Guild Wars 2

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Almost no one will play a spec that can lose to thief 1v1 in a real game. Remember thief has the best mobility. Losing a 1v1 against thief means you are dead weight to your team. Thief can always pick the fight he wants and you will always be the victim.

The only exception is probably mesmer before patch. The class can bring important utility that is portal and moa. So with a good mesmer on team, you can choose to have a thief to babysit him. Even then, you see very few mesmer used by teams. Because you need great coordination to have a mesmer being useful.

The new specialization daredevil, however, is a chance for thief to play differently. I would like to see a viable option for thief that gives up some mobility for actual fighting capability. I remember the old meta SD thief has much better 1v1 potential. So it can happen.

A little off-topic but I’m starting to think mesmer might be considered op atm because there’s no one to keep them in check anymore. Thief used to be that profession but no more. Funny how their roles flipped.

I have hope that DD spec will help the thief survive a little longer 1v1, at least against some professions and builds. But well, personally I feel there should be a HP buff too. But that’s just me.

runeblade.7514:

Cubotrix.1723:

HI.

i want to thank everyone for their support AND constructive feedback.

While i do agree that thieves have a very good mobility lets not forget that other classes can have similar mobility ( mesmer portal, that also serves as an escape and port to decap/cap), D/D ele WHILE maintaining a capacity do instadown ANYONE WHILE evading. This is ridiculous im sorry.

Which is on a 72 second cooldown. Thieves can do a shadowstep up a balcony and leave. Find there is an enemy on a balcony. Drop down and watch the enemy follow him down, and shadow step back up the balcony to see the enemy can’t follow him because he is a ranger and rangers can’t shadowstep.

Thieves were supposed to be from the start high risk high reward class and although I DO AGREE that thieves should be able to be a bunker thief IF they spec purely on support/tanky line…. SHADOWFORM ?!?!?! anybody? :P

D/P thieves aren’t really high risk. You can simply press Pistol 5 + dagger 2 for stealth and get away. If you get stun locked, you have utility skills for panic buttons.

One problem as of now within the thief class is that we only have 2 roles : dmg and supp BUT if a thief decides to go full DMG they can never even reach the level of a mesmer or ele or burning guardian ( but burning guardians should be nerfed and nobody should look at them as a place to be.) AND IF they go full support, they come to the realization that they are out-classed as support by at least necro and guardian ( even water ele ) so even if spec fully for support they feel subpar.

D/P is both support, damage, and most importantly control. It is a difference between Ele and thieves. Ele have sustain and damage. Ele do have some control skills, but their control is no where near the level or reliability on thieves. Basilisk venom and panic strike make the enemy become an easy target. Sleight of hand gives a instant interrupt. Head shot if you want to interrupt a stomp.

Now a number of you have said and correctly : Thieves are a constant in PVP tournaments and teams at least one. to these people i say that please do remember that pvp tournament are high-end i can express myself correctly so let me recall and example : Saying that a high-end LoL player is LEGENDARY on poppy DOES not alter de fact that to the general masses poppy is awfull. the problem is that Thief played high-end is good but unless u are a high-tier PVP player the thief class SHOWS A MASSIVE dificulty to achieve the same reward when compared to other classes that people call balanced example : dd ele and perma clone zerker evader mesmer ( yes i do hate them)

D/P thief isn’t really hard.

another problem in the thief class is the Subpar "power"of Steal , while it provides a usefull and free shadowstep the stolen skills which were due to be the thief unique passive falls rather sort when compared to the other calsses uniques. i can safely say its the weakest "passive, but its skills are also relativity weak.

Ability to steal boons and instant interrupt = weak?

So in the end we thieves main ARE NOT asking to be a uber-zerker kill all be all we are just asking little buffs to increase of survival that is severely denied … in order to at least having a mediocre chance 50% of dueling another player of the same skill level as ours IF WE SPEC THAT way. A EXTREME mobility thief should not be able to duel. but forcing one class to 1 role ONLY is really bad is with leagues ANET want gw2 to become an esport

If thief wants sustain, it has to be in a form where any class can see you. Sadly, shadows art is the survivability line. So, I suggest a Seeking effect.

1. Yes a Thief can do those sorts of shenanigans. “Oh look at me, I just juked you, silly Ranger.” Wow. I’ll say it YET AGAIN; Thief does have great mobility purely and simply because SB 5 exists. We all know that. and guess what? That skill costs quite abit of Initiative. You do that twice on, say, Clocktower, and you’ve just left yourself sitting next to mid point with no initiative. Which means that if there are players there, you are dead. But it’s ok though, because we just made that Ranger waste a couple seconds of his time. (Considering the fact that he even bothered to chase you in the first place, which isn’t even something a Ranger would have to do at that range). I forgot that Thieves are so good at Shadowstepping that if they have anything else going for them they’d be OP, kitten kitten . Silly me.

2. 5 – 2 is highly interruptable and costs most of your bar in Initiative. Any decent, observant player will be saving his interrupts specifically for the 5 – 2 combo, because a D/P thief relies so heavily on it. If someone interrupts my attempts at doing that combo, my initiative bar is empty and I am dead. And panic button when stunlocked? You mean Shadowstep? Ok, we use that, then what? We have no invulns, no Stab, no other stunbreakers and most classes have enough CC throughout the fight that we’re forced to burn our Shadowstep early.

3. Ele has nowhere near as much control as Thief? Whaaaa? Have you played the game lately? Basi Venom is an extremely short duration stun, and whilst it’s great for 1v1 (which again, we can’t do anyway) it’s not so strong to make other control effects look subpar by ANY means. And comparing us to Ele and saying we have more control than them is absurd. Panic Strike is good but most classes have very easy on demand access to skills or traits that completely invalidate Immobilize. I can’t remember the last time someone complained about Panic Strike being a game-changer. Sleight of Hand is on a 20 second cd, and Head Shot, whilst a great skill, costs precious initiative that we’re on short supply of if we’re tyring to maintain our oh-so-important stealth (which we’re forced to camp in for long durations of time if we even hope to sustain ourselves in a fight, which simply draws it out and allows our opponent to reset back to full anyway). So Head Shot isn’t something we use on a whim. On the other hand, D/D ele has great AoE, a very strong presence in teamfights due to it’s area control. On top of that they can dish out more damage than us whilst also being next to impossible to 1v1 due to sustain.

4. D/P is hard because it IS high-risk and, frankly, not much reward. I challenge you to play Thief and fight a series of 1v1s against other professions and then tell me you think it’s easy to take them down because it certainly is not. You may as well not bother at all if you’re faced with a Guardian, Ele or Necro, because you will lose unless you play flawlessly and they mess up, and even then the fight will last so long you’ll get bored anyway.

5. I’d agree that I don’t think Steal is weak, because otherwise Thief wouldn’t rely so heavily on the Trickery line. Every single build is pigeonholed into using Trickery because it’s the one good thing that happened to Thief since the patch.

Exciton.8942:

Almost no one will play a spec that can lose to thief 1v1 in a real game. Remember thief has the best mobility. Losing a 1v1 against thief means you are dead weight to your team. Thief can always pick the fight he wants and you will always be the victim.

The only exception is probably mesmer before patch. The class can bring important utility that is portal and moa. So with a good mesmer on team, you can choose to have a thief to babysit him. Even then, you see very few mesmer used by teams. Because you need great coordination to have a mesmer being useful.

The new specialization daredevil, however, is a chance for thief to play differently. I would like to see a viable option for thief that gives up some mobility for actual fighting capability. I remember the old meta SD thief has much better 1v1 potential. So it can happen.

this is important. there are builds that loose hard vs theif, zerker ele, zerker warr, zerk engi, zerk ranger etc- but as Exciton says people don’t play them because thrives can just farm you all game. this is why thief seems to be bad at 1v1, because with a theif on every competitive team playing a build that theif beats is asking to be farmed. hence so many tanky builds.

choovanski.5462:

Exciton.8942:

Almost no one will play a spec that can lose to thief 1v1 in a real game. Remember thief has the best mobility. Losing a 1v1 against thief means you are dead weight to your team. Thief can always pick the fight he wants and you will always be the victim.

The only exception is probably mesmer before patch. The class can bring important utility that is portal and moa. So with a good mesmer on team, you can choose to have a thief to babysit him. Even then, you see very few mesmer used by teams. Because you need great coordination to have a mesmer being useful.

The new specialization daredevil, however, is a chance for thief to play differently. I would like to see a viable option for thief that gives up some mobility for actual fighting capability. I remember the old meta SD thief has much better 1v1 potential. So it can happen.

this is important. there are builds that loose hard vs theif, zerker ele, zerker warr, zerk engi, zerk ranger etc- but as Exciton says people don’t play them because thrives can just farm you all game. this is why thief seems to be bad at 1v1, because with a theif on every competitive team playing a build that theif beats is asking to be farmed. hence so many tanky builds.

Wha? Zerker War does absolutely fine vs Thief, I have exactly 0 problems against Thieves as my zerker Hammer/GS Warrior. I LOVE when a Thief engages me as a Warrior because they either give up and run away or they die. Nobody plays Zerker Ele anyway because it’s terrible in comparison to Cele. Thief is not the reason that people are running tanky builds because even glassy builds are less glassy and harder-hitting than a Thief is. Thief hasnt got the capability to “farm” anyone at all. Just because a Zerker build isn’t viable on some professions doesn’t mean that it’s a Thief’s fault because it isn’t. Anything a Thief can beat, other professions can beat just as easily if not easier.

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Everyone can decap – technically you just stand on the point alone. That is how it is to look at things in a vacuum.

Not a single thief have come forward and told what relevant classes/builds they want to be able to beat, and what the consequences would be for that class – that I DO find highly relevant. It really boils down to what should be exchanged for the ability to 1vs1.

When you say “both have the role to decap” you are in fact saying so more than that – I wonder if you are aware of that? In some ways it is even in conflict with statements of some of your fellow thieves in this thread. What you are saying is, that only these 2 classes decap (not in line with other thieves) and it seems like you are ok with that? What you also is saying, is that the ability to decap is some fixed thing, and somehow mesmers and thieves have something in common, but mesmers have something more than thief, beside “that thing” they have in common – thief is thereby some kind of subset to mesmers. I don’t think I have words to describe how much I disagree with that kind of interpretation.

Tbh I think giving up short bow for the fighting side of this argument would be the way. Sb is so kitten good at what is does I feel pepole don’t want to give up for that reason. D/p and possible s/d should be more then enough to 1v1 people.

The whole idea of this +1 role comes down to the amount of time us thievs have been relying on the short bow, and for good reasons too it’s too good of a utity weapon to give up which leaves just weapon set. Which is either d/x burst Down weapon that lacks any deuling ability on point as it relys too much on stealth or s/d that can’t burst for kitten but Is a good at dueling (cs trait line can make it hurt a bit though)

Moan all you like but our class wasn’t designed to jump in a brawl other wise we would get protection and invuls like most other class’s.

Poxxia.1547:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Everyone can decap – technically you just stand on the point alone. That is how it is to look at things in a vacuum.

Not a single thief have come forward and told what relevant classes/builds they want to be able to beat, and what the consequences would be for that class – that I DO find highly relevant. It really boils down to what should be exchanged for the ability to 1vs1.

When you say “both have the role to decap” you are in fact saying so more than that – I wonder if you are aware of that? In some ways it is even in conflict with statements of some of your fellow thieves in this thread. What you are saying is, that only these 2 classes decap (not in line with other thieves) and it seems like you are ok with that? What you also is saying, is that the ability to decap is some fixed thing, and somehow mesmers and thieves have something in common, but mesmers have something more than thief, beside “that thing” they have in common – thief is thereby some kind of subset to mesmers. I don’t think I have words to describe how much I disagree with that kind of interpretation.

Why should we have to exchange our ONLY strength to be able to 1v1 whilst other professions can have 1v1 ability but not have to exchange other strengths? Explain to me how that is fair balancing. Mesmer can provide AoE buffs whilst also being a good 1v1 profession whilst ALSO having good mobility. Why tf should Thief only be able to 1v1 whilst having NO team support outside of rezzing (which every class can do also, btw) and giving up the ONLY thing that keeps them relevant in PvP which is SB 5? If you remove SB 5 then we are totally and utterly irrelevant and that won’t change if we suddenly become able to 1v1 because then other professions that have BOTH of those things will just replace Thieves because why not? There’s no point having a Thief that can only do one of those things when you have an Ele or a Mesmer that can do both. But no, it’s only OP when it’s a Thief, because people are anti-Thief no matter how powerful they are, like you clearly are.
If I absolutely had to make the choice though, I’d much rather be able to 1v1 than be a decap-bot so if you’re all so anti-Thief as to disallow us having multiple strengths that are on-par with other professions then yeah, remove SB 5 and you’ll see absolutely no Thieves in PvP ever. Then maybe you’ll finally be happy.

Edit: I don’t care which professions I’d be able to beat. It’d just be nice to beat a SINGLE one of them.

apharma.3741:

My question is this: What would you be willing to give up to be better in 1v1 scenarios?

Mobility? Blinds? Reduced access to stealth? Eat a longer reveal debuff for more damage? Would you even be willing to swap initiative for cool downs?

1. CnD gets blind on hit, Black Powder looses its Smoke Field and instead stealths on projectile hit if over 450/600. No more free stealth except through utilities on high CDs, if thief stealthes, it was the fault of the enemy.
2. Backstab damage coefficient raised to 3-3.2. Current damage is pitiful for the setup compared to other classes
3. Old Feline Grace gets baseline (adjust returned stamina), Shadow Rejuvenation gets baseline
4. Infiltrator’s Arrow blinds at starting point, Z-axis teleports are taken out of game (for teleports of other classes as well)

“B..b…but Marauder, that would make teef so strong!” Yes, but it would only take it closer to what other classes can do.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Poxxia.1547:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Everyone can decap – technically you just stand on the point alone. That is how it is to look at things in a vacuum.

Not a single thief have come forward and told what relevant classes/builds they want to be able to beat, and what the consequences would be for that class – that I DO find highly relevant. It really boils down to what should be exchanged for the ability to 1vs1.

When you say “both have the role to decap” you are in fact saying so more than that – I wonder if you are aware of that? In some ways it is even in conflict with statements of some of your fellow thieves in this thread. What you are saying is, that only these 2 classes decap (not in line with other thieves) and it seems like you are ok with that? What you also is saying, is that the ability to decap is some fixed thing, and somehow mesmers and thieves have something in common, but mesmers have something more than thief, beside “that thing” they have in common – thief is thereby some kind of subset to mesmers. I don’t think I have words to describe how much I disagree with that kind of interpretation.

Why should we have to exchange our ONLY strength to be able to 1v1 whilst other professions can have 1v1 ability but not have to exchange other strengths? Explain to me how that is fair balancing. Mesmer can provide AoE buffs whilst also being a good 1v1 profession whilst ALSO having good mobility. Why tf should Thief only be able to 1v1 whilst having NO team support outside of rezzing (which every class can do also, btw) and giving up the ONLY thing that keeps them relevant in PvP which is SB 5? If you remove SB 5 then we are totally and utterly irrelevant and that won’t change if we suddenly become able to 1v1 because then other professions that have BOTH of those things will just replace Thieves because why not? There’s no point having a Thief that can only do one of those things when you have an Ele or a Mesmer that can do both. But no, it’s only OP when it’s a Thief, because people are anti-Thief no matter how powerful they are, like you clearly are.
If I absolutely had to make the choice though, I’d much rather be able to 1v1 than be a decap-bot so if you’re all so anti-Thief as to disallow us having multiple strengths that are on-par with other professions then yeah, remove SB 5 and you’ll see absolutely no Thieves in PvP ever. Then maybe you’ll finally be happy.

Edit: I don’t care which professions I’d be able to beat. It’d just be nice to beat a SINGLE one of them.

- What should become of “the single profession” when it is always reachable by you?
- When did I say “no team support”?
- Stop calling me “anti-thief”, I am none of the sort, and the character-attacks are beginning to be annoying. Just because we don’t agree on certain aspects, doesn’t make me anti-anything! I really disagree with the whole victimisation-attitude tbh.
- If you find, that thieves should unconditionally be buffed in 1vs1, then we really do disagree. I would claim, that what you take for granted is beyond what most classes have, and you don’t realise it.
- What mesmer-AoE-buffs are you referring to? Last I checked, mesmers were running Dom/Duel/Chaos with GS+S/T? If you take Inspiration instead of Chaos, then there is no PU, which usually is the culprit. Each build has its own weakness.

It is not like, I can’t follow your fear of being irrelevant as class. Right now, that is not the case, however.
It isn’t like, all other classes have a ton of viable builds neither – you do realise that?
Why do you want a special treatment? What justification is there to bring a ranger fx, if that was the class you wanted to be able to 1vs1 (mind you, it would have to be a 1vs1-build ranger to be of any relevance).
And why is the only solution you see a buff to thieves and not a buff to diversity of classes? You want diversity for your class, but isn’t diversity also diversity of classes taking different roles? That “strong point” of yours is no exception from that.

PS: Our opinions most likely don’t have any impact anyway

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kolompi.1287:

Thieves are not unhappy about being a +1 class, they are unhappy about not being able to smack the living hell out of everyone but the tankiest builds. If they would look at the big picture objectively they would realize that they are not weak just that the playing field has been leveled out a bit.

Also garbage. Tired of people on the outside looking in trying to tell me how I feel.

I have no sustain.

Every other class got a dps boost.

Its painfully simple.

I dont care how long the kitten fight takes or whether or not I do a little or a lot of damage to a specific build. I need to be able to sustain long enough to make either leaving or winning an option.

Right now I can do neither.

EDIT: I want to tack on that I find the fact that every other dev is providing dps increases for the respective classes they oversee, but for the most part thieves are getting clunky ways to avoid that damage without any baseline sustain or baseline methods to deal with it.

The old feline grace should have been baseline. Fleet shadow should be baseline. Instead we got the former avenue crippled and the latter in a line that nobody wants to take because it’s borderline useless when considered practically.

I still need to look at DD. It’s so clunky atm though that I wont use it if it’s like that at release.

You have no sustain? That’s a lot of garbage and you know it. Try to build differently then, run another amulet, different rune, whatever. But don’t cry about lack of sustain on a class that has been known for being able to either evade virtually everything or disengage at will if pressured.

I haven’t seen the thief subforum abuzz asking for balance while you were OP as kitten.

kolompi.1287:

You have no sustain? That’s a lot of garbage and you know it. Try to build differently then, run another amulet, different rune, whatever. But don’t cry about lack of sustain on a class that has been known for being able to either evade virtually everything or disengage at will if pressured.

I haven’t seen the thief subforum abuzz asking for balance while you were OP as kitten.

Wow…Do you also tell people who don’t get high numbers on thief pistol AA to get zerker gear to fix the problem?
Have you read the various complaints of the thief community that it is simply not possible to build a thief with sufficient sustain or are your eyes to tear-dimmed because dem OP teefs are killing you when you disengage another player with 25 % HP left?

Would be great if daredevil thief on s/d became a thing. The old d/p metabuild might still overshadow it thogh. S/d is a pot more fun imo.

S/p needs some more flexibility on skill3 like splitting p.whip into 2skills like on s/d

kolompi.1287:

You have no sustain? That’s a lot of garbage and you know it. Try to build differently then, run another amulet, different rune, whatever. But don’t cry about lack of sustain on a class that has been known for being able to either evade virtually everything or disengage at will if pressured.

I haven’t seen the thief subforum abuzz asking for balance while you were OP as kitten.

I don’t care about the past, arguing about that would accomplish nothing.

I’m talking about the current state of thief and that, compared to the respective dps increases of other classes, thief lacks the sustainability they need to compete.

Thief -HAD- evades. They have been nerfed.

A thief -should- have a disengage, but that should not cost them their ability to fight competitively in 1v1s. Tons of classes have disengages, and personally every class should have a disengage imo (inc. Necro), but that doesn’t come at the cost of their combat capability.

Speccing tanky does not remedy the problem, it only aggravates it. The dps drop removes pressure, and since thief is not a class that can play attrition without desisting from damage output entirely, the lack of inherent defense just makes 1v1ing in that state a slow death.

I maintain, I have no sustain, for the meta as it stands now. I don’t care about how the thief was seen initially. A period of them being decent does not mean they deserve a period of being near-unplayable.

So .. what does this tell me?
Unfortunately what I read into this, is that the vast majority of thieves posting here, has no intention of giving something up in order to be able to 1vs1. In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”. The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.

Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

Poxxia.1547:

In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

Game diversity is not my problem. There are several thousand players more qualified than myself to tell Anet what is wrong with the other classes. I’m looking after the ones I play specifically, and any specific mechanics that completely shut the class I choose to play down, whether they be class inherent or general new additions.

Example. If mesmer is having a gameplay problem, talk to a mesmer main. I don’t have the experience to talk about that. We seem to have dozens of players willing to chime in about thief without actually playing it though. If there’s oneshot problems or a class is too strong in the meta, there is often no effort on the part of players who main those classes to request a nerf on their own part (Mesmers get a gold star for breaking this mold.).

That being said, I don’t see why I need to bother with other classes unless they’re taking advantage of overwhelming dps or mechanics that are not working as intended in specific builds.

which brings me to:

Poxxia.1547:

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”.

Of course not. That being said, we also did not go into topics concerning classes who were genuinely underpowered and tell them they were fine. That’s whats being done here.

Poxxia.1547:

The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.
Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

I don’t demand other players do anything but lack the audacity to tell a class that is having issues that it’s fine when it isnt. That is the problem I’m having. There is a deliberate effort being made by non thief players to subjugate them.

Apart from that I couldn’t care less.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Poxxia.1547:

In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

Game diversity is not my problem. There are several thousand players more qualified than myself to tell Anet what is wrong with the other classes. I’m looking after the ones I play specifically, and any specific mechanics that completely shut the class I choose to play down, whether they be class inherent or general new additions.

Example. If mesmer is having a problem, talk to a memser main. I dont have the experience to talk about that. We seem to have dozens of players willing to chime in about thief without actually playing it though.

Poxxia.1547:

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”.

Of course not. That being said, we also did not go into the forums of classes who were genuinely underpowered and tell them they were fine. That’s whats being done here.

Poxxia.1547:

The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.
Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

I don’t demand other players do anything but lack the audacity to tell a class that is having issues that it’s fine when it isnt. That is the problem I’m having. There is a deliberate effort being made by non thief players to subjugate them.

Apart from that I couldn’t care less.

No offense, but this WAS posted in the PvP-forum.
Take a look at your own forum at page 1:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/On-the-thief-s-1v1-capability/first#post5469873
tl:dr : Some thieves don’t exactly see things your way.
I find, that there is no conspiracy; I find it to be in your head. I have personally no intentions in that direction – not sure, where you get that from.

What is fine, and what isn’t fine is “by definition” not defined by one part alone; a balance involves more than one.

You seem to completely see things in a vacuum. Not even hardcore science like physics work that way.

If you insist, we can continue this on pm’s – it is frankly downright silly to continue this debate in the forum.

Poxxia.1547:

No offense, but this WAS posted in the PvP-forum.
Take a look at your own forum at page 1:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/On-the-thief-s-1v1-capability/first#post5469873
tl:dr : Some thieves don’t exactly see things your way. There is no conspiracy, it is in your head. What is fine, and what isn’t fine is “by definition” not defined by one part alone a balance involves more than one.

You seem to completely see things in a vacuum. Not even hardcore science like physics work that way.

If you insist, we can continue this on pm’s – it is frankly downright silly to continue this debate in the forum.

I have no quarrel with you, frankly; so I don’t see why we’d need to go to pms.

I know that a balance involves more than one part. I am not in a position to address any classes but thief (and warrior) because I do not play those classes frequently.

That does not, however, somehow restrict me from knowing when a class I -do- play is having issues in the current meta.

I’m requesting sustain to deal with the obvious damage boosts of the other classes, not the world and not free bags. How that is addressed may not be as simple as just sustain, but there is a problem with thieves not being able to live.

Further, I do not believe there is some kind of conspiracy, but exactly what I said -is- happening. There are people in this thread deliberately posting that thief is fine when it is not.

Annnd what does that topic have to do with this one. It was created less than a day ago, this one has been up for two -and- is in the pvp section.

Poxxia.1547:

So .. what does this tell me?
Unfortunately what I read into this, is that the vast majority of thieves posting here, has no intention of giving something up in order to be able to 1vs1. In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”. The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.

Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

What are you talking about?!
Several of us have said that if we absolutely had to we’d gladly give up SB 5’s mobility to be able to 1v1 because NONE of us enjoy playing our current “role”. READ. OUR. POSTS. If you had done you’d know full well that we’ve said that several times.
I also have no idea how other classes having diversity has absolutely anything to do with us wanting diversity. In case you hadn’t noticed, every single Thief is currently pigeonholed into one or two builds (with one being foremost among them, and that’s DA/SA/TR) and every single Thief can only viably use the same exact weaponset – SB and D/P. What, you’re saying Thief being able to 1v1 would suddenly mean everyone has to run a build to counter it? That’s BS and you know it.
I also find your comments about us being selfish because we don’t want to give up our 1 remaining relevant strength, our mobility, in order to 1v1 and how that somehow impacts the need for diversity are, frankly, insulting and totally insane. You do realise that if we did that, and if every other profession did that, where we were only allowed to be good at ONE THING (which isn’t currently true of other professions btw) then literally everyone would be forced into one build and one playstyle? And then you guys would all complain that you’re being pigeonholed into singular roles and then Guild Wars may as well bring back the Holy Trinity because why tf not. Why we have to give up the only thing thats keeping us relevant (which is a SINGLE skill on a SINGLE weapon) just so that we can be competetive with every other profession in terms of 1v1 capability and even teamfight capability is totally beyond me and it’s blatant ignorance. And if you STILL refuse to see what me and every other Thief that has posted here is saying and continue to suggest we simply want to 1-shot everything and be OP and kitten, then I have absolutely nothing more to say to you and I’ll stand by my statement that you simply don’t like Thief.
How dare you talk about respect when you offer the Thief as a profession absolutely none whatsoever. You sit there and insult us and act as though we’re some sort of elitist cult that wants to be superior to every other profession, whilst not giving a kitten about any of the others. We have ALL said we do not want to be OP many many times, we do not want to go back to how we were in the past, we do not want to be able to beat anyone and anything, and we fully respect people who play professions other than Thief who have or do not have build diversity/viability. I don’t see how us wanting to be anything other than rez and decap-bots is insulting or disrespecting because it isn’t, thats called giving Thief the fair treatment it deserves just as every other profession does. The fact you seem to think Thief shouldn’t be on equal footing without being heavily nerfed in the only other area it CAN be nerfed (Sb 5) is YOU being disrespectful.
I just… I can’t understand you. I’m done.

Poxxia.1547:

No offense, but this WAS posted in the PvP-forum.
Take a look at your own forum at page 1:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/On-the-thief-s-1v1-capability/first#post5469873
tl:dr : Some thieves don’t exactly see things your way.

I’d also like to point out that, in the thread you link, most of the objective posts up to this point have generally agreed with what I’ve said.

So..

yeah.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Poxxia.1547:

So .. what does this tell me?
Unfortunately what I read into this, is that the vast majority of thieves posting here, has no intention of giving something up in order to be able to 1vs1. In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”. The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.

Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

What are you talking about?!
Several of us have said that if we absolutely had to we’d gladly give up SB 5’s mobility to be able to 1v1 because NONE of us enjoy playing our current “role”. READ. OUR. POSTS. If you had done you’d know full well that we’ve said that several times.
I also have no idea how other classes having diversity has absolutely anything to do with us wanting diversity. In case you hadn’t noticed, every single Thief is currently pigeonholed into one or two builds (with one being foremost among them, and that’s DA/SA/TR) and every single Thief can only viably use the same exact weaponset – SB and D/P. What, you’re saying Thief being able to 1v1 would suddenly mean everyone has to run a build to counter it? That’s BS and you know it.
I also find your comments about us being selfish because we don’t want to give up our 1 remaining relevant strength, our mobility, in order to 1v1 and how that somehow impacts the need for diversity are, frankly, insulting and totally insane. You do realise that if we did that, and if every other profession did that, where we were only allowed to be good at ONE THING (which isn’t currently true of other professions btw) then literally everyone would be forced into one build and one playstyle? And then you guys would all complain that you’re being pigeonholed into singular roles and then Guild Wars may as well bring back the Holy Trinity because why tf not. Why we have to give up the only thing thats keeping us relevant (which is a SINGLE skill on a SINGLE weapon) just so that we can be competetive with every other profession in terms of 1v1 capability and even teamfight capability is totally beyond me and it’s blatant ignorance. And if you STILL refuse to see what me and every other Thief that has posted here is saying and continue to suggest we simply want to 1-shot everything and be OP and kitten, then I have absolutely nothing more to say to you and I’ll stand by my statement that you simply don’t like Thief.
How dare you talk about respect when you offer the Thief as a profession absolutely none whatsoever. You sit there and insult us and act as though we’re some sort of elitist cult that wants to be superior to every other profession, whilst not giving a kitten about any of the others. We have ALL said we do not want to be OP many many times, we do not want to go back to how we were in the past, we do not want to be able to beat anyone and anything, and we fully respect people who play professions other than Thief who have or do not have build diversity/viability. I don’t see how us wanting to be anything other than rez and decap-bots is insulting or disrespecting because it isn’t, thats called giving Thief the fair treatment it deserves just as every other profession does. The fact you seem to think Thief shouldn’t be on equal footing without being heavily nerfed in the only other area it CAN be nerfed (Sb 5) is YOU being disrespectful.
I just… I can’t understand you. I’m done.

I actually – believe it or not – read every single post.
I even answered you, even if you didn’t respond to my question. So .. yeah.
If you want me to read what you write in the future, perhaps do me the courtesy of arranging you text a bit more … tidy?

I have no conception of “you” as a generalised thief. But we have to use some sort of words to describe the class and the players playing it. If it is our main class we are prone to bias – same goes for me, as a current “non-thief”.

I have no well-defined opinion about what should be done with the thief-balancing – nor can I recall I should have attempted to do so. Perhaps it isn’t me, who didn’t connect all the links properly? I am however of the opinion, that stealth+SB5 does create a potential omnipresence. Combined with the burst from stealth, I don’t find thieves useless in a team-setup. Is it really so strange, that in order to receive a buff in certain areas, something else needs to go? Compromising is a relatively common thing – I am not disrespecting you, by suggesting you a nerf in one area, in order to get a buff in another.

I can’t tell what the consequences would be if thieves had the omnipresence and the ability to 1vs1. Just without giving it much thought, I can’t think of running any other decapper. And I can’t see why that is healthy.

So yeah – feel free to think what you will.
Cheers

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Poxxia.1547:

No offense, but this WAS posted in the PvP-forum.
Take a look at your own forum at page 1:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/On-the-thief-s-1v1-capability/first#post5469873
tl:dr : Some thieves don’t exactly see things your way.

I’d also like to point out that, in the thread you link, most of the objective posts up to this point have generally agreed with what I’ve said.

So..

yeah.

“Objective posts” is your interpretation. All of them are subjective – I would even claim it is impossible to be anything else.
There are 2 saying “thieves are useless” and then there are 2 other saying something else.

PS: I am going to have some issues getting back to this thread (rl-thing for a few days). No disrespect intended

Poxxia.1547:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Poxxia.1547:

No offense, but this WAS posted in the PvP-forum.
Take a look at your own forum at page 1:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/On-the-thief-s-1v1-capability/first#post5469873
tl:dr : Some thieves don’t exactly see things your way.

I’d also like to point out that, in the thread you link, most of the objective posts up to this point have generally agreed with what I’ve said.

So..

yeah.

“Objective posts” is your interpretation. All of them are subjective – I would even claim it is impossible to be anything else.
There are 2 saying “thieves are useless” and then there are 2 other saying something else.

There are indeed objective posts in that thread that consider the factual advantages of thief and its matchups, regarding line of sighting, environmental advantage and the like.

Call it subjective if you like, semantics isn’t what this is about.

Of the two I think you are referring to, the first advocates “dont fight” against half of the classes, and the second does not take into account that non burst damage is just as crippling to the thief’s current health pool when asking for a reason as to why he would burn defensive cooldowns when not being bursted.

Still waiting to see any justification for the state of mesmers atm when they fill exact same role (+1) which apprently requires you to lose any capability to 1v1 yet mesmers are not affected by that trade off.

But, i see plenty of class discrimination by players that don’t use the thief class. What did it teach me? Apparently we should go to sections of classes that don’t perform so well and tell them they are “fine” and they should “l2p”. We reached the new level of toxicity and player harassment.
Worst part we actually have devs repeating same crap about +1 as some kind of mantra when they talk about thieves on POI yet don’t even dare to mention it when the discussion is about ANY OTHER CLASS in game.
Add to that the so called patch notes with changes to thieves that were NEVER implemented, total joke of an elite spec. I honestly can’t shake off a feeling that we are not wanted here and getting discriminated from all sides.

- You go in match, oh look 2 thieves on team: 99% of the time team will ask one of the thieves to switch. You don’t do it? You get verbally harassed, garanteed.
- You actually engage 1v1 even vs possibly bad player: 70% of the time someone on your team will harass you about it.
- You actually managed to beat someone or helped your teammates or rezzed someone: 50% garanteed someone will complain that you went to this point or enemy will spit toxic crap at you.
- You look at thief POI: dev responsible for thieves doesn’t know the traits, tells us with excitement how thieves are really really strong because they can +1 etc.
- You look at patch notes: hey guize we gonna nerf withdraw CD but it will receive tiny healing buff JK, almost 3 months later withdraw still didn’t get the healing buff. Oh and while we are at it, enjoy the backstab bug because we didn’t bother to log on thief EVEN ONCE.

I am pulling here some outworldly juking stunts to land measy 3k backstab… meanwhile other classes…………………………… yeah. “Fine” guize.

Poxxia.1547:

So .. what does this tell me?
Unfortunately what I read into this, is that the vast majority of thieves posting here, has no intention of giving something up in order to be able to 1vs1. In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”. The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.

Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

I’d be willing to give up our protection, regen, stability, and aegis to get so ability to stick around in combat. They could also strip all of our offensive traits out of our defensive lines. That seems like it would be a fair trade. I mean if I take a line like acro to get more dodges, the 10% damage and might on dodge should definitely be stripped out. Maybe they could lower our base health a tier too.

I have no idea why we can’t make this trade.

Edit: In addition, it’s not like thieves are asking to be made into one-shot beasts with enormous sustain in addition to it. There have been numerous threads talking about some sideways changes and buffs to traits and skills that are very weak. Here’s one from myself and one from a fellow thief Raiden.

Maugetarr.6823:

Poxxia.1547:

So .. what does this tell me?
Unfortunately what I read into this, is that the vast majority of thieves posting here, has no intention of giving something up in order to be able to 1vs1. In that regard, I find the request to be selfish and not based on creating more diversity in the game, but only more diversity for themselves and their preferred class.

When the evaluation of the past state was “decent”, I don’t see any effort in trying to see things “from the other side”. The same quality, that some thieves demand of other players/classes.

Therefore I can’t see any reason to contribute anymore. There is no point in arguing, when the respect isn’t mutual.
Bye.

I’d be willing to give up our protection, regen, stability, and aegis to get so ability to stick around in combat. They could also strip all of our offensive traits out of our defensive lines. That seems like it would be a fair trade. I mean if I take a line like acro to get more dodges, the 10% damage and might on dodge should definitely be stripped out. Maybe they could lower our base health a tier too.

I have no idea why we can’t make this trade.

10/10 clever.

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

There is a big difference between Mesmers and Thieves.

Thieves have way more mobility than Mesmers. Mesmers have only a 30 second cooldown teleport. Thieves have multiple teleports in the shortbow, and panic skills in the utility bar.

runeblade.7514:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

There is a big difference between Mesmers and Thieves.

Thieves have way more mobility than Mesmers. Mesmers have only a 30 second cooldown teleport. Thieves have multiple teleports in the shortbow, and panic skills in the utility bar.

Teleports should not be directly proportional to combat capability.

I’m not going to argue about portals, invulns, or on demand stuns because that isnt what this is about.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

runeblade.7514:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

There is a big difference between Mesmers and Thieves.

Thieves have way more mobility than Mesmers. Mesmers have only a 30 second cooldown teleport. Thieves have multiple teleports in the shortbow, and panic skills in the utility bar.

Teleports should not be directly proportional to combat capability.

I’m not going to argue about portals, invulns, or on demand stuns because that isnt what this is about.

In Conquest and Stronghold, mobility is a major key. What good is a mesmer if he can’t reach to the place where he is needed most in time?

runeblade.7514:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

runeblade.7514:

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

There is a big difference between Mesmers and Thieves.

Thieves have way more mobility than Mesmers. Mesmers have only a 30 second cooldown teleport. Thieves have multiple teleports in the shortbow, and panic skills in the utility bar.

Teleports should not be directly proportional to combat capability.

I’m not going to argue about portals, invulns, or on demand stuns because that isnt what this is about.

In Conquest and Stronghold, mobility is a major key. What good is a mesmer if he can’t reach to the place where he is needed most in time?

And that is well and good. I’m glad mesmers can be mobile.

That shouldnt cripple his combat capability.

That is the line of reasoning people are using to say thieves being bad at 1v1 is okay though. Meanwhile mesmer is oneshotting people from stealth, something that was still risky for thieves when they could do it, given that they did not and still do not have the evades and invulns that mesmer boasts, and that is apparently okay. And in terms of mobility, not only can they teleport large distances, they can bring their friends.

I will say this again. I’m not asking for instagibs. I’m asking for enough sustain to let my skills pay off against these kinds of advantages.

I’m willing to put in the work, but right now we cannot deal with what the game now throws at us, because our prior line for dealing with those things was deemed too strong by the community, and the dev responsible for our balance listened.

Skill floor is fine, but there’s no point when getting the win is feasibly impossible vs any respective class.

As long has thief has resbot powers, AOE stealth for the team, and amazing mobility, they should NOT be able to 1v1 many builds/classes at all. A thief running without SB and such, should (if the game were balanced) be able to 1v1. If this isn’t the case, other things needs buffing than the meta thief build.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

And that is well and good. I’m glad mesmers can be mobile.

That shouldnt cripple his combat capability.

That is the line of reasoning people are using to say thieves being bad at 1v1 is okay though. Meanwhile mesmer is oneshotting people from stealth, something that was still risky for thieves when they could do it, given that they did not and still do not have the evades and invulns that mesmer boasts, and that is apparently okay. And in terms of mobility, not only can they teleport large distances, they can bring their friends.

With a 72 second cooldown.

I will never understand the thieves that keep asking for the ability to 1v1. PvP is a team game. If PvP is a collection of 1v1, then D/P would never win tournaments.

I will say this again. I’m not asking for instagibs. I’m asking for enough sustain to let my skills pay off against these kinds of advantages.

Thieves have tons of sustain. It is called stealth, evasion, shadowstep. They have enough sustain to get the job done, just like every other meta burst build with a bonus of unparalleled mobility.

I’m willing to put in the work, but right now we cannot deal with what the game now throws at us, because our prior line for dealing with those things was deemed too strong by the community, and the dev responsible for our balance listened.

Skill floor is fine, but there’s no point when getting the win is feasibly impossible vs any respective class.

Its quite easy. Get another player to distract them, and then instagib them. PvP is a team game.

Quadox.7834:

As long has thief has resbot powers, AOE stealth for the team, and amazing mobility, they should NOT be able to 1v1 many builds/classes at all. A thief running without SB and such, should (if the game were balanced) be able to 1v1. If this isn’t the case, other things needs buffing than the meta thief build.

It isnt the case, since SB is used for running away at the moment (mostly, theres some good dps there on people not moving around.)

Don’t know how one would go about nerfing SB so that not taking it allows thieves to 1v1, but mesmer has two of the three you mentioned -and- currently has oneshot-worthy burst.

I wouldn’t call resbot a strength, either.

Well, if they fix the Daredevil Staff, 1v1 for the thief maybe possible again by giving up a lot of stealth(Staff-X). If not, thieves will still have their supporting role which they currently have(D/P-SB). Otherwise if you’re wanting to 1v1, you’ll have to look to play another profession. It’s unfortunate but true. No amount of bringing a problem to light or complaining on the forums will solve this problem because the vast majority of players on the forum think that it’s okay(Mentality: Thief is always picked in tournaments – OP, fine as it is, why are thieves complaining? Thief can’t possible be lacking). It may not be right, but that is what it comes down to.

I had a lot of fun with the Revenant this weekend. Will enjoy playing that when HoT comes out for 1v1.

Quadox.7834:

As long has thief has resbot powers, AOE stealth for the team, and amazing mobility, they should NOT be able to 1v1 many builds/classes at all. A thief running without SB and such, should (if the game were balanced) be able to 1v1. If this isn’t the case, other things needs buffing than the meta thief build.

Aw look, a Mesmer! I’m hardly surprised you guys are totally against actually having to THINK when you fight against a Thief. You poor, poor guys.
I seem to remember a very, very long period of time in which Mesmer was in a bad state and every single Mesmer and his/her mother was asking for buffs. This included being able to fulfill multiple roles and use a variety of viable builds instead of being pigeonholed into Shatter.
Funny how when your profession gets the buff treatment you so rightly deserved and Thief gets what you guys used to get, you suddenly forget your past troubles and start bashing on any suggestion that Thief is UP (which is the COMMON concensus among players. Try asking in map chat in Hotm: “Anyone here know how to counter Thief? They keep killing me” and watch yourself get laughed out of the park. Now lets replace “Thief” with “Mesmer” in that sentence and watch as you start crying.)
Also funny how silly your comment is at all considering that Mesmer currently has access to 2 out of the 3 things you said we have (that being AOE stealth and good mobility. Though, your stealth means you can “resbot” too, to a certain extent. You go gurl.) Oh and guess what? Mesmer is currently amazing at 1v1. Did anyone say to you that you can’t have AoE stealth and a skill that ports your entire team cross-map? Pretty sure they didn’t, so quit being a hypocrite.

runeblade.7514:

I will never understand the thieves that keep asking for the ability to 1v1. PvP is a team game. If PvP is a collection of 1v1, then D/P would never win tournaments.

1v1 is an aspect of team play. A player that always needs a backup class to even down an opponent is a drain on the team. That’s why two-thief teams have a habit of failing.

Thieves have tons of sustain. It is called stealth, evasion, shadowstep. They have enough sustain to get the job done, just like every other meta burst build with a bonus of unparalleled mobility.

Stealth is not sustain as it stands now. It requires desisting from combat and stops players from contesting points, not to mention it can be broken by certain classes rather easily.

Other two are correct.

Its quite easy. Get another player to distract them, and then instagib them. PvP is a team game.

1v1 is a facet of team play.

I shouldn’t have to see a player on a point and have to go get someone to help me contest it.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

As long has thief has resbot powers, AOE stealth for the team, and amazing mobility, they should NOT be able to 1v1 many builds/classes at all. A thief running without SB and such, should (if the game were balanced) be able to 1v1. If this isn’t the case, other things needs buffing than the meta thief build.

It isnt the case, since SB is used for running away at the moment (mostly, theres some good dps there on people not moving around.)

Don’t know how one would go about nerfing SB so that not taking it allows thieves to 1v1, but mesmer has two of the three you mentioned -and- currently has oneshot-worthy burst.

I wouldn’t call resbot a strength, either.

1. It’s one of the best classes for ressing, in level with bunkers.
2. Why nerf SB, I don’t want that.
3. A teef running things that aren’t good for mobility (pistol weapons for example) should be able to 1v1 much better than meta thief if the balance was right, since it would have low mobility.

IDICERI.4268:

Well, if they fix the Daredevil Staff, 1v1 for the thief maybe possible again by giving up a lot of stealth(Staff-X). If not, thieves will still have their supporting role which they currently have(D/P-SB). Otherwise if you’re wanting to 1v1, you’ll have to look to play another profession. It’s unfortunate but true. No amount of bringing a problem to light or complaining on the forums will solve this problem because the vast majority of players on the forum think that it’s okay(Mentality: Thief is always picked in tournaments – OP, fine as it is, why are thieves complaining? Thief can’t possible be lacking). It may not be right, but that is what it comes down to.

I had a lot of fun with the Revenant this weekend. Will enjoy playing that when HoT comes out for 1v1.

I agree with this, but the expansion pack shouldnt be our way to be viable either.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

runeblade.7514:

I will never understand the thieves that keep asking for the ability to 1v1. PvP is a team game. If PvP is a collection of 1v1, then D/P would never win tournaments.

1v1 is an aspect of team play. A player that always needs a backup class to even down an opponent is a drain on the team. That’s why two-thief teams have a habit of failing.

Thieves have tons of sustain. It is called stealth, evasion, shadowstep. They have enough sustain to get the job done, just like every other meta burst build with a bonus of unparalleled mobility.

Stealth is not sustain as it stands now. It requires desisting from combat and stops players from contesting points, not to mention it can be broken by certain classes rather easily.

Other two are correct.

Its quite easy. Get another player to distract them, and then instagib them. PvP is a team game.

1v1 is a facet of team play.

I shouldn’t have to see a player on a point and have to go get someone to help me contest it.

“A player that always needs a backup class to even down an opponent is a drain on the team”
Incorrect. Mesmer doesn’t 1v1 in tourneys. Thief doesn’t 1v1 in tourneys. Both still amazing. In soloq, still not a burden if you +1 and rotate.

Stealth helps survival and is better than pure sustain for burst classes. See PU mes > insp.

“I shouldn’t have to see a player on a point and have to go get someone to help me contest it.”

If you don’t like that, don’t play meta thief. Play some other builds. If there is no other build, this thread should be about buffing thief alternatives (pistol and whatnot). Not to be confused with buffing the current meta build.

From what I can tell, 99% of these discussions boil down to people who are salty that they used to get blown up by Thieves now mindlessly defending the status quo of neutered Thief as “balanced” or “working as intended”.

And even with all those nerfs, it’s the year 2015 and people are STILL trotting out the same old tired complaints about Thief from 2012. It seems some people won’t be happy unless the Thief profession is removed from the game…

Quadox.7834:

“A player that always needs a backup class to even down an opponent is a drain on the team”
Incorrect. Mesmer doesn’t 1v1 in tourneys. Thief doesn’t 1v1 in tourneys. Both still amazing. In soloq, still not a burden if you +1 and rotate.

Stealth helps survival and is better than pure sustain for burst classes. See PU mes > insp.

“I shouldn’t have to see a player on a point and have to go get someone to help me contest it.”

If you don’t like that, don’t play meta thief. Play some other builds. If there is no other build, this thread should be about buffing thief alternatives (pistol and whatnot). Not to be confused with buffing the current meta build.

Nonsense like this means Thieves spend more time in these threads defending themselves from responses to points no Thief actually made, than getting to the root of the problem!

No one is asking for the Thief meta build to be buffed. NO ONE. We are TIRED of D/P, TIRED TO DEATH. Having ONE weapon and trait build be viable is NOT FUN.

There are many of us—myself included—who have spent countless hours testing other builds in SPvP. None of them are viable. The Thief simply has too many accumulated weaknesses from years of reactive nerfs and lacking dev attention. In particular, the trait revamp in June really left Thieves behind the curve, but so few people play them (and everyone else seems to hate them so much) that no one actually noticed.

Condi build? Not playable, Thieves can’t output enough damaging conditions.
Durable or Bunker build? Not playable, Thieves are majorly lacking in survivability… if you run a non-Zerk/Marauder amulet, your damage evaporates and you still get killed near-instantly anyway.

So, your options? Zerk/Marauder and D/P + Shortbow. S/D + Shortbow also KINDA works, but a lot less well. Everything else is functionally unplayable in real SPvP.

Thieves don’t want more power or damage, we want more durability and OPTIONS. The same ones every other profession in the game has. Thief has the same max HP as Ele and Guardian and infinitely less of the durability through skills and traits.

Quadox.7834:

Incorrect. Mesmer doesn’t 1v1 in tourneys.

???

Thief doesn’t 1v1 in tourneys.

Because they’re forced to.

Stealth helps survival and is better than pure sustain for burst classes. See PU mes > insp.

PU doesnt contest points.

Quadox.7834:

If you don’t like that, don’t play meta thief. Play some other builds. If there is no other build, this thread should be about buffing thief alternatives (pistol and whatnot). Not to be confused with buffing the current meta build.

I never said anything about a build.

I’ll say it again.

Thief as a class is lacking sustain. Please fix.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Quadox.7834:

As long has thief has resbot powers, AOE stealth for the team, and amazing mobility, they should NOT be able to 1v1 many builds/classes at all. A thief running without SB and such, should (if the game were balanced) be able to 1v1. If this isn’t the case, other things needs buffing than the meta thief build.

Aw look, a Mesmer! I’m hardly surprised you guys are totally against actually having to THINK when you fight against a Thief. You poor, poor guys.
I seem to remember a very, very long period of time in which Mesmer was in a bad state and every single Mesmer and his/her mother was asking for buffs. This included being able to fulfill multiple roles and use a variety of viable builds instead of being pigeonholed into Shatter.
Funny how when your profession gets the buff treatment you so rightly deserved and Thief gets what you guys used to get, you suddenly forget your past troubles and start bashing on any suggestion that Thief is UP (which is the COMMON concensus among players. Try asking in map chat in Hotm: “Anyone here know how to counter Thief? They keep killing me” and watch yourself get laughed out of the park. Now lets replace “Thief” with “Mesmer” in that sentence and watch as you start crying.)
Also funny how silly your comment is at all considering that Mesmer currently has access to 2 out of the 3 things you said we have (that being AOE stealth and good mobility. Though, your stealth means you can “resbot” too, to a certain extent. You go gurl.) Oh and guess what? Mesmer is currently amazing at 1v1. Did anyone say to you that you can’t have AoE stealth and a skill that ports your entire team cross-map? Pretty sure they didn’t, so quit being a hypocrite.

You just wrote your entire post and made all those conclusions from my signature.
Never go full-kitten mode. Never.

I am not even going to read the entire post, as i saw “quit being a hypocrite” somewhere in there, which is possibly one of the most ineffective and wrong thing you could possibly come up with. Personally, i currently run an illusions mesmer build with Time Warp, no blind trait, no confounding suggestions, no PU, no Inspiration. I advocate for mesmer nerfs regurarly. Yet you think that one’s class decides one alligence. The assumption that i am biased towards mesmer makes me suspicious of your intentions.

You literally wrote a post with 99% content about mesmer in a thread about the state of thief, simply because i play mesmer. Concerning thief, i want thief to be able to fight, 1v1, 2v2, all that, but NOT while doing the things thief currently does. It would be absolutely insane.

“Thief is UP (which is the COMMON concensus among players”. Source? Currently, pretty much every good player knows thief is not even close to a bad class for team pvp. Again, if you want to play a fighting role, then by all means, buff things that thief currently does not use- other roles.

PS. For the record, thief is currently played by pretty much every single team. Mesmer during the time you mention was played in about 3 teams- by only amazing players at the class.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes, it’s late and the guy im replying to made about 2000 accusations towards me so he’s not worth correcting grammar for.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

If you don’t like that, don’t play meta thief. Play some other builds. If there is no other build, this thread should be about buffing thief alternatives (pistol and whatnot). Not to be confused with buffing the current meta build.

I never said anything about a build.

I’ll say it again.

Thief as a class is lacking sustain. Please fix.

I agree, there is no tank/bruiser thief. Doesn’t mean thief is unviable in other roles, which people seem to believe. This is something to look at.

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

If you don’t like that, don’t play meta thief. Play some other builds. If there is no other build, this thread should be about buffing thief alternatives (pistol and whatnot). Not to be confused with buffing the current meta build.

I never said anything about a build.

I’ll say it again.

Thief as a class is lacking sustain. Please fix.

I agree, there is no tank/bruiser thief. Doesn’t mean thief is unviable in other roles, which people seem to believe. This is something to look at.

It is viable only in one role.

And even then it has lower sustain than is necessary.

Thats the whole problem.

Maris.3164:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?

Well, you could learn to rotate to +1 fights instead of trying to play PvP like it’s some wild west shootout. =P

I mean, learning how to rotate to give fights the +1 advantage at the right time is what give thieves the advantage. They can +1 fights at the right time more than any other class.

Mesmers have a lot of mobility, but their personal mobility doesn’t match their team mobility (portal). So, they can give a port to win a clutch point very often, but they can’t rotate between points by themselves as much since their Z-axis ports are on cooldowns.

And honestly…people here love to talk up a lot of hypotheticals, but the proof is in the pudding. Ask Abjured what the state of thief is. They seem to be doing pretty well winning WTS with a thief, lol.

Dahkeus.8243:

Well, you could learn to rotate to +1 fights instead of trying to play PvP like it’s some wild west shootout. =P

I mean, learning how to rotate to give fights the +1 advantage at the right time is what give thieves the advantage. They can +1 fights at the right time more than any other class.

Mesmers have a lot of mobility, but their personal mobility doesn’t match their team mobility (portal). So, they can give a port to win a clutch point very often, but they can’t rotate between points by themselves as much since their Z-axis ports are on cooldowns.

And honestly…people here love to talk up a lot of hypotheticals, but the proof is in the pudding. Ask Abjured what the state of thief is. They seem to be doing pretty well winning WTS with a thief, lol.

Yes, Thief is really effective in that one role (mobile decapper and opportunist +1’er). And yet, as always, the assumption is that if someone is complaining about Thief, they must be bad at that role, and/or want Thief to be overpowered in 1v1 combat.

It’s nice that Thieves have a near-guaranteed spot in high level SPvP teams, it really is, but it’s through one narrowly defined build/playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable. It’s also worth considering that not everyone is a high level Thief playing in premade tournaments. Some of us just want to be able to enjoy our profession in solo queue SPvP, which seems like a fair thing to ask.

Quadox.7834:

I agree, there is no tank/bruiser thief. Doesn’t mean thief is unviable in other roles, which people seem to believe. This is something to look at.

Actually, it kinda does, as that’s the entire point people like me are making. Thief doesn’t have the versatility to be viable in SPvP as anything but one VERY rigidly defined playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable (especially in solo queue).

Condi Thief? Not realistic atm, due both to issues with Thief applying damaging conditions, and the wonky state of condition cleanse in SPvP in general.

Bruiser Thief? Completely non-viable, because Thief lacks the durability that other low max HP professions like Ele and Guardian have (blocks, stability, percentage damage reduction, etc). As Thief, this means you can either run a glass cannon stat package and have a chance of doing something, or run something else and do no damage ON TOP of still getting blown up just as fast.

I just want some other options beyond glass cannon D/P + Shortbow decapper Thief. Just about EVERY other profession (save maybe Ranger) has this versatility… are people still so traumatized by 2013 Thief that they’d deny it to us too?

Why do some think that by replacing SB thief will be able to stay in combat easier? What class succeeds double melee without mobility and disengage abilities? If you’re going to use staff for disengage might as well use the bow. Use a range set not that’s not SB?? Have you seen the state of pistols?? Even the few p/d and /p players disappeared when “he who knows his name” thought he had good ideas, p/d is hiding in WvW behind runes,food and dire gear.

“He who knows his name” gave us staff and Acro 2.0 instead of that possible ranged option and makes no mention of base thief. Is he discussion shy as well? I thought it was only for cameras.

Amante.8109:

Dahkeus.8243:

Well, you could learn to rotate to +1 fights instead of trying to play PvP like it’s some wild west shootout. =P

I mean, learning how to rotate to give fights the +1 advantage at the right time is what give thieves the advantage. They can +1 fights at the right time more than any other class.

Mesmers have a lot of mobility, but their personal mobility doesn’t match their team mobility (portal). So, they can give a port to win a clutch point very often, but they can’t rotate between points by themselves as much since their Z-axis ports are on cooldowns.

And honestly…people here love to talk up a lot of hypotheticals, but the proof is in the pudding. Ask Abjured what the state of thief is. They seem to be doing pretty well winning WTS with a thief, lol.

Yes, Thief is really effective in that one role (mobile decapper and opportunist +1’er). And yet, as always, the assumption is that if someone is complaining about Thief, they must be bad at that role, and/or want Thief to be overpowered in 1v1 combat.

It’s nice that Thieves have a near-guaranteed spot in high level SPvP teams, it really is, but it’s through one narrowly defined build/playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable. It’s also worth considering that not everyone is a high level Thief playing in premade tournaments. Some of us just want to be able to enjoy our profession in solo queue SPvP, which seems like a fair thing to ask.

Quadox.7834:

I agree, there is no tank/bruiser thief. Doesn’t mean thief is unviable in other roles, which people seem to believe. This is something to look at.

Actually, it kinda does, as that’s the entire point people like me are making. Thief doesn’t have the versatility to be viable in SPvP as anything but one VERY rigidly defined playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable (especially in solo queue).

Condi Thief? Not realistic atm, due both to issues with Thief applying damaging conditions, and the wonky state of condition cleanse in SPvP in general.

Bruiser Thief? Completely non-viable, because Thief lacks the durability that other low max HP professions like Ele and Guardian have (blocks, stability, percentage damage reduction, etc). As Thief, this means you can either run a glass cannon stat package and have a chance of doing something, or run something else and do no damage ON TOP of still getting blown up just as fast.

I just want some other options beyond glass cannon D/P + Shortbow decapper Thief. Just about EVERY other profession (save maybe Ranger) has this versatility… are people still so traumatized by 2013 Thief that they’d deny it to us too?

Finally someone is starting to hit the nail on the head. The real question is will thief be viable in solo que when leagues come out in the expansion. If you haven’t played solo que as a thief in conquest it can be quite painful. It has already been established that thief can’t and shouldn’t be 1v1ing in conquest thats a given. What about when the thief and an ally run to a point and there is a 2v2. A premade team can easily deal with this by communicating to one another alright we can’t 2v2 this, we need back up, or switch to another point. Communicating this in solo que is kitten near impossible. I’ve gotten so much crap for leaving that point to find a fight I can +1 “what are you doing? fight on point” or the worst is when I am trying to reach a teammate that dies before I reach him and the opponent resets as I get there and I have to turn back because of the 1v1 situation, I get the casual “noob thief stay out of ranked if you running around doing nothing”.

Amante.8109:

Dahkeus.8243:

Well, you could learn to rotate to +1 fights instead of trying to play PvP like it’s some wild west shootout. =P

I mean, learning how to rotate to give fights the +1 advantage at the right time is what give thieves the advantage. They can +1 fights at the right time more than any other class.

Mesmers have a lot of mobility, but their personal mobility doesn’t match their team mobility (portal). So, they can give a port to win a clutch point very often, but they can’t rotate between points by themselves as much since their Z-axis ports are on cooldowns.

And honestly…people here love to talk up a lot of hypotheticals, but the proof is in the pudding. Ask Abjured what the state of thief is. They seem to be doing pretty well winning WTS with a thief, lol.

Yes, Thief is really effective in that one role (mobile decapper and opportunist +1’er). And yet, as always, the assumption is that if someone is complaining about Thief, they must be bad at that role, and/or want Thief to be overpowered in 1v1 combat.

It’s nice that Thieves have a near-guaranteed spot in high level SPvP teams, it really is, but it’s through one narrowly defined build/playstyle that a lot of people simply don’t find enjoyable. It’s also worth considering that not everyone is a high level Thief playing in premade tournaments. Some of us just want to be able to enjoy our profession in solo queue SPvP, which seems like a fair thing to ask.

Not sure if you’ve missed many of the posts here, but there are people saying that thieves aren’t good in PvP and think that they can’t even fill this role and/or that this role doesn’t help a team win games.

As for solo q, you can play this role just as well and finding undefended points is even easier.

If you’re saying that you just don’t like playing the mobile decap/+1 role that thief works with…well there’s plenty of other professions that do the other more generic roles. Sure, some additional roles would be nice, but that doesn’t mean that the thief is in a bad spot in its’ current state.