Guild Wars 2

Hello, my name is Pawstruck and I’m incredibly unsatisfied with the design of the Theif class. Before you rage, spam “L2p, theives OP noob,” or any of that, take a read through ALL (yes, ALL) of the text in this post, and decide for yourself what an intelligent response would be. I would like to hear from my fellow thieves and possibly get some Anet feedback on these issues. Please note that the following are MY IMPRESSIONS from playing the game, feel free to disagree but please do not flame/troll. 4chan forums are <—————— that way.

I started a thief because I wanted to be a stealthy assassin. A FKING NINJA. I saw beta footage of thieves dancing around their targets, shadowstepping all over the place, and generally dealing (wait for it…) TONS OF DAMAGE. After 33 levels, 20% world completion, and hours of PVP with my thief, I can honestly say that I was mislead.

When Stealth Isn’t Stealthy
I cannot express to you how much it disappointed me to realize that stealthing was so inefficient in this game. Cloak and Dagger is impossible to hit in PVP due to the incredibly mobile nature of EVERY CLASS compared to the thief. It’s not a skill you can use in a pinch or… well… ever, really. It costs a ton of initiative (even if you miss!!!) and is just really clunky in general. Your healing skill that stealths you has a long cast time and can be interrupted. Shadow Refuge rarely seems to work correctly, and you get popped out of it for doing anything but just standing there.

The biggest problem with all this is that I don’t FEEL stealthy. I feel like I can go invulnerable for 3 seconds at a time on occasion. No, I didn’t play a rogue in WoW; I played a feral druid. At first I thought the in-and-out stealth system of GW2 looked promising, but after experiencing it for myself I can honestly say it feels awkward, clunky, and terrible.

An aside: I was told by one friend on the opposite PVP team that stealthing does not make you invisible in PVP, but rather camouflages you. He claimed that he could see me in stealth. I have yet to experience this phenomenon versus other thieves, but if it’s true I will definitely quit the class.

Possible solutions:
-Create a utility skill that simply and instantly stealths you for a moderate period of time (5+sec).
-Remove the cast time from the heal skill.
-Change Cloak and Dagger to cloak you whether or not the skill hits.

Gimme Less Gimmick
Heartseeker spam was stupid. And guess what? It got nerfed. Rightly. And guess what other thieves are doing now? Coming up with other stupid, spammy builds designed to 100-0 people in three seconds (Pistol Whip spam anyone?). People will complain, and that will get nerfed too. RIGHTLY.

There is no doubt that thieves should be bursty. LOTS of classes are bursty (why are Guardians impossible to kill yet can pretty much global me?). But piling all your 60 second utility skills on top of each other and then spamming a single skill until you’re out of Initiative is NOT ideal. It’s the result of poor design.

See, there are no combo points here. Fine. There’s no “rotation.” …Slightly less fine, but workable. But the reason people are piling all their cooldowns into one skill is that half the weapon skills are underwhelming. You won’t get “combo’d” by a theif because Flanking Strike is worthless and he’d rather use auto-attacks. THAT IS NOT OKAY.

TLDR: Spamming moves is the result of poor design with regard to thief weapon skills, and we will continue the cat-and-mouse game of “how many of Skill X can I spam when I pop Haste” until a real re-work occurs.

Possible Solutions:
-Take a look at some of the more worthless Theif skills. Then buff them.
-Change Haste.

The Glass Cannon That Didn’t Fire
Without the above “blow everything and spam skill X” strategy, thieves have absolutely nothing going for them. I’ve tried every conceivable build to no avail. I’ve tried stacking survivability and utility skills… and did absolutely no damage. I’ve tried being evasive and Traiting into Acrobatics and such… and did no damage, AND died in 2 seconds.

From my experience (and I could be missing something here), the thief is just not survivable enough. This largely results from the stealth problem listed above. “But Paw, mesmers and elementalists are super squishy too!” Right… but squishiness =/= survivability. While mesmer clones are usually easy to distinguish, mesmers have enough utility skills (slows, stuns, confusion stacks, etc.) to keep themselves alive while still doing silly damage. Also, ever faced a water/earth elementalist? They can quite literally tank 3 or 4 people for a minute or more with their shields, mist form, heals, and crowd control.

What’s missing from our kit? A real way to INSTANTLY dodge damage. Even during Death Lotus, for example, the thief will catch damage from AoE, those fking spin moves everyone and their mother has, and condition damage… and that’s IF the target stands perfectly still so you can keep using Death Lotus and actually HIT them.

TLDR: Our utility survival skills, evasion and stealth, aren’t effective enough.

Possible solutions:
-Fix Flanking Strike/HSS/Death Lotus/etc. to actually STICK ON your target so that they can be used properly as both damage and survival tools.
-Give stealth an AoE damage reduction. I’m sick of casting Shadow refuge only to have ele’s/rangers/engineers pelt the relatively small circle with area damage and kill me.

Nobody Poisoned the Water Hole
All I can say about poisons is that they don’t “feel” right. A poison that lasts for 2 weapon strikes is just… lame. Most of them aren’t that powerful, and have extremely long cooldowns. I would rather the poisons actually be WEAKER and last longer (10+ charges). I won’t even mention the abomination that is Basalisk Venom.

TLDR: Buff poisons.kitten

*
Conclusion
*
Guys, look: These are my opinions and impressions after having played my thief for a decent amount of time. I’m not an expert, I’m not a gladiator, and I’m not even level 80. I just came here to talk about how the class feels to me, what my expectations were for a thief-rouge-assassin-ninja-type class, and why those expectations were decimated as I advanced in level and tried PVP. Feel free to disagree, but please know that if you flame or spam one-liners like “lol he thinks thieves are UP what a scrub L2P noob” I’m just going to report you, ignore you, and move on with the thread. I would like this to turn into a good discussion (I’m even open to an advice thread)… But if it doesn’t, I’ll just quit my thief and quietly move on.

I love my thief

wow, i can honestly say your either a poor player, the thief in this game is not for you, or both.

i played a rogue in wow (just cuz you played feral druid its practicallyt eh same concept) and the thief is so much more thief like then the rogue in wow.

the stealth in this game is beautifully done imo, it doesnt feel “clunky” at all to me, and i use a stealth based build to abuse it to great effect.

our stealth heal has a cast time, so? its our most powerful heal, and allows us to stealth. the cast time is the risk factor in using it, if you dont want risk vs reward, the entire initiative system isnt fo ryou even.

i have not experienced the problems with shadow refuge that you have, tho if you attack it takes you out of stealth.

I hear many people say they have trouble landing CnD, but honestly ive been practicing it long enough that i rarely miss with it, and it only costs me 4 initiative if i lands (again, this is not wow, you dont get refunded for missed attacks, its risk vs reward and it promotes SKILL and forward thinking)

thief is flat out more mobile then any other class, can dodge more, can escape/move faster then practically anyone with shortbow.

you dont understand the nature of thieves if you claim we just spam. any weapon set has one main damage move, this is how the thief is designed, the rest if for utility, this results in us have a deeper back of utiltiy then other classes. it just so happens that when we get to the “kill it now” phase we use the one ability. the issue is the nature of 8v8 pvp (when it was intended for 5v5) and wvwvw all very zergy so you can ride the zerg train and just focus on dpsing down someone to the exclusion of your utility skills.

your not invincible when you stealth, condition damage still hits you, aoe moves hit you, non targeted moves can still hit you.

5+ seconds stealth? thats just OP, thieves can already escape almost any situation they want.

the cast time on the heal skill is again, risk vs reward, sorry you want to dumb down the class further

again CnD is risk vs reward, why you need everything handed to you and not rely on your skill to land your hits and time your casts?

what worthless thief skills? they all serve a specific purpose and many are very useful in fact. flanking strike is about the only one i think could use changing (needs a damage buff and better tracking imo)

thieves survivability is NOT in reducing damage taken, but in avoiding it. i made a spec i use involving mobility and stealth and blind. I have great mobility, and i have 1v2 and survived group fights to the last man more then once. and my damage while maybe not 3 second kill one trick ponies (they suck after the Cd’s are used) its damage is enough that someone isnt gonna stand there and tank/heal thru it.

also many people think mesmer is OP atm, i reserve judgment but thats what people say, so bad class to compare.

death lotus has a pretty wide hit box, you dont have to be next to them to hit them with it. also USE YOUR DODGE, it avoids damage while your performing it, my spec has 3 dodges and access to death blossom, coupled with blind and stealth i rarely get hit.

i agree with flanking strikes pathing as its a bit wonky, but the fact you name thinks like HS and death blossom shows how little you have tried to learn or how you refuse to learn the way these skills work.

the shadow refuge comment, thats smart play by them, its not a “haha you cant do anything to me now”

i would like a internal cd of sorts so i dont unload all my poison charges on the same target in 2 seconds, since they dont seem to stack in intensity or anything, but other then that with the nature of this game the poisons are actually very useful.

you can ignore me all you want, but fact is this class is MORE like a ninja/thief then any other mmo ive played (and ive played quite a few), hell the rogue in wow is DISGRACEFUL in terms of rogue definition, specially right now.

your entire post is you whining wanting skills to be more braindead and remove the risk vs reward for using them. you want a easier game, and might i say, wow is def easier.

metaphorm.6904:

so quit. why should any of us care that you don’t like the class? play something else. try different classes until you find one you like. this post is just a juvenile whine thread that accomplishes nothing.

It’s not whining if he’s saying why he thinks what he thinks.

I disagree with most of the OP with the exception of poisons (and traps). I like the way that stealth gives an edge instead of defining the class. I don’t see gimmicks but I do see ways that weapon skills could be improved (hint: traps and venoms) and I hate the idea of glass cannon. There are multiple ways with every build that give thieves survival though I do think that there is an excessive focus on evasion and it would have been nice to see something more clever.

Back to poisons and traps. That’s thievery to me and it’s pretty limited because it’s not pushed in the weapon attacks. Even if I fill my 7-0 with traps and venoms, most of them aren’t all that impressive in the first place. I think some more work needs to be done their.

Though thief is a very broad designation, I think it’s more appropriate to think of this as assassin. The ‘cleverness’ of out of combat thievery is lacking.

Nearly everything you stated shows a lack of skill and understanding of your class and broader game mechanics. You should try reading this Thief forum more before posting. I just learned something new a minute ago.

agree about venoms.

Agree about the glass cannon stuff ( i’ve tried many thief builds not revolving around damage, like soldier amulet- perma daze S/D, simply to find that i would obtain more results by simply going with berserker amulet), we’re innately designed to deal damage.
Only that.

Agree about thief overall design. The class is a big gimmick, that really should be redisigned from the start ( don’t worry, it will happen now or then). But people love gimmicky stuff, and that’s why you get people answiring stuff like " i love my thief, you have no clue" and bla bla bla.

Just play something different, the thief will meet better times in the future.

Well, my poison ability (Spider Venom) lasts around 70 seconds (if applied to a single target) and deals 222 dmg (no matter how much toughness the target has) per second. Which is around 15k dmg (only the venom). It recharges every 36 seconds.

The problem with the thief is that you gotta “trait” it in order to that thing be good. So everything is very build dependable.

Mrbig.8019:

agree about venoms.

Agree about the glass cannon stuff ( i’ve tried many thief builds not revolving around damage, like soldier amulet- perma daze S/D, simply to find that i would obtain more results by simply going with berserker amulet), we’re innately designed to deal damage.
Only that.

Agree about thief overall design. The class is a big gimmick, that really should be redisigned from the start ( don’t worry, it will happen now or then). But people love gimmicky stuff, and that’s why you get people answiring stuff like " i love my thief, you have no clue" and bla bla bla.

Just play something different, the thief will meet better times in the future.

ive4 played multiple classes in this game, if you think thieves are gimmicky other classes are gonna make you cry

Honestly after playing most of the other classes, I can hands down say that the thief has way more useful utility skills than any of the other classes that I have played.

Shadow refuge skill is more for PVE/WVW skill than anything else. Think about it, you are completely containing yourself to a circle that you cannot move out of… Against players that’s going to be useless.

D/D thiefs you are right though they do rely on auto-attack because Heartseeker is nerfed now, and blossoming death is a good skill just extremely expensive. After you use 2 blossoming deaths you are going to be auto attacking. I do not whole heatedly agree with us being so reliant on auto-attacking because it takes a lot of fun out of the thief… BUTI understand why they did it, for balance, it just takes some managing of your initiative. I did AC today for the first time and I found that 60-70% of my damage came from auto-attacking while strafing my target as I had either used up initiative fighting multiple adds, or blossoming death to evade getting hit.

There is a Utility skill to make you go instantly stealth, and as a bonus it blinds enemies around you, it’s called blinding powder, personally that utility never leaves my utility bar.

Poison does seem a little weak in this game compared to the other conditions, where bleeds stack, and burning does a lot of damage.

I agree with the L2P comments, you are complaining about sever parts of the game that simply changing your traits and skills you use would fix. Before you come rage "omg i made it to 33 why am i not destorying all the things?!?!’ how about you look at the shadow arts trait tree? 1 second longer stealths and healing and special effects on stealth as well. PLEASE do not come back here crying after you have obviously not done much testing with alternate builds.

Honestly anyone who thinks pistol-whip needs a nerf instantly lose credibility. The only way you can die to that is if you’re practically afk, not moving at all. It’s a very underwhelming skill in PvP and out-damaged by hundred blades in PvE.

I thought I might just put this out there, but for example when I play thief for me stealth is nothing more than condition removal and/or buffs and a way to control aggro, yeah 3 seconds (base) is not much, but when that is all you need for endurance to regen, well that’s all you need (with the trait that returns endurance faster).

For me thief is not about being stealthy, but being slippery and generally always having something in reserve in case something doesn’t go as planned.

In PvE at least, stealth is my three seconds of not getting hit and letting my conditions do the work. I’ve been thinking of switching to a higher crit build to take better advantage of backstab too, just add more insult to injury.

For me thief is not about being stealthy, but being slippery and generally always having something in reserve in case something doesn’t go as planned.

For me as well.

bwillb.2165:

Honestly anyone who thinks pistol-whip needs a nerf instantly lose credibility. The only way you can die to that is if you’re practically afk, not moving at all. It’s a very underwhelming skill in PvP and out-damaged by hundred blades in PvE.

Can you not move while pistolwhipping? It happens at the end of it’s cast, right?

Wolfe.3097:

Mrbig.8019:

agree about venoms.

Agree about the glass cannon stuff ( i’ve tried many thief builds not revolving around damage, like soldier amulet- perma daze S/D, simply to find that i would obtain more results by simply going with berserker amulet), we’re innately designed to deal damage.
Only that.

Agree about thief overall design. The class is a big gimmick, that really should be redisigned from the start ( don’t worry, it will happen now or then). But people love gimmicky stuff, and that’s why you get people answiring stuff like " i love my thief, you have no clue" and bla bla bla.

Just play something different, the thief will meet better times in the future.

ive4 played multiple classes in this game, if you think thieves are gimmicky other classes are gonna make you cry

what should be gimmicky ?
enge swapping multiple kits in order to do damage ?

ele swapping attunements to adapt to a situation ?

necro going in and out from DS to avoid damage, to CC you and destroying you with conditions and AoEs ?

mesmers ( altough OP ) countering and avoiding while timing their illusions ?

guardians chaining through their skills in order to be unbeatable ?

As things stand now, the only gimmicky things in this game are ranger’s shortbow, 100 blades AND THE WHOLE thief profession.

And this comes from a guy with thief as a main, with the thief being his favourite profession.

The fanboysm around this archetype is getting old and ridicolous, really.

Let me be the kinder, gentler response. You don’t like how thief plays. That’s cool, there are 7 other classes, I hope one suits you. I like the idea of engineers, but after playing a thief, I found them kind of clunky. No hard feelings, just not the class for me.

I don’t agree with the first part because one of the things I like about the Thief as a profession is that we don’t necessarily have to be “stealthers” at all. Two builds. One with no stealth use. The other with limited use. And that’s a good thing. The ability to have the versatility. Because other people can and do focus their builds on stealth. And can play such smartly.

The class is generally trying to buck the trend of traveling stealth classes in other games. But thieves do have a fair share of options for getting into and out of stealth as their means to control a fight.

As to the second point: I’m not sure I can agree there. Even with a Sword/Pistol build that has Haste as a utility to be used as needed, I can assure you that my build relies a lot on my Acrobatics tree, how I use dodge, and even Infilitrator’s Strike and my auto attack (positionally) just as much as it does on something like Pistol Whip. It’s one skill, I have the capacity to make it into something very, very bursty if i need to (which isn’t often because the risks of failing in the attack make it a fair cost/benefit analysis before doing so), and there’s way too many other things I’m keeping track of when I attack.

Is my End. full or not? Have I stacked sufficient Might? Am I making sure that I’m flanking my target? What is their HP? Am I at the point when Executioner is kicking in or not? Is my Init. over six? Etc, etc. All these things affect my damage potential and I need to make sure I’m tracking them all, as well as Shadow Return point, CDs, and the moment to moment changes in the fight. PW spam becomes less appealing when I know I can just pick and choose some targets, leap to them, and do a ton of worthwhile damage with my auto attack just as well and save my Initiative (each PW costs 5, mind you, and self roots) for something like Black Powder, which can be more useful.

But ignoring these specifics, the reason the class has Initiative and not merely CDs is because a major mechanic of the class is burst. If certain builds capitalize on that with a specific skill (ie. if a bleeding spec spams some Blossoms because *that*’s a good way to get bleeds and, therefore, the majority of their potential damage), that’s sort of just how it goes. You can build around a skill, if you like. It’s not a unique way to approach a build, Initiative just means that you see it directly manifest somewhat more.

I partially agree with the notion of allowing some more versatile build options but we certainly were designed with damage dealing in mind and there are ways to give us a moderated (note, moderate but not amazing) degree of survivability. Damage focused specs are inherently less durable but you can spec to minimize this to a degree, also with rune choice. That said, I do think you underestimate the capacity Dodge, Shadowstepping/Returning, and even small Stealth bursts can have for our uptime. And I do question how many rune sets you’ve played matches with.

As for the last point about poisons, you’ll hear no quarrel from me. No objections to upped duration with less immediate damage (unless someone specs to increase said damage).

To the OP: If this thread was a conversation in real life, I would take the heads of everyone who flames you or says ‘’who cares’’ and blabla, and smash them to eachother..
I got nothing more to say than, do not flame him. Help him.
To the flamers: Grow upp.
To the OP: you got my respect, thanks for sharing your ideals and possibly make this game even greater.

Someone takes their time to elaborate on why they don’t like a certain class, write it down properly, and what do half of the replies contain? No respectful answers, that’s for sure. Instead of flaming, discuss the points in a mature way. Maybe they’re right about some of the stuff, maybe not, that’s why we DISCUSS instead of telling them to shut up/stop whining/whatever, even if the general tone of the OP isn’t sugarcoated sweetness.

As for me, I just started playing a thief (level 14 now), so I don’t have a lot of experience so far and can’t say much about most of your points. I do agree about flanking strike being buggy, but I have definitely died a LOT less than on my elementalist, so at least so far the thief is easier to survive with (in my case!). The shortbow’s AOE combined with poison has saved me from a lot of mobs, and when that didn’t work stealth got me out.

Even though I’ve written a pretty sizable response to the OP, I do want to allow a bit more brevity and say that I think a few of his points are based on some fundamental confusions about what the class’ design philosophy is.

I agree with stealth feeling underwhelming. If the player is decently aware of the thief class you’ll more than likely never land a backstab with D/D, it’s just not reliable in PvP. Thieves are better in SPvP because of the smaller player size, in WvWvW they’re nearly useless.

Stop trying to convince him to come back, this thread just means one less thief cluttering up spvp games.

To clarify: I find thieves to be incredibly fun and they work just fine, so the amount of complaints about the class being made are unfounded.

this is exactly the kind of feedback Anet needs to hear , this class is broken and without these kinds of posts nothing is gonna get done. Sympathy grow up , no one writes these posts cause they want sympathy from kitten strangers, its for Anet if you have nothing constructive to comment on then your as useless as you ‘think’ the OP is, at least he is trying to get this class fixed.

Haven’t read entire thread but a good ways in.

I researched professions fairly thoroughly while the game was in final stress tests phase. Thief was most compelling as the most evasive, yet tricky ability set for the innovative combat on the move system that intrigued me deeply.

I think the original post has some legitimate points. However I am using a tough build that capitalizes on my evasive toolset and deals great bleed damage. And I think there are plenty of trait setups that put the thief at maximum strengths of their trickery and high speed maneuvers. I love it. Couldn’t main any other profession.

Thief
not Theif

Thieves’
not Theives

Rogue
not Rouge

All I will say to the trolls and flamers is this: Put your money where your mouth is. IF I’m such a baddy, THEN why don’t you explain why you think I’m wrong and what can be done to overcome the perceived “clunkiness” of the class. If you can’t do that (and so far, not a single one of you has), maybe you should re-think how great you are while you’re fapping that kitten, hmm? In the meanwhile, I’ve reported and blocked you appropriately.

To the rest of you: One thing I’m struggling with is getting kited to death in PVP. Since every class has such high mobility, I’ll often miss a Death Blossom even if I begin the animation right next to my enemy. I mean, it has to be PERFECT—-them standing still, no endurance to dodge roll, and no evasive skills off cooldown—-to land the 4 stacks of bleed. Even with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet, I can’t seem to stick to anyone. There’s always a slowing field or a cripple or an immobilize to ruin my day.

Also, is it just me, or do thieves have only one way to get rid of cripple (Roll for Initiative) that’s otherwise a lackluster spell?

I just can’t back off of CnD being unreliable. “SET UP FOR IT LOL” say the trolls… Right. How? Your enemy can dodge roll, stun you, teleport, and a host of other things that are OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. “But wait ’till their cooldowns are up, then strike!” …Ever face a mesmer who’s used all his cooldowns on you? Oh. Ok. Then you’ve been DEAD.

In fact, positioning is one of the worst things about being a melee-oriented thief. It could be that I should just be using ranged weapons a TON more. I’m open to that possibility. Like I said, I’m not an expert. Anyway… It’s extremely difficult (read: unreliable) to try and even get a backstab off on your enemy, because there’s just so much movement and because stealth’s talented “remove condition” only pulses once every 3 seconds and removes a RANDOM condition from you. So if I’m poisoned, crippled, and bleeding and I want to CnD and then backstab my opponent, I only have a 1/3 chance of actually getting behind them.

I don’t know, I’ve never turn down a buff to the class, and I do think it can be very paper-thin sometimes, but I still love my Thief, favorite class in the game. I’m currently running a level 45 Acro/Trickery Condition based DD/Short Thief, and think I’m quite powerful and useful to have around. Stealth is not super useful, but doesn’t need to be, these are not sneaky thieves, they are ninja thieves, they kill things, not wander around behind them.

Overall, I really do think you should play another class. Not permanently, maybe, but at least for a bit. You might enjoy it more, but more importantly you’d get some perspective. I’ve played a bit of every class, and have several at near the same level as my main, and I can tell you that your impressions of how other classes perform do not apply when you’re on the other side of them.

I encountered being kited alot as a dagger dagger thief focusing on stealth. There are a few options open to you.
Steal
D/D 4 skill (ranged cripple)
Blinding powder
Shadowstep
Infiltrator’s signet
Scorpion wire

Once on the target try to keep cripple up on the target.

Also you can trait a 4sec immobalise on hitting someone under 50% health

Traiting for stealth to remove conditions and 33% stealth speed would help. Also traiting stealth to blind foes nearby helps with the being hit situation.

Hope these help
:)

Alright Op I posted trying to help you earlier but you ignored it.

It someone is kiting you, SWITCH weapons to shortbow, or D/D whichever and use a CRIPPLE. Cripple is one of the best tools we thieves have to stop kiters and runners. D/D has a ranged cripple (number 4) and shortbow has one as well (number 3). Pick up signet of shadows gives you a 25% movement increase. Don’t worry about the signet that returns 1 initiative every 10 seconds because when you look at build options there are a lot more efficient ways to return initiative, you can spec for steal to give 3 init. You can Spec for when stealthed initiative recharges faster, you can spec to be an additional 3 initiative added to your max, you can even spec to have a chance to return initiative on crits. If you are having a problem getting kited, cripple and signet of shadows and even if necessary switch to shortbow and pop an infiltrators arrow behind them. Once you utilize your tools and conditions kiters are extremely easy to take care of for thieves. Not to mention you want them to kite as that leaves their back open to you 90% of the time.

When they say set up cloak and dagger what they mean is if you can’t land it pop devourers venom then hit them and land it, or basilisk venom, or a trap, or line it up for after you use steal. If you don’t have steal trained to stealth you (20pts in shadow tree) then hit steal and immediately hit C and D. Pop a Heartseeker to close gaps, that thing is a homing missile so 90% of the time if they are circle strafing you can still catch up to/hit them.

My next point. You HAVE HAVE HAVE To be able to move in this game. Circle strafing is the most important aspect of fighting. You cannot just move in a straight line or stand still people will wreck you.

Op movement and circle strafing will allow you to land cloak and dagger on players with your eyes closed. As a thief You Have Control Over the Battlefield, everyone else is fighting on your terms. You circle strafe the enemy and attack them while they can’t hit you, you CANNOT let it be the other way around. Playing extremely aggressively on the thief works wonders. Control the fight with your stealth options. Pick up blinding powder, that is an amazing utility skill it blinds them and immediately stealths you. You have the power to keep the enemy REACTING to you at all times this is key. You do not want to be forced to react to someone else.

If you are getting stomped an amazing trick to get away is blinding powder, then immediately switch to shortbow and get off 2 infiltrators arrows in a direction while stealthed, you will be LONG gone before they even know what happened.

Apparently there’s a rather harsh limit on post length. Gonna try to smoosh this into two or three posts I suppose.

When Stealth Isn’t Stealthy
I cannot express to you how much it disappointed me to realize that stealthing was so inefficient in this game. Cloak and Dagger is impossible to hit in PVP due to the incredibly mobile nature of EVERY CLASS compared to the thief. It’s not a skill you can use in a pinch or… well… ever, really. It costs a ton of initiative (even if you miss!!!) and is just really clunky in general. Your healing skill that stealths you has a long cast time and can be interrupted. Shadow Refuge rarely seems to work correctly, and you get popped out of it for doing anything but just standing there.
The biggest problem with all this is that I don’t FEEL stealthy. I feel like I can go invulnerable for 3 seconds at a time on occasion. No, I didn’t play a rogue in WoW; I played a feral druid. At first I thought the in-and-out stealth system of GW2 looked promising, but after experiencing it for myself I can honestly say it feels awkward, clunky, and terrible.
An aside: I was told by one friend on the opposite PVP team that stealthing does not make you invisible in PVP, but rather camouflages you. He claimed that he could see me in stealth. I have yet to experience this phenomenon versus other thieves, but if it’s true I will definitely quit the class.

Stealthing in GW2 is not meant to be what it was in WoW. It is not a free trip to safety – it is something that has to be executed well to be effective.

It is very possible to land Cloak and Dagger in PvP. I do it very often and I do it successfully. It simply takes practice to get the timing and positioning right. Once you have the feel of it it is not that difficult to perform. The same goes for the stealth heal. It is not an “Oh Shiz” button. It is meant to be timed appropriately. Use it when you think something nasty is coming, not when it has already hit you.

Short story: If you practice and become good at it, you can be very very very stealthy. You just need to learn how to do it.

Possible solutions:
-Create a utility skill that simply and instantly stealths you for a moderate period of time (5+sec).
-Remove the cast time from the heal skill.
-Change Cloak and Dagger to cloak you whether or not the skill hits.

We already have a skill that instantly stealths us. It is called Blinding Powder and not only does it stealth us, it stealths all allies near us as well as blinding foes in the area.

If the cast time was removed from the heal skill it would be way too easy to just slip into stealth with it repeatedly. The timing is, again, something that needs to be practiced.

Cloak and Dagger stealthing regardless of whether or not the skill actually landed would be insanely OP. In theory we would be able to stealth anywhere at any distance from a target, or even if there was no target at all every few seconds. Way too powerful.

Roll for Initiative the only way for Thief to remove cripple? LOL. I’ll give you 2 more: Withdraw, and/or spec for Fleet of Foot. Weren’t you complaining about not enough survivability or ways to ‘instantly avoid damage’?

Then of course there’s your condition removal abilities such as Signet of Agility or Shadow Return, which, while they won’t always remove the condition you want, are certainly capable of removing cripple.

Anyway, the problem I have with threads like these is that they really are your run-of-the-mill “qq my class is busted” threads, thinly disguised as “let’s talk class balance!”. You expect to come in here, tell a bunch of people that they really aren’t doing well with their Thieves, and get helpful feedback in return? Then when people do give suggestions anyway, you make up reasons why that doesn’t work? How can you expect to ever fix what’s wrong with this kind of mentality?

If you have any desire to play the class at all, you should be hoping that the problem is you, because that is fixable without ArenaNet’s intervention.

Why would I spend any time at all trying to prove to you that it is a viable class, when you would clearly rather believe the class to be broken, and not your playstyle?

If you were serious about getting better, you would have posted your entire build/weapon/skill setup and asked for advice, rather than simply claiming to have tried them all and found them lacking, and then calling for buffs.

Gimme Less Gimmick
Heartseeker spam was stupid. And guess what? It got nerfed. Rightly. And guess what other thieves are doing now? Coming up with other stupid, spammy builds designed to 100-0 people in three seconds (Pistol Whip spam anyone?). People will complain, and that will get nerfed too. RIGHTLY.
There is no doubt that thieves should be bursty. LOTS of classes are bursty (why are Guardians impossible to kill yet can pretty much global me?). But piling all your 60 second utility skills on top of each other and then spamming a single skill until you’re out of Initiative is NOT ideal. It’s the result of poor design.
See, there are no combo points here. Fine. There’s no “rotation.” …Slightly less fine, but workable. But the reason people are piling all their cooldowns into one skill is that half the weapon skills are underwhelming. You won’t get “combo’d” by a theif because Flanking Strike is worthless and he’d rather use auto-attacks. THAT IS NOT OKAY.
TLDR: Spamming moves is the result of poor design with regard to thief weapon skills, and we will continue the cat-and-mouse game of “how many of Skill X can I spam when I pop Haste” until a real re-work occurs.
Possible Solutions:
-Take a look at some of the more worthless Theif skills. Then buff them.
-Change Haste.

All of these cheese builds are easily countered if one knows how to do it, especially by another thief. I have enough utilities and evasive maneuvers to dance around those cheese builds til kingdom come. I’ve only ever died to them when I either screwed up or I was already being bombed by a group of people and could not get away (in which case honestly I was done regardless before the thief came along). Again, this comes down to practice and becoming skillful at the class. You have to be willing to do this or you will continue to be destroyed by these builds.

Possible Solutions:
-Take a look at some of the more worthless Theif skills. Then buff them.
-Change Haste.

I won’t go into the whole “which thief skills are bad” etc discussion. That pretty comes down to play style preference and situation. What is worthless in one area may be wonderful in another.

Haste is fine. Just counter it. The thief’s endurance will be gone and they will most likely have 0 initiative from spamming skills at air (this of course implying that you should move when you see them coming/appear). They’ll be sitting ducks at that point.

The Glass Cannon That Didn’t Fire
Without the above “blow everything and spam skill X” strategy, thieves have absolutely nothing going for them. I’ve tried every conceivable build to no avail. I’ve tried stacking survivability and utility skills… and did absolutely no damage. I’ve tried being evasive and Traiting into Acrobatics and such… and did no damage, AND died in 2 seconds.
From my experience (and I could be missing something here), the thief is just not survivable enough. This largely results from the stealth problem listed above. “But Paw, mesmers and elementalists are super squishy too!” Right… but squishiness =/= survivability. While mesmer clones are usually easy to distinguish, mesmers have enough utility skills (slows, stuns, confusion stacks, etc.) to keep themselves alive while still doing silly damage. Also, ever faced a water/earth elementalist? They can quite literally tank 3 or 4 people for a minute or more with their shields, mist form, heals, and crowd control.
What’s missing from our kit? A real way to INSTANTLY dodge damage. Even during Death Lotus, for example, the thief will catch damage from AoE, those fking spin moves everyone and their mother has, and condition damage… and that’s IF the target stands perfectly still so you can keep using Death Lotus and actually HIT them.
TLDR: Our utility survival skills, evasion and stealth, aren’t effective enough.

Thief has the most amazing dodge/endurance gain potential out of any class I have seen. If played correctly the thief can dodge/evade nearly every attack thrown at them if they are set up to do so. Cheese builds can’t touch me and I have very nice survivability. I am able to remove conditions on stealth and gain vigor/initiative on heal. I almost never run out of endurance and I can dodge attacks like a maniac. No, I do not hit as hard, but I do not get hit nearly as much either. Is this more balanced setup a bit harder to learn than running in yelling “GLASS CANNNNOOONNN!!!”? Yes, perhaps. But overall being a complete glass cannon will not get you wins against more skillful players. If I play my part correctly I win. If I mess up I lose. It is not necessary to be a glass cannon as a thief!

Possible solutions:
-Fix Flanking Strike/HSS/Death Lotus/etc. to actually STICK ON your target so that they can be used properly as both damage and survival tools.
-Give stealth an AoE damage reduction. I’m sick of casting Shadow refuge only to have ele’s/rangers/engineers pelt the relatively small circle with area damage and kill me.

HS/Death Lotus/etc already stick to targets pretty darn well. It seems you are basically requesting that all timing/aiming be removed completely. If you want things like that handed to you on a silver platter thief is not the class for you. This, again, comes down to learning how to play the class effectively.

Yes, AOE hurts badly. It is best to not drop the stealth circle near where someone is about to AOE, or near where someone has the capacity to do it. It is one of the counters to the shadow refuge skill. If there was no counter to it it’d be pretty insane.

Nobody Poisoned the Water Hole
All I can say about poisons is that they don’t “feel” right. A poison that lasts for 2 weapon strikes is just… lame. Most of them aren’t that powerful, and have extremely long cooldowns. I would rather the poisons actually be WEAKER and last longer (10+ charges). I won’t even mention the abomination that is Basalisk Venom.
TLDR: Buff poisons.kitten

The venoms are very powerful when used correctly and with skillful timing. They are not intended to easily lock someone down for you or stick a perma debuff on them. I agree that Basilisk Venom can be a bit meh. But when used in conjunction with Venomous Aura is is pretty terrifying. If you’re not using Venomous Aura, perhaps use an ultimate better suited to your spec.

Conclusion
*
Guys, look: These are my opinions and impressions after having played my thief for a decent amount of time. I’m not an expert, I’m not a gladiator, and I’m not even level 80. I just came here to talk about how the class feels to me, what my expectations were for a thief-rouge-assassin-ninja-type class, and why those expectations were decimated as I advanced in level and tried PVP. Feel free to disagree, but please know that if you flame or spam one-liners like “lol he thinks thieves are UP what a scrub L2P noob” I’m just going to report you, ignore you, and move on with the thread. I would like this to turn into a good discussion (I’m even open to an advice thread)… But if it doesn’t, I’ll just quit my thief and quietly move on.

I can tell you’re fairly new to the class and I do not mean this in an offensive way. It comes down to simply this. Either you take the time to dedicate to learning the class and becoming familiar with the timing and strategy or you won’t. All I can say is if it’s an archetype you enjoy stick with it through the tough learning spots.

bluescape.9176:

bwillb.2165:

Honestly anyone who thinks pistol-whip needs a nerf instantly lose credibility. The only way you can die to that is if you’re practically afk, not moving at all. It’s a very underwhelming skill in PvP and out-damaged by hundred blades in PvE.

Can you not move while pistolwhipping? It happens at the end of it’s cast, right?

You can move, but it stops the ability if you do and doesn’t refund the initiative.
Here’s how pistol whip works:

1. casting time. Takes about a second to fill the bar. When this bar is filling the thief can’t do any other attacks and pistol whip is dealing no damage, nor has it stunned yet.

2. pistol stun. Thief smacks target with his pistol. target is stunned for half a second, but it takes about that long for the sword strikes to start after the stun animation ends. thief is rooted during this animation.

3. sword strikes. good damage, but if the thief moves they stop. takes about 2-3 seconds for the strikes to all hit

bwillb.2165:

bluescape.9176:

bwillb.2165:

Honestly anyone who thinks pistol-whip needs a nerf instantly lose credibility. The only way you can die to that is if you’re practically afk, not moving at all. It’s a very underwhelming skill in PvP and out-damaged by hundred blades in PvE.

Can you not move while pistolwhipping? It happens at the end of it’s cast, right?

You can move, but it stops the ability if you do and doesn’t refund the initiative.
Here’s how pistol whip works:

1. casting time. Takes about a second to fill the bar. When this bar is filling the thief can’t do any other attacks and pistol whip is dealing no damage, nor has it stunned yet.

2. pistol stun. Thief smacks target with his pistol. target is stunned for half a second, but it takes about that long for the sword strikes to start after the stun animation ends. thief is rooted during this animation.

3. sword strikes. good damage, but if the thief moves they stop. takes about 2-3 seconds for the strikes to all hit

All true, only I would add that you can move (and Steal) during #1 and the ability will still go through.

Kintari.4172:

bwillb.2165:

bluescape.9176:

bwillb.2165:

Honestly anyone who thinks pistol-whip needs a nerf instantly lose credibility. The only way you can die to that is if you’re practically afk, not moving at all. It’s a very underwhelming skill in PvP and out-damaged by hundred blades in PvE.

Can you not move while pistolwhipping? It happens at the end of it’s cast, right?

You can move, but it stops the ability if you do and doesn’t refund the initiative.
Here’s how pistol whip works:

1. casting time. Takes about a second to fill the bar. When this bar is filling the thief can’t do any other attacks and pistol whip is dealing no damage, nor has it stunned yet.

2. pistol stun. Thief smacks target with his pistol. target is stunned for half a second, but it takes about that long for the sword strikes to start after the stun animation ends. thief is rooted during this animation.

3. sword strikes. good damage, but if the thief moves they stop. takes about 2-3 seconds for the strikes to all hit

All true, only I would add that you can move (and Steal) during #1 and the ability will still go through.

Yeah you can move during the warm-up cast timer, but not once the ability has started firing.

OP thief in this game is honestly not for you. You’re looking for a stealth and assassinate build, and GW 2 doesn’t offer one. The thief is more of a light skirmisher, and the brief stealth options seem to be meant to be gap closers only (I haven’t progressed very far, so I could be wrong about that, but this is how thief feels to me so far).

I can’t believe someone doesn’t like the stealth since it’s bugged and provide a lot more than 3sec (or 4 if traited) stealth on enemy screen.

A lot of these responses are confusing. You guys do realize you can only have 3 utility skills on your bar at once, right? The whole “Use scorpion wire and shadowstep to close gaps and blinding powder and shadow refuge and then maybe a devourer venom to immobilize…” makes sense if you’re making the argument that there are spells in existence that immobilize, shadowstep, and etc. But obviously they can’t all be equipped at once…

I don’t know. The general tenor is “I get it and you don’t, neener neener neener.” You call my OP a thinly disguised QQ, I call yours a thinly disguised circle jerk. Who says the art of conversation is dead, right?!?! I’m done wasting energy on people who want to do nothing but put words in my mouth and call me a baddie. I hope you all get what you deserve someday. Peace.

Pryda.8257:

I can’t believe someone doesn’t like the stealth since it’s bugged and provide a lot more than 3sec (or 4 if traited) stealth on enemy screen.

That’s not really a stealth bug, it’s lag. I get the same thing against non-thieves if I come at them too quickly.

I know I’m writing this, it would seem, after you’ve left the thread but I’m doing it anyway. Hopefully you’ll see it and it might give you ideas if you consider the class again at some point in the future.

Pawstruck.9708:

A lot of these responses are confusing. You guys do realize you can only have 3 utility skills on your bar at once, right? The whole “Use scorpion wire and shadowstep to close gaps and blinding powder and shadow refuge and then maybe a devourer venom to immobilize…” makes sense if you’re making the argument that there are spells in existence that immobilize, shadowstep, and etc. But obviously they can’t all be equipped at once…

Of course not. But you can find the mixes that work for you. Since you seem to want mobility and stealth, I’d suggest that Blinding Powder and Shadowstep would probably be things you’d want. Pistol/Dagger seems like something that you could enjoy. You can still do some things with CnD and to get around your (generally valid point) about the worth of poisons, you could consider prioritizing the length of your bleeds instead. Deadly and Shadow Arts would probably be the trees to look at. Together, you’d get a fair deal of mileage out of your steal ability as well.

But that’s just a small suggestion.

I don’t know. The general tenor is “I get it and you don’t, neener neener neener.” …I’m done wasting energy on people who want to do nothing but put words in my mouth and call me a baddie. I hope you all get what you deserve someday. Peace.

I feel bad that you’re painting with such a broad brush. I’d like to help make this class work for you but I’m not sure what you’re looking for entirely. And I do think that you’re not quite thinking of the class in the way that the developers are. There are options though. And I think that you could find something that works generally close to the stealther archetype you seem to want.

Well.. I was gonna write a lengthly reply, but I think you’ve been hounded enough by other people so ill just say one thing.

Well.. I was gonna write a lengthly reply, but I think you’ve been hounded enough by other people so ill just say one thing.I suggest trying your thief again, and ask a good thief how to play the class better..

Well.. I was gonna write a lengthly reply, but I think you’ve been hounded enough by other people so ill just say one thing.I suggest trying your thief again, and ask a good thief how to play the class better..you’ve got some learning to do.

Every class can use some tweaks here and there…but IMO for the thief at least there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the class.

And by the way, stealth isn’t just defined by going “invisible.”

DEFINITION: “The act of moving, proceeding, or acting in a covert way.”

And BTW many times I have entered a keep/enemy area unseen with a few of my friends. We didn’t get in because we were “invisible”. We got in because we moved quickly without causing attention.

Movement, dodging and KNOWING your skills and utilities functionality is key to playing a thief. Respectfully I think what a lot of people are missing here is that Guild Wars 2 combat is actually based more around positioning than most MMORPG’s. In a lot of MMO’s you can’t escape attacks if you back away and create distance between you and your opponent and you sure as hell can’t dodge in most of them.

As a thief dodging, moving and going into stealth from different skills is key. CONFUSE YOUR OPPONENT. Your a thief after all. Don’t stop moving and encircle them. Cripple the kiters as mentioned above and use your speed to your advantage.

The utilities are all unique and you can really set up some unique play styles based on them.

I have heard a lot of hate on traps and poisons too. Traps are excellent to use, especially in WvW. Someone tailing you? Drop a trap. Holding a bridge? Drop a trap. Coordinate a bunch of traps with your fellow server mates and you can have your enemies turn into sitting ducks. Poisons aren’t going to be miracle killers. They give you and edge when you time them right.

Also tinker with those traits! It is very surprising and great how allotting your points and setting different things within them can vastly change how your thief works. I am pretty sure this applies to all classes.

AGAIN…. Tinker. Experiment. Practice. Know your skills, traits and utilities. LEARN YOUR CLASS.
If you still don’t like it…. umm choose another?

sorry i cant help but not agree with OP. I illustrated why i disagreed with a number of his points, many of which boil down to “i dont like how x plays i wanted y” or wanting the dumbing down of skills (cast times taken away, other skills working regardless of the hit landing) which imo would be terrible

A lot of these responses are confusing. You guys do realize you can only have 3 utility skills on your bar at once, right? The whole “Use scorpion wire and shadowstep to close gaps and blinding powder and shadow refuge and then maybe a devourer venom to immobilize…” makes sense if you’re making the argument that there are spells in existence that immobilize, shadowstep, and etc. But obviously they can’t all be equipped at once…

No, but they give you options when deciding which ability you like. I have Ambush, Roll, Shadow Refuge, and Buddy Thieves on my bar, and that’s plenty.

For the most part there is nothing wrong with this class. Sure it might need a tweak or two, but nothing major.

It’s obvious the OP doesn’t actually want to learn how to play the class better. He/she makes excuses for every suggestion.

If you don’t like the way the class was designed, but enjoy the arch type this can be frustrating. If it’s more a matter of you can’t/wont learn how to play it well then I imagine it’s still frustrating.

I think the thief class is fantastic and am having loads of fun with it.