Guild Wars 2

I’m thinking more and more about getting back the old Berserker suit out and respec to a full glass cannon build since this recent nerf to stealth and bug to hidden killer. I’m sure a lot of us are thinking the same and rely on mug and huge backstab crits to kill as fast as possible. Since we didn’t have any staying power to start with and we have even less now.

Now question is: how long do you think it will take before forums become flooded again with QQ about how thieves can insta kill people and so on and so forth?

I predict a nerf to mug and then backstab damage next! All people have to do to see it happening is QQ about it on the forums!

Teamkiller.4315:

Nerf to mug is incoming (and deserved).

Backstab will probably be untouched.

Well, actually, if thieves get something called boon hate, their raw burst is getting toned down.

---

You had ENORMOUS staying power originally, the revealed debuff has been increased by 1 second only, and ironically while you predict QQ from other players you are the one who is actually appearing to QQ.

It’s really an overused phrase anyways (QQ), just stop complaining. A lot of classes have been consistently hit with the nerf bat, so you aren’t exactly in a terrible position.

I wouldnt call mesmers balancing issues nerfs.

They were balanced down like the rest of us but still not down to our level enough.
I dont recall warriors getting hit with a significant nerf, neither do I recall eles getting hit with one,.

I do recall rangers getting hit with an utterly pointless dps nerf like the thieves just had, and they were pretty upset about it, rightfully so, now all they have is traps.

If you don’t have anything of value to add to the issue other than “suck it up and stop whining” please keep your dissenting opinion to yourself, I’m not telling you this to be mean and make it look like I’m trying to shut you up, I’m telling you this so other people wont perceive you to be a huge opinionated lout that doesnt know what hes talking about.

The idea of a “glass cannon” is for it to break after dealing a lot of damage. But glass cannon Thieves aren’t breaking after massive damage and that’s the problem.

I think the nerf will be on the survivability of glass cannons, since they have to break, rather than targetting the damage output of the Thieves.

But that’s just me.

I wouldnt call mesmers balancing issues nerfs.

In the same way i wouldn’t call the CROSS CLASS stealth “nerf” a nerf because hey, it’s just a balancing issue right?

Should I remind how Guardians received the retaliation “Balancing” issue? A lot of classes, again, have been consistently hit with the nerf bat. I’ll repeat it as many times as it takes to sink in.

Why, just last patch, Eles auras and ride the lightning. It completely broke DPS D/Ds. Guardian spirit weapons got hit earlier as well. A-net ruined a unique build with nothing to anticipate for it beforehand.

They were balanced down like the rest of us but still not down to our level enough.
I dont recall warriors getting hit with a significant nerf, neither do I recall eles getting hit with one,.

Warriors didn’t get hit by a direct nerf. However, they did get shafted by an indirect nerf. Quickness nerf. If you go to the spvp or warrior forums, you’ll see how utterly useless they are for spvp now (they were already the worst spvp class, now they’re even worse off)

If you think it’s not a nerf, I’ll point out that the stealth nerf applies to all classes as well, not just thieves. It just so happens that thieves use it most. Just like warriors use quickness the most.

In the same way Omnomberry Ghost/Pie nerfs have completely ruined the sustain of many warrior builds, despite being a cross class adjustment.

Retaliation the same ruined some retaliation builds as well, when the mechanics changed completely from 33% reflected damage to base damage.

If you don’t have anything of value to add to the issue other than “suck it up and stop whining” please keep your dissenting opinion to yourself, I’m not telling you this to be mean and make it look like I’m trying to shut you up, I’m telling you this so other people wont perceive you to be a huge opinionated lout that doesnt know what hes talking about.

So basically what you’re saying is I’m wrong because I disagree with you. Excellent reasoning.

I predict nerf to mug and backstab damage indirectly. They will nerf crit damage % or something stupid in attempt to lessen backstab burst.

Mug will receive 50% damage nerf.

Thief will then become the worst class in the game, hands down.

EDIT: Even a banner/kick/rampage spec warrior will tool on a thief with these things nerfed as well.

^Banner warrior is actually pretty powerful, now with the approximately 90% buff that the banners have received.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The idea of a “glass cannon” is for it to break after dealing a lot of damage. But glass cannon Thieves aren’t breaking after massive damage and that’s the problem.

I think the nerf will be on the survivability of glass cannons, since they have to break, rather than targetting the damage output of the Thieves.

But that’s just me.

The question is though, why these glass cannons don’t break afterwards, people claim its because stealth is overpowered but it doesn’t actually prevent that much damage against people that know how it works, so what else is it causing these glass cannons to reduce all this damage?

D/P

ensoriki.5789:

D/P

….probably this. Been using D/P + S/D since the patch. Great utility with added defense from blinding attacks. People will be annoyed that even though they can see the thief they either can’t hit them or get interrupted. D/P dual puts heartseeker to shame post change, especially considering the reverse shadowstep that occurs if it’s reflected.

Edit: Forgot to add mug to that list. Got hit by a 7.6k mug last night while under 50% health with conditions on me. Then again, I also got hit by a 6k maul while at full health. Maybe its just the way I’m specced and not the abilities themselves.

Dasorine.1964:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The idea of a “glass cannon” is for it to break after dealing a lot of damage. But glass cannon Thieves aren’t breaking after massive damage and that’s the problem.

I think the nerf will be on the survivability of glass cannons, since they have to break, rather than targetting the damage output of the Thieves.

But that’s just me.

The question is though, why these glass cannons don’t break afterwards, people claim its because stealth is overpowered but it doesn’t actually prevent that much damage against people that know how it works, so what else is it causing these glass cannons to reduce all this damage?

First we need to figure out what type of damage source we want to use to break the glass. Only then we can find out what type of protection glass cannon Thieves uses to preserve themselves.

In GW1, they added after cast (which I hate btw) to give a window of opportunity for the victim to respond to the attacker. In GW2, they sort of aiming to deal with stealth the same way by adding a 1s after cast (which I definitely hate since after cast in GW1 is only 1/4 of a second).

With the extra second of reveal in place, are the glass cannon breaking as expected? Afraid not. Instead, the nerf ended up reducing the damage output of the glass cannon rather than exposing them to danger.

I personally don’t know what the solution for this problem would be, but as Thieves, we know that this is the problem with glass cannons — too much reward for little risk when it’s suppose to be high-risk-high-reward.

tbh the biggest damage reduction comes from the fact that a large portion of people simply stop doing anything the moment a thief goes stealthed, they don’t try to be evasive, they don’t try to AoE they don’t even spam auto attacks.

This is why thieves can destroy groups of new players while experienced players can kill thieves that rely just on stealth easier than most any other encounter.

The risk is still technically there its just for many the moment the thief vanishes they stop putting up any sort of threat (hence removing any risk for the thief)

Of course there is a difference between how easy it is to keep the threat going for each profession but I’ve not seen any profession that lacks any options at all.

Teamkiller.4315:

I wouldnt call mesmers balancing issues nerfs.

In the same way i wouldn’t call the CROSS CLASS stealth “nerf” a nerf because hey, it’s just a balancing issue right?

Should I remind how Guardians received the retaliation “Balancing” issue? A lot of classes, again, have been consistently hit with the nerf bat. I’ll repeat it as many times as it takes to sink in.

Why, just last patch, Eles auras and ride the lightning. It completely broke DPS D/Ds. Guardian spirit weapons got hit earlier as well. A-net ruined a unique build with nothing to anticipate for it beforehand.

They were balanced down like the rest of us but still not down to our level enough.
I dont recall warriors getting hit with a significant nerf, neither do I recall eles getting hit with one,.

Warriors didn’t get hit by a direct nerf. However, they did get shafted by an indirect nerf. Quickness nerf. If you go to the spvp or warrior forums, you’ll see how utterly useless they are for spvp now (they were already the worst spvp class, now they’re even worse off)

If you think it’s not a nerf, I’ll point out that the stealth nerf applies to all classes as well, not just thieves. It just so happens that thieves use it most. Just like warriors use quickness the most.

In the same way Omnomberry Ghost/Pie nerfs have completely ruined the sustain of many warrior builds, despite being a cross class adjustment.

Retaliation the same ruined some retaliation builds as well, when the mechanics changed completely from 33% reflected damage to base damage.

If you don’t have anything of value to add to the issue other than “suck it up and stop whining” please keep your dissenting opinion to yourself, I’m not telling you this to be mean and make it look like I’m trying to shut you up, I’m telling you this so other people wont perceive you to be a huge opinionated lout that doesnt know what hes talking about.

So basically what you’re saying is I’m wrong because I disagree with you. Excellent reasoning.

Cross class stealth nerf?
You’ve officially no idea what you’re talking about

You do know this reveal nerf +1 second coming out of stealth VIA AN ATTACK Is an issue for thieves, tell me how mesmers or other classes are effected by this nerf?

Do you get hurt by it as a mesmer? does your auto attack turn into a sneak attack?

Im an ele and mine doesnt, I dont care about reveal being 4 seconds on me.

Thanks for proving my point.

Anet said they were going to tone down Mug, it was their idea, not ours and at the end did not end up doing it :S and with haste nerf, they can’t really nerf burst damage anymore since all bunkers remained untouched.

and mesmers did not get hit by nerf :S! TW was something that mostly berserker warriors on CoF p1 benefit from, not the mesmer itself or general groups. if anything mesmer, guardian and eles were the only class to get buffed

and before anyone says, engineer got buffed for the all the patch notes, we actually had our strongest DPS build removed and core trait nerfed to the ground, so just imagine they removed backstab from the game and nerfed mug to the ground.. thats what happened to engi

swinsk.6410:

I predict nerf to mug and backstab damage indirectly. They will nerf crit damage % or something stupid in attempt to lessen backstab burst.

Mug will receive 50% damage nerf.

Thief will then become the worst class in the game, hands down.

EDIT: Even a banner/kick/rampage spec warrior will tool on a thief with these things nerfed as well.

I doubt they will nerf backstab damage as a skill, Yes it does high damage but its limited to every 4+ seconds. Considering backstab damage is only complained about for PvP, the likelihood of being backstabed every 4 seconds is rather low.

Mug I wouldn’t expect a nerf either (but who know with anet) Its ok to good damage on a ~45 second CD. Yes its instant and can be chained with other skills but Steal has more uses then just damage along with it having to be traited. If anything I would see them moving it higher on the trait tree but that would mean it would have to be replaced with one of the higher traits and correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t know that they have moved traits like that before.

google.3709:

Anet said they were going to tone down Mug, it was their idea, not ours and at the end did not end up doing it :S and with haste nerf, they can’t really nerf burst damage anymore since all bunkers remained untouched.

and mesmers did not get hit by nerf :S! TW was something that mostly berserker warriors on CoF p1 benefit from, not the mesmer itself or general groups. if anything mesmer, guardian and eles were the only class to get buffed

and before anyone says, engineer got buffed for the all the patch notes, we actually had our strongest DPS build removed and core trait nerfed to the ground, so just imagine they removed backstab from the game and nerfed mug to the ground.. thats what happened to engi

Engi definately got shafted too. Maybe (emphasis on maybe) 100 nades needed to be toned down, and some of the new abilities were sort of cool on KR from a utility standpoint, but then to add a 20 second global cooldown on top of it was a little ridiculous. At most it should have been put on a 10 second cooldown to put it on par with standard weapon swapping.

Maugetarr.6823:

ensoriki.5789:

D/P

….probably this. Been using D/P + S/D since the patch. Great utility with added defense from blinding attacks. People will be annoyed that even though they can see the thief they either can’t hit them or get interrupted. D/P dual puts heartseeker to shame post change, especially considering the reverse shadowstep that occurs if it’s reflected.

D/P is an anomaly among the other 2 /P sets which are less reliant on their stealth attacks but like them as a temporary boost or effect.
I would not be surprised at all if like the haste nerf everyone saw coming from beta. D/P loses it’s self-stealth access in favor of stronger effect on it’s dual and improvements on the Pistol off-hand in general. As it is now, D/P creeps quite strongly in the /D (current) usage of focusing on stealth to get off Stealth attacks and the line between the two on one hand of the game is somewhat blurred. Where kitten P and S/D clearly do not overlap as a result of stealth access, nor do P/D and P/P.

That’s me playing prophet however.

Cross class stealth nerf?
You’ve officially no idea what you’re talking about

You do know this reveal nerf +1 second coming out of stealth VIA AN ATTACK Is an issue for thieves, tell me how mesmers or other classes are effected by this nerf?

If they attack from stealth, they get the 4 second revealed debuff. It’s really that simple.

Notice how the stealth nerf is in the “general” section and not the “thief” section? Mmhm. You saying only a thief ever attacks from stealth (which is untrue, as I attack from stealth whenever a thief shadow refuges me and get the 4 second revealed debuff)? cause mesmers do it too. and so does every class I have that ever gets invisibilitied ever.

Or are you saying that the 4 second revealed is only for thieves and mesmers and other classes only suffer from a 3 second reveal?

Im an ele and mine doesnt, I dont care about reveal being 4 seconds on me.

I’m a guardian and I dont care about the omnom nerf. That doesn’t mean it isn’t cross class nerf. It just impacted certain classes way harder than others.

ensoriki.5789:

Maugetarr.6823:

ensoriki.5789:

D/P

….probably this. Been using D/P + S/D since the patch. Great utility with added defense from blinding attacks. People will be annoyed that even though they can see the thief they either can’t hit them or get interrupted. D/P dual puts heartseeker to shame post change, especially considering the reverse shadowstep that occurs if it’s reflected.

D/P is an anomaly among the other 2 /P sets which are less reliant on their stealth attacks but like them as a temporary boost or effect.
I would not be surprised at all if like the haste nerf everyone saw coming from beta. D/P loses it’s self-stealth access in favor of stronger effect on it’s dual and improvements on the Pistol off-hand in general. As it is now, D/P creeps quite strongly in the /D (current) usage of focusing on stealth to get off Stealth attacks.

That’s me playing prophet however.

Maybe, but the self stealth takes such a huge amount of initiative I’m not sure it will be removed. People complain that thieves don’t have to think or plan their escapes, but when that combo takes 3/4 of your global cooldown to accomplish, there is either forethought to using it or dodges till the initiative can regenerate itself. Not to mention right now it seems as though the 1 extra second of stealth does not affect this trait so its power is limited unless you take the time to HS through it multiple times making sure not to nick anyone in the process.

You could be entirely right though as I didn’t see the revealed time extension coming.

In terms of boosting our utility/staying power (which the said they are looking into….) It would be nice if quick pockets (trait name?) reduced weapon swap cooldown also to either 5 or 7 seconds so we had more flexibility in combat. 3 initiative every 10 seconds assuming I weapon swap right then (locking me out of a tactical swap later) is lackluster compared to 2 initiative passively every 10 seconds. It’s not that its bad, its just that it offers nothing that makes me want to trait to 30 to get.

Dasorine.1964:

tbh the biggest damage reduction comes from the fact that a large portion of people simply stop doing anything the moment a thief goes stealthed, they don’t try to be evasive, they don’t try to AoE they don’t even spam auto attacks.

This is why thieves can destroy groups of new players while experienced players can kill thieves that rely just on stealth easier than most any other encounter.

Well that is a problem outside the realm of Thieves.

The risk is still technically there its just for many the moment the thief vanishes they stop putting up any sort of threat (hence removing any risk for the thief)

Of course there is a difference between how easy it is to keep the threat going for each profession but I’ve not seen any profession that lacks any options at all.

I guess instead of Reveal debuff, once the Thief comes out of stealth, they are tied down with an apple in their mouth in a silver platter. :/

Maugetarr.6823:

ensoriki.5789:

Maugetarr.6823:

ensoriki.5789:

D/P

….probably this. Been using D/P + S/D since the patch. Great utility with added defense from blinding attacks. People will be annoyed that even though they can see the thief they either can’t hit them or get interrupted. D/P dual puts heartseeker to shame post change, especially considering the reverse shadowstep that occurs if it’s reflected.

D/P is an anomaly among the other 2 /P sets which are less reliant on their stealth attacks but like them as a temporary boost or effect.
I would not be surprised at all if like the haste nerf everyone saw coming from beta. D/P loses it’s self-stealth access in favor of stronger effect on it’s dual and improvements on the Pistol off-hand in general. As it is now, D/P creeps quite strongly in the /D (current) usage of focusing on stealth to get off Stealth attacks.

That’s me playing prophet however.

Maybe, but the self stealth takes such a huge amount of initiative I’m not sure it will be removed. People complain that thieves don’t have to think or plan their escapes, but when that combo takes 3/4 of your global cooldown to accomplish, there is either forethought to using it or dodges till the initiative can regenerate itself. Not to mention right now it seems as though the 1 extra second of stealth does not affect this trait so its power is limited unless you take the time to HS through it multiple times making sure not to nick anyone in the process.

You could be entirely right though as I didn’t see the revealed time extension coming.

In terms of boosting our utility/staying power (which the said they are looking into….) It would be nice if quick pockets (trait name?) reduced weapon swap cooldown also to either 5 or 7 seconds so we had more flexibility in combat. 3 initiative every 10 seconds assuming I weapon swap right then (locking me out of a tactical swap later) is lackluster compared to 2 initiative passively every 10 seconds. It’s not that its bad, its just that it offers nothing that makes me want to trait to 30 to get.

I know it’s expensive, just using the prophetic eye.
Lulz if Executioner gets nerfed before years end.

Notice how this stealth nerf isn’t being complained about in other classes forums?
Mhmm, stop being a foul mouth lout and think before you make an input.

notice how the omnom nerf wasn’t being complained about in the guardian section? That doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect guardians at all, it just means it doesn’t impact guardians nearly as much as it impacted warriors, who DID complain about it in their forums. It does NOT however change the fact that it was a cross class nerf, just like the stealth nerf is, that I’ll again point out was not in changes to thief but changes to general.

Did you know I can combo a smoke field provided by my neighborhood friendly engineer (and of course thief) and stealth my guardian as well? Trufax.

Also, I’ve been pretty civil, not sure where you’re getting “foul-mouth” from. seems kinda ironic given the last sentence in that particular quote, I’d say.

Do you wonder that?
because 4 seconds nerf means 1 extra second before PVE thieves can CnD and open another Backstab, it cuts their DPS and getting used to this new rotation of hitting CnD on Wild strike is annoying.

Boohoo, RTL same deal, eles used to have a 15 second rotation before they did RTL again, now they have to adapt.

I understand it cuts down PvE viability and this is a real issue, but the OP isn’t complaining about PvE. He’s complaining about other players in PvP “QQing” about thieves and getting them nerfed. He’s more specifically commenting on their staying power, which is enormously higher than most other classes to begin with. My thief is the ONLY class I can consistently go to sPvP with and not die a single time yet maintain a respectable place on the scoreboard.

Even with the 4 second reveal, it still is. And I do not chain C&D.

Human players like you, are hella squishy, all a PVP thief needs to do is hit you once with a cycle and you’re brown bread 4 seconds revealed debuff DOESNT MATTER TO THEM because youd be dead in 4 seconds.

lolwut? human players?

Also, good on you if you meant my class, I fully agree that 3.2k armor is squishy. I need at least 6k. Every thief i met has downed me in less than 4 seconds.

A lot of sarcasm, I should mention, went into the construction of my last paragraph

AI on the other hand arent they take ages to get killed, part of having a thief your party was for the burst damage they can put out until then D/D just has to keep backstabing

He’s complaining about staying power.

Also, mug is once every 45 seconds skill. CHILL, your dps went down a bit but backstab thieves aren’t meant for consistent dps anyways. You’re the king of burst. Besides, if reveal is every 4 seconds and you are doing backstab every 4 seconds instead of 3 now, why instead don’t you use that 1 second to make up part of that dps you lost.

You’re a guardian and YOU DONT CARE about the nerf.

Did I mention I have a thief?

Teamkiller.4315:

Notice how this stealth nerf isn’t being complained about in other classes forums?
Mhmm, stop being a foul mouth lout and think before you make an input.

notice how the omnom nerf wasn’t being complained about in the guardian section? That doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect guardians at all, it just means it doesn’t impact guardians nearly as much as it impacted warriors, who DID complain about it in their forums. It does NOT however change the fact that it was a cross class nerf, just like the stealth nerf is, that I’ll again point out was not in changes to thief but changes to general.

Did you know I can combo a smoke field provided by my neighborhood friendly engineer (and of course thief) and stealth my guardian as well? Trufax.

Also, I’ve been pretty civil, not sure where you’re getting “foul-mouth” from. seems kinda ironic given the last sentence in that particular quote, I’d say.

Do you wonder that?
because 4 seconds nerf means 1 extra second before PVE thieves can CnD and open another Backstab, it cuts their DPS and getting used to this new rotation of hitting CnD on Wild strike is annoying.

Boohoo, RTL same deal, eles used to have a 15 second rotation before they did RTL again, now they have to adapt.

I understand it cuts down PvE viability and this is a real issue, but the OP isn’t complaining about PvE. He’s complaining about other players in PvP “QQing” about thieves and getting them nerfed. He’s more specifically commenting on their staying power, which is enormously higher than any other class to begin with. My thief is the ONLY class I can consistently go to sPvP with and not die a single time yet maintain a respectable place on the scoreboard.

Even with the 4 second reveal, it still is. And I do not chain C&D.

Human players like you, are hella squishy, all a PVP thief needs to do is hit you once with a cycle and you’re brown bread 4 seconds revealed debuff DOESNT MATTER TO THEM because youd be dead in 4 seconds.

lolwut? human players?

Also, good on you if you meant my class, I fully agree that 3.2k armor is squishy. I need at least 6k. Every thief i met has downed me in less than 4 seconds.

A lot of sarcasm, I should mention, went into the construction of my last paragraph

AI on the other hand arent they take ages to get killed, part of having a thief your party was for the burst damage they can put out until then D/D just has to keep backstabing

He’s complaining about staying power.

Also, mug is once every 45 seconds skill. CHILL, your dps went down a bit but backstab thieves aren’t meant for consistent dps anyways. You’re the king of burst.

Oh really? You know what?
I can lay down a fire field and anyone with a jump finisher can get a fire aura.
Does this mean THEY depend on fire aura like you depend on stealth?

And you’ve been CIVIL?
LAWL, I refer to you to your first post which you have deleted which I have quoted.
This is what you call Civil.

Im sorry if calling you out on your foul attitude hurts, the truth often does.

Case and point you’re rude and you still have no idea what you’re talking about.

Again you proven my point by bringing up RTL.
RTL works as a closer for many D/D elementalist, who quickly pop up electric shield, kd with a blowblack, switch to fire, put burn then turn to earth attunement and put down serious bleeds, cripple and KD

Unless you’re another glass cannon build that relies on 30/30/x build you’re not going to be using your air attacks other than for an opener or a finisher.

Did I mention I too have a thief.
Who is 80 and geared.

I can lay down a fire field and anyone with a jump finisher can get a fire aura.
Does this mean THEY depend on fire aura like you depend on stealth?

Irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is on whether or not stealth is a cross class nerf. Did you know my guardian can get stealthed? Did you know that I get the revealed debuff for 4 seconds as well? Did you know that if I attack someone while I’m downed and my thief buddy drops a shadow refuge that I’ll have a 4 second revealed debuff meaning he can’t stealth me to rez?

Yeah.

And you’ve been CIVIL?
LAWL, I refer to you to your first post which you have deleted which I have quoted.
This is what you call Civil.

Yes, the first part of my post were three facts stated in the SotGs.

The second part of my post noted it was ironic he was telling other players they were QQing when in fact he was practicing what he preached against. The last paragraph told him the class isn’t exactly in a terrible position and called for him to stop complaining.

Very rude, I agree.

Im sorry if calling you out on your foul attitude hurts, the truth often does.

You’re the one who’s calling me a lout every post you make, multiple times, I’d say this might be an instance of the pot calling the kettle black.

Regardless,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Again you proven my point by bringing up RTL.
RTL works as a closer for many D/D elementalist, who quickly pop up electric shield, kd with a blowblack, switch to fire, put burn then turn to earth attunement and put down serious bleeds, cripple and KD

What I meant, the point that you seem to have missed, was that before the RTL nerf eles learned a rotation. After it they had to change and adapt.

It’s the exact same with the thief. Before the revealed nerf you had a 3 second rotation. Now you have a four second rotation. You seem to be upset that now you have to re-learn a rotation, yet eles had to do that as well.

You are the only class in the game that does not have to manage individual cooldowns, rather, one simple initiative bar. I’d say you have it better than you’re making it out to be.

Unless you’re another glass cannon build that relies on 30/30/x build you’re not going to be using your air attacks other than for an opener.

irrelevant.

Did I mention I too have a thief.
Who is 80 and geared.

That was pretty obvious. You seemed to have tried to say that because I play guardian as a main that I should say nothing.

Guess what? I play a thief. Guess what else? Even if I didn’t play one, I’d have to fight them from time to time. So, again, what does me being a guardian have to do with me being on these forums?

Teamkiller.4315:

notice how the omnom nerf wasn’t being complained about in the guardian section? That doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect guardians at all, it just means it doesn’t impact guardians nearly as much as it impacted warriors, who DID complain about it in their forums.

Revealed duration may have technically been a cross-class nerf, but Thieves have an entire tree where nearly every single major trait procs on stealth, so it unequivocally affected thieves harder than any other class.

But I think you’re getting too caught up in the PvP side of the equation.
The reason why most thieves are complaining about it has nothing at all to do with PvP. It barely changed PvP at all. You can still C&D every 4 seconds and basically continue to perm-stealth which everyone agreed was a major issue.

On top of not actually solving the perceived problem in PvP, it nerfed several PvE builds that were already a little underpowered into the ground.

For example:
Because of that 1 second change (which doesn’t seem like much), P/D builds can only stack 8 bleeds instead of 12. That’s a 33% dps nerf to bleed damage.

When a change that is meant to nerf something considered to be overpowered in PvP instead nerfs an entire weapon set’s damage THAT drastically, you better bet people are going to come complain. The fact that you seem to think they shouldn’t boggles the mind.

Teamkiller.4315:

What I meant, the point that you seem to have missed, was that before the RTL nerf eles learned a rotation. After it they had to change and adapt.

The change to RTL did not affect all other Ele’s build unlike the change to Stealth.

You’re way off on this one.

It’s the exact same with the thief. Before the revealed nerf you had a 3 second rotation. Now you have a four second rotation. You seem to be upset that now you have to re-learn a rotation, yet eles had to do that as well.

It is obvious that you don’t play a Thief because it’s not just about rotation.

That extra 1 second that we cannot sneak attack is a cummulative drop in DPS. It doubles the negative effect every rotation — it’s not just 1 second.

You are the only class in the game that does not have to manage individual cooldowns, rather, one simple initiative bar. I’d say you have it better than you’re making it out to be.

I completely disagree. That “simple initiative bar” is shared between weapon set. Once you mismanage that, you’re SOL.

That was pretty obvious. You seemed to have tried to say that because I play guardian as a main that I should say nothing.

Guess what? I play a thief. Guess what else? Even if I didn’t play one, I’d have to fight them from time to time. So, again, what does me being a guardian have to do with me being on these forums?

A lot! You being a Guardian do not share the pain nor care about our pain, so you can say all you want but what you’re saying has no bearing in the Thief forum.

You don’t even understand the fundamental problem.

phor.7952:

When a change meant to nerf something considered to be overpowered in PvP instead nerfs an entire weapon set’s damage THAT drastically, you better bet people are going to come complain. The fact that you seem to think they shouldn’t boggles the mind.

If you look closely, I’m calling him out for complaining about the staying power in PVP and that alone. It was already extremely high, and it still is.

I already acknowledged that PvE thieves need a lot of work.

Teamkiller.4315:

And you’ve been CIVIL?
LAWL, I refer to you to your first post which you have deleted which I have quoted.
This is what you call Civil.

Yes, the first part of my post were three facts stated in the SotGs.

The second part of my post noted it was ironic he was telling other players they were QQing when in fact he was practicing what he preached against. The last paragraph told him the class isn’t exactly in a terrible position and called for him to stop complaining.

Very rude, I agree.

Im sorry if calling you out on your foul attitude hurts, the truth often does.

You’re the one who’s calling me a lout every post you make, multiple times, I’d say this might be an instance of the pot calling the kettle black.

Regardless,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Again you proven my point by bringing up RTL.
RTL works as a closer for many D/D elementalist, who quickly pop up electric shield, kd with a blowblack, switch to fire, put burn then turn to earth attunement and put down serious bleeds, cripple and KD

What I meant, the point that you seem to have missed, was that before the RTL nerf eles learned a rotation. After it they had to change and adapt.

It’s the exact same with the thief. Before the revealed nerf you had a 3 second rotation. Now you have a four second rotation. You seem to be upset that now you have to re-learn a rotation, yet eles had to do that as well.

You are the only class in the game that does not have to manage individual cooldowns, rather, one simple initiative bar. I’d say you have it better than you’re making it out to be.

Unless you’re another glass cannon build that relies on 30/30/x build you’re not going to be using your air attacks other than for an opener.

irrelevant.

You want to actually read what an ad hom actually is

appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason

Your second paragraphs is all Ad homs, dont even try to deny it.
My calling you out on your unwarranted behaviour is pointing out your lack of respect for another person’s concerns.

Now Eles RTL nerf and the rotations.
Ugh no.
There have always been eles who used RTL as a closer and air attacks as control, and relied on condition damage from burn and bleed and there have been glass cannons who have had been toned down and learned a new rotation whilst the previous sort of eles did not have a problem.

The problem with Stealth nerf to 4 second reveal debuff is that it’s UNIVERSAL, meaning even if you’re NOT a D/D thief, your pistol sneak attack is still going to suffer.

This “nerf” was supposed to fix stealth abuse in WvW, but IT DOESNT.
instead its punishing people like the OP from and making them feel worthless because they cant dish out the damage.

4second reveal debuff is a pointless nerf and uncessary and only punishes the thieves PVE gameplay not the PVP.

Really initiative bar is so easy to maintain.
Do you know how easy it is to kill glass cannons after they’ve made a kill?
Super easy, you know why?
No initiative, you know why?
They dont know how to maintain initiative.

Global cooldowns are easier to maintain than initiative.

The change to RTL did not affect all other Ele’s build unlike the change to Stealth.

You’re way off on this one.

Of course, because the mobility evasion thief builds I see on this forum and occasionally use are actually nonexistent and I’ve been imagining things.

Must be.

It is obvious that you don’t play a Thief because it’s not just about rotation.

I don’t use that rotation. You saying there’s only one thief build?

That extra 1 second that we cannot sneak attack is a cummulative drop in DPS. It doubles the negative effect every rotation — it’s not just 1 second.

Yeah, I know it’s a cumulative drop in dps. Compared to what other classes took to their quickness skills, especially warrior, and the engi’s grenade nerf, yours is trivial.

And again, I’m not telling him to stop complaining about dps, even though the builds you are describing are BURST builds and not meant for as high sustained dps, I’m telling him to stop complaining about your staying power.

Tell, me, when you run with other classes, who is most likely to die if you get overrun? Who is LEAST likely to die? What is the ONLY class that can zerg surf and live?

Thief is almost always one of the last to survive, staying power was extremely high before and still is.

I completely disagree. That “simple initiative bar” is shared between weapon set. Once you mismanage that, you’re SOL.

You don’t get it. One initiative bar is easier to manage than 10 weapon skills on 10 different cooldowns. Additionally thieves can see their initiative bar no matter what the set. Other classes can only see 5 out of 10 at any time. (in the case of Ele it is 20). Thieves have it better than other classes. Trust me.

A lot! You being a Guardian do not share the pain nor care about our pain, so you can say all you want but what you’re saying has no bearing in the Thief forum.

Again, I PvP consistently on thief, and it is my favorite class to PvP with. I still PvP with it on a regular basis despite this nerf.

You don’t even understand the fundamental problem.

you blow it out of proportion.

Teamkiller.4315:

If you look closely, I’m calling him out for complaining about the staying power in PVP and that alone. It was already extremely high, and it still is.

I already acknowledged that PvE thieves need a lot of work.

I guess that was maybe in a post that got deleted?

At any rate, I’d mostly agree with you that D/D PvP complaints to the change are usually less than genuine. Staying power was never a problem for this build and it is insignificantly worse now because of the change.

I think because of a few deleted posts, it looked like you were bashing all thieves complaining about the change, and that’s why you’re now getting attacked. :X

The real crux of the matter is that it did nothing to fix the issue for which it was proposed (chaining stealth) but instead created clunky rotations, so in my mind the fact that D/D PvP didn’t really take a viability hit doesn’t really matter. It still negatively affects their gameplay in a pretty clearly unintended way, so I don’t see the problem with them complaining about it.

Teamkiller.4315:

Yeah, I know it’s a cumulative drop in dps. Compared to what other classes took to their quickness skills, especially warrior, and the engi’s grenade nerf, yours is trivial.

Trivial if you’re only talking about a certain D/P PvP Thief build, correct.

The nerf to quickness certainly doesn’t affect warriors any worse than it affects S/P Thieves(haste + pistol whip AND the critical haste trait), and it definitely didn’t reduce any Warrior build’s cumulative DPS as much as the revealed change hit P/D.

Teamkiller, I’m afraid you’re approaching this from the wrong angle. You are correct in that the change to Revealed has changed pretty much nothing in PvP. That’s the entire problem. Instead of balancing out PvP, it made PvE rotations more awkward, unwieldy and unnatural. That is why we are complaining. Because the “fix” did nothing. At all. Just made PvE a smidgeon worse.

You want to actually learn to read what an ad hom actually is

appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason

Your second paragraphs is all Ad homs, dont even try to deny it.
My calling you out on your unwarranted behaviour is pointing out your lack of respect for another person’s concerns.

Because frankly the OP was pretty rude and generalizing everyone who had complaints about thieves the same way you describe me as treating his complaints.

Seems like someone has a double standard?

Also, wrong definition of Ad Hom. That’s another fallacy called appeal to emotion. Ad hom is simply

" is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument".

There have always been eles who used RTL as a closer and air attacks as control, and relied on condition damage from burn and bleed and there have been glass cannons who have had been toned down and learned a new rotation whilst the previous sort of eles did not have a problem.

Now there can be thieves that learn a new rotation as well!

The problem with Stealth nerf to 4 second reveal debuff is that it’s UNIVERSAL, meaning even if you’re NOT a D/D thief, your pistol sneak attack is still going to suffer.

Because mobility thieves don’t exist, because no one uses withdraw or signet of malice, and thief builds that don’t rely on sneak attack every 3/4 seconds don’t exist.

Yup, I believe you 100%.

This “nerf” was supposed to fix stealth abuse in WvW, but IT DOESNT.
instead its punishing people like the OP from and making them feel worthless because they cant dish out the damage.

Trust me, you can still dish out the damage. I ate a 7.5k backstab + 4k heartseeker yesterday from a GC thief. Yes, he was full GC and went down to 4-5 autoattacks but trust me, you can still dish out the damage.

Remember what I said about my armor rating being at 3.2k?

4second reveal debuff is a pointless nerf and uncessary and only punishes the thieves PVE gameplay not the PVP.

Yep, I agree. Well, it punishes PvP a little.

This guy, tho, is complaining about PvP, not PvE. I have no problem with people who complain about PvE thieves because frankly, they were underpowered BEFORE the patch.

Really initiative bar is so easy to maintain.
Do you know how easy it is to kill glass cannons after they’ve made a kill?
Super easy, you know why?
No initiative, you know why?
They dont know how to maintain initiative.

Wrong answer. Do you know how easy it is to kill glass cannons?
Super easy, you know why?
Because they’re GLASS.

Except thieves were the exception to that rule because of their extreme mobility and stealth. Now they made them easier to kill after the thief attacks, and the dude is complaining about their previously extreme staying power coming down a notch.

I’m displeased.

Global cooldowns are easier to maintain than initiative.

no

Teamkiller.4315:

The change to RTL did not affect all other Ele’s build unlike the change to Stealth.

You’re way off on this one.

Of course, because the mobility evasion thief builds I see on this forum and occasionally use are actually nonexistent and I’ve been imagining things.

Must be.

Yes, you are a victim of your own dillusions.

Because the Devs agree in the recent SotG, Thieves needs mobility.

It is obvious that you don’t play a Thief because it’s not just about rotation.

I don’t use that rotation. You saying there’s only one thief build?

Pick a rotation. Go on, pick one. Oh, pick the one that YOU use.

We’ll see.

That extra 1 second that we cannot sneak attack is a cummulative drop in DPS. It doubles the negative effect every rotation — it’s not just 1 second.

Yeah, I know it’s a cumulative drop in dps. Compared to what other classes took to their quickness skills, especially warrior, and the engi’s grenade nerf, yours is trivial.

LOL! You agree that it is cumulative drop in DPS and you call it “trivial”?!

Wow. Just WOW!!!

Talk about out of touch.

And again, I’m not telling him to stop complaining about dps, even though the builds you are describing are BURST builds and not meant for as high sustained dps, I’m telling him to stop complaining about your staying power.

Again. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

So please, pick a build, rotation, whatever.

We’ll see.

Tell, me, when you run with other classes, who is most likely to die if you get overrun? Who is LEAST likely to die? What is the ONLY class that can zerg surf and live?

Mesmer.

There.

What’s your point?

Thief is almost always one of the last to survive, staying power was extremely high before and still is.

I completely disagree. (see last response)

I completely disagree. That “simple initiative bar” is shared between weapon set. Once you mismanage that, you’re SOL.

You don’t get it. One initiative bar is easier to manage than 10 weapon skills on 10 different cooldowns. Additionally thieves can see their initiative bar no matter what the set. Other classes can only see 5 out of 10 at any time. (in the case of Ele it is 20). Thieves have it better than other classes. Trust me.

I don’t trust you because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Typically, weapon swapping has ~10s cooldown, and by the time you burn all skills in the current weapon set, the other set is ready to go.

It’s laughable to see that you think Ele manage 20 CDs at all times. lol.

A lot! You being a Guardian do not share the pain nor care about our pain, so you can say all you want but what you’re saying has no bearing in the Thief forum.

Again, I PvP consistently on thief, and it is my favorite class to PvP with. I still PvP with it on a regular basis despite this nerf.

Irrelevant. Your posts says otherwise.

You don’t even understand the fundamental problem.

you blow it out of proportion.

You’re the one who have to include other classes into the discussion.

Yes, you are a victim of your own dillusions.

Because the Devs agree in the recent SotG, Thieves needs mobility.

Pretty sure I’m not deluded. Want me to link some of these builds for you?

Pick a rotation. Go on, pick one. Oh, pick the one that YOU use.

We’ll see.

BV unload steal-mug backstab HS if low, otherwise autoattack BP HS (restealthed from here)

I beat the majority of other thieves 1v1 with this.

LOL! You agree that it is cumulative drop in DPS and you call it “trivial”?!

Wow. Just WOW!!!

Talk about out of touch.

Because thieves need more dps?

Thieves have the highest single target dps in the game, and still do, especially now that frenzy HB took a massive massive nerf.

Again. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

So please, pick a build, rotation, whatever.

We’ll see.

Again, find me a video of any other class zerg surfing other than a thief.

I can link you a bunch WITH thieves, if you’d like.

Your staying power is enormous.

Mesmer.

There.

What’s your point?

Lolwut?

Notice you picked the only other class with reasonable access to on demand stealth? cough affected by revealed too cough. Also, they have nowhere near a thief’s staying power.

Thief is almost always one of the last to survive, staying power was extremely high before and still is.

Fine, find me a video of a guy who consistently zerg surfs as a mesmer. And gets kills while he’s at it.

I don’t trust you because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Typically, weapon swapping has ~10s cooldown, and by the time you burn all skills in the current weapon set, the other set is ready to go.

Typically, the last two weapon skills have 20-40 second cooldowns.

Ready to go? Don’t make me laugh.

It’s laughable to see that you think Ele manage 20 CDs at all times. lol.

They switch attunements REALLY quickly. So yes, they are managing many more CDs than a thief. Do you know how they keep all those boons up all the time? Combo fields and finishers with their own rotations. don’t trivialize playing an ele, it’s a lot harder than it looks.

Irrelevant. Your posts says otherwise.

Because I’m not crying about the nerfs? Right…

Teamkiller.4315:

Pretty sure I’m not deluded. Want me to link some of these builds for you?

And what would that prove?

The fundamental problem is still there.

BV unload steal-mug backstab HS if low, otherwise autoattack BP HS (restealthed from here)

I beat the majority of other thieves 1v1 with this.

Now tell me, how is that rotation affected by the Stealth nerf?

It didn’t. So your perspective of the problem is too narrow.

Because thieves need more dps?

Thieves have the highest single target dps in the game, and still do, especially now that frenzy HB took a massive massive nerf.

Again, narrow perspective.

Again, find me a video of any other class zerg surfing other than a thief.

I can link you a bunch WITH thieves, if you’d like.

Your staying power is enormous.

“staying power is enormous” YET “zerg surfing other than a thief”

Lolwut?

Notice you picked the only other class with reasonable access to on demand stealth? cough affected by revealed too cough. Also, they have nowhere near a thief’s staying power.

You keep on saying that other classes are affected by reveal too yet you have not posted in what way they are affected.

Instead, you just want us to “trust” you. Wow.

Thief is almost always one of the last to survive, staying power was extremely high before and still is.

I disagree. Trust me, you’re wrong.

See that?

Fine, find me a video of a guy who consistently zerg surfs as a mesmer. And gets kills while he’s at it.

After you find me a video of a purple unicorn with bat wings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

lol you don’t even know what that means. :p

Typically, the last two weapon skills have 20-40 second cooldowns.

Ready to go? Don’t make me laugh.

And you use them why?

Because I’m not crying about the nerfs? Right…

har har.

He was?
In your OP you even understood that QQ was synonymous with Complains.

if you did what you were smart enough to understand from the meaning of QQ in that sentence to be a synonym of complain. As though no one ever came into the Thief forum before to COMPLAIN/QQ about thieves being able to kill them and they cant do anything about it or complain/QQ about thieves stealthing and never to be seen again yet you still went to attack him with ad homs, despite his decoded sentence meaning “what do you think people will complain about next?”

Why is that? You said it yourself it was rude.

There can be new thief rotations?
Can be?
That implies there was a choice.
Is there really a choice?

And why is signet of malice in this when its a healing signet and not an escape tool like withdraw, are you talking about hide in shadow being a precursor to thieves’s sneak attacks, lol.

again pointlessly redundant.

Oh I see so there was personal emotions behind this.

Trust me, you can still dish out the damage. I ate a 7.5k backstab + 4k heartseeker yesterday from a GC thief. Yes, he was full GC and went down to 4-5 autoattacks but trust me, you can still dish out the damage.

Remember what I said about my armor rating being at 3.2k?

You ever thought that maybe, I dunno just a hunch, you could be bad and let a thief for 11.5k worth of damage and then dying to a couple of auto attacks?

Sounds like you have pretty crappy hp to me.

See when I thieve, most guardians provide a challenge.

They have those annoying protection buffs, aegis and snares, Id go invisible they spin around in place with a GS making it hard for me to come close to them also, makes front and back impossible to detect.

The moment I come out of stealth they hit me with an immob, if I were a bad thief I would be brown bread but luckily I can shadow step away and call it a day they aint worth the fight.

Ive had my fair share of pretty bad elementalists who stand still and get ambushed and die in one sneak attack and a couple of heart seekers.

And some, even see me vanish and instead of trying to flush me out, run around in circles waiting for me to pop, of course being specced for shadow I have increased mobility in stealth so i can shadow their steps and backstab them and finish them off, easy pickings.

But there elementalists who play eles like i do, when confronted with a thief, put down our aoes and spray the area with cone attacks, smart thieves run away, bad thieves stay around to get killed.

The problem is you, not thieves.

Now you’re just being annoying again.
Glass cannons arent specced for survivability.
Initiative is part of survival, in the form of using HS to leap away, CnD to get another quick stealth and recover hp else where safely, these are traits found in shadow and trickery

Oh and heres a trick on how you learn to manage your cool downs on your weapons, time it with another skills cooldown when you switch weapons.

Messing up int and having int being shared on 2 weapons means your SOL.

I play an ele and I manage 4 cooldowns and I do just fine from using cooldown timers from one bar to keep track of the cool down from another.

And what would that prove?

The fundamental problem is still there.

Look back at what this quote chain was about, and you will see. It has nothing to do with the “fundamental problem” of a smidgen less dps in PvE, which again, I already said needs fixing.

Now tell me, how is that rotation affected by the Stealth nerf?

It didn’t. So your perspective of the problem is too narrow.

I need to wait an extra half second in BP to cast HS because I’m revealed for 4 seconds instead of 3.

I don’t really notice it, however. And I do not PvE with my thief, which again, I already said needs tweaking.

Again, narrow perspective.

Again, he’s complaining about staying power, not PvE, which for the third fourth fifth time I’ve already said needs fixing.

“staying power is enormous” YET “zerg surfing other than a thief”

Thieves can zerg surf and get kills if they are good, whereas a good guardian or mesmer would die?

You keep on saying that other classes are affected by reveal too yet you have not posted in what way they are affected.

Instead, you just want us to “trust” you. Wow.

Very very minorly, except for mesmers who are still affected minorly.

But that wasn’t the issue HERE, the issue is him refusing to acknowledge the stealth nerf as a cross class nerf that happened to impact thieves the most.

I disagree. Trust me, you’re wrong.

See that?

Where did I say trust me and REFUSE to provide evidence? If you don’t trust my word just ask for the evidence.

I’ve only used the words “trust me” twice in this entire thread. One time is that thieves can output enormous dps still. I can go find a thief in SF to practice on my 3.2k armor guard and screenshot the damage if you need.

The second time is saying you have it better than a lot of other classes when it comes to cooldown management. You have ONE global cooldown whereas other classes have TEN (and eles have TWENTY). D/D backstab builds usually use two skills, and before their opponent is low only ONE skill.

Clearly you think you are extremely clever in turning my “reasoning” around on me when you just fabricated an argument you say I made.

Lol.

After you find me a video of a purple unicorn with bat wings.

You brought up mesmer as a class that can zerg surf as well as a thief, so prove it.

lol you don’t even know what that means. :p

I already gave you the definition in an earlier post, how much do you want to bet I don’t know what it means, especially when the definition is on the first sentence in the link.

And you use them why?

Because they are important.

har har.

to be completely honest, from an objective point of view, your posts to me have much less substance than your posts elsewhere…or even your EARLIER post to me. It really seems like you’re just trying to be witty while avoiding arguments.

Next patch will be a buff because thief qq too much.

There can be new thief rotations?
Can be?
That implies there was a choice.
Is there really a choice?

…um…yes? There’s a choice. You can keep using your old rotation or you can adapt to the one second extra revealed.

And why is signet of malice in this when its a healing signet and not an escape tool like withdraw, are you talking about hide in shadow being a precursor to thieves’s sneak attacks, lol.

Because they are healing skills that do not give stealth, whereas you seem to think long uptimes of stealth are absolutely necessary for a thief (hint, the other really strong thief build prior to the pistol whip nerf did not rely on long uptimes of stealth.)

Oh I see so there was personal emotions behind this.

Trust me, you can still dish out the damage. I ate a 7.5k backstab + 4k heartseeker yesterday from a GC thief. Yes, he was full GC and went down to 4-5 autoattacks but trust me, you can still dish out the damage.

Remember what I said about my armor rating being at 3.2k?

You ever thought that maybe, I dunno just a hunch, you could be bad and let a thief for 11.5k worth of damage and then dying to a couple of auto attacks?

No, because if you READ you would notice that I hit him four or five times with autoattacks and he went down. It’s hard to do that when I died, so the natural conclusion is that I didn’t die.

Right?

Also, you’re welcome to see if I really am a bad guardian who dies to thieves a lot. I can assure you I don’t have any problems fighting most thieves I come across. (good thieves kill me, but then again, they are good players and deserve to)

Sounds like you have pretty crappy hp to me.

See when I thieve, most guardians provide a challenge.

See it’s hard to see a steal coming, I blocked his Mug with my first aegis but I didn’t react to the backstab because I didn’t even know he was there. I dodged 2 heartseekers, and ate a third one, then healed. I don’t actually need to describe this fight to you, do I? Rest assured, we didn’t lose.

It was also 2 on 2, not 1 on 1.

They have those annoying protection buffs, aegis and snares, Id go invisible they spin around in place with a GS making it hard for me to come close to them also, makes front and back impossible to detect.

I know how to fight thieves on my guardian.

The moment I come out of stealth they hit me with an immob, if I were a bad thief I would be brown bread but luckily I can shadow step away and call it a day they aint worth the fight.

And so can any thief that the guardian cannot burst down. I was lucky I downed that thief because he strafed around in Shadow Refuge taking autoattacks, so yes he was bad. I cannot reliably kill them if they use shadowstep at all because they have a double snarebreaker with shadowstep.

Also my build is support, not design for duels, so naturally I won’t kill them unless I have someone bursting, it’s a duel so they won’t run, or they are just really bad (my partner was a warrior, if that matters), or if they get overconfident and/or overcommit.

The problem is you, not thieves.

You need to check my post history. I absolutely do not and have not ever called thieves OP. I have commented that it is annoying to kill them given that many run as soon as they are losing, and they are very VERY good at it. I don’t necessarily agree with the 4 second revealed debuff but this guy, the OP, was complaining about thieves’ staying power in pvp, and I’d like to just inform him that it is ENORMOUS and he shouldn’t be complaining because as is thieves still have an enormous amount of it.

Oh and heres a trick on how you learn to manage your cool downs on your weapons, time it with another skills cooldown when you switch weapons.

I run two completely different weapons for different purposes because I am large scale support, I am not specced for duels nor small skirmishes. Hence, I do not switch weapons often because there’s honestly not much of a point, as staff is completely a support weapon, so I never switch into it unless I am trying to chase said thief.

Messing up int and having int being shared on 2 weapons means your SOL.

One word:

Utilities.

I play an ele and I manage 4 cooldowns and I do just fine from using cooldown timers from one bar to keep track of the cool down from another.

Then you must be either really good or really bad. Really good as in it’s effortless for you, or really bad in that you’re not getting the most out of constantly switching and combo’ing your own fields that you will place down for multiple purposes (ring of fire to prep for fire grab AND as a fire field to stack might with your earth attunement, for example. Those cooldowns all need to be managed)

They will nerf mug and accidently break it, causing steal to nolonger work if you have it. They’ll eventually nerf cloak and dagger damage and add reveal to it anyways, and at the same time break it, causing stealth to sometimes not trigger. Another shortbow dmg nerf as well which will break infiltrator arrow to keep teleporting you into the ground where you fall to your death in an empty void.

Teamkiller.4315:

Look back at what this quote chain was about, and you will see. It has nothing to do with the “fundamental problem” of a smidgen less dps in PvE, which again, I already said needs fixing.

The fundamental problem is the staying power like the OP said. To compensate for that, the Thief are given a lot of DPS.

With the changes on revealed, we get laskluster staying power and cummulative broken negative effect in our DPS.

Whether it is in PvP or in PvE, the negative effect of stealth in our DPS is significant, noticeable, and annoying.

I don’t really notice it, however. And I do not PvE with my thief, which again, I already said needs tweaking.

Whether you notice it or not is not relevant. The fact is, it’s there. And I disagree, it is noticeable.

Again, he’s complaining about staying power, not PvE, which for the third fourth fifth time I’ve already said needs fixing.

Thief has no staying power. You get caught, you’re dead. You said it yourself, GC breaks like glass.

So now that with extra 1s of reveal, it is now a guaranteed anti-GC, right? But that is not the case, instead that extra 1s only nerfed the DPS.

Again, back to the fundamental problem.

Thieves can zerg surf and get kills if they are good, whereas a good guardian or mesmer would die?

In your opinion.

Very very minorly, except for mesmers who are still affected minorly.

But that wasn’t the issue HERE, the issue is him refusing to acknowledge the stealth nerf as a cross class nerf that happened to impact thieves the most.

The problem here is, you got it all wrong.

The nerf is targetted on Thieves and it just so happen that other class are affected also in really negligible level.

You are arguing based on your narrow perspective rather than trying to see it from our perspective.

Where did I say trust me and REFUSE to provide evidence? If you don’t trust my word just ask for the evidence.

The only “evidence” you have shown is your opinion. So what makes your “evidence” better than my “evidence”?

If you want me or anyone to trust you, then you have to present and acknowledge facts instead of trying to brush it off by saying “trust me”.

I’ve only used the words “trust me” twice in this entire thread. One time is that thieves can output enormous dps still. I can go find a thief in SF to practice on my 3.2k armor guard and screenshot the damage if you need.

That doesn’t prove anything. The fact of the matter is you seems to be confused on what DPS means versus to what Burst damage means.

DPS requires staying power that relied heavily on Stealth. With the 1 second extra reveal, we have to run away/dodge/evade/etc until we can stealth again. We stay, we die.

The second time is saying you have it better than a lot of other classes when it comes to cooldown management.

It is impossible to trust you when you say things like these because it is baseless and non-factual.

Clearly you think you are extremely clever in turning my “reasoning” around on me when you just fabricated an argument you say I made.

Lol.

I have not made an argument until now and I don’t have to fabricate anything since everyone can read what you posted.

You brought up mesmer as a class that can zerg surf as well as a thief, so prove it.

You asked the question. I answered. And I asked, “what’s your point?”

If you didn’t get my point, then I’ll explain it so you would understand.

Any profession can survive a zerg if they know what they are doing.

That’s my point. What’s yours?

I already gave you the definition in an earlier post, how much do you want to bet I don’t know what it means, especially when the definition is on the first sentence in the link.

If you understood it, then why are you calling my post an Ad Hom?

Clearly you do not understand.

Because they are important.

So are you telling me that you blow all your CDs everytime you swap weapons?

If not, then I am correct to assume that you are full of it when you say that Ele manages 20 CDs. Because at any given time, they are probably only managing 5-8 skills in between attunements, similar to weapon swapping professions.

to be completely honest, from an objective point of view, your posts to me have much less substance than your posts elsewhere…or even your EARLIER post to me. It really seems like you’re just trying to be witty while avoiding arguments.

I try not to bother so much as to reply to posts such as yours in a normal manner since honestly, you are dead wrong in many levels that it’s ridiculous to point them all out.

If you really believe what you believe then so be it. But you are not going to convince anyone with your narrow perspective/opinion — may it be PvP, PvE, or WvW

runeblade.7514:

Next patch will be a buff because thief qq too much.

Too much?
I don’t think there is such a thing when a PvP patch change nerfs a PvE build’s damage by nearly 33%. Maybe if that build was too powerful before the patch, but in our case it wasn’t.

The vast majority of the QQ is well-deserved criticism against an ill-conceived change.

Teamkiller smells like ele … MUG nerf deserved xD … why doesn’t anet give us rotten apples to throw at targets tbh or atleast to throw at rotten trolls such as teamkiller here.

Imo ANYONE that has not played a thief at lvl 80 and in sPvP should not even be here.

uzu.7351:

Imo ANYONE that has not played a thief at lvl 80 and in sPvP should not even be here.

I’d amend that to include competent enemies, a thief can rock a huge group of new players but one experienced enemy can annihilate you.

The fundamental problem is the staying power like the OP said. To compensate for that, the Thief are given a lot of DPS.

Lolwut?

You realize that as a guardian I am lucky, I have access to a lot of pbaoes. Certain classes and builds like longbow ranger and pistol pistol thieves cannot hit ANYTHING without a target. Stealth is a hard counter to them.

Am I calling them OP? No. However, what I am saying is that they suddenly are immune to half the enemy’s dps, especially physical projectiles, in stealth, and enemies cannot reliably hit them with gap closers until it’s too late and they can escape.

Rinse and repeat.

Thief has enormous staying power, sorry, but you really should play the class better if you don’t think so.

With the changes on revealed, we get laskluster staying power and cummulative broken negative effect in our DPS.

No, your staying power is still awesome. Now your enemy just has to burst you in 4 seconds instead of 3, and you also have the benefit of dodging and weapon evade skills.

You’re not going to argue that staying power is bad for a thief.

As for DPS, like I said, I don’t particularly care for the nerf nor necessarily feel it’s justified, but your staying power? That’s still pretty darn high.

Whether it is in PvP or in PvE, the negative effect of stealth in our DPS is significant, noticeable, and annoying.

You are very lucky. Not many other classes can get away quite like a thief and reset fights.

Whether you notice it or not is not relevant. The fact is, it’s there. And I disagree, it is noticeable.

Right, because I play a guardian main, so my opinions don’t matter, this is obvious.

Or, maybe, because I disagree with you, my opinions don’t matter?

Huh

Thief has no staying power. You get caught, you’re dead. You said it yourself, GC breaks like glass.

Hence why good thieves have 30 in SA. Also, good glass thieves don’t get caught very often, because there’s this mechanic called stealth.

So now that with extra 1s of reveal, it is now a guaranteed anti-GC, right? But that is not the case, instead that extra 1s only nerfed the DPS.

Not necessarily, you have 1 extra second to burst a GC. You have a much higher chance of killing a glass cannon. Glass cannon DPS also goes down.

Staying power is reduced, for thieves that invest in staying power line, they are still pretty survivable compared to other classes.

What’s the problem? Don’t say PvE, cause OP isn’t complaining about PvE, and I’m not saying the patch is even justified. I’m just mentioning that the nerf to staying power isn’t classbreaking. Jeez.

In your opinion.

Do I have to link very obviously available Vids for you to actually like acknowledge anything?

The nerf is targetted on Thieves and it just so happen that other class are affected also in really negligible level.

Quickness nerf affected warriors the most out of any class. So did Omnom nerfs. Other classes were affected at a comparatively negligible level for the Omnom nerf, because their staying power are all significantly higher than the warriors’.

Does that mean they aren’t cross class nerfs? No it doesn’t.

The original point was rizzle refused to acknowledge that warriors mesmers or eles got nerfed…despite them getting nerfed. It’s really obvious. He called them “Balancing issues” whereas this stealth chance is a “nerf”? double standard much?

You are arguing based on your narrow perspective rather than trying to see it from our perspective.

Likewise, you can only see it from a thief’s perspective, it seems.

Where did I say trust me and REFUSE to provide evidence? If you don’t trust my word just ask for the evidence.

The only “evidence” you have shown is your opinion. So what makes your “evidence” better than my “evidence”?

I really hate linking things but I did link the video.

And I shouldn’t have to link another one, but in one of the SoTG the devs mentioned that thieves are easier to play at lower levels than other professions, while the opposite is true at higher levels.

If you’re going to brush it off and force me to give more evidence I’m going to be quite annoyed, but I can find it if needed.

If you want me or anyone to trust you, then you have to present and acknowledge facts instead of trying to brush it off by saying “trust me”.

You mean like…give evidence?

gasp

Which you’ve given none of so far.

That doesn’t prove anything. The fact of the matter is you seems to be confused on what DPS means versus to what Burst damage means.

dps = damage per second = sustained damage.

Dude, thieves have the highest single target dps and highest single target burst as well, this has been repeatedly stated by the game’s designers and that is how the profession is designed.

Again, I can demonstrate for you that they can still hit like a truck. Need me too?

DPS requires staying power that relied heavily on Stealth. With the 1 second extra reveal, we have to run away/dodge/evade/etc until we can stealth again. We stay, we die.

It also requires mobility because your target is going to run evade and generally make it hard for you to hit them. Thieves, apart from eles, have the highest mobility in game.

Again, not talking about PvE. Thief was underpowered before the patch in PvE.

It is impossible to trust you when you say things like these because it is baseless and non-factual.

I can make them “facts” if you want me to. I really don’t want to look through an hour of a SoTG just to prove something really obvious.

I have not made an argument until now and I don’t have to fabricate anything since everyone can read what you posted.

I guess? I didn’t say you made one did I? I said you misrepresented mine.

Any profession can survive a zerg if they know what they are doing.

I think you are wrong.

Well, apparently, so does Yishis. Need a link?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Videos-WvW-Outnumbered-Zerg-Slaying-D-D

Towards the bottom, someone asks if another profession could do this.

That’s my point. What’s yours?

You’re being pedantic.

If you understood it, then why are you calling my post an Ad Hom?

Because instead of attacking the argument, you are attacking the person as not being able to see it from the POV of a thief despite said person having many many hours on sPvP as a thief.

So are you telling me that you blow all your CDs everytime you swap weapons?

No

I’m saying if I use Hammer 5, and I weapon swap twice, it won’t be available immediately, like you said it would.

If not, then I am correct to assume that you are full of it when you say that Ele manages 20 CDs. Because at any given time, they are probably only managing 5-8 skills in between attunements, similar to weapon swapping professions.

hah, I’d like to see you find where I said the Ele manages 20 CD’s at once. The closest you’ll come is me saying they can only see 5 Cooldowns out of 20 at any given time.

See what I mean by misrepresenting an argument?

I try not to bother so much as to reply to posts such as yours in a normal manner since honestly, you are dead wrong in many levels that it’s ridiculous to point them all out.

You seem to be enticed by your own delusions.

That’s, by the way, the correct spelling of delusions.

Hey, I’ll be pedantic too

Ppl not playing thief should not be here! I don’t lurk your forums seeking to spread hate and my lack of skill.

uzu.7351:

Ppl not playing thief should not be here! I don’t lurk your forums seeking to spread hate and my lack of skill.

I play thief.

Also, stop telling people they shouldn’t be here. A lot of people who don’t play thieves still play AGAINST thieves. There are posts on the mesmer forums by guardians asking for tips on how to beat them, likewise there are threads in the guardian forums by warriors asking the same.

Etc. etc.

You seem to have taken sides without even reading the argument. Neither of us is calling the thief class OP or UP. Neither of us thinks the 4 second revealed debuff was the best change.

Also I don’t play ele.

After about 8 total years of mmoing it’s the conclusion I came to. Ppl whine cuz they suck and don’t understand their class, even more so other classes they compete against. Rarely the matter is a subtle case of being OP. Thus -> mewmew stealth just cuz I can’t faceroll the class. Also not killing a class doesn’t get you killed.

P.S. I don’t want a new play style and new…traits and kitten like that. Don’t fix what’s not broken.
Thief was fine and Anet prolly won’t just “reverse” the nerf. So that means buffs of god knows what … given nerfing caltrops .. it just might be buffing scorpion or 1% increased crit chance :>

Teamkiller.4315:

Am I calling them OP? No. However, what I am saying is that they suddenly are immune to half the enemy’s dps, especially physical projectiles, in stealth, and enemies cannot reliably hit them with gap closers until it’s too late and they can escape.

Rinse and repeat.

Thief has enormous staying power, sorry, but you really should play the class better if you don’t think so.

Escaping is proof that thief has lackluster staying power.

You’re just contradicting yourself.

No, your staying power is still awesome. Now your enemy just has to burst you in 4 seconds instead of 3, and you also have the benefit of dodging and weapon evade skills.

You’re not going to argue that staying power is bad for a thief.

As for DPS, like I said, I don’t particularly care for the nerf nor necessarily feel it’s justified, but your staying power? That’s still pretty darn high.

Do we also need to define what “staying power” means?

You are very lucky. Not many other classes can get away quite like a thief and reset fights.

Again, proof of a lackluster staying power.

Keep it rolling.

Right, because I play a guardian main, so my opinions don’t matter, this is obvious.

Or, maybe, because I disagree with you, my opinions don’t matter?

Huh

I never said that your opinion don’t matter. I just don’t believe you and your opinion because your opinion is too narrow and brushes off the fundamental problem.

Hence why good thieves have 30 in SA. Also, good glass thieves don’t get caught very often, because there’s this mechanic called stealth.

Sigh. I can rez too your know. (rollseyes)

You see how your opinion has no bearing in addressing the issue?

Not necessarily, you have 1 extra second to burst a GC. You have a much higher chance of killing a glass cannon. Glass cannon DPS also goes down.

It’s already down.

Staying power is reduced, for thieves that invest in staying power line, they are still pretty survivable compared to other classes.

Too much contradictions.

What’s the problem? Don’t say PvE, cause OP isn’t complaining about PvE, and I’m not saying the patch is even justified. I’m just mentioning that the nerf to staying power isn’t classbreaking. Jeez.

Nobody says that it is a classbreaker, you just made that up.

Do I have to link very obviously available Vids for you to actually like acknowledge anything?

It doesn’t prove anything concerning staying power.

That’s like having one witness to prove a murder.

Quickness nerf affected warriors the most out of any class. So did Omnom nerfs. Other classes were affected at a comparatively negligible level for the Omnom nerf, because their staying power are all significantly higher than the warriors’.

Does that mean they aren’t cross class nerfs? No it doesn’t.

Omnom is not build breaker. Quickness nerf is not build breaker and Thieves are not complaining about that either.

All your arguments are only relevant to your world view.

Likewise, you can only see it from a thief’s perspective, it seems.

Another baseless statement.

I really hate linking things but I did link the video.

And I shouldn’t have to link another one, but in one of the SoTG the devs mentioned that thieves are easier to play at lower levels than other professions, while the opposite is true at higher levels.

If you’re going to brush it off and force me to give more evidence I’m going to be quite annoyed, but I can find it if needed.

What does the ease of playing the profession got to do with the topic?

You mean like…give evidence?

gasp

Which you’ve given none of so far.

You’re the one making all these ridiculous claims, thus the burden of proof is all yours.

Would you still use quickness signet now? How hard is it to dodge rlly.

“Teamkiller.4315:

Am I calling them OP? No. However, what I am saying is that they suddenly are immune to half the enemy’s dps, especially physical projectiles, in stealth, and enemies cannot reliably hit them with gap closers until it’s too late and they can escape."

I doubt you play thief. Two statements you made gave you away tbh. A thief has ZERO staying power…thats why we RUN and HIDE and not STAY cuz we can’t TANK, or do illussions and BUFF ourselves with SHIELDS and CHAINDODGE and sorts.

Basically what YOU want is to kill thieves and you can’t cuz they run. To me personally even the 4 sec stealth CD is hilarious since i bet my kitten off that you wouldn’t even hit on CnD and even more so a backstab afterwards on a moving target. Get a grip and go sleep you make little sense and will only continue to do so and lock this thread with your nonsense.