Guild Wars 2

Everytime I meet another fellow Thief in dungeons , the same story.All of them Running around whit 2 ,3 signets.
Signet of Agility ,Signet of Shadows and Assassin’s Signet.Am I missing something?
You bring no utility to the team or even yourself.
Stop it!
Signet of Agility gives you 4% critical . Are you serious?
Signet of Shadows ,25% speed. What do you need it for ?
Assassin’s Signet , 90 power is nothing.
Seriously am I missing something?

:D + for Op, this thread made me giggle.
That’s why i do not run dungeons:D

Reminds me the same situation (but even worse when I think about it), a 5 signet Warrior in dungeon

Go to thief traits and read about ‘signets of power’ trait in critical strikes line.
those three signets, when activated will give them 15 stacks of might + 15% dmg for their spike combo (mug + c&d + backstab + heartseeker).
So effectively it is about 525 extra power and +15% dmg on top of it.

Ye in PvP ,I use them myself, but wth are you using it for in PvE .

Signet of Agility must have in many dungeon.

Some people optimize/practice for pvp and see pve just as a minor distraction. They probably run dungeons because they want ‘up-to-date’ equipment, not because they like running dungeons and want to excel in that department.

If you build your traits around signets they are significantly more powerful and worth losing the situational utility of the other skills.

Einlanzer.1627:

If you build your traits around signets they are significantly more powerful and worth losing the situational utility of the other skills.

If you build like that, you´ll gonna do only one thing in dungeon, DIE
If your dead, you do zero damage, etc. not worth it

Well normally I’d agree with the OP on the fact that Singets are rarely a good choice in Dungeons.

However given how many Thief abilities just aren’t that great (Poisons, Traps) while others are very situational sometimes Singets really are the best choice.

They should be picked for their “on use” effects however, not for their passive bonuses.

However since changing abilities is a matter of 3 seconds I criticize anyone who doesn’t alter his abilities every so often.

STRanger.5120:

Einlanzer.1627:

If you build your traits around signets they are significantly more powerful and worth losing the situational utility of the other skills.

If you build like that, you´ll gonna do only one thing in dungeon, DIE
If your dead, you do zero damage, etc. not worth it

Granted, it’s less optimal for dungeons than it is for solo play. However, you have to keep in mind that many of the thieves utility skills simply don’t bring that much to the table. The venoms and traps are all fairly lackluster.

Einlanzer.1627:

Granted, it’s less optimal for dungeons than it is for solo play. However, you have to keep in mind that many of the thieves utility skills simply don’t bring that much to the table. The venoms and traps are all fairly lackluster.

That´s true, but for example Shadow Refuge is better than any signet except of Agility one. Caltrops for Condition dmg builds are also great. Even the roll for initiative is great for many builds.
However I agree that traps/venoms are not good for dungeons (with the only exception of venom-sharing build)

Einlanzer.1627:

STRanger.5120:

Einlanzer.1627:

If you build your traits around signets they are significantly more powerful and worth losing the situational utility of the other skills.

If you build like that, you´ll gonna do only one thing in dungeon, DIE
If your dead, you do zero damage, etc. not worth it

Granted, it’s less optimal for dungeons than it is for solo play. However, you have to keep in mind that many of the thieves utility skills simply don’t bring that much to the table. The venoms and traps are all fairly lackluster.

Shadow Refuge is great, so is Smoke Screen even if just for the Blind it applies. Ambush summon actually deals some decent damage, especially the melee one. Caltrops heal you with SoM equipped for a nice amount and bleed the hell out of enemies, since mobs just stand on it, so even a DD build will rake up some good damage with it.

So there are a few things. The other stuff isn’t really worth using, though. Maybe Spider Venom if you’re condition specced.

There are plenty of utilitis that you can use as a thief.
Roll for initiative.Stunbreak .Cures imobilise ,chilled, crippled.Its a great dodge .Gives you 6 initiave.What more would you want as a thief.Instead you take signet of shadows?
Blinding powder.A free res .Possibly 2 initiative , heal , condition cure.
Shadow Step.Stun break , condition cure.Great mobility skill.
Smoke Screen. 7 seconds blind and reflects projectiles.
Shadow Refuge .Do I need to talk about this one too?
Any of those better in any kind of build for yourself and the party then any kind of signet.

Shadow refuge, Smoke screen blinding powder.

Then take master of deception trait and make the fullest use of it.

I often run two signets in dungeons. Agility is awesome for a full energy bar, cleanse and stun break. While Signet of Shadows is not super awesome, it is an 1200 range AoE blind that is useful at times, as well in combat movement speed increase which helps avoid AoE and other nasties as well as doing jumps while in-combat.

I occasionally I switch out SoS, depending on fight, but really there is not a lot to switch to. I would use caltrops if I was condition spec in PvE, but I am not. Blinding Powder is what I use most as I have both stealth heal abilities that I pass on to my group mates. Roll for Initiative is the only other one I would consider using and I know for sure I would just roll myself off a ledge with it

I run around with Infiltrator’s Signet and Signet of Shadows all the time, including dungeons. The 25% speed boost is very useful. And they have really good active effects, on relatively low cooldowns.

SoA is amazing, bravo to any thief I see using it well. I do question when I see other thieves using SoS long-term though. Swap it in for a jumping segment if you want a safety net, but there’s no reason to be running into boss fights with it, especially when it is obvious they never activate it.

Assassin’s Signet? Unless they’re running some incredible signet synergy and regularly using it to fuel some kind of initiative dump I can’t see it being worth the slot.

ASP.8093:

I run around with Infiltrator’s Signet and Signet of Shadows all the time, including dungeons. The 25% speed boost is very useful. And they have really good active effects, on relatively low cooldowns.

25% speed usefull for what exacly? wait not usefull , Very usefull.Realy good effect.A blind !
None of those effects are needed in PvE.I’ve ran every dungeon and all the condition removal you’ll ever need you get whit Hide in Shadow.You don’t need extra dodges , you have plenty whitout Signet of Agility .But ok , signet of agility can be generaly useful but surely not a must.Don’t exagerate .But who in the right mind would take Signet of Shadows over Roll for Initiative.Or Assassin’s signet over Shadow Refuge.
Signets are completly worthless to your team and not even that useful or essential for you either.
I realy feel reluctant to invite any other Thief to my group because its very likely that they are a complet fail and its sad because thief is realy a great proffesion.And you can tell everytime you see those ,wanna be thieves, whit signets, they are going to be on the ground the whole time.It became almost a certainty.

well not sure but
shadow refuge / spider vennom are a must in dungeons as far as i saw
even if i am not an dungeon player “made 3 this month so far” , i saw that spider vennom really shine vs bosses
as an 3’rd utility i prefer haste for time quests or burst bosses

NightyNight.1823:

.You don’t need extra dodges , you have plenty whitout Signet of Agility .But ok , signet of agility can be generaly useful but surely not a must

Depends on synergy. Blowing SoA for me can quickly give me 11 might stacks (770 offensive stat points), 2 initiative, drop damaging/crippling caltrops everywhere, heal me for several thousand HP, grant the valuable invulnerable periods of 3 dodges, and condition cure the group and I.

Not everyone runs a build that benefits that heavily from signet/dodge synergy, but the fact that SoA has synergistic potential with so much stuff makes it a very very powerful ability.

NightyNight.1823:

25% speed usefull for what exacly?

Moving around a bunch, which is a thing that thieves do constantly.
It’s not the best skill for every situation. But it’s quite good in most.

NightyNight.1823:

But who in the right mind would take Signet of Shadows over Roll for Initiative.

Someone who’s already running Withdraw, which is Roll for Initiative’s far superior cousin, perhaps?
And why do you have Roll’s 60-second cooldown stinking up your bar when you could get a much more consistently-available stun break from other skills?

You do love to exagerate don’t you.Far superior , very useful.It wont make your points more valid than they actualy are.
SoS is not good for almost any situation. Its good only for some situations.Like the new Swamp map or ARAH pass the ball thing around.Only situations like those its actualy usefull.You don’t need 25% speed to run around a bunch of mobs .Thats a complete waste of an actualy usefull utility.But haha..why take roll for initiative.You have withdray .Its not like its a break stun, and gives you 6 initiative to blow more damage and a reliable dodge no ..I’ll roll SoS because I’m pro.I bet you are.

The reason a lot of thieves use signets is because our abilities aren’t that great while our signets are actually quite a bit better than those offered to other classes. Also, yes, we have a lot of abilities that help us capitalize on their use. I’m not usually dead either.

What I personally use:

Signet of Shadows: Lets’ me run faster, which is really all I want. Obvious PVE benefits, but being able to get around combat quickly is something a lot of classes strive for and we have such an easy obvious solution right in front of us. I rarely use the blind portion of the attack. I don’t find blind to be a really powerful mitigation technique in PVE; Most of the things you’d want to blind are immune to it, and most of the things that can be blinded don’t have enough HP to worry about in the first place. Its’ really good in PVP, but even then, I’d still rather just walk faster. Its’ usually the last signet I’d pop for might/initiative.

Next up is Infiltrator’s Signet which is just straight up initiative regain. This is useful just because initiative fuels the majority of what I do. I usually combine this with acrobatics’ initiative regen trait to have a ridiculous ability spam potential.

Signet of Malice. Yes, I already know what you’re thinking and I don’t necessarily think you’re wrong for thinking it either. Still, it becomes a much better ability, and I think worth using over your other heals, when its’ giving you 5 stacks of might and two initiative every time you use it (which is 12 seconds instead of 15 since we’re traited.) I’ve thought about using one of the heal activated runes since I tend to just spam the crap out of it anyway.

Signet of Agility isn’t much precision, but its’ active ability is actually pretty kitten powerful; It refills all your endurance and cures a condition for everyone around you. I don’t tend to use it because I have so much friggin’ initiative regain already that using Flanking Strike to dodge everything is very much an option, but I definitely has the potential to change a battle for you.

Hey guess what, this post is ending abruptly because I have to go do thanksgiving.
I’ll finish it when/if I get back.

NightyNight.1823:

None of those effects are needed in PvE.I’ve ran every dungeon and all the condition removal you’ll ever need you get whit Hide in Shadow.You don’t need extra dodges , you have plenty whitout Signet of Agility.

While I thought your OP was interesting, now you are just being arrogant. Play style and build should be a big part of what utility you use, its not just about X being better then Y. While I can agree that SoS may not be the best choice a lot of the time, your above statement is in my opinion so far off the mark you are letting arrogance cloud judgement.

When AoE and agony one shot you in the 20+ fractals extra dodges are always a good thing to have. The conditional removal is group utility, I use it as much to cleanse myself and the group of a condition that was just dropped on us, letting us all save our personal removals for another time. Not everyone runs with Hide in Shadows as well, so SoA becomes more important for them in that regard.

Ye Infiltrator’s signet .Even more of a useless ability in PvE.1 initiative in 10 seconds.Thats huge! And breaks stun and shadow step to your opponent. Thats another smart way to go against mobs.
Signet of Malice is good one tho.

NightyNight.1823:

But haha..why take roll for initiative.You have withdray .Its not like its a break stun, and gives you 6 initiative to blow more damage and a reliable dodge no ..I’ll roll SoS because I’m pro.I bet you are.

6 initiative and a stun break every 60 seconds is hardly spectacular. A traited Infiltrator’s Signet gives you 2 initiative and a stun break every 24 seconds, and you’re getting initiative when you don’t activate it, too. (It’s the same overall initiative as you get from Roll, by the way.)

Evade + stun break on one skill is nice, but I don’t like having the immobilize removal, stun break, and initiative gain all glued together like that. Oftentimes, half the skill is just going to go to waste when you activate it.

ASP.8093:

NightyNight.1823:

25% speed usefull for what exacly?

Moving around a bunch, which is a thing that thieves do constantly.

It only affects forward movement (in combat), which limits it’s usefulness somewhat

ASP.8093:

NightyNight.1823:

But haha..why take roll for initiative.You have withdray .Its not like its a break stun, and gives you 6 initiative to blow more damage and a reliable dodge no ..I’ll roll SoS because I’m pro.I bet you are.

6 initiative and a stun break every 60 seconds is hardly spectacular. A traited Infiltrator’s Signet gives you 2 initiative and a stun break every 24 seconds, and you’re getting initiative when you don’t activate it, too. (It’s the same overall initiative as you get from Roll, by the way.)

Evade + stun break on one skill is nice, but I don’t like having the immobilize removal, stun break, and initiative gain all glued together like that. Oftentimes, half the skill is just going to go to waste when you activate it.

I already explained why IS is bad as a stun break.And not even effective as a initiative regain.Theres not even a debate to what is better between the skills we mentioned in any kind of build you might be having.But you still going on whit it so I’m gonna stop .Please don’t adress anything else to me .

Here’s how I do it on my thief:

Assassin’s Signet: for power increase and higher damage when activated since I’m a glass cannon build.

Infiltrator’s Signet: Stun breaker and helps with initiative regen on top of Quick Recovery which is an additional 3 initiative every 10 seconds.

Last utility depends on the fight. I always switch this one out depending on the fight. If it’s a heavy hitting ranged mob, smoke screen. All around; shadow refuge. Need to help pull one mob from group? Scorpion Wire.

I always have one slot dedicated to helping out the team.

It’s the same amount of initiative over time. And you don’t have to pop your “save my butt” skill to get it.
You can mitigate the shadowstep. Target one of the adds. Or target nothing. Or dodge away.
Having a single counter to immobilize and stun on your bar with a 60-second cooldown is kind of a crap deal.

Get off your high horse with this “Only I know how to play and don’t you dare talk back to me” nonsense.

Ye.. call me arrogant all you want but don’t mind me if I stay away from the likes of you.For the sake of my sanity

Recently someone posted a link to a very effective S/P build (can’t find the thread now… it’s been buried in hundreds of worthless threads) that relies on initiative regen from crits trait and trait that gives 2 initiative on signet usage. With reduced signet cooldown trait, healing from Signet of Malice and evasion from PW, the author was claiming that he was able to keep up PW spam for nearly a minute while putting out ridiculous damage and solo tanking most of the mobs in the dungeon runs.

I have tested this build in solo PVE (not dungeons yet) and can confirm that it does indeed work, though it’s a bit boring. Don’t judge people and jump to conclusions until you have all the facts.

What do you think thats viable?You’re better off going D/D glass cannon build .You have better utility and better damage.

I found the thread on 11th page.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Signet-Thief-PvE-Dungeon-high-survivability-dps/first#post674511

Let me tell you why it wont work.You can’t sit in 1 place whit thief and expect to survive.Some bosses and mobs takes big chunks of hp that you wont be able to heal.Then you’re left out there in the open whitout any defence or escape utilities.That takes the builds survivability out of the window.
The damage is far from impresive.Its been nerfed only as an utility skill to avoid being spammed.Its been made only to use as an utility skill , intrerupt while maintaining your normal dps.You’re just blowing away your initiative and any utility you have for nothing.
Using stealth over Signets its not only better as initiative refil but better defence whit blinds and heal and duhh invisibility and better utility to the group aswell.
Signets are good for certain abilities that realy have no place in PvE.

Signet of Shadows – I run always with this on, though don’t use any of others – if you haven’t figured it out yet, it also blinds the target, so its a excellent skill to use if you want to approach someone safely and get your c&d in. And ofcourse to save someones kitten who might be getting slammed.

SoS is a waste of a good utility slot.1 blind is nothing and the speed unnecesary.In pvp is good to travel fast and gain on your opponent.I use it there and its great but worthless in PvE.

NightyNight.1823:

Some bosses and mobs takes big chunks of hp that you wont be able to heal.Then you’re left out there in the open whitout any defence or escape utilities.

This is probably the core of your problem. If you’re relying on utilities to save you instead of to supplement your normal damage and mobility then you’re going to want to go for utilities that allow you to make mistakes and still reset to survive the fight. Signets bring more to the table in general, but they aren’t all get-out-of-jail-free cards (SoA is).

The fact is that signet synergy works great both in increasing personal strength and in supporting a group. SoS and AS are somewhat weak on their own, but they still have a higher skill cap than some of the simpler thief abilities. I seriously question thieves that consistently run SoS/AS, but if they know how to use it and are traited for it, more power to them.

Well I said both defence and escape utilities not only utilities.
While theres some what synergy between signets and traits its very little compared to your other options.And I realy can’t can see how signets can support a group.Am I missing something?

All what signet brings to the table is 2 initiative when activated , 2 dodges and a condition cure .The rest are not even worth mentioning.
Lets see what stealth can give you. Hmmm. 2 initiative of course ,you’ll never run out of back stabs or any other stealth atacks which are realy powerful(and actualy shadow refuge refils your initiative completly) , blinds (very useful for your own defence and your party) , heal , a free res, heal your allies when ever you stealth them, invisibility(simply the best defence ever) .
Now ,between you and me, I realy have a hard time deciding which I should go for instead.

If you’re lazy and don’t want to push buttons in PVE go signets. If you die because you don’t know how to dodge it’s your fault. Just run with 1 stun break and whatever utility you want. With 1 stun break and going range with the blackberry pie food you can heal the damage in no time.
And besides, it’s PVE. All people do is skip trash and go straight for boss.

First thing you should know is that Infiltrator’s Signet is not meant to be used alone; you combine it with Acrobatic’s Quick Recovery for another 0.3 initiative per second. Base initiative regen is about .6 per second, so that’s 0.9 initiative a second. Throw on Signet of Malice giving you another 2 initiative every 12 seconds (traited) and you have a grand stinking total of 1.05 initiative per second.

Now, Shadow Arts is a good way to go about it as well, and for Backstab dagger/dagger builds I can see why its’ so attractive and obvious. Infusion of Shadow lets’ you keep CnD used more or less indefinitely, and that’s really all you need. Patience is okay on top of that, although I think there are much better skills you could be utilizing since Patience requires you to accept a DPS loss by sitting in stealth to regain initiative.

Still, it doesn’t really compare to the disgusting amount of damage that I am granted from utilizing Signet of Power in conjunction with signet use. NightyNight keeps overlooking Signet of Power, so I’m going to spend a little bit of time explaining just how kitten useful it is.

I like to use Signet of Malice on cooldown or every 12 seconds because of how I am traited. I am getting 2 initiative and 5 stacks of might for 6.5 seconds (I am traited fully in acrobatics as well) out of every 12. So “half” of the time I have an extra 175 power/malice just from one trait. This is a really significant sustained damage increase by itself, and if these traits only worked with Signet of Malice I would probably still take all of them. It gets better though because they do work with more than Signet of Malice. I could activate 4 signets for a whopping 700 power for the next 6.5 seconds which is a ridiculous amount of burst damage. I can make even the most well fortified guardian stand in astonishment of his sudden and swift destruction. I can do this every 24 seconds.

That’s not all though; Because I’m using Signet of Malice every 12 seconds I also have the availability of several runes which offer very good bonus effects for using a heal ability. Runes of Centaur gives me and those around me Swiftness for 13 seconds, or indefinitely. Runes of the Adventurer would give me another stack of might for 26 seconds, long enough that I could sustain 2 stacks of it on top of the 5 I already get from just popping Signet of Malice. Runes of Lyssa gives me a random boon every time I heal for 13 seconds and allows me to make Basilisk venom really ridiculous by giving me every single boon in the game whenever I use it. Rune of Vampirism bulks up my heal and adds a bit of damage by giving me a 975 health drain on my next attack.

By the way, 3 signets restoring 2 initiative every 24 seconds is another .25 initiative per second, so my total initiative regeneration is at 1.3 initiative per second. Most of my initiative goes into timing flanking strike, so not only am I wtf-murdering someone every 24 seconds while still maintaining a healthy steady damage increase from Signet of Malice, I’m also evading pretty much the majority of what is thrown at me between Flanking Strike, and Acrobatics/SignetofAgility/Dodging. This is great whether I’m in PVP or PVE.

Signets are not useless. So much so that I really didn’t even want to share this because of how much more it can add to the performance of backstab builds which are already grossly overpowered without my help. I can only hope that the developers nerf that one day instead of taking another swipe at my S/D build.

I use signet of shadows for everything regardless. I cannot stand running around without it. 25% increase is the norm for me now.

Other traits are shadow refuge and usually a venom

Doomdesire.9365:

I use signet of shadows for everything regardless. I cannot stand running around without it. 25% increase is the norm for me now.

Other traits are shadow refuge and usually a venom

Might want to try to wean yourself off of it, doesn’t really sound like you’re getting the most out of it. Maybe try some swiftness-heavy builds so SoS starts to feel slow to you. It won’t really matter for most situations, but in a pinch it can be nice to swap your convenience utility for something that gives extra oomph in combat.

Okamakiri.8746:

Recently someone posted a link to a very effective S/P build (can’t find the thread now… it’s been buried in hundreds of worthless threads) that relies on initiative regen from crits trait and trait that gives 2 initiative on signet usage. With reduced signet cooldown trait, healing from Signet of Malice and evasion from PW, the author was claiming that he was able to keep up PW spam for nearly a minute while putting out ridiculous damage and solo tanking most of the mobs in the dungeon runs.

I have tested this build in solo PVE (not dungeons yet) and can confirm that it does indeed work, though it’s a bit boring. Don’t judge people and jump to conclusions until you have all the facts.

Hahaha, that was me.
Signets are amazing if used properly but when you don’t trait for them they’re not very effective. But you can’t solo most dungeon mobs unless its a 1v1 fight or unless you group them together so PW hit multiples.

Have to agree with op. I rarely use any signets in dungeons as they bring no utility to the team, what so ever. 25% extra movement speed is great for some parts of the dungeon, but I only use it for those parts and in PvE, sPvP and WvW.

Area stealth, blind (lots of combo fields), projectile reflecting and so on is much more usefull in dungeons. Most of the thieves that uses all signets in dungeons are the one dying in every encounter.

Ye every 24 seconds AOE blind is sooo superior to a every 3 seconds AOE blind.Dude just…sigh
moving on..

@Warkupo Poping 4 singets ,All your utility skills and your heal for a a burst , for a 20 stacks of might for a duration of 6 seconds its Only ridiculous.(and funny because it takes around 2 seconds to only activate all of your signets whit heal)20 stacks of might its what ?a 400 boost for every hit ?and you trade all your utility skills for it , you can’t be serious man.And even if it was that much of a power increase ,which is not , you still bring no utility to the team or yourself.
From all of your options you could go for , you chose the least survivable build , whit the least utility , and not even the best DPS option .

I was going to write something here about my setup in dungeons, but instead of that I’m just going to point something out.
NightyNight, punctuation marks are placed directly after the last word in a sentence and not against the first word of the next sentence. I don’t want to lecture about it, but after reading several of your texts my head actually hurts. It’s not like you do it occasionally, you do it every time … This has nothing to do with English grammar since all languages uses the same rules for punctuation.

I’m off now, cheerio

u know what’s funny about this topic? An average thief with (benefit of the doubt) average skills, using average utilities is feeling top sht because he’s surviving in some dungeons and feels like he carries the whole party. The spec you’re running with may work for you and your playstyle but please, don’t judge other playstyles like you know everything (because you clearly don’t).