thief can only remove externally applied reveal and you still have the same burst etc, but there would be some counter-play to lock on etc. Doing this would also make stealth trap less of a middle finger to the class than it currently is, whilst still leaving you open to be trapped multiple times if you’re dumb.

Thoughts?

I’ll try to say this politely. But no absolutely not. The best counter play to reveal is forcing your opponent to waste his reveal on a trivial stealth not your key stealth
i.e. Stealthing defensively to break combat or cleanse condis
Stealthing in Sr which usually is also defensive but it has a huge tell and it’s common knowledge it’s a long stealth
It becomes a game of baiting people out and this is not just about reveal its about everything if you know other profession you can tel what they’re runnin especially in pvp matches where you run into an opponent several times it becomes a chess game and I feel like that’s often lacking is players thinking in that manner and instead want things to come to them instead of out playing their opponent not just bc your class is op

To me, that argument is like saying that you’re going to get bit by a dog in 5s, but you can choose where you get kittenoosing to get bit in the hand as it’s not vital is not counter-play, that’s damage mitigation. Might be a difference of opinion there though.

I know that technically any attack can be mitigated by foreseeing and dodging it. That is also true for other classes however, so why can they have absolute counters to certain things (invuln when CC’d and about to be burst, diamond skin etc) but we can’t have one way of cleansing reveal? I’m asking for one reveal cleanse on a higher cooldown than reveal skills, that’s only available to say SA players, and that can’t be used to remove self applied reveal. I don’t think that would be game breaking really.

(Don’t take my post as aggressive btw, it’s not meant like that, i’m just tired and can’t find the right words today.)