Guild Wars 2

Nothing the new patch did affected pve and thief does OK as a pve class anyway, though not as fast at killing as warrior and not quite as good at looting as guardian.

However, thief is getting weaker and weaker for pvp/wvw. Even before Oct 15, the possible GOOD builds for pvp were mostly limited to s/d with sb…and maybe a niche d/p every so often. But none of thief’s weapon sets beats every class, and now the s/d and s/p have been nerfed to the point of being ineffective vs the classes they worked best against (guardian, ele)…so all we really have left are stealth-based builds or simply running away. In PvP, having to run away is a total waste of time. In WvW, it’s just depressing not to be able to beat someone no matter how hard you try.

PvP: S/D, now nerfed again, so you can’t kill good eles or guards at all (because you can’t debuff them fast enough). Warriors have been very tough/nearly impossible to beat since they got such OP healing and damage reduction that negates ALL ranged damage (you can hit them forever and never notch them down at all) and most of melee damage. Now they get to keep their boons too, so they are even more OP vs thief. Ranger got a hackjob skill against thief now. Necro’s been annoying ever since they learned how to spam fear and dhuumfire and so on to push massive amounts of condi damage to down thief in seconds. Mesmer has always been the anti-thief with phantasms. Engineer…well not sure, but they bunker very well.

WvW: Same problem, except you can run away without really costing anything.

d/p is only effective if you can actually blind the enemy, they stay within the blind field, and they don’t attack fast enough to be not blinded for some of the strikes.

What’s the solution? We need more damage.

L2P. Thieves are fine.

I think the backstab damage is high enough at this point and an increase will probaly in the end result in a bigger nerf. However, if you see warrior’s that have several traits of damage increase by 10% for specific and we only have 5% on dagger dmg, shortbow dmg and dual skills dmg and 5% extra damage for hitting from the side, which is most of the times useles in PvE. We don’t even have a damage increase trait for sword. This looks to me imbalanced, since warrior have greater armor and greater health without any traits, while thiefs have to spec for stealth or evasion with traits

Besides, I think our traits could be improved in another way to increase our survive ability a bit. There are definitely some good traits, but some traits are just totally useless or way too situational.
Afterall I think that the thieves are not that bad too play, but it just seems kinda weird to me.

MatthijsB.4731:

I think the backstab damage is high enough at this point and an increase will probaly in the end result in a bigger nerf. However, if you see warrior’s that have several traits of damage increase by 10% for specific and we only have 5% on dagger dmg, shortbow dmg and dual skills dmg and 5% extra damage for hitting from the side, which is most of the times useles in PvE. We don’t even have a damage increase trait for sword. This looks to me imbalanced, since warrior have greater armor and greater health without any traits, while thiefs have to spec for stealth or evasion with traits

Besides, I think our traits could be improved in another way to increase our survive ability a bit. There are definitely some good traits, but some traits are just totally useless or way too situational.
Afterall I think that the thieves are not that bad too play, but it just seems kinda weird to me.

Increase survive ability ?

Are you drunk …

I’m never visiting the thief forums again.

Stop using a Dagger in Zergs
Learn to gear for Zergs
Stop using a Sbow in Zergs
Malice is your friend followed up with Dagger Storm on Zergs
Use teleporting abilities to go in and out of Zergs
Stop using Zerker gear for Zergs

Thieves are THE best AoE’er in the game. If you can’t see that then you should probably find another class to play.

Thieves are great…if you don’t want to kill anything, ever. They don’t do any DAMAGE without zerks. Anything without zerk = can’t kill anyone. All of the viable thief builds are zerk. None of the viable thief builds can beat guardians or warriors or good mesmers or fearspam necros.

http://goo.gl/dq87Gh
With this non zerker build you can kill guardians, warriors and even fear necros
Of course it’s not that easy , permastealth can be more effective

Crawford.4135:

Stop using a Dagger in Zergs
Learn to gear for Zergs
Stop using a Sbow in Zergs
Malice is your friend followed up with Dagger Storm on Zergs
Use teleporting abilities to go in and out of Zergs
Stop using Zerker gear for Zergs

Thieves are THE best AoE’er in the game. If you can’t see that then you should probably find another class to play.

It’s still, IMO, one of the worst class in zergs. You’re too squishy to be able to deal good damage and survive. You have practically no stabo outside daggerstorm, very slow condition cure. Horrible AoE damage compared to ELEs and NECROS. And don’t get me started about having to push through chokes with ACs…

The only thing I like when zerging with my thief are those glorious 8 seconds of daggerstorm. Then I’m dead/useless. It’s why the top guilds don’t run more than 1-2 thieves when they raid.

Doomdesire.9365:

Crawford.4135:

Stop using a Dagger in Zergs
Learn to gear for Zergs
Stop using a Sbow in Zergs
Malice is your friend followed up with Dagger Storm on Zergs
Use teleporting abilities to go in and out of Zergs
Stop using Zerker gear for Zergs

Thieves are THE best AoE’er in the game. If you can’t see that then you should probably find another class to play.

It’s still, IMO, one of the worst class in zergs. You’re too squishy to be able to deal good damage and survive. You have practically no stabo outside daggerstorm, very slow condition cure. Horrible AoE damage compared to ELEs and NECROS. And don’t get me started about having to push through chokes with ACs…

The only thing I like when zerging with my thief are those glorious 8 seconds of daggerstorm. Then I’m dead/useless. It’s why the top guilds don’t run more than 1-2 thieves when they raid.

Don’t use sig of malice in zergs, bring a lyssa build w/ venom so you have a few seconds of stab every 40 seconds or so, stick to SB/SD and bring scorpion wire on your bar and viola, you’re useful in a zerg (use withdraw as your heal, it’s almost essential in zerg content if your access to stability is low)

none of u just noticed how is it impossible to play thief in wvw since league start cause of insane lag? i cant land a cnd or avoid to be melted cause of healing skill/stubreak delay (or just wont work at all).
all i can see is that bunker classes/spec have a much easier life…
i really cant play thief anymore in wvw.. lag just kills me in seconds… on my warrior on the other hand seems much easier and that sucks since i love thief playstyle

Nephar.3746:

none of u just noticed how is it impossible to play thief in wvw since league start cause of insane lag? i cant land a cnd or avoid to be melted cause of healing skill/stubreak delay (or just wont work at all).
all i can see is that bunker classes/spec have a much easier life…
i really cant play thief anymore in wvw.. lag just kills me in seconds… on my warrior on the other hand seems much easier and that sucks since i love thief playstyle

This ^^

Thieves rely so much on timing (getting in position for backstabs or whatnot) any sort of skill lag becomes a deal breaker with that class.

Newjack.8124:

L2P. Thieves are fine.

I take it you primarily play another class and got pwned. Unfortunately, thieves are good at killing less experienced players.

The reality is that at this point, a thief is really only good in one area: roaming in WvW. That again assumes the thief finds plays of lower quality than them.

Thief doesn’t roam well because they can’t kill any good players of other classes anymore.

thieves have amazing survivability if u spec for it in traits most likely leading to perma stealth i do think they need to change up some of the traits in deadly arts!

Thieves are still viable. It just takes ALOT more skill at a high level than other classes. People don’t realize this.

I would like to know same thing mate… Thiefs are just too bad at sPvP/WvW… sad but true

Thieves. Not meant for easymode play. Try harder or whine to people who care about your problems. Thank you.

Thieves are broken in PvP? Tell that to the 5+ thieves I see in SPvP matches every day.

The thief if bush can be used to any class and overcoat does what other classes cannot do. The thief is incredibly good, I have 3 classes raised to the lvl 80, warrior magician and thief. With that more I amuse myself, I kill and troleo is without any the thief doubts.

Its more that thieves are very hard to play other than them being weak

I haven’t lost to a thief 1v1 on warrior. I retired my thief to play warrior cause they are so much stronger and I don’t have to try as hard. It’s just easy mode.

thieves are not bad, they are just not faceroll like warriors

SallyStitches.4096:

Thieves are broken in PvP? Tell that to the 5+ thieves I see in SPvP matches every day.

As I said earlier, thieves are good for killing inexperienced players. You see a lot of that in sPvP. Typically people who do sPvP are either glory farming or trying new classes/builds. A thief is good at killing them.

The thief is viable in WvW, and PvP. They are just alot harder than most classes to play successfully, in WvW/PvP. SB 2 is the best blast finisher in the game; thanks to stealth and burst they can easily go behind enemy lines and cap sentries, camps and get in a kill now and then.
If you don’t believe they can be effective, just look at any of the more experienced thiefs’ channels on youtube or twitch.
Here’s a video for your pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKzHTFfi3mk
The warrior and guardian, as always, is the backbone of a successful zerg. But a thief has a given place there, as well as in roaming or whatever is deemed neccesary. Thiefs bring a seldom seen mobility and versality to the battlefield that is WvW.
But if mashing buttons is your thing, don’t whine about thiefs being kittenty and instead go play a warrior.

The OP wants a weapon setup which can kill every class without any problem… maybe ignore him for asking such things?

What I want…is for thief to have effective counters for every possible build, just like all other professions have counters for everything thief can do.

Warrior tankhealstunimmunetocondioutrunseverything is basically the perfect never-beat-me thing right now and no thief build can take it down. Necro feardhuumspamfire noskill condiburst is basically a kill-all-thieves build that takes down every single thief build within 5 seconds (unless they miss a few casts, in which case it takes 10-15 seconds).

We have NO counters to those. We can’t beat them. The few tools we had to try to use against them have been taken away (damage, meaningful boon stealing).

I don’t see thieves broken in pvp or wvw in the least. Also, I don’t find that many counters against our skills. I really don’t have major problems vs warriors but I don’t rely on the cookie cutter d/p build.

Nerfed Backstab, Nerfed Death Blossom condi stacking build @ where it used to be (when it was viable), nerfed sword 3, P/P is trash /end rant

style.6173:

Newjack.8124:

L2P. Thieves are fine.

I take it you primarily play another class and got pwned. Unfortunately, thieves are good at killing less experienced players.

The reality is that at this point, a thief is really only good in one area: roaming in WvW. That again assumes the thief finds plays of lower quality than them.

Relax friend. I main a thief and always will. OP is clearly trolling here. First of all thief builds are fine right now for WvW. Could they be better? Sure. Could they be worse. Definitely.

You have to know your role in WvW if you are in a zerg. I run 10/30/0/0/30 with full zerker and beryl orbs on my gear. Stick with your shortbow because you crit people for a good 1.5-3k and spam clusterbomb and noxious gas. AoE poison is very helpful and clusterbomb does good damage. You want to stay on the outskirts of the battle. If you just run into the fight of course you are going to get dominated, because the thief isn’t mean to do that in a zerg vs zerg scenario.

The only time I’m in the middle of a fight is when I drop black powder on someone downed to get a quick stomp then I run out again.

Even if you aren’t running the above mentioned build, your role is still the same. You DPS and stay on the edge of the fight. Or you jump in and right back out. It’s all about knowing the role of your class.

As for roaming? I have no problem roaming and “dueling” other classes. Run some tPvP and learn the many different builds the thief has right now so you know what works best against other builds and classes. The thief guide sticky on the main page is your best friend.

Running 10/30/0/0/30 I only really have trouble with other mesmers and the occasional necro. Yes, some players aren’t that great at roaming and they are easy to stomp. But I have also gotten into some really good fights with other players, and won. So if you are having trouble regularly winning fights, then either your build is whack, or you just aren’t a good player.

As for OP, if you are having problems fighting warriors and guardians, then you might want to play a different class, because the thief is clearly not for you.

Meridian.8730:

What I want…is for thief to have effective counters for every possible build, just like all other professions have counters for everything thief can do.

Warrior tankhealstunimmunetocondioutrunseverything is basically the perfect never-beat-me thing right now and no thief build can take it down. Necro feardhuumspamfire noskill condiburst is basically a kill-all-thieves build that takes down every single thief build within 5 seconds (unless they miss a few casts, in which case it takes 10-15 seconds).

We have NO counters to those. We can’t beat them. The few tools we had to try to use against them have been taken away (damage, meaningful boon stealing).

Open your eyes dude. We have counters.

http://intothemists.com/guides/781-interrupt_burster

I beat both of those above mentioned builds with that thief build. It isn’t hard you just have to have the right timing.

Thief is not easy to play well. Go play something else.

Thief…can’t kill most bunkers at all. Our bunker busting skill LS got nerfed into worthlessness. Yay anet, you know how to destroy a class like a bunch of pros.

What I don’t understand is why they ever gave us LS in the FIRST PLACE if they were just going to make it worthless…

Newjack.8124:

style.6173:

Newjack.8124:

L2P. Thieves are fine.

I take it you primarily play another class and got pwned. Unfortunately, thieves are good at killing less experienced players.

The reality is that at this point, a thief is really only good in one area: roaming in WvW. That again assumes the thief finds plays of lower quality than them.

Relax friend. I main a thief and always will. OP is clearly trolling here. First of all thief builds are fine right now for WvW. Could they be better? Sure. Could they be worse. Definitely.

-snip-

I’d just like to point out Swinks’ signature, you’re not talking to an inexperienced Thief. :P

I am an elementalist and I do not approve this message. Also, consider the meta. Thieves would do better in a power meta.

Meridian.8730:

Nothing the new patch did affected pve and thief does OK as a pve class anyway, though not as fast at killing as warrior and not quite as good at looting as guardian.

However, thief is getting weaker and weaker for pvp/wvw. Even before Oct 15, the possible GOOD builds for pvp were mostly limited to s/d with sb…and maybe a niche d/p every so often. But none of thief’s weapon sets beats every class, and now the s/d and s/p have been nerfed to the point of being ineffective vs the classes they worked best against (guardian, ele)…so all we really have left are stealth-based builds or simply running away. In PvP, having to run away is a total waste of time. In WvW, it’s just depressing not to be able to beat someone no matter how hard you try.

PvP: S/D, now nerfed again, so you can’t kill good eles or guards at all (because you can’t debuff them fast enough). Warriors have been very tough/nearly impossible to beat since they got such OP healing and damage reduction that negates ALL ranged damage (you can hit them forever and never notch them down at all) and most of melee damage. Now they get to keep their boons too, so they are even more OP vs thief. Ranger got a hackjob skill against thief now. Necro’s been annoying ever since they learned how to spam fear and dhuumfire and so on to push massive amounts of condi damage to down thief in seconds. Mesmer has always been the anti-thief with phantasms. Engineer…well not sure, but they bunker very well.

WvW: Same problem, except you can run away without really costing anything.

d/p is only effective if you can actually blind the enemy, they stay within the blind field, and they don’t attack fast enough to be not blinded for some of the strikes.

What’s the solution? We need more damage.

Thieves are perfectly viable in WvW though i will say not all builds are even remotely equal.

Meridian.8730:

What I don’t understand is why they ever gave us LS in the FIRST PLACE if they were just going to make it worthless…

It was worthless in the first place, then it was viable, now it’s worthless again. 1 boon is not enough at the rate they are pumped out.

Our job is to backcap and apparently that’s it. We are viable in WvW… because it’s a bunch of scrubs that have no clue.

The only issue I’m having in wvw/pvp is the ridiculous skill lag since the last patch. I know all classes are impacted, but playing a thief relying on evades and positioning is nearly impossible now.

Incurafy.6329:

Newjack.8124:

style.6173:

Newjack.8124:

L2P. Thieves are fine.

I take it you primarily play another class and got pwned. Unfortunately, thieves are good at killing less experienced players.

The reality is that at this point, a thief is really only good in one area: roaming in WvW. That again assumes the thief finds plays of lower quality than them.

Relax friend. I main a thief and always will. OP is clearly trolling here. First of all thief builds are fine right now for WvW. Could they be better? Sure. Could they be worse. Definitely.

-snip-

I’d just like to point out Swinks’ signature, you’re not talking to an inexperienced Thief. :P

I didn’t quote Swinks?

Meridian.8730:

Thief…can’t kill most bunkers at all. Our bunker busting skill LS got nerfed into worthlessness. Yay anet, you know how to destroy a class like a bunch of pros.

Bunkers can’t kill most thieves either. I do fine as a roamer, but I don’t see killing every opponent as my god give right either.

Newjack.8124:

Incurafy.6329:

Newjack.8124:

style.6173:

Newjack.8124:

L2P. Thieves are fine.

I take it you primarily play another class and got pwned. Unfortunately, thieves are good at killing less experienced players.

The reality is that at this point, a thief is really only good in one area: roaming in WvW. That again assumes the thief finds plays of lower quality than them.

Relax friend. I main a thief and always will. OP is clearly trolling here. First of all thief builds are fine right now for WvW. Could they be better? Sure. Could they be worse. Definitely.

-snip-

I’d just like to point out Swinks’ signature, you’re not talking to an inexperienced Thief. :P

I didn’t quote Swinks?

Oops, honest mistake, I don’t know how I read that as Swinsk, lol.

The only issue I’m having in wvw/pvp is the ridiculous skill lag since the last patch.

Same. I rely on instants to survive (mostly Berserker P/P), so the skill-lag is an extreme liability. If I Shadow Step behind 30+, and can’t stay mobile, then I’m… in a bad situation! I learned that quickly on Day 1 of the season (Blackgate). :-)

Thief…can’t kill most bunkers at all.

I don’t have any problems (in WvW) against (i.e.., solo) bunker Warriors, Guardians, or Necros, unless I’m engaged after a very recent fight (no CDs, half health, etc.). Every other profession burns so quickly that I won’t even consider their bunker-builds.

Running 10/30/0/0/30 I only really have trouble with other mesmers and the occasional necro.

I run that for my P/P, and oddly enough, the only enduring fights I’ve encountered have also come from (certain) Mesmers!

It’s still, IMO, one of the worst class in zergs. You’re too squishy to be able to deal good damage and survive.

Hmm? P/P thief is amazingly fun (and effective) in massive fights. With our utilities (no stealth!), we have incredible mobility and utility. Throw in being fully exotic and ascended (mostly Berserker), and you’ll burn through targets in a zerg — just don’t try “hiding” in your own group.

The only thing I like when zerging with my thief are those glorious 8 seconds of daggerstorm.

It’s not that worthwhile. If another thief tries to Dagger Storm me (I’m P/P, it would be effective), Bountiful Theft strips the stability, and Sleight of Hand interrupts the channel. Said thief then soon becomes downed. Not only that, but in large fights, Necros can (and will) easily boon-corrupt your stability into fear — unless they changed that.

I’ve been running 10/30/0/0/30 for the last two months or so and I’ve switched to trying out P/P with this trait spec and it’s extremely effective. With proper positioning and knowledge of combo fields, P/P is very solid in large group fights.

I just wish I could actually -play- as the lag is so bad I’m not even bothering to log on. I wait in que, play for 3 minutes through unbearable lag, DC, and then have to wait again.
Which is all quite a shame since I actually enjoy playing thief and want to play more often.
Smite it is >:o

Doomdesire.9365:

Crawford.4135:

Stop using a Dagger in Zergs
Learn to gear for Zergs
Stop using a Sbow in Zergs
Malice is your friend followed up with Dagger Storm on Zergs
Use teleporting abilities to go in and out of Zergs
Stop using Zerker gear for Zergs

Thieves are THE best AoE’er in the game. If you can’t see that then you should probably find another class to play.

It’s still, IMO, one of the worst class in zergs. You’re too squishy to be able to deal good damage and survive. You have practically no stabo outside daggerstorm, very slow condition cure. Horrible AoE damage compared to ELEs and NECROS. And don’t get me started about having to push through chokes with ACs…

The only thing I like when zerging with my thief are those glorious 8 seconds of daggerstorm. Then I’m dead/useless. It’s why the top guilds don’t run more than 1-2 thieves when they raid.

dude, thief is one of the best job for zerg v zerg. you are pretty much invincible with dagger storm even if your hp do drop or get boon stripped and CC’ed or w/e. just port out when it reaches 50%…

im almost always the 1st one who jump in zerg when being attack at SMC. stealth – jump in – dagger storm – port out – profit?
i don’t even use malice plus im zerker, and i rarely die except when lag.

thief’s ability of getting out of combat is incredible, i’ve been ran over by a huge zerg train.
everyone around me dead in seconds( was trying to back bust the zerg with a small group), i shadowsteped at the last second to the side with 6 condi and 50% hp, then stealth, like nothing happened.

I don’t have any problems playing my thief in a zerg. If you spec full perma stealth roamer, then you may not, but thats your choice.

Zerging with thief IMO is not the issue…it’s 1v1 roaming vs healtankstun Warriors that absorb 90% of your damage from melee range and stun you the rest of the time, and feardhuumcondispam Necros that melt you in 3-5 seconds with condition spams you can’t remove fast enough.

Sanduskel.1850:

Meridian.8730:

Thief…can’t kill most bunkers at all. Our bunker busting skill LS got nerfed into worthlessness. Yay anet, you know how to destroy a class like a bunch of pros.

Bunkers can’t kill most thieves either. I do fine as a roamer, but I don’t see killing every opponent as my god give right either.

Your comparison doesn’t hold water, since that’s not the intention behind bunker design. What bunkers do is hold a point, and they excel at that.

Thieves however, were designed to kill things – Poor or nonexistent access to defensive boons (except vigor), no invuln skills, no psuedo-invuln skills, no blocks, low HP, dodgy/teleporty combat style with big burst… it is kind of strange when they can’t threaten a bunker. Seeing as LS was specifically changed to deal with boon bunkers, and was doing so admirably, it’s kind of strange for them to decide boon bunkers should have free range once again.

dude, thief is one of the best job for zerg v zerg. you are pretty much invincible with dagger storm even if your hp do drop or get boon stripped and CC’ed or w/e. just port out when it reaches 50%…

My troll shot rifle warrior really loves thieves who think that spinning makes them invulnerable…

Thieves however, were designed to kill things – Poor or nonexistent access to defensive boons (except vigor), no invuln skills, no psuedo-invuln skills, no blocks, low HP, dodgy/teleporty combat style with big burst… it is kind of strange when they can’t threaten a bunker. Seeing as LS was specifically changed to deal with boon bunkers, and was doing so admirably, it’s kind of strange for them to decide boon bunkers should have free range once again.

This is really just a general problem of Bunker Wars 2. Bunker is basically always stronger than most damage builds. Even then, thief is still the most viable tpvp glass cannon. Mesmer is okish too, as shown by Helseth who did quite well during the King of Mists tourny.

Master of Timespace.2548:

This is really just a general problem of Bunker Wars 2. Bunker is basically always stronger than most damage builds. Even then, thief is still the most viable tpvp glass cannon. Mesmer is okish too, as shown by Helseth who did quite well during the King of Mists tourny.

I’m not arguing thief TPvP viability, I’m just pointing out the issue with reducing LS to 1 boon steal.

Anet saw boon bunkers had no counter, so they introduced one. The counter was fairly well designed for that intent (it did a good job limiting boon bunkers, but not completely shutting them down).

Then they judged that stealing 2 boons was too much for some reason (probably because of the ability to rapidly strip boons from classes that couldn’t generate a ton of boons constantly like a boon bunker could) – instead of trying to find a good middle ground that kept the skills original intention (Soft counter to boon bunkers), without overly penalized other classes that made use of a smaller range of boons, they kicked it back to where it was when boon bunkers were a problem, reintroducing the original problem.

I don’t see how they failed to predict that, I’m not a game developer and I called this back when they posted the preview where they stated they were thinking about reducing LS back to 1 boon steal.

So yesterday I was on my Mesmer, scouting around to the northeast of Bay when I spotted a thief near the western edge of the ruins. He was over 1200 range from me because my auto attack didn’t hit him. Given that he had friendlies nearby, I chose not to engage and started moving back toward the NE bay gate. As I began moving, but before I could hit my look behind key, I saw the vulnerability icon appear, so I hit Decoy & prepared to Blink. Before I could activate the second skill I found myself down (still in stealth) and watched a thief running past me auto attacking. Eventually he came back & stomped.

Afterward I checked the combat log (pitiful as it is) to see what happened. This is what I found:
First attack: 17,252 Backstab
Second attack: 12,141 Heartseeker.

Given the range at the start of the encounter, I figure he must have used Infiltrator’s Arrow to close the gap, followed by a stealth ability, Steal, then dagger 1 and 2 in quick succession.

I have no sympathy for anybody who thinks that Thieves are not viable in WvW.