Guild Wars 2

Trickery. Gonna nitpick, I’m bored, this is constructive. Time to pick one thing every day/week/whenever to say its bad.

So Trickery- it has a trait that literally makes our class function. It’s basically like playing Guardian with only two virtues or Warrior with 2 bars of adrenaline, or Necro with 2/3 a shroud. You get it. Preparedness needs to be baseline. Also, wtf is Lead Attacks? It encourages the player to NOT spend initiative and punishes you for doing so in an inverse manner. Hey Mr Mesmer, I know you need your spells to be effective, but we’ll start deducting damage for doing so. Just stick to your autos. No really, we will take your damage away. Also, why is Bewildering Ambush here and not Mug? Please elaborate. Same thing for that Pressure Striking and Uncatchable. This line is CLEARLY for steal and initiative, but then you add condi application and stuff. No, does not fit. Move it.

Preparedness being baseline uncripples the class and CREATES build diversity. Taking Lead Attacks away and just applying 7.5% (the perfect median of 1-15%) flat damage to all Thief abilities/utilities makes sense. Preparedness becomes: taking damage bestows Initiative. Voila, same idea, more intuitive, less required. Lead Attacks… I just don’t know. Killing a foe restores 3 init? I just.. I’m lost. This is like some of those Mesmer traits (that Mantra one iirc, from pre June 23rd).

Edit: And another thing. Flanking Strikes has two problems. One, same name as sword 3. Yep. Same name with an added S. Also, this trait is singularly outdone by a sigil. Why does no one take this trait I wonder? OH! Cuz a sigil makes this thing a chump. “But if gives fury” Ye, so does CS. You want Fury, go CS. You want quickness, just take the kitten sigil. This trait is utter garbage. It never is going to stunbreak you. Ever. It takes effect on your hit, not theirs. THIS might have been a good stunbreak for acrobatics. “Break stun and gain fury/quickness as well as refilling your entire endurance” but no its here. In the mandatory line. Fighting for a trait that provides a million times more benefits than that one. Which is beaten by sigil. I could go on, but please. You guys know, I know, the dev probably knows.

Serious Thought.5394:

Also, wtf is Lead Attacks? It encourages the player to NOT spend initiative and punishes you for doing so in an inverse manner. Hey Mr Mesmer, I know you need your spells to be effective, but we’ll start deducting damage for doing so. Just stick to your autos. No really, we will take your damage away.

This is not true. Lead Attack adds damage between 1% and 15% — it doesn’t take away.

Yes but I said inversely. Think about it like old Mantras. You were punished for using Mantra’s because you gained damage for accumulating them and lost damage for using them.

Likewise, we accumulate damage for NOT spending initiative (our very class mechanic over just some silly skill) and lose it for playing the game logically i.e. spending initiative. That’s how we lose damage. This trait singularly discourages using your 2-5 abilities because you lose damage.

I… I actually use Bewildering Ambush, Pressure Striking, and uncatchable, and would lose about a 1/2 of my build functionality with out them.. <<…

I’m not saying delete. I’m saying move. Somewhere makes more sense. I’d personally like DA to just go full condi, its most of the way there already. Daggers go poison, steals go poison, poison goes weakness, root on 50% hp, poison does more damage, traps do vuln, trap for poison stuff on heal. Improv to Trickery, Bewildering in its place. Mug merged to Thrill of Crime or Bountiful Theft, replaced with Uncatchable. Pressure Striking on 20% more damage for execution and that moved to CS? Hidden Killer only gets used for Backstab, make Backstab critical chance 100% and replace HK with Exec? Like, so much is out of place. I hope people 100% read my wall of text this time…I’m saying exactly what my wall says >.>

Edit: Gonna show it for you. Cuz I barely got what I typed, which means I probably confused you and several other people if I can barely understand myself o.O

DA- The minors: Stealing applies poisonX2, downed applies poisonX1. Poison applies Weakness. New GM minor- Increase condi dmg to weakened foes by 10%. Apply that 10% dps elsewhere, possibly just baseline it because to be fair, the sets need it. Really badly. The Adept Majors: Dagger abilities will apply poison (remove rng), Uncatchable trait, Heal applies Needle Trap. The Master Majors: Master Trapper thing, root when target drop belows 50% hp (no longer need to hit, condi works too. condi line op), Pressure Striking. New GMs: Poison does more damage, Bewildering Ambush, applying weakness applies burningX2 (icd).

Trickery: Minors are: Stealing gives initiative, taking damage grants initiative, killing a foe restores 3 initiative. Adept Majors: Mug, Thrill of the Crime, some alternate amazing non-garbage version of pressure striking. Master Majors: Bountiful, Trickster thing, Improvisation. GrandMaster Majors: Quick Pockets (buffed), Sleight of Hand, Dropping below 50% hp restores all initiative.

Executioner replaces Hidden Killer, no changes to CS as of yet. Well, I mean Ankle Shots becoming Ricochet =P but thats it.

Serious Thought.5394:

Yes but I said inversely. Think about it like old Mantras. You were punished for using Mantra’s because you gained damage for accumulating them and lost damage for using them.

Lead Attack is exactly functioning as it is designed…it gives your initial attack a big boost while the rest of your attack will gradually receive less buff.

If you have full initiative and in stealth, your backstab will receive +15% damage boost.

Your first Vault or Unload will still receive +10% damage boost.

Even at +1% boost it’s still good because that’s the same bonus with a stack vulnerability.

Likewise, we accumulate damage for NOT spending initiative (our very class mechanic over just some silly skill) and lose it for playing the game logically i.e. spending initiative. That’s how we lose damage. This trait singularly discourages using your 2-5 abilities because you lose damage.

I don’t agree with the trait discouraging the use of skill 2-5, because just as I’ve said, even a 1% boost is still a good boost. Saying that it’s not is the same as saying that 1 stack of vulnerability isn’t good either.

I get what you are saying, but wouldn’t it make sense to be swapped with something more focused on initiation then over something that discourages skill use? I don’t know, like entering a fight procs a mini Assassin’s signet- your next 3 attacks do 15% more? Or perhaps your first attack from out of combat (like Warrior’s Berserker Fury trait in Arms) does 30% more, kinda reincarnate the terror of Backstab again? I don’t know, its just an overall bad trait no matter how you try to sell it back. Each % applies a vuln theoretically? Great, why doesn’t it affect condi? And why would I willingly remove Vuln from them?

Like how no one argued preparedness, anet do it. Preparedness baseline.

Serious Thought.5394:

I get what you are saying, but wouldn’t it make sense to be swapped with something more focused on initiation then over something that discourages skill use? I don’t know, like entering a fight procs a mini Assassin’s signet- your next 3 attacks do 15% more?

To be honest, we already have a lot of damage boost and what we really need is a reliable survival trait or some utility.

Lead Attack can even function like CiS but instead of blind on stealth LA passively applies blind to your next attack whenever your initiative is full.

Each % applies a vuln theoretically? Great, why doesn’t it affect condi?

When it comes to damage boost, it is the same as vulnerability.

And of course vulnerability is still better when it comes to condition damage boost and party boost in addition to damage boost.

And why would I willingly remove Vuln from them?

You’re looking at it half-empty and I’m looking at it half-full.

I don’t see it as removing, rather adding.

If I have 4 init left, I’ll be glad to add 1% damage upon using Heartseeker.
Or add 4% to my Auto-attack.

Like how no one argued preparedness, anet do it. Preparedness baseline.

I have no problem with this. 12 is a strange number to begin with.

So you’d keep Lead Attacks over an 8% damage increase in all weapon sets that Thief owns and a new Minor stating killing a foe restores 3 initiative?

Serious Thought.5394:

So you’d keep Lead Attacks over an 8% damage increase in all weapon sets that Thief owns and a new Minor stating killing a foe restores 3 initiative?

In the meantime, yes, keep LA as is.

It’s not that I don’t want what you’re suggesting, rather it’s not something we need right now.

Fair. Well then, I’ma whine on Acro tomorrow or the day after. Acro needs halp. XD Then traps/venoms. Then Signets. I got a plan ;D

I think OP made some good points and I wanted to discuss on more but since this topic is hidden here in the thief forum, I’d pass over.
Heck we cannot even have, after 2 years of suggestions, 15ini baseline that alone would open more build diversity.

Lead Attacks could do something like “Autoattacks build up stacks on opponent. Next skill that uses initiative removes these stacks to deal extra damage based on stacks” (maybe max 5 stacks, every stack increases damage by 2%?)

or maybe initiative skills build up stacks and using steal on that target removes stacks to give initiative based on stacks. i dunno

EDIT: in general the only thing i miss is giving every traitline a general direction of what it wants to do. CS should be mandatory in power builds, DA in condi builds, trickery should focus on the thief mechanics (steal/initiative), acrobatics and shadow arts should be the choice for being defensive.

i know it wouldn’t change too much about builds but in a perfect world you could choose to go power wich locks CS and then you can decide between SA or acro for defensive builds. trickery would be locked in my opinion. unless you want to be cele thief (lol) wich lets you swap trickery for DA

Trickery:
Adept Minor: Stealing restores 4 initiative.
Master Minor: Stealing heals you and applies damage, does not crit (mug).
Grandmaster Minor: Spending Initiative raises damage per initiative (same as lead in reverse) buff per initiative lasts 2 seconds.
Adept Master 1: Thrill of the Crime.
Adept Master 2: Flanking Strikes, cooldown down to 30 seconds buff durations down to 4s.
Adept Master 3: Gaining a boon grants 1 initiative, 1 second cooldown.
Master Major 1: Bountiful Theft.
Master Major 2: Trick cooldown reduced by 20 seconds, removes 2 conditions, and grants fury (yes, I copied Ranger’s survival trait).
Master Major 3: Inflicting a condition restores 1 initiative, 1 second cooldown.
Grandmaster Major 1: Sleight of hand also resets a utility skill cooldown (not work on elite or heal, just utility).
Grandmaster Major 2: Upper hand (also now reduces weapon swap cooldown by 20%).
Grandmaster Major 3: Restoring 1% of your hp restores 1 initiative.

Uncatchable, Pressure Strike, and Bewildering Ambush moved to DA. DA focused to condi. Preparedness made baseline, Lead attacks removed and all weapon skills given 7.5% more damage. … I got bored and wanted to post that XD

Please don’t forget that Flanking Strikes DOESNT synergize with ANY other thief traits, making Trickster that much more unattractive. When it had a 30s cd with trickster, it at least was a low enough cd you could steal at a target while stunned or reviving someone and have a decent chance of getting a stunbreak, condition removal, and quickness buff. Not ideal, but at least usable, specially when coupled with Improv, since it could be recharged along with the rest of the tricks.

As is, the tree has all of two or three build options, with at least 3 traits that probably shouldn’t ever be used.

Too bad mentioning these bugs on this forum is the definition of beating a dead horse…

TLDR: Flanking is worse than described. kitten fix this, the only reason this tree is used at all is the minors and the fact our other trees are jank.