Guild Wars 2

Hi. I’m looking for some constructive advice on how to deal with this roaming condi thief build as a rifle engi.

I’m not really sure what I could possibly be doing against this. I can’t even think of much I could do to escape aside from pop sneak gyro and run very very far away, but that still wouldn’t work if they got their steal+condi combo off.

very hard match for a rifle engi due to targeting/stealth, but sneak gyro immediately, heal up, detection pulse, magnet, prybar, rifle cc rotation. grenades at your feet when they invis… dodgetrops will still eat you up. seek shelter…

His build is reliant on venoms and cloak and dagger. Once you see the venoms appear on his bar it becomes imperative that you dodge his next attack. Elixar clense as a backup. After his venoms are gone his main source of damage are bleeds. Generosity and Cleansing(if kits) sigils tend to be effective. Dodging cloak and dagger is important too. If you can negate CnD he loses a considerable amount of healing and damage. P/D is always annoying to play against but the skill cap is relatively low.

Re: Mahkno
Hmm. Yeah. I might have tried that there, but my Sneak Gyro had maybe 10s left on cooldown. I think I would still need to retreat and try to break combat though, because I was taking enough condi to kill me just from that one steal combo. This is also risky because any attacks to Sneak Gyro itself are usually within aoe range to hit me even if I’m stealthed. Eg. Shortbow autos will just bounce off sneak gyro and hit me.

Doomdesire.9365:

His build is reliant on venoms and cloak and dagger. Once you see the venoms appear on his bar it becomes imperative that you dodge his next attack. Elixar clense as a backup. After his venoms are gone his main source of damage are bleeds. Generosity and Cleansing(if kits) sigils tend to be effective. Dodging cloak and dagger is important too. If you can negate CnD he loses a considerable amount of healing and damage. P/D is always annoying to play against but the skill cap is relatively low.

Elixir cleanse is only available if I’m running that trait line and elixir skills, which I’m not here. Also, that’s only 1 condi per elixir, and I’ve got ~5-6 condis on me.

Do you think I would have survived if I’d burned two dodges immediately after getting jumped (and the cc wore off)?

Also note that he’s in stealth after the steal ambush and the attacks are too fast for reflexes. I’d have to be dodging blind in anticipation of another burst after the cc.

You can watch the video in my signature for some insight into one variation on this kind of build.

The advice to watch his bar isn’t always as helpful because I often load venoms in stealth. The better advice is: dodge cloak and dagger. A lot of damage can be avoided that way. Also, be ready to use your bubble-reflect shield.

I can’t give advice of what condition clears to take as engi/scrapper however.

coro.3176:

Elixir cleanse is only available if I’m running that trait line and elixir skills, which I’m not here. Also, that’s only 1 condi per elixir, and I’ve got ~5-6 condis on me.

The trait line isn’t really necessary. I’m talking specifically about elixir c, which can negate most of his venom effects. Poison from his venoms and confusion was what absolutely killed you here(did something to the tune of 16-18k from the moment he hit you to the moment you went down) and elixir C would have probably saved you. Regardless, if you’re not running decent condi cleanse(such as in this video) then there’s no point trying to fight a P/D. You’ll die nearly every time.

Do you think I would have survived if I’d burned two dodges immediately after getting jumped (and the cc wore off)?

Also note that he’s in stealth after the steal ambush and the attacks are too fast for reflexes. I’d have to be dodging blind in anticipation of another burst after the cc.

Remember stacking stealth with his weapon set is not easy. He’s not running any utility stealth(bandits defense/venom/shadowstep/withdraw), no D/P offhand. His only source of stealth is through steal and through cloak and dagger. Survive his original burst using elixir c/anticipated dodges/anticipated invuls, then deny him cloak and dagger.

Another thing is that the only source of CC for the thief in the video would have been basi, so gaining distance in fear of interrupts is unnecessary. Really the only time you should worry about interrupts from thief is when he’s running pistol offhand or using sleight of hand(and steal hasn’t just been used). The other interrupts that thieves have are either easy to negate or no thief runs them

I used to use Lyssa runes during the soldier rifle meta, they work nicely with sneak gyro to cleanse an entire condi burst. Also, if you manage to reflect his venoms with either the turret reflect trait in inventions or bulwark gyro toolbelt you’ll hurt him pretty badly too ^^

even without knowing your build i’d suggest dropping rocket boots for elixer gun. super elixer, healing mist, and acid bomb in healing turret water field could have made a huge difference. then preemptive dodging, perfect playing, acts of g-d, etc etc etc

but yeah, solo roaming as rifle engi in this condi meta is hard as hell. but you know… purity of purpose xD

Ah wow. I hadn’t even considered that. Lyssa runes could really help there! I’m using Runes of Strength for some might on kit swap and +% damage.

I’m running Rocket Boots over Elixir Gun just because they’re fun and I like the skill. I do realize they get me killed a lot of the time because they’re not a stun break and are strictly worse than the kit.

Yay, I’m famous, that’s me!

gnotshr.9136:

Yay, I’m famous, that’s me!

wots ur build m8?

you misplay at start of the fight you need to clear confusion before any other action.

just be happy he did not open with double needle trap though that basically free win vs any class lol.

Mahkno.7593:

gnotshr.9136:

Yay, I’m famous, that’s me!

wots ur build m8?

In that fight I was running:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqYVn0MBFmilOBGNB8PhFYCz7LcGGRzhwSYLULBEAKAA-TVyCQBH7BA4tjAgnU/BQ6DowhAQg7PkIlgA4EAkFlfZGGAGCRAc3d3VxuRIEwi1A-w

gnotshr.9136:

In that fight I was running:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqYVn0MBFmilOBGNB8PhFYCz7LcGGRzhwSYLULBEAKAA-TVyCQBH7BA4tjAgnU/BQ6DowhAQg7PkIlgA4EAkFlfZGGAGCRAc3d3VxuRIEwi1A-w

awesome. thanks!

A solid build although it lacks some condition clear compared to, for example, a build running SA with a different heal.

It does more damage though, so that is good. I used to run deadly arts before Daredevil and Acro were buffed. Not a bad choice without giving up Daredevil for the extra dodges (and caltrops).

gnotshr.9136:

Yay, I’m famous, that’s me!

Heh. Well done. I will say it’s not much fun to play against. It’s literally impossible to catch a roaming thief with any non-thief class. Mobility is just insane.

coro.3176:

gnotshr.9136:

Yay, I’m famous, that’s me!

Heh. Well done. I will say it’s not much fun to play against. It’s literally impossible to catch a roaming thief with any non-thief class. Mobility is just insane.

I’ve solo roamed with Ranger, Engie, and even gave Guardian a try for a while. The issue I run into is that packs of 5 + people love to chase the solo guy around the map endlessly, so I always end up back on the thief.

As others have said, avoiding the CnD is going to be your best chance, but that’s often easier said than done. Watching for the Venom will generally help. I’ve also fought another rifle engie a few times this match up that uses Elixir S. Between the Sneaky Gyro and the Elixir S they had moderate success landing their burst and avoiding mine.

I also fought a tanky Scrapper today or yesterday who I couldn’t really do much against. In fact they sent me a message saying “Your build tickles my build.” They were using hammer, but builds can always be tweaked.

Don’t be afraid to change around and try out new traits and utilities, sometimes you will be surprised by what works. I used to run HGH Rifle Engie, and between the cleanses and might stacking the build worked very well.

However, in that engagement I caught you completely by surprise, so the result wasn’t surprising. Just keep at it, you’ll eventually find a place where you are comfortable and will be able to excel.

Yeah, I just refuse to run hammer because I don’t like the playstyle. It’s very rotation-based. Rifle is more reactive.

Even if you didn’t surprise me, I don’t think there’s much I could have done with my build there. I am considering rune of Lyssa though, and if Sneak Gyro was off cooldown, it may have helped me get away and turn the tables. Elixir S is really dangerous against condi too, because it doesn’t cleanse anything and you still take condition damage while shrunk.

Like, if I’d Elixir S’d after your first burst, I’d probably be dead because that’d be 3-4 seconds of taking condi damage, then another 1 second to get the heal turret cleanse off.

coro.3176:

Yeah, I just refuse to run hammer because I don’t like the playstyle. It’s very rotation-based. Rifle is more reactive.

Even if you didn’t surprise me, I don’t think there’s much I could have done with my build there. I am considering rune of Lyssa though, and if Sneak Gyro was off cooldown, it may have helped me get away and turn the tables. Elixir S is really dangerous against condi too, because it doesn’t cleanse anything and you still take condition damage while shrunk.

Well, I was referring a bit more to the stealth than the stun break, although if you time it right you can negate my steal/burst with the stun break. I can only steal every 26 seconds, keep that in mind.

The good thing about rifle over hammer is that it can keep the pressure from range, so if you catch me in the open field where I can’t LOS you, you will have better success than with the hammer. Its the same thing with rifle warriors, they give me more problems than melee only warriors.

I don’t know if the match up will change tonight, but if you want to set up some duels, let me know, I don’t mind helping you figure out how to beat me.

Another thing is that he had the drop on you off the bat. A thief who manages to get the initial drop on you, with that much burst will be very hard to deal with. Regardless of condi or not. To be honest that thief played it perfectly in the video except for one thing. He should have stealth stomped you. Maybe he had no stealth proc, or maybe he just screwed up, but had you been fighting me and i got the drop on you like that, you’d have been dead before your buddy arrived.

Normally in a 1v1 with a thief, you cycle through your defensive abilities while doing damage to me, but because he jumped you before you had a chance toprepare it was his match.

Gnot could also have combo’ed his pistol attack with a throw gunk for extra confusion stacks.

I’m also willing to set up some duels if you want some extra experience fighting this kind of build generally.

Condi thief is really forgiving, to the point where you’re better off just running away. Even if you negate his burst and dodge his CNDs, he can almost certainly disengage to avoid dying.

If you want to fight, here are some things to consider:
First and foremost, you need to deny him stealth as much as you can. This involves dodging the CnD. It also means making sure not to fight near objects/NPCs (which he can CnD off of). If there are animals or objects nearby, then find another battleground – you’ll never win unless he sucks (then again, the condi thief build generally draws weak players, so you never know). If you have the expansion, stealth gyro’s toolbelt skill is also really helpful.

Then you need some way to negate his damage. If you have scrapper, bulwark gyro gives you an instacasat reflect field, which you can use after he mug+cnds you. The reflect will negate his stealth burst. Run elixir elixir cleanse w/ e-gun, along with a couple of elixirs (B and C are good) and you’ll have plenty of condi-cleanse to negate the bleeds he relies on for dmg.

Then you need to be specced gear-wise to do enough damage to kill him in a couple of CC combos. If he’s just slowly losing the fight, he’ll disengage and reset. So you need to have enough zerker gear to kill burst him down quickly.

Condi thief playing D/D should not be using CnD much. It’s wasting initiative if it’s trying to stealth for extended periods of time without D/P.

Playing berserker will not kill a condi Daredevil either, unless they’re horrible. There is not enough burst in this game currently to counterburst a dire daredevil played even somewhat competently. And that’s coming from me.

DeceiverX.8361:

Condi thief playing D/D should not be using CnD much. It’s wasting initiative if it’s trying to stealth for extended periods of time without D/P.

Playing berserker will not kill a condi Daredevil either, unless they’re horrible. There is not enough burst in this game currently to counterburst a dire daredevil played even somewhat competently. And that’s coming from me.

• Wait for death blossom
• Burst damage at end of death blossom
• Sorry DecieverX I run DD condi Thief and know exactly how every class can kill it.
• you are correct about CnD though. It’s a waste of resources

I’m curious what this thief build is… how is he getting both condi and damage boosts from kills?

Link.1049:

I’m curious what this thief build is… how is he getting both condi and damage boosts from kills?

It’s linked above, but here it is again.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqYVn0MBFmilOBGNB8PhFYCz7LcGGRzhwSYLULBEAKAA-TVyCQBH7BA4tjAgnU/BQ6DowhAQg7PkIlgA4EAkFlfZGGAGCRAc3d3VxuRIEwi1A-w

What you’re seeing is the 6th effect on the runes.

Condie thief has no mobility exept steal so just run away and shoot from the distance.

Urejt.5648:

Condie thief has no mobility exept steal so just run away and shoot from the distance.

^ Didn’t watch the video.

My version runs Shadowstep at 40 seconds and Steal at 20 seconds.

So over a 40 second time period I can jump a total of 4800 distance just between those two abilities. Add in perma-swiftness and Unhindered Combatant along with shortbow 5.

That is thief mobility.

@Gnotshr Whats the reason for the mix trinkets, instead of pure dire?

Ash.2059:

@Gnotshr Whats the reason for the mix trinkets, instead of pure dire?

Back when I bought the trinkets they didn’t have pure Dire; the stat difference between the two is pretty minor so I haven’t felt like spending the money on change them. Pure Dire might very well work better since this build doesn’t rely on crits for damage.

However, I have been thinking about trying Trailblazer trinkets. I recently changed to the Thorn Runes from Torment Runes and the extended duration has been quite lovely.

emkelly.2371:

DeceiverX.8361:

Condi thief playing D/D should not be using CnD much. It’s wasting initiative if it’s trying to stealth for extended periods of time without D/P.

Playing berserker will not kill a condi Daredevil either, unless they’re horrible. There is not enough burst in this game currently to counterburst a dire daredevil played even somewhat competently. And that’s coming from me.

• Wait for death blossom
• Burst damage at end of death blossom
• Sorry DecieverX I run DD condi Thief and know exactly how every class can kill it.
• you are correct about CnD though. It’s a waste of resources

I did, too, for about a hundred hours to verify how stupid the build is, and I don’t think I can recount a fight I’ve lost when playing it halfway decently (and even I play viper’s/carrion). Yea, you don’t just mash 3 as hard as you can to beat skilled players (though it works great on non-power builds and the “average” guy running around), but if you’re not trolling around in full viper’s and aren’t just straight up horrible at stunbreaking or queuing abilities, the build literally cannot be bursted 100-0 by anything. You have to misplay to die when playing it on rabid, TB, or dire.

I’m not here to argue whether or not the build needs a nerf or toning down. This is a response to answer the OP’s question about what he should do; my response is to run. Unless you have absurdist burst, negation, and cleansing, you’re not killing this build. Builds like rifle engi and power reaper have effectively no way to beat this build if it’s played by someone who doesn’t need to be much better than being AFK. It’s a brutal, unfair and blatantly stupid hard counter, but welcome to the wonderful world of post-HoT GW2; it’s like this on most professions and builds.

As far as the mobility commets go, I don’t really know how this can be argued when running Dash, Shadowstep, and shortbow. My condi thief is a much better finisher than my power one since the latter depends on the nerfed state of sword, and the condi one does so much damage via shortbow.

only way dire con thief loses if it over extend if you are playing ultimate cheese version of it with acrobatic line there is no build that deal with it. where thief does not have a chance to escape.

I’m not here to argue whether or not the build needs a nerf or toning down. This is a response to answer the OP’s question about what he should do; my response is to run. Unless you have absurdist burst, negation, and cleansing, you’re not killing this build. Builds like rifle engi and power reaper have effectively no way to beat this build if it’s played by someone who doesn’t need to be much better than being AFK. It’s a brutal, unfair and blatantly stupid hard counter, but welcome to the wonderful world of post-HoT GW2; it’s like this on most professions and builds.

The one problem with this is, the OP isn’t asking how to counter a D/D condi thief.

i dusted off my condi thief after years and within minutes i was on mag bl where i ran into @gnotshr who was taking a camp solo.

i was down within seconds after all the poison and bleeds.

true story

gnotshr.9136:

I’m not here to argue whether or not the build needs a nerf or toning down. This is a response to answer the OP’s question about what he should do; my response is to run. Unless you have absurdist burst, negation, and cleansing, you’re not killing this build. Builds like rifle engi and power reaper have effectively no way to beat this build if it’s played by someone who doesn’t need to be much better than being AFK. It’s a brutal, unfair and blatantly stupid hard counter, but welcome to the wonderful world of post-HoT GW2; it’s like this on most professions and builds.

The one problem with this is, the OP isn’t asking how to counter a D/D condi thief.

Well that’s awkward. I just made the assumption and thought the video was of his build so I didn’t watch it :s

It’s still tough with the resets on 3, though good timing on evades can negate the CnD (whoops) and it’s equally important to try and chain-CC it via the rifle or do so immediately after it opens the gap with Shadow Strike. It’s a pretty weak build from a distance as its damage comes from being close up.

For those interested in trying P/D:

Using Body Shot and Dancing Dagger can help land a CnD. So can making sure they are crippled as much as possible from Caltrops. Then just wait out blocks with Vital Shot and use CnD when those go down.

The advantage of mainhand pistol is that it can provide a lot of pressure from range. Each shot’s bleed will hit for about 1k over 8 seconds, which can add up if applied after they do a big cleanse.

Mahkno.7593:

very hard match for a rifle engi due to targeting/stealth, but sneak gyro immediately, heal up, detection pulse, magnet, prybar, rifle cc rotation. grenades at your feet when they invis… dodgetrops will still eat you up. seek shelter…

Don’t keep stealth gyro out if the Thief is using Cloak and Dagger on it.

The best bet is to use gyro/use detection pulse. If detection pulse doesn’t hit the thief, leave (keep gyro alive). If detection pulse does hit the thief, hit hard and CC/kill gyro (you have 5-6s).

If the thief is average or above, they’ll live through the detection burst (since using Dire) but then disengage (Shadowstep utility allows that easily). You’ll occasionally run into enemy thieves who don’t know what they are doing (using Cloak and Dagger as the 100% crutch) or because they have been waiting for a solo fight, go all in and both will get decimated.

Regardless, it’s a tough fight since stealth/invisibility/range opponent always is (same problem with PU cancer mesmer).