Guild Wars 2

So, I’m going to go ahead and list my expectations for the January 2013 patch. They are primarily Thief fixes (focusing entirely on sPvP), with a few general game fixes. Agree or disagree, please be polite in your responses – I’d love it if Anet could use this as a benchmark for progress.

1)Dagger/Pistol
- The root on hit of shadow shot needs to be removed- what is the point of a gap closer that allows your target to open up the gap again?

2)Sword/Pistol
- Something needs to be done with Pistol Whip. It has a list of small issues that make it a waste of initiative in most scenarios. It does less DPS than auto attack. The last few swings can be walked out of. The root begins after the stun attack has completed, but the evade doesn’t kick in until the first swing (which is a big window for a squishy class like thief). There are many potential solutions; I’m not going to suggest any, but it needs something.
- Black powder needs something small – either a small damage bump, a very slightly bigger AoE, or to have its init cost reduced to 5. Half of a standard initiative bar for a smoke AoE that any130 range melee classes can stand outside of and still hit you is a bit much.

3)Sword/Dagger
- Flanking strike is just a mess. Its like Pistol whip’s loser brother. The pathing/targeting is no where near as good as the ranger equivalent. The overall damage for the skill is subpar for time and initiative spent (in a set that already has poor damage options). The evade portion of the skill is gone well before the second (and more powerful) strike lands, leaving the thief open for a beating. Due to the length of the animation, the “boon removal” part of the first strike is kind of pointless (In the current meta anyway); Any class that is boon reliant is applying them constantly – flanking strike is a good way to ensure your target has 2 or 3 less boons then they’re used to, but it just isn’t usable as a means of stripping boons from a target completely (due primarily to the long animation time of the skill, and to a lesser extent the init cost). Fixing this would require playtesting, so I’m not going to make any suggestions, but there’s no question this needs to be adjusted.

4)Dagger OH
-Dancing dagger was over zealously nerfed. While I agree it needed some adjustment, 50% of the damage was an extreme overcompensation for a company that claims to like to make “small, consistent changes”. There’s 2 easy ways to fix this.
a)restore 25% of the damage (making it a 25% damage nerf from the original DD damage).
b)Leave the damage as it is now, but remove the cast time, reduce the init cost to 3, speed the projectile up, and reduce the cripple to 4s base.
I prefer option B, that way DD can be used as it was apparently intended, as a utility. Its current incarnation is easily dodged, init expensive, and does kitten damage – you’re better off just hitting HS most of the time.

5)Pistol/Pistol
- Dev’s, we don’t care that you like Body Shot; its worthless. I know that seems harsh, but we’ve had numerous posts on the boards, showing mathematically how worthless body shot is as a weapon skill, and its still there, patch after patch after patch. It is a mathematically provable waste of initiative in 98% of scenarios, yet the dev team clings to the skill for some unknown reason. This is a major deal, and ties in to my next point
- Pistol/Pistol is a confused, poorly designed weapon set. With Body shot being a mathematically provable waste of initiative, We’re left with Vital shot (and sneak attack), and Unload; 2 polar opposite skills. Vital shot (and sneak attack) are condition damage attacks, they gain very little from high power/crit. Unload is a Power/crit attack…and gains absolutely nothing from condition damage. What? Headshot and Black powder shot are good utilities, but they’re just that; utilities. Their damage doesn’t contribute meaningfully no matter what the spec’s focus (either condi or power/crit). Fixing body shot into something useable would at least help nudge the set toward coherency.
- Pistol/Pistol has ZERO access to any of a thief’s survivability mechanics. Any dagger OH spec has access to stealth. Any sword MH spec has access to Infiltrators strike. Even Dagger/Pistol can access stealth via Black powder->HS. Pistol/Pistol has no built in access to stealth and no escapes, making for a very easily caught, squishy thief.

6) Obstructed
- Its been 4 months – Ranged combat should work. There’s really no excuse. I’d say about 20% of the time, my ranged attacks are “Obstructed” or “Out of Range” for no reason whatsoever. That number should be 1%. Who wants to play a game where the mechanics cant be trusted to be consistent?

Please add or comment as you like, but keep things civil.

7)KB/KD/Pull/Launch
- Bring these in line with regular stuns. ATM, these skills are basically “Stun Plus”, as there is a delay before a stunbreaker can be used to escape.

Can you fix hidden killer trait too while you are at it ?

P/D Body Shot replaced with something more useful,maybe /flex emote or something.
Last Refuge trait replaced with something less lethal for the thief.

I don’t expect anything, have been let down time and time again by “balance” notes…

1)
Fix rendering bug.
2)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instinctual_Response
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge
Totally useless with revealed mechanic.
3)
Shadow shot+Ricochet= double teleport.
4)
Fix double damage caltrops.

evilapprentice.6379:

…
6) Obstructed
- Its been 4 months – Ranged combat should work….

Four months is nothing, seven and a half years of Guild Wars didn’t see that problem resolved, I wouldn’t expect a resolution to it for the next seven and a half years of Guild Wars 2

frans.8092:

Four months is nothing, seven and a half years of Guild Wars didn’t see that problem resolved, I wouldn’t expect a resolution to it for the next seven and a half years of Guild Wars 2

well that’s disheartening. . .

Would be nice if they fixed so attacks that have channel time gets cancelled when you stealth.

I just get disgusted when i see a ranger shoot with his rapid fire and hitting me while i run around in stealth, that skill last forever.. its like seeing him shoot you for 1 hour while you are in stealth >_>

Rissou.7213:

Would be nice if they fixed so attacks that have channel time gets cancelled when you stealth.

I just get disgusted when i see a ranger shoot with his rapid fire and hitting me while i run around in stealth, that skill last forever.. its like seeing him shoot you for 1 hour while you are in stealth >_>

Not just in PvP either. I wont go near Lost Shores because the karka machine gun outlasts one full dodge and goes through stealth.

The only thing I want to see is “Culling issues permanently fixed”
then maybe some changes to p/p and bug fixes.

That’s it. I believe after those changes thieves will be perfectly balanced.

body shot – this ability now has a 3 second snare

unload – this ability now also applys vuln

vital shot – this abilitys dmg has been doubled

all pistol skills now have a default range of 1200 and pierce with out the need of traits

Introducing a sword offhand.

I’m a big fan of sword/dagger, so I totally want a flanking strike update. Seriously, it’s so unreliable. Also pistol/whip needs a change. Maybe make the stun instant?

Also I’d like a change to Death Blossom. This skill is so brainless and badly designed. It doesn’t work at all with the Dagger/Dagger kit. Please, just change it. Remove the gapcloser on heartseeker-strike and give it to the reworked death blossom. Also add a short root to it. If you want to make a melee condition specc, you have to introduce and give us a whole new weapon set (Torch MH, Axe OH?).

Pistol/Pistol needs a lot of work. Most of the kit has to be changed. Body Shot is bad, Unload is boring, Headshot is close to unuseable (You have to interrupt unload to use it, same with black powder. ).

Most of the kits have to be reworked tbh. The only good one with a lot of synergy is Sword/Dagger but it has, sadly, the awful flanking strike.

Would love rifle and axe to be available weapons.

Tyr.6097:

Introducing a sword offhand.

/Signed

As for S/P, S/D: rework pistol whip to be exactly the same as Blurred Frenzy, instant and convenient, flanking strike should be exactly the same as serpent’s strike, just with an off hand poke and without the snake.

Cloak and Dagger — too many times has a little lag had my double swing this and lock myself out of stealth. Make CND not work while stealthed. Make it do something else or nothing at all.

Body shot — useless. Give us anything else. Maybe something like engi poison pistol shot? Maybe a chill or weakness, or anything.

Our stun breakers and condition cures are a little lacking — specifically stun breakers. Maybe make Withdrawl heal break stun and you’ll finally see more people use it.

I’d like to see the 2s Swiftness on Evade Trait bumped to 3s, but that’s just me. We don’t have much swiftness at all.

Infiltrator’s strike/shadow return- fix bugs with shadow return not shadowstepping you or resetting on stun/daze. (ate a hundred blades today in a paid cause of that.) /cry

Shadowstep/shadow return- increase duration of shadow return from 10 secs to 20 secs to match the shadow return of the Infiltrator’s shadow return.

Don’t expect anything except more unjustified thief nerfs. The thief profession is doomed as long as arenanet keeps listening to all the scrubs.

backstab nerf 30%

Rangers will get the ability to see stealthed enemies.

Fook.3914:

backstab nerf 30%

Thats fine we also get a extra 3k HP and the original HS damage back sound good yeah? you cant take without giving and tis the season to be giving so ill give you some advice go Google how to counter a GC thief it will help you out alot here is a hint CC

id love to see the culling issue fixed just so i can see the new excuse newbs will use against thieves since we have had "Perma stealth thieves " id like to know what the new one will be maybe a "Triple backstab thief" or a "Infin inti thief" but srs id love to see P/P get some love

Have a feeling they’re going to do something to mug, change it to master or nerf it
With that and some random pistol change, I doubt much is happening with their “incremental” stance.

Would like to see:
Ankle shot changed to 100%.
Body shot change.
Flankings tracking improved but we’ll probably just get the damage re-arranged..
Deletion (followed by replacement) or revision of Dagger training, Combined training, Potent Poison, side strike, Combined critical chance, last Refuge, power shots, Assassin’s retreat, flanking strikes and ricochet.
Corrosive traps merged with Master trapper or removed, feel it’s wasting space, srs.

Iced Drake Venom changed to Assassin’s Remedy.

make pulls work consistently
Scorpion wire (and some pulls other classes have) bugs out so much it’s stupid

and make self pulls not just inflict the pull status. That’s awful. Stun myself? please. I pull myself to my target, but then because it’s just a pull, I’m stunned for a short while even after I arrive. And if I have stability, the skill does nothing at all. This is mostly a problem with underwater skills, but I think the elementalist’s magnetic grasp still has a few of the issues.

• Make it impossible to down someone in stealth.
• Make it impossible to regenerate health while in stealth (abilities/traits will be changed accordingly)
• Getting damage while in stealth breaks stealth
• (Rangers will get the ability to see stealthed enemies)

:)

Aveneo.2068:

• Make it impossible to down someone in stealth.
• Make it impossible to regenerate health while in stealth (abilities/traits will be changed accordingly)
• Getting damage while in stealth breaks stealth
• (Rangers will get the ability to see stealthed enemies)

:)

“* Make it impossible to regenerate health while in stealth (abilities/traits will be changed accordingly)”

No, there is no “change accordingly”. I don’t think you quite understand how badly this would ruin a Thief’s chance of survival in any prolonged combat situation. This would quite literally DESTROY Thieves in PvE that aren’t pure glass cannon. What changes do you propose? Increased toughness while stealthed? I’d honestly like to hear what you would propose instead, because right now, that just sounds like a HIDEOUS nerfbat with no real justification other than “it’s annoying when they re-appear with some more HP in WvW”.

“* Getting damage while in stealth breaks stealth”

Congratulations, you’ve broken the entire Thief profession, as well as a good chunk of the Mesmer. Perhaps you get a little visual feedback, like a small spark or small spurt of blood, just to give you an idea of where the opponent may be going. But to BREAK stealth when damaged? Stealth then becomes COMPLETELY worthless to everyone, at any time, ever.

“* (Rangers will get the ability to see stealthed enemies)”

Don’t really see a problem with this, as long as you still cannot target the Thief/Mesmer/Camouflaged Ranger, and the issue that channelled skills continue hitting stealthed targets (especially Rapid Fire etc.) is fixed. Simply knowing the target’s exact location and movement is more than enough.

I think this thread really needs a bump and am unsure why it was overlooked so quickly as it highlights some of the main problems the Thief class currently contains.

Flanking Strike, Dancing Dagger, and Body Shot (especially) all need a rework. The trait Last Refuge, although the idea has merit, typically does not work as intended and ends up causing me to die.

The only other thing I would like to see, is the number 3 Stealth ability on downed-state reworked to include some kind of damage so that it can be brought up to par with other classes 3rd downed-state ability. Engineers have a bomb that damages and interrupts stomp; Elementalists have an immobilize that damages and prevents ppl from getting to them to stomp; Mesmers have the heart seeker phantasm that eats up all glasscannons trying to stomp; and Warriors have the OP Vengeance skill that makes them the supreme winner of all downed fights.
Nowadays, I don’t even use the thief stealth ability unless a teammate is trying to rez me because a downed thief is about as troublesome as a baby that doesnt want to eat his cheerios and most smart tourny players will just leave me to bleed out; I figure maybe if I press my 1 key enough times he’ll get annoyed enough to just finish the job. If its a guardian letting me bleed out… gg, I just strike up a conversation while I’m waiting.

Body Shot needs a re-work. For P/P, it serves essentially the same function as Unload, but is massively unsatisfying to use – it increases damage by small amounts and will never show big numbers, and by sharing an animation with the basic attack it feels like you’re doing nothing but using basic attacks. It doesn’t have the awesome kinetic feedback of Unload.

It isn’t necessarily under-powered, just boring; you use Unload when you’re the only one shooting the target, and Body Shot when you have a 5 man group shooting the target. The two really should be combined into one skill, following the model of Unload, with a skill with a more diverse use case taking the place of Body Shot.

ensoriki.5789:

Have a feeling they’re going to do something to mug, change it to master or nerf it

If they would do either of these, they would probably just nerf it. Changing it to master would just assure that only GC would use it causing it to hit harder. This might cause it to not be used as strategically as a finishing burst on a lower damage build. As it stands now virtually all builds can have access to mug if they want it, but without traiting heavily into power, its damage is not out of line with what you would expect on a 45 second cooldown.

Aveneo.2068:

• Make it impossible to down someone in stealth.
• Make it impossible to regenerate health while in stealth (abilities/traits will be changed accordingly)
• Getting damage while in stealth breaks stealth
• (Rangers will get the ability to see stealthed enemies)

:)

do you play thief?
stealth doesn’t always saves you

Aveneo.2068:

Rangers will get the ability to see stealthed enemies.

Aww poor rangers… Even know i ususally pick on them, but with the fact that they can see me i would pick on them even more

I expect something along these lines:

• Revealed debuff now applied every time when exiting stealth
• Taking damage while revealed extends the debuff a further 2s, but can only be extended one time per damage source.
• While in stealth 10 stacks of vulnerability are applied (removed upon unstealthing, only applies to self stealths, not when stealthing others).

(Not that I would want the above however)

on the other hand….
A. Fix CND that misses even on close range and does not stealth ..
B .Also when using SB when attacking Vet. guards it is either obstructed or out of range ..
C . On Shadow Refuge even ur inside with 6-10 secs stealth once u go out of the circle u are out of stealth but sometimes it does not take u out of stealth .. WvW or PvE
D. With Dagger Storm – elite quote from Gw2 wiki " Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, or feared. " yet we get feared or transform to a MOA or get dazed "

etc etc … there are so many things to mention … but all we can do is wait for a change or next patch or next …

Replace Body Shot with Lead Poisoning (cripple + poison)
Replace Unload with a frontal cone bleed barrage similar to Death Blossom but ranged
Make major trait to make shots ricochet also increase size and duration of Black Powder field.

Make Death Blossom power/crit focused that causes vulnerability instead of bleeds.

Also, is it just me or does ricochet actually hurt your unload damage on your target since it seems to bounce a shot intended for the first target to the second target instead of the shot hitting your first target first, then your second target second?

I’m not going to repeat what every one already said but will emphasis that the Last Refuges should be replaced or “fixed” atm every one who wants to go into Shadow Arts is forced to take it. It saves me 2/10 times and gets me killed 8/10 due to Reveled.

Also Flanking strike’s second hit misses 8/10 times and is extremely slow, please make it “follow” the target (like HS) or a shadowstep behind the target instead of making a U movement only to miss if the target is not rooted / Stationary.

Nightarch.2943:

Tyr.6097:

Introducing a sword offhand.

/Signed

As for S/P, S/D: rework pistol whip to be exactly the same as Blurred Frenzy, instant and convenient, flanking strike should be exactly the same as serpent’s strike, just with an off hand poke and without the snake.

Pistol whip will never be Blurred Frenzy thanks to the initiative mechanic, and that’s fine; there’s no reason the evade shouldn’t start directly after the stun connects however. Flanking strikes pathing problems should have been fixed months ago, seeing as rangers have had a working version of it for at least that long. The other concerns with it (low damage, evasion gone well before second swing connects, etc) still need to be looked into.

1st: Increase the range of CnD from /./ to /…/
2nd: Do something with Body shot, like a snare / chill / daze or whatever…. just do something with it.

Pistol Whip – Remove the daze + evade, increase the damage by 20%.

We already have an interrupt ability (Head Shot), and we already have a survivability tool (Black Powder). Seems redundant for PW to have a daze and evade. S/P needs a damage dump, and that is what Pistol Whip needs to be.

Blacksarevok.8104:

Pistol Whip – Remove the daze + evade, increase the damage by 20%.

We already have an interrupt ability (Head Shot), and we already have a survivability tool (Black Powder). Seems redundant for PW to have a daze and evade. S/P needs a damage dump, and that is what Pistol Whip needs to be.

We’d get eaten alive due to the root and channel- PW would be a clarion call to any burst setup to maul us, because we’d be sitting ducks without the evasion. There’s literally nothing worse a thief can do then broadcast to the enemy team “Ima just stand here for a second, totally visible”. Without the stun we also wouldn’t have any way to prevent an opponent from just walking out of the swings (like they already do when the stun wears off, but the stun at least forces them to take a few of the swings)

Nerf BS and buff other builds – like they said they would several patches ago? I can always dream.

evilapprentice.6379:

Blacksarevok.8104:

Pistol Whip – Remove the daze + evade, increase the damage by 20%.

We already have an interrupt ability (Head Shot), and we already have a survivability tool (Black Powder). Seems redundant for PW to have a daze and evade. S/P needs a damage dump, and that is what Pistol Whip needs to be.

We’d get eaten alive due to the root and channel- PW would be a clarion call to any burst setup to maul us, because we’d be sitting ducks without the evasion. There’s literally nothing worse a thief can do then broadcast to the enemy team “Ima just stand here for a second, totally visible”. Without the stun we also wouldn’t have any way to prevent an opponent from just walking out of the swings (like they already do when the stun wears off, but the stun at least forces them to take a few of the swings)

100b has the same issues, the difference being that 100b can actually deliver relevant damage when used tactically, PW cannot. Removing the stun is not an issue because you should not be using PW without Haste anyway, it does less/the same damage than auto-attack while rooting you in place. PW + Haste + SoM is the only possible use I can think of for PW in PVP, of which the stun + evade are irrelevant due to how fast the attack is performed (or at most, near-irrelevant). By buffing the damage and removing the stun/evade, you are actually opening it up to be used in more situations other than being coupled with haste + SoM.

Pistol whip is fine. Removing the stun and evade doesn’t open up anything.
It’s purpose is already clear. Smash people in the face. Removing those two features, just makes it so the skill is easier to ignore without quickness, and easier to escape with quickness. In addition leaving you significantly more vulnerable to all pet/minion types in this game from Rockdog’s to turrets, illusions, pets, minions, thieves and spirit weapons, as well as enemy team mates. All for a damage increase on something that already hits quite well? No thanks.

They’ll buff S/D and P/P, the whiners will be so enraged that they’ll leave and GW2 PvP will flourish into a realm of players who constantly search for creative ways to improve their skills instead of complain.

Hey a guy can hope.

ensoriki.5789:

Pistol whip is fine. Removing the stun and evade doesn’t open up anything.
It’s purpose is already clear. Smash people in the face. Removing those two features, just makes it so the skill is easier to ignore without quickness, and easier to escape with quickness. In addition leaving you significantly more vulnerable to all pet/minion types in this game from Rockdog’s to turrets, illusions, pets, minions, thieves and spirit weapons, as well as enemy team mates. All for a damage increase on something that already hits quite well? No thanks.

Hits well? It’s been tested, in absolutely best-case scenarios (IE: Traiting for +5% dual skill damage, +5% dual skill crit, and having a proc sigil) to have the same DPS as sword auto-attack. You are basically paying 5 ini for and interrupt and a evade, both of which can more-or-less be provided by other abilities (and not at the cost of your mobility). There is literally no reason to use PW over Black Powder + auto-attack unless you are trying to get health back via SoM. I would much rather it be a nuke skill then something that niche.

Maybe removing the daze + evade isn’t the best solution, but saying the damage is fine is pretty much laughable. They might as well just remove the damage all together and just make it an evade that lasts a second or two that allows us to continue to auto-attack and move.

EDIT: I guess alternatively instead of damage they could add a condition to it. For example, each sword hit applies vulnerability. That would make it worth using on it’s own without increasing the damamge.

Which other skills of mine are interrupting the foe, protecting me, and proventing them from moving? It is neither head shot or black powder. Nor do any of them do significant damage.
It doesn’t need the same DPS as the sword-auto attack because it has different features then the sword auto attack. Is this rocket science?

Let me rewrite this…

It’s been tested, in absolutely best-case scenarios (IE: Traiting for +10% damage on pistol shots, 30% chance on crit to cripple, and having a proc sigil) Black powder does not have the same DPS as sword-auto attack….and no one god kitten cares.
It’s a stun and evade that does damage, the auto attack gives cripple and weakness with a higher damage output. Stun even at a second is a powerful effect, as is Evade.
Dealwitit.jpg.

Replace Last Refuge or even flat-out remove the Lv5 passive trait in Shadow Arts; I wouldn’t miss it, nor do I think anyone else would.

Last Refuge #1 Thief killer worldwide.

So far we have:

Buff Sword/Pistol’s slot three skill, pistol whip
Pistol/Pistol Needs a rework. Headshot will only apply daze the first time it’s fired at a champion leveled boss. I have yet to test this outside of dungeons, but a champion (like The Ghost Eater) will only be dazed and interrupted once before just ignoring the skill altogether. It’s already been pointed out, but bodyshot is a waste of initiative, and black powder’s costs outweigh its benefits; Finally, Pistol/Pistol has no survivability skills, and its main form of damage, unload, is easily evaded or blocked during player versus player combat.

Some other problems, like how signet of agility states it will cure a condition for each nearby ally when activated, is either bugged or wrongly worded, as it will only cure one condition, regardless of how many allies are within the specified range.

Also, when used with a combo field, unload and other similar skills will only apply a condition/regeneration/burning at the end of the channel, despite the words “confusion confusion confusion” appearing multiple times for say when you throw gunk at a target then use unload. Essentially, instead of providing multiple stacks of confusion, or regeneration, or blind, it will only apply those effects on the final hit of the channeled ability.

Player Culling is an issue that makes thieves in world versus world a lot harder to deal with, as they can still either be permanently invisible and continue attacking you, or they will take up to three seconds to be visible after coming out of stealth.

Finally, I feel as if thieves need a range buff on pistols, and a weapon or trait that can allow thieves to fire at up to 1200 range. A possible buff on shortbow’s cluster bomb would also be of benefit, as it is the main form of damage for the shortbow, but the only way to reliably spam that form of damage is to be as close to the enemy as physically possible. It seems that clusterbomb would be more at home on a melee weapon then a ranged one.

I would personally like to see thieves have access to rifles, but I do believe that pistols need a range increase, if not a complete rework altogether.

One last personal thing I’d like to see would be a change in animations; firing both pistols as the autoattack, sort of like a slower unload, instead of just the one pistol firing.

raahk.2786:

Also, when used with a combo field, unload and other similar skills will only apply a condition/regeneration/burning at the end of the channel, despite the words “confusion confusion confusion” appearing multiple times for say when you throw gunk at a target then use unload. Essentially, instead of providing multiple stacks of confusion, or regeneration, or blind, it will only apply those effects on the final hit of the channeled ability.

That’s most likely because Unload only has a 20% chance of proccing a finisher but for some reason the UI will show the text even for other the 80% of the attacks (it happens for every attack that has a % of proccing)

Rainu.6871:

raahk.2786:

Also, when used with a combo field, unload and other similar skills will only apply a condition/regeneration/burning at the end of the channel, despite the words “confusion confusion confusion” appearing multiple times for say when you throw gunk at a target then use unload. Essentially, instead of providing multiple stacks of confusion, or regeneration, or blind, it will only apply those effects on the final hit of the channeled ability.

That’s most likely because Unload only has a 20% chance of proccing a finisher but for some reason the UI will show the text even for other the 80% of the attacks (it happens for every attack that has a % of proccing)

So it’s a simple bug with text, not with the actual skill. Good to know.

It would make pistol/pistol at least semi-viable if it did, though.