What is the most skillful thief build?

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

Some love for the D/D players? Some trolling responses for P/P? Lets hear it, boys.

(edited by rennlc.7346)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Urejt.5648

Urejt.5648

Most think it is dp, but in reality it is staff due to huge knowledge and training required to evade and blind every single enemy class.

Yo Hooj Jest Pole

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Deathrubber.3861

Deathrubber.3861

There are no skillfull builds, its the player who brings the skill. What u meant to ask is what thief build got the highest skill cap and it is clearly dp with bound. But as this is a meta system the question is irrelevant, since there is only 1 build per profession that sets the highest skillcap (metabuild). Sad, but true

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

How is bound d/p highst skill cap? With shadow arts or acro you pretty much faceroll dodge/stealth.

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

gw1 – healing signet/frenzy/charge

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Deathrubber.3861

Deathrubber.3861

spam dodge and stealth do not require high skill

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: kash.9213

kash.9213

spam dodge and stealth do not require high skill

Let’s just have thieves rooted in place once combat starts and press one key that cycles through all of our skills and utilities, then we’ll have a proper class to showcase our skill.

Kash
NSP

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Lexander.4579

Lexander.4579

ghost trap thief is the highest skill build

Alex Shadowdagger – Thief – Blacktide

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Mahkno.7593

Mahkno.7593

off-hand pistol. no main-hand, no swap weapon.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Of all the builds I have played, hybrid non-stealth Interrupt build requires the most skill. Playing it requires intimate knowledge of each class’s skill wind ups, requires managing of enemy boons and is outright punishing when mistakes are made. It is devastating to any enemy that doesn’t know what they are tangling with though.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

i like s/p myself i love hitting people with pistol whip who think it easy to dodge. but what i like most of s/p are how drawn out the fights are with out ever having to straight up disengage

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Ario.8964

Ario.8964

I personally find s/d and d/d builds to be in the higher skill range due to how underpowered they are and how much timing they require to be effective. Lack of on demand stealth means CnD has to be timed, prepared for, and positioned accordingly. Plus the fact that you have to learn to play effectively outside of stealth without easy blind application means all the more skill. Is it effective? not anymore really so when it comes to effective highest skill I’d go staff because on it’s own it has 0 stealth and relies on well timed dodges and blinds to survive.

[Teef] Dragonbrand Thief and Engi main www.twitch.tv/ariodoesgaming and Ario Does Gaming on Youtube!

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

IMO the Build that requires the most skill to pull off is Full Signet D/D. This is the build you run just to see

  • Playerx did 6,525 Damage with Cloak And Dagger
  • PlayerX did 20,525 Damage with Backstab
    In your combat log.

The Build has an unforgivable amount horrid weaknesses but if you land a hit on pretty much anything it will crash them to desktop. that’s just how scary seeing 20,525 damage pop up above your head is right before you die.

(I should not that amount of damage is off the top of my head based on WvW having full food, stone and banner buffs. It may be off by 1 or 2k)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Wargameur.6950

Wargameur.6950

The one with over 200 ping rate and 50 packet loss. Most unforgivable build in my opinion.

It requires the skill to see the future…and beyond

main ~ Esper Jace (Thief )/ Ellundril Jiluan
(mesmer ) – EU [Teef]

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Cobrakon.3108

Cobrakon.3108

Any build that doesn’t use shadowstep, agility sigil, and the evade poison utilities with these wep sets Power d/d, s/d, Staff (without perma evade.)

there is probably more, just cant think of it atm.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: kash.9213

kash.9213

Any build that doesn’t use shadowstep, agility sigil, and the evade poison utilities with these wep sets Power d/d, s/d, Staff (without perma evade.)

there is probably more, just cant think of it atm.

How does any of that together reveal an unskilled thief build and what sets of weapons, traits, and gear would you compare any of that to?

Kash
NSP

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

IMO the Build that requires the most skill to pull off is Full Signet D/D. This is the build you run just to see

  • Playerx did 6,525 Damage with Cloak And Dagger
  • PlayerX did 20,525 Damage with Backstab
    In your combat log.

The Build has an unforgivable amount horrid weaknesses but if you land a hit on pretty much anything it will crash them to desktop. that’s just how scary seeing 20,525 damage pop up above your head is right before you die.

(I should not that amount of damage is off the top of my head based on WvW having full food, stone and banner buffs. It may be off by 1 or 2k)

say on avr it more like 12 – 15k but yeah you could get it that high if you tried hard enough.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

Skill is based more on what you are fighting and what tools you have to fight it with. For that matter, the builds requiring the most skill to play are inevitably going to be the worst builds—because winning with a bad build requires more skill assuming equal skill with your opponent.

More accurately, I think we could rate the weapon sets with the most potential in terms of damage, defense, and utility. Each category gets its’ own point rating. You also give points based on the utilities and traits chosen.

Damage number should be based on the total maximum damage possible over 10 seconds. Defense should be a counter of block/evade/invuln abilities available (irrespective of energy/initiative costs) with 3 points for invuln, 2 points for evade, and 1 point for blocks/reflects. For utility the same point system would apply. Boons applied/stolen/corrupted are worth 1 point per. Condition removal is 1 point per. Stun/daze is worth 1 point. Teleports and stealth are worth 1 point. Self generated field combinations are worth 1 point per combo.

It needs some refining but that is how I would go about determining roughly which requires the most “skill” while still being useful.

Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Thief (Daredevil)
Commandant of Pistol-Dagger and Apex Predator

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

According to this post, the hardest/skilled build for thief is no weapons, no gear, no utilities cause is the worst one at killing LUL.

Skilled builds arent the ones that require more skill to win fights, but the ones that require more skill to master. So the ones that have more depth, and not the ones that suck the most should be discussed

M I L K B O I S

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

I don’t see why it can’t be a mix of both.

If the most “deep” build also has the lowest barrier of entry and can carry bad players, does that really justify an association to said set to the skill level of the player? No, because then there’s no trend to associate with.

A player who can win with fewer resources than his opponent is inherently the better player, because with the same or more resources, he would win otherwise and thus be intrinsically more skilled because the variables would be even.

The matter is defining what those resources are and their context in any given encounter. Conceptual hurdles and interactions between any two opponents will also vary based on each others’ builds and the likes. Defining universally what it takes to be “more skilled” by just a given weapon set combination is pretty much impossible as such.

What we can measure is the “skill” of the player given fixed contexts when compared to other players. Under scrutiny, there is typically a crude association which can be made between individual skill of the player and the viability of his chosen methodology when compared to that of the highest level of play, and then cross-comparing it to his peers at the level of play he is playing at and then doing further analysis based on the rated difficulty : effectiveness ratio of said method.

It also comes down to exploiting weaknesses and what is ultimately the amount of skill disparity between the players; the bigger the disparity, the more likely the “weaker”-method player is able to win, because he’s playing better. Those at the highest performance echelons will recognize the inherent flaws in the weaker methods and of course play for the most effective regardless of the barrier of entry, since they’re at the top and the disparity between them and their opponents is extremely low as to make non-viable methods simply not work well enough.

In the case of the thief, looking at the average case, sets involving the OH dagger for example may require more skill as such to play adequately – or to play as effectively as a given opponent playing something typically more effective – when compared to kits with OH pistol. This reflects back to the statement that typically, the player must have a larger skill advantage to perform just as well as the other when using a weaker method.

It’s paradoxical in the sense that once the weak methods peak in their acceptable performance at a given echelon of play, there’s no advancement thereafter such that it’s impossible to prove the player is inherently better because the variables of the methods differ. Even if that skill gap is very tight or even favoring the weaker-method player when against peak-level or above opponents, there’s virtually no way to prove it unless he was to win a fight. In which case, the assertion about the peak is either wrong, or the player using the weak method is simply astronomically better than the other. More than likely, it’s the former (I.E. why the meta changes), rather than seeing huge upsets where professional-level players start losing to random no-names.

So I think the better question to be asking is not what the most skill-intensive kit is, but rather, for a given context (level of play, opponent, environment, etc.) what the most impressive kit to be playing is.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

So I think the better question to be asking is not what the most skill-intensive kit is, but rather, for a given context (level of play, opponent, environment, etc.) what the most impressive kit to be playing is.

But what if I want to say the most impressive kit to be playing in the given context is the most skillful and/or skill-intensive?

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

It’s paradoxical in the sense that once the weak methods peak in their acceptable performance at a given echelon of play, there’s no advancement thereafter such that it’s impossible to prove the player is inherently better because the variables of the methods differ. Even if that skill gap is very tight or even favoring the weaker-method player when against peak-level or above opponents, there’s virtually no way to prove it unless he was to win a fight. In which case, the assertion about the peak is either wrong, or the player using the weak method is simply astronomically better than the other. More than likely, it’s the former (I.E. why the meta changes), rather than seeing huge upsets where professional-level players start losing to random no-names.

In other words, a D/D player is better than a D/P player provided he or she can consistently beat the D/P player. If the D/D player cannot consistently beat the D/P player, the difference in skill cannot be determined by this outcome alone because D/P is stronger. Am I understanding this correctly?

It seems regardless of peoples’ answers, we’ve so far been in agreement in our unwillingness to declare winning with an advantage as especially skillful. Although this seems obvious, it also raises a question:

Is there no skill in determining what build is generally best and deciding to stick to it? I think you guys will agree there some skill involved, although maybe not very much with resources like metabattle and this forum available. If you do think determining the best general build is skillful, how do you differentiate between this kind of skill and the kind used in actual game-play?

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

Most skillful build No MH Pistol OH seeker with Sigil of Draining running Da/Tri/DrD Bahamas have fun.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

I don’t see why it can’t be a mix of both.

If the most “deep” build also has the lowest barrier of entry and can carry bad players, does that really justify an association to said set to the skill level of the player? No, because then there’s no trend to associate with.

A player who can win with fewer resources than his opponent is inherently the better player, because with the same or more resources, he would win otherwise and thus be intrinsically more skilled because the variables would be even.

The matter is defining what those resources are and their context in any given encounter. Conceptual hurdles and interactions between any two opponents will also vary based on each others’ builds and the likes. Defining universally what it takes to be “more skilled” by just a given weapon set combination is pretty much impossible as such.

What we can measure is the “skill” of the player given fixed contexts when compared to other players. Under scrutiny, there is typically a crude association which can be made between individual skill of the player and the viability of his chosen methodology when compared to that of the highest level of play, and then cross-comparing it to his peers at the level of play he is playing at and then doing further analysis based on the rated difficulty : effectiveness ratio of said method.

It also comes down to exploiting weaknesses and what is ultimately the amount of skill disparity between the players; the bigger the disparity, the more likely the “weaker”-method player is able to win, because he’s playing better. Those at the highest performance echelons will recognize the inherent flaws in the weaker methods and of course play for the most effective regardless of the barrier of entry, since they’re at the top and the disparity between them and their opponents is extremely low as to make non-viable methods simply not work well enough.

In the case of the thief, looking at the average case, sets involving the OH dagger for example may require more skill as such to play adequately – or to play as effectively as a given opponent playing something typically more effective – when compared to kits with OH pistol. This reflects back to the statement that typically, the player must have a larger skill advantage to perform just as well as the other when using a weaker method.

It’s paradoxical in the sense that once the weak methods peak in their acceptable performance at a given echelon of play, there’s no advancement thereafter such that it’s impossible to prove the player is inherently better because the variables of the methods differ. Even if that skill gap is very tight or even favoring the weaker-method player when against peak-level or above opponents, there’s virtually no way to prove it unless he was to win a fight. In which case, the assertion about the peak is either wrong, or the player using the weak method is simply astronomically better than the other. More than likely, it’s the former (I.E. why the meta changes), rather than seeing huge upsets where professional-level players start losing to random no-names.

So I think the better question to be asking is not what the most skill-intensive kit is, but rather, for a given context (level of play, opponent, environment, etc.) what the most impressive kit to be playing is.

I think you’re confusing skilled builds with skilled players. The most skillful build is measured only with its deep mechanics, but you can determine when a player is more skilled by making him win with a worse build. So, if a thief playing a simple but underperforming A build wins a thief playing a complex but strong B build consistnetly in a PvP environtment, the A thief is more skilled, but B build is still the build that requires more skill (and probably why the B thief cant win A thief, cause he’s worse mechanically)

M I L K B O I S

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Wargameur.6950

Wargameur.6950

This conversation will go nowhere….

If you don’t consider the player skill, then a skillful build can only be based on combos or skill rotations. In that regard the most skillful are builds with harder combos to obtain. For example a combo field and a blast is ridiculously easy to do with a short-bow. On d/p the action to go in stealth for a long time require more mastery.

But the thief is more of a “reaction” class, you won’t have a skill rotation like an ele, an engi or a mesmer.

main ~ Esper Jace (Thief )/ Ellundril Jiluan
(mesmer ) – EU [Teef]

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

This conversation will go nowhere….

If you don’t consider the player skill, then a skillful build can only be based on combos or skill rotations. In that regard the most skillful are builds with harder combos to obtain. For example a combo field and a blast is ridiculously easy to do with a short-bow. On d/p the action to go in stealth for a long time require more mastery.

But the thief is more of a “reaction” class, you won’t have a skill rotation like an ele, an engi or a mesmer.

Being a reaction class doesn’t mean we don’t have rotations. It just means our rotations vary more depending on the situation and what the opponent is doing – i.e our rotations are reactionary rotations.

For example, D/P dash thieves have similar rotations when fighting several classes, such as dh, necro, and warrior by bobbing in and out of melee range with dash and shadowshot. The rotation is essentially shadowshot, AA 1-2 times, then dodging headbutt, the point-blank condis from entering death shroud, etc. A rotation against an ele commonly involves waiting for them to use their earth overload before using steal.

We don’t have a skill rotation like some other classes, but there’s definitely patterns to how thieves fight certain classes. These patterns can be defined as rotations.

(edited by rennlc.7346)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

I think you’re confusing skilled builds with skilled players. The most skillful build is measured only with its deep mechanics, but you can determine when a player is more skilled by making him win with a worse build. So, if a thief playing a simple but underperforming A build wins a thief playing a complex but strong B build consistnetly in a PvP environtment, the A thief is more skilled, but B build is still the build that requires more skill (and probably why the B thief cant win A thief, cause he’s worse mechanically)

This, the difference between build and player, is what fascinates me. As other posters have said, the build itself cannot be skillful. Skill is what the player learns/brings. This makes an incredible amount of sense because skill is really just a specific type of brain matter we build up with practice. It’s something only existing inside our minds.

However, some builds are clearly more difficult than others, such as playing with an off-hand weapon only or X/D. As other posters have alluded, winning with handicap is much more skillful than winning without.

Thus, the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. There are no skillful builds but there are also builds where it’s much easier for players to show they’re incredibly skillful. Deceiver showed how situational this can be with articulating how sometimes handicapped builds will be too handicapped to succeed against the stronger builds. If players can’t win, they can’t show skill in one of the more obvious ways of demonstrating it (through winning).

Simply put, there are no skillful builds. There are only builds that can more or less easily be used to demonstrate skill. What those builds are depends on the situation.

(edited by rennlc.7346)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Wargameur.6950

Wargameur.6950

This conversation will go nowhere….

If you don’t consider the player skill, then a skillful build can only be based on combos or skill rotations. In that regard the most skillful are builds with harder combos to obtain. For example a combo field and a blast is ridiculously easy to do with a short-bow. On d/p the action to go in stealth for a long time require more mastery.

But the thief is more of a “reaction” class, you won’t have a skill rotation like an ele, an engi or a mesmer.

Being a reaction class doesn’t mean we don’t have rotations. It just means our rotations vary more depending on the situation and what the opponent is doing – i.e our rotations are reactionary.

For example, D/P dash thieves have similar rotations when fighting several classes, such as dh, necro, and warrior by bobbing in and out of melee range with dash and shadowshot. The rotation is essentially shadowshot, AA 1-2 times, then dodging headbutt, the point-blank condis from entering death shroud, etc. A rotation against an ele commonly involves waiting for them to use their earth overload before using steal.

We don’t have a skill rotation like some other classes, but there’s definitely patterns to how skilled thieves fight certain classes. These patterns can be defined as rotations.

I agree on the “how skilled thieves fight certain classes” but it is a behavioural pattern. What you describe here can be described as followed : gap closer ( with optionnal blind ) → damages → dodge incoming damages → interrupt incoming damages.

You can pretty much fit any weapon set in this :
- shortbow : infiltrator’s arrow → cluster bomb → Disabling shot → steal
- S/D : infiltrator strike → AA → flanking strike →infiltrator returns → steal

You can’t compare that with a test of faith → spear → pull → shield push from a DH or an instant 15 stacks of burn engi ( sry I don’t know the combo, I don’t have an engi )

The closer to that on a thief might be the ghost thief build or a black powder → bound → steal → backstab combo. which is quite easy to do.

main ~ Esper Jace (Thief )/ Ellundril Jiluan
(mesmer ) – EU [Teef]

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

You can’t compare that with a test of faith -> spear -> pull -> shield push from a DH or an instant 15 stacks of burn engi ( sry I don’t know the combo, I don’t have an engi )

I think you can. When we alternate gap-closers and gap-creators, it’s a sequence of ~2-5 skill uses depending on the situation. As you’ve shown, some other classes have longer sequences, but they can also use those sequences less frequently. What is a rotation other than a sequence of skill uses? How many skills do we need to use before the sequence can be defined as a rotation?

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

It’s paradoxical in the sense that once the weak methods peak in their acceptable performance at a given echelon of play, there’s no advancement thereafter such that it’s impossible to prove the player is inherently better because the variables of the methods differ. Even if that skill gap is very tight or even favoring the weaker-method player when against peak-level or above opponents, there’s virtually no way to prove it unless he was to win a fight. In which case, the assertion about the peak is either wrong, or the player using the weak method is simply astronomically better than the other. More than likely, it’s the former (I.E. why the meta changes), rather than seeing huge upsets where professional-level players start losing to random no-names.

In other words, a D/D player is better than a D/P player provided he or she can consistently beat the D/P player. If the D/D player cannot consistently beat the D/P player, the difference in skill cannot be determined by this outcome alone because D/P is stronger. Am I understanding this correctly?

It seems regardless of peoples’ answers, we’ve so far been in agreement in our unwillingness to declare winning with an advantage as especially skillful. Although this seems obvious, it also raises a question:

Is there no skill in determining what build is generally best and deciding to stick to it? I think you guys will agree there some skill involved, although maybe not very much with resources like metabattle and this forum available. If you do think determining the best general build is skillful, how do you differentiate between this kind of skill and the kind used in actual game-play?

I think that opens up a whole other can of worms. Game analysis and the development of theory and strategy is very different from acting on it.

In professional sports or really any similar game, namely American Football, there are many types of formations and strategies that can be theorized. These are developed by professional analysts/coaches etc. who crunch numbers, analyze plays, the game-state, etc. and look at them in comparison to any number of possible plays. These such team contributors are very unlikely to be those actually playing the game, as raw analysis coming from the players is unexpected for a variety of reasons, as would impeccable physical athleticism be unexpected coming from those doing the analysis.

Even in professional gaming, there are coaches and analysts who devise strategies and metas for the professional players to go by. Finding the most blatantly weak setup is typically fairly easy since it’s a matter of determining what will blatantly fail in the existing meta, or simply crunching numbers and cross-comparing skills and effects even in idealistic scenarios and then regressing towards reality. It’s fairly obvious for most to understand that D/D power is fundamentally weaker than D/P power for this reason; the number of scenarios which D/D can do better than D/P is very few, is marginal in its performance advantages in these scenarios, and these scenarios exist almost entirely out of the scope of the existing meta. The strongest builds will be the most difficult to uncover when considering everything and how that meshes to player-skill/preference/mindset/etc. I will make the sentiment clear, however, that a D/D player beating a D/P player consistently means very little, because the variables between said combatants are still numerous. The best expression for determining how skilled each player is would be to fight a large array of opponents, and then do so again on each others’ builds, and then comparing the results. Of course, even this isn’t perfect, either, since the level of experience against each individual opponent the second round through would be different than at the start, the barrier of entry on each build may be vastly different with each player having different baseline understandings/experiences with each others’ builds, etc… you can see why I said it’s nigh impossible to truly and objectively define skill.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

I think you’re confusing skilled builds with skilled players. The most skillful build is measured only with its deep mechanics, but you can determine when a player is more skilled by making him win with a worse build. So, if a thief playing a simple but underperforming A build wins a thief playing a complex but strong B build consistnetly in a PvP environtment, the A thief is more skilled, but B build is still the build that requires more skill (and probably why the B thief cant win A thief, cause he’s worse mechanically)

I’m not really certain I agree with this sentiment. D/D celestial ele had the most complex/deep mechanics (all those fields, finishers, number of skills, rotation timing, etc.) even when it was overpowered numerically, but once the player understood on a pretty primitive level on how to play it, they’d almost never lose a fight. I talk about contextual “impressive”-ness because I think that’s really what matters more to people. An celestial D/D ele from a few years ago holding a point 1v2 wouldn’t really make people impressed. The build allows for it, and it wasn’t difficult to really go wrong when playing the build because it was overpowered. In essence, there really wasn’t much notable play to really justify the player as necessarily being awesome. It’s why the pro games came down to thief and necromancer plays; the complex and intricate build of D/D ele couldn’t die and couldn’t kill anyone else, and it came down to smart decaps and mass boon removal. Now spin the encounter on its head and put a thief or necromancer holding a point 1v2 against two of those eles. All of a sudden that thief/necro player became way more skilled as a player.

Recall my mentioning of the concept of a barrier of entry for play methods as well as my discussion of the sheer number of variables. Such a case of “A beats B using a weaker but simpler build => A is the better player” isn’t very substantial because no variables are defined. If the barrier of entry on B’s build is very high while the barrier of entry on A is very low, and both are playing at very low skill levels, that is the expected outcome when considering just those variables. I mentioned the “average” case numerous times, because that’s what holds more weight, but the “average” case us tough to define because there are substantially more variables to consider when defining the “average,” which I’ve already mentioned is pretty much impossible to do to begin with.

So the only real criteria to go by often comes down to resources available to a given build and how numerically effective those resources are when compared to the meta and/or all situations, which explains the notions of coaching and theorycrafting and their prevalence in games as well. With these permutations and game-mechanics understood, it can be deemed on some level that winning with a build considered unlikely to win or at a strict disadvantage can only be otherwise described as simply being better than the opponent at that time, which if we assume the opponent is competent, we come to see as “impressive” when defying the odds. It doesn’t really matter about the complexity of the build so much as numerically the degree to which a given build is out-matched when contemplating all permutations of a given moment in combat. If the number of winnable permutations is small, we can say that the “weak”-built player must therefore be playing very well in order to capitalize on or even force those permutations to happen, and then execute while denying the adversary his.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

you can see why I said it’s nigh impossible to truly and objectively define skill.

Absolutely. In my opinion, everything we, people in general, are capable of perceiving is still an over-simplification to one degree or another in comparison to the perfect, objective truth. Although it may not be possible to determine the entire truth in this kind of situation, its still beneficial to us to attempt to answer these types of questions. This seems to be a sentiment you would at least agree with up to a certain point. In my opinion, the kind of question I asked is ultimately a matter of how much over-simplification is acceptable.

To me, it’s acceptable to say one build can tend to be more highly related to player skill than the rest. With the current state of thief, I think this build will generally be Dash D/P (Sindrener’s version). It’s an oversimplification, but, for whatever reasons, I find this over-simplification acceptable to make. I’m curious where you draw the line on what’s acceptable given how much nigh impossibility there is in determining a perfect truth. Are you willing to pick a single build to answer my original question (or an altered version of my question) given the amount of information currently available?

(edited by rennlc.7346)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Which is why in my first post I made this statement:

Under scrutiny, there is typically a crude association which can be made between individual skill of the player and the viability of his chosen methodology when compared to that of the highest level of play, and then cross-comparing it to his peers at the level of play he is playing at and then doing further analysis based on the rated difficulty : effectiveness ratio of said method.

As far as what takes the most skill to play, well, you know my stance on this. What I can tell you is that in my opinion the most impressive build to play and win with when against the meta would be something like D/D power core thief. Of course, this is nothing but my perception on the matter paired with what we can identify as being the weakest build available right now generally speaking.

I’ve had a number of opponents I’ve killed in WvW whisper me (A power D/D + S/D core thief player) commend me for playing those under-used if not under-powered weapons and winning with them. I have never been commended by anyone when playing D/P, and find those wins often ill-deserved from my own perspective.

The thing about D/P, is that it tends to be the favorite because both unskilled and highly-skilled players will do better than any other set, but for vastly different reasons. The lack of trend here demonstrates nothing more than that the weapon set is simply overall much better than its competition.

So, do what you will. Maybe I misunderstand the question, but from what I understand, it was asked which takes the most skill to play. For this, you’ll get massively different answers based on the playing experience from other players when simply asking that question. I can’t provide you with the objective truth, particularly because I barely know you and where you may stand on the win-rate ladder and the likes. I can only supply an answer that takes the OP as implicitly wanting to know which weapon set could most-demonstrate one’s skill, and I can only assume that he is within or near the average case, considering a pro-level player wouldn’t be asking this question, and a new one wouldn’t be talking about the most-skill-intensive getup. Thus, I can only assume he wants “impressiveness,” since any other question (like which is best) is totally unrelated to what was asked.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

Which is why in my first post I made this statement:

Under scrutiny, there is typically a crude association which can be made between individual skill of the player and the viability of his chosen methodology when compared to that of the highest level of play, and then cross-comparing it to his peers at the level of play he is playing at and then doing further analysis based on the rated difficulty : effectiveness ratio of said method.

As far as what takes the most skill to play, well, you know my stance on this. What I can tell you is that in my opinion the most impressive build to play and win with when against the meta would be something like D/D power core thief. Of course, this is nothing but my perception on the matter paired with what we can identify as being the weakest build available right now generally speaking.

I’ve had a number of opponents I’ve killed in WvW whisper me (A power D/D + S/D core thief player) commend me for playing those under-used if not under-powered weapons and winning with them. I have never been commended by anyone when playing D/P, and find those wins often ill-deserved from my own perspective.

The thing about D/P, is that it tends to be the favorite because both unskilled and highly-skilled players will do better than any other set, but for vastly different reasons. The lack of trend here demonstrates nothing more than that the weapon set is simply overall much better than its competition.

So, do what you will. Maybe I misunderstand the question, but from what I understand, it was asked which takes the most skill to play. For this, you’ll get massively different answers based on the playing experience from other players when simply asking that question. I can’t provide you with the objective truth, particularly because I barely know you and where you may stand on the win-rate ladder and the likes. I can only supply an answer that takes the OP as implicitly wanting to know which weapon set could most-demonstrate one’s skill, and I can only assume that he is within or near the average case, considering a pro-level player wouldn’t be asking this question, and a new one wouldn’t be talking about the most-skill-intensive getup. Thus, I can only assume he wants “impressiveness,” since any other question (like which is best) is totally unrelated to what was asked.

I’m having a problem though, Deceiver. Even after rereading that paragraph from your first post, I don’t know what your stance is on this other than you’re both more aware of and willing to explore the numerous ways answers can depend than other posters so far. Is it, simply put, that skillfulness is in the eye of the beholder? That seems to be the implication of you redefining “skillful” as “impressiveness” and using compliments and lack thereof as indicators of impressiveness. If so, however, it seems you’re answering for how other people will interpret skillfulness, such as your own skillfulness, but not how you interpret the skillfulness of others.

Considering I’m the person who made this thread, you can ask me what my intentions were/are. If you do, I’ll tell you about how it’s intentionally ambiguous because I’m not looking for build help and I’m more curious about how people answer the question rather than what our answers are. If you still feel my skill level is an important point of discussion, I’ll be happy to provide information to help you make a more informed decision about what my skill level currently is (such as my total number of sPvP games played and my winning %).

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

I just mean it in the sense that you’re going to get different answers based on the perceptions of others. It’s not that it’s so much purely subjective(since there does exist an objective means to prove skill with infinite accuracy, just doing so is infinitely impossible all the same) as it is a mere fact that different players at different echelons and styles of play are going to have different perceptions. There is going to be bias in answers because those answers are nothing more than perceptions. We can identify weakness, but that means nothing about a measure of skill. It’s like comparing an Olympic sprinter that has legs versus one in the Special Olympics that does not. We can identify the differences and how well they will perform, but we cannot tell at some high level of distinction “how good of a runner by the nature of running itself” each individual may be compared to the other, aside from simply how quickly they move. Speed in their case is just a performance measure while not really identifying the quality of running. The same is said about tournament-level play favoring performance. If that’s your metric, then it’s all for D/P.

But to inspect the very nature of “how good of a runner by the nature of running itself” – or skill behind the keyboard in our case – is something that’s on a totally different level, and for that, I wanted to distinguish what may very well be meant by skill.

I can only give my view, which is what I said above. My posts attempted to provide genuine insight to both you and other thread viewers to avoid just starting pointless circular discussion about what takes more skill by providing a means to understand what skill necessarily may be in general, and as such, would allow you, the OP, to do whatever you like with the information provided by others’ perceptions and your own given some thought. The nature of “impressiveness” is simply an out for the pragmatic answer for someone looking to make use of the data for anything other than discussion.

Quite honestly, your original post doesn’t really suggest anything in particular as to what you’re looking for in an answer.

Hope that clarifies things.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

So, basically, your opinion is this question cannot be determined by the methods we would certainly use within a discussion and you’ve been commenting mainly to encourage us to look at the question in ways you view as being less crude. Is this accurate, Deceiver?

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Adoninilol.3180

Adoninilol.3180

Honestly all of the builds are kinda useful
P/P – Best ranged dps, use it all the time for unload (can get hits up to like 66k when you get 3-4 unloads going)
Shortbow – Solid utility, port useful in raids, useful in pvp cause bounce, decent damage
D/D – Good damage, as good as staff
S/P – Dodge on pistol whip, good for tanking, immo #2, blinds, headshot.
D/P – PVP is pretty amazing, kinda bad in pve tho.
Staff – The best thing atm for really anything, vault is bomb, damage is good, access to blind, access to roll back evade, not much else to say other than too good not to use in pve.
P/D – Kinda bad, don’t even remember what it gives tbh.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

My personal opinion is that you have to look and rate viable builds. I mean I’m sure I can put together a build that trumps core d/d signet build in terms,of difficulty.

I’ll rate on a scale of 1 to 5 5 being the most skill required.

D/D condi 2
P/D condi 1
Staff acro power 3
D/P Bound 2
D/P Dash 4

All these builds are using DD and are viable to play in a ranked game. The P/D is more niche but I’ve had some thieves wreck my face with ease on it.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

i think if i wanted to rate WvW based on what i think is hardest to play to easiest hmm i would go. 1 being no skill.

0. ghost thief. LOL? we even going to talk about this one.
1. eva staff/staff( power) (only thing you worry about is landing steal you can frame trap it for 100% hit)
2. eva d/d/short bow ( con) (only thing you worry about is landing steal you can frame trap it for 100% hit(
3. d/p/ short bow (power) ( only worry about staying in stealth)
4. d/d / short bow( power) ( you have to worry about how to engage with out using any utility)
5. p/d / short bow(con ) (you have to make sure you do not put yourself out of position to get kited)
6. d/p /short bow( con) (it very easy to commit to much to 1 attack get con clear)
7. s/p / d/p ( power) ( it very easy to commit to much to 1 attack an they out tempo you in the fight)

this may not be every build in WvW this just a sample size of my view on there skill level as a my view as a thief.

i am not going to put p/p on here because i think it just not worth viewing.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

So, basically, your opinion is this question cannot be determined by the methods we would certainly use within a discussion and you’ve been commenting mainly to encourage us to look at the question in ways you view as being less crude. Is this accurate, Deceiver?

I’m saying you’re going to get crude answers and to take them at face value is pointless, just as much as debating the nature of what best adequately displays skill or takes the most skill to play (something which is still not clear).

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

I’m saying you’re going to get crude answers and to take them at face value is pointless, just as much as debating the nature of what best adequately displays skill or takes the most skill to play (something which is still not clear).

I disagree with it being pointless. If nothing else, it’s a mental exercise. What makes an answer crude?

(edited by rennlc.7346)

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Kocoff.7582

Kocoff.7582

I think S/D is requires some level of skill. It’s graceful, and it doesn’t necessarily require stealth.. I have fought fairly skillful Staff/ SB.

The skill of thief, is definitely in his/her ability to predict moves properly.

Blackgate Server [RLR]
Thief – Raiden Hayabusa
Thief – Gouki Kurokawa

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

The basic definition of a skill build is one that is both highly effective and difficult to master. Builds that rely on self rotation are typically not skill builds. A skilled player will make them run better but inherently it doesn’t take much to master the rotation.

Builds that rely on counter play are almost universally the most difficult to master as they require a deeper understanding of mechanics of their enemy. That mastery typically pays off big at least until they face an opponent with an equal or higher level of counter play.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

I’ve been thinking about this since I got a question earlier from a random person I played against in pvp. They wanted tips on how to get better at playing thief. So I taught them teleport stomp and some of the pros/cons of some weapon sets. I also told them that knowing when you need to pull back and disengage is part of being a good thief. And a little about the uses for stolen skills.

Straegen is right that counterplay is always a part of being a good player. Still that isn’t always clearly “a part of” a particular build. Knowing, for example, to dodge out of warriors burst skills to avoid annoying regeneration is not exactly tied to one or another build.

Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Thief (Daredevil)
Commandant of Pistol-Dagger and Apex Predator

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Cameron.6215

Cameron.6215

Come on guys… It’s never about the build. It’s about how you play the build and the actual thief at hand.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

There isn’t.

It’s the easiest class in game, with perma stealth, perma dodge, and 1-shot backstabs/skills.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

There isn’t.

It’s the easiest class in game, with perma stealth, perma dodge, and 1-shot backstabs/skills.

Rebuttle

  • Not the easiest class in the game. (where are you getting this? If anything warrior is easiest, at least to learn. DH probably is the easiest to win with at lower skill levels. Thief is probably the hardest to learn and perfect, though I can admit there are some easy specs. (gingerbread man is easy to learn, hard to make viable though)
  • Does not have perma stealth, only has one weapon set which grant’s viable access to stealth. Every thing else is a utility skill, or Cloak and Dagger, which BTW, is in no way viable.
  • No thief can one shot you. We have to use pretty much al of our cooldowns chained together within a few seconds to kill you quickly enough to seem like a one shot, and the cooldown for doing that is outrageous. Also doing thatrequires that we actually succeed on the first attempt, otherwise we loose. If we miss one ability we are screwed, and that IF you don;t have any passives to stop the initial assault, which almost everyone does.
  • Warriors have Defy Pain
  • Necro’s have Shroud
  • Guardians have Aegis
  • Mesmers have an Auto daze. (it is an auto daze on stun right? not a mesmer)

Those are the ones I know off the top of my head. of those the only one i know a way around is Aegis but doing that requires me to sacrifice a utility skill for Impairing daggers.

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

It’s the easiest class in game, with perma stealth, perma dodge, and 1-shot backstabs/skills.

This is utter horse-kitten. Druid, Warrior, Dragon Hunter, Mesmer are all easier to master with so much passive defense it borders on ridiculous. There is a reason thieves don’t do well in WvW duels between solid players.

There is no perma dodge, that is a L2P issue. The only perma-stealth build is a complete troll build that is relatively easily avoided and I think most on here would welcome its demise.

There is no 1-shot backstab outside of ridiculous scenarios. Backstab is not even a good DPS skill. It requires more setup than pretty much any other hard hitting skill. It is single target (no cleave or AoE). If it misses it puts the skill on a 1s cooldown as well as the thieves entire auto attack. Oh yeah and it is a melee skill lacking the range of I don’t know lets say Gunflame which actually does hit as hard, has a daze, lights the targets on fire, easier to setup and is a ranged cleave.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

You both clearly missed the obvious troll or have not been around the boards for a while. I mean this is Zero Day of all people.

I mean look at his signature lol…

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Rocky.8195

Rocky.8195

i think if i wanted to rate WvW based on what i think is hardest to play to easiest hmm i would go. 1 being no skill.

0. ghost thief. LOL? we even going to talk about this one.
1. eva staff/staff( power) (only thing you worry about is landing steal you can frame trap it for 100% hit)
2. eva d/d/short bow ( con) (only thing you worry about is landing steal you can frame trap it for 100% hit(
3. d/p/ short bow (power) ( only worry about staying in stealth)
4. d/d / short bow( power) ( you have to worry about how to engage with out using any utility)
5. p/d / short bow(con ) (you have to make sure you do not put yourself out of position to get kited)
6. d/p /short bow( con) (it very easy to commit to much to 1 attack get con clear)
7. s/p / d/p ( power) ( it very easy to commit to much to 1 attack an they out tempo you in the fight)

this may not be every build in WvW this just a sample size of my view on there skill level as a my view as a thief.

i am not going to put p/p on here because i think it just not worth viewing.

What’s Ghost Thief?

What is the most skillful thief build?

in Thief

Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

i think if i wanted to rate WvW based on what i think is hardest to play to easiest hmm i would go. 1 being no skill.

0. ghost thief. LOL? we even going to talk about this one.
1. eva staff/staff( power) (only thing you worry about is landing steal you can frame trap it for 100% hit)
2. eva d/d/short bow ( con) (only thing you worry about is landing steal you can frame trap it for 100% hit(
3. d/p/ short bow (power) ( only worry about staying in stealth)
4. d/d / short bow( power) ( you have to worry about how to engage with out using any utility)
5. p/d / short bow(con ) (you have to make sure you do not put yourself out of position to get kited)
6. d/p /short bow( con) (it very easy to commit to much to 1 attack get con clear)
7. s/p / d/p ( power) ( it very easy to commit to much to 1 attack an they out tempo you in the fight)

this may not be every build in WvW this just a sample size of my view on there skill level as a my view as a thief.

i am not going to put p/p on here because i think it just not worth viewing.

What’s Ghost Thief?

try reading the 50 WvW forums trying to remove it XD