Why I hate thieves

Why I hate thieves

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Posted by: DrDivine.5378

DrDivine.5378

Not because I think they’re OP, in fact, I like that they can do their job well again but also be countered, all in all I like the spot it’s in right now.

So whats so bad about it then? The playerbase, oh god the playerbase lol. Everytime thief is in a decent spot, I always get a thief that just completely fails at the role. They always decap without actually capping the point despite having time and for some reason, they’re always slow. The tools are there, why are we going faster than you around the map?

I had one last night decap far but left it neutral, went mid and died. When we asked about it, “I decap neutral to waste their time!” if I ask why they died, “thief isn’t good at 1v1s,” when we ask why they died at mid “thief isn’t good at team fights”

So what the kitten is thief good at being then? A neutral bot? lol jk but seriously the thief community is the worst.

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Posted by: Azure The Heartless.3261

Azure The Heartless.3261

Thief has a minuscule intermediate skill bracket. Because of the nature of the class you either are a bad thief or an outstanding one most likely.

Thieves were decap bots until just recently, but due to some recent buffs and struggle from the playerbase they are slowly working back into the 1v1 scene.

If your thief is not fast and will not decap far despite having time, that’s not a class failing. If they died at mid and they werent 1vX, that’s not a class failing either.

Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.

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Posted by: Lukas.7159

Lukas.7159

the reason why most thiefs go only for a decap is the following:

a) there is respawn which will most likely go to their close to get the node back, there is 0 reason to waste like 15secs to fullcap if you cant hold the node 1-1 anyway and get decapped 5secs later on

b) while you decap, your team is outnumbered

sure you can fullcap, but if meanwhile your whole team dies 4v5, you think you can hold the node if they gonna push it then? not really hu

the only time you go for a fullcap is if you got a heavy comp that can tank the outnumbered situation for the time till you are back OR if your team starts losing the fight, then you go far and fullcap and pray to god your teammates are smart enough to disengage and play the other 2 nodes (which will 99% never happen in soloQ)

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Posted by: Azure The Heartless.3261

Azure The Heartless.3261

sure you can fullcap, but if meanwhile your whole team dies 4v5, you think you can hold the node if they gonna push it then? not really hu

This is something to consider as well. Be sure the thief isn’t decapping only because the rest of your comp is fragile or cannot sustain long enough for them to cap before thinking they doesn’t know what they’re doing.

The problem could easily be they don’t trust the rest of your squad not to die.

Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

As a thief this is how I tend to analyze the cost-benefit of decap/fullcap:

I will full cap if my team is fully or mostly sustaining the mid fight. I’m not in a rush if they aren’t dying and my full cap will put more pressure on them and divide their team as much as possible.

I will just decap if my team needs help at mid. As mentioned there is no point in full capping just to lose the point a little bit later. Even if they recap it 20 seconds later that is a decent chunk of points. Repeat that a few times and you will have a good lead.

I will not decap if my team needs a +1 at home more than the few points they gain from keeping the point. This often happens when I don’t trust my team to +1 home because the mid fight hasn’t gone well and I’m better able to cross the map to help.

I will also decap as I can when most/entire team wipes at mid. This is usually where the largest problems occur. If my team can’t sustain long enough for me to perform a simple decap then I will have a problem decapping because their mid fighters will come to me.

My final thought is more generic but worth mentioning I think: sometimes we get outplayed. For example, there was a DH I fought pre-season who for a while during this season was top 5 in the NA leaderboard (with a lot of games played). He was extraordinary. He was fighting 1v3 and just not dying. He was using every bit of terrain and utility skills. He was solo holding my team’s home while rotating back to mid as needed. The rest of his team did well enough but he was their mvp by far. I couldn’t properly decap because his play freed up enough teammates to stop any decap from happening.

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Posted by: DrDivine.5378

DrDivine.5378

As a thief this is how I tend to analyze the cost-benefit of decap/fullcap:

I will full cap if my team is fully or mostly sustaining the mid fight. I’m not in a rush if they aren’t dying and my full cap will put more pressure on them and divide their team as much as possible.

I will just decap if my team needs help at mid. As mentioned there is no point in full capping just to lose the point a little bit later. Even if they recap it 20 seconds later that is a decent chunk of points. Repeat that a few times and you will have a good lead.

I will not decap if my team needs a +1 at home more than the few points they gain from keeping the point. This often happens when I don’t trust my team to +1 home because the mid fight hasn’t gone well and I’m better able to cross the map to help.

I will also decap as I can when most/entire team wipes at mid. This is usually where the largest problems occur. If my team can’t sustain long enough for me to perform a simple decap then I will have a problem decapping because their mid fighters will come to me.

My final thought is more generic but worth mentioning I think: sometimes we get outplayed. For example, there was a DH I fought pre-season who for a while during this season was top 5 in the NA leaderboard (with a lot of games played). He was extraordinary. He was fighting 1v3 and just not dying. He was using every bit of terrain and utility skills. He was solo holding my team’s home while rotating back to mid as needed. The rest of his team did well enough but he was their mvp by far. I couldn’t properly decap because his play freed up enough teammates to stop any decap from happening.

I have seen neutralizing a point done correctly, but I think a good thief player especially needs great map awareness as picking the correct fights is crucial to what they’re best at. For example, I had one thief decap far without capping it, there was the usual big fight at mid but also one of their players was attacking our guy capping home at the start of the match. I really thought he wouldve either fully capped far or neutralized it and went home to +1 the enemy in that 1v1. But what happened was he instead chose to go mid where he was double layered in traps since they had two DHs and died first

I feel like thief is best +1ing to put your enemy at a disadvantage. You could maybe get away with it mid in some instances, I think with two DHs and a tempest you don’t be doing much reliable backstabbing.

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Posted by: ParanoidKami.2867

ParanoidKami.2867

Some players are just bad. It’s not Thieves in particular but is actually evenly distributed among the classes. Thieves are just more visible when they’re not good because you can judge them from how they move on the mini-map. I main a Thief and I’ve won the last 9 of my 10 games.

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Posted by: DrDivine.5378

DrDivine.5378

Some players are just bad. It’s not Thieves in particular but is actually evenly distributed among the classes. Thieves are just more visible when they’re not good because you can judge them from how they move on the mini-map. I main a Thief and I’ve won the last 9 of my 10 games.

This is true, but I think there is more of a skill gap between classes such as a thief and a DH. A thief you can very easily be one of the best or the worst on your team, no disrespect to DH mains but they can deal out a lot of damage and such with comfortable options for recovery.

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Posted by: ParanoidKami.2867

ParanoidKami.2867

Some players are just bad. It’s not Thieves in particular but is actually evenly distributed among the classes. Thieves are just more visible when they’re not good because you can judge them from how they move on the mini-map. I main a Thief and I’ve won the last 9 of my 10 games.

This is true, but I think there is more of a skill gap between classes such as a thief and a DH. A thief you can very easily be one of the best or the worst on your team, no disrespect to DH mains but they can deal out a lot of damage and such with comfortable options for recovery.

Doesn’t matter if they just stay on a point and let their team get 5v4’d or double cap a point. Thieves who can’t do anything just haven’t figured something out about their class and it’s the same with everyone on any class.

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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

Some players are just bad. It’s not Thieves in particular but is actually evenly distributed among the classes. Thieves are just more visible when they’re not good because you can judge them from how they move on the mini-map. I main a Thief and I’ve won the last 9 of my 10 games.

This is true, but I think there is more of a skill gap between classes such as a thief and a DH. A thief you can very easily be one of the best or the worst on your team, no disrespect to DH mains but they can deal out a lot of damage and such with comfortable options for recovery.

So… basically what you’re saying is that you don’t like thieves because their job requires a complicated skill (map awareness) opposed to things like Dragon kitten that can just place a trap and /dance while blocking?

Several people already talked about some key points that are not easy to master in this topic, things a thief has to master to be halfway decent. Cut them some freakin slack. We were all newbs once.

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: Wargameur.6950

Wargameur.6950

When I started playing thief someone told me I needed at least a thousand game to “master” the profession…Two thousand games later, I can say I’m not a beginner anymore but I’m far from mastering all the in and outs of the role.

The easy answer to thief role is “decap and +1” but the reality is very different. Playing thief is pretty much the same thing as beeing able to make your every moves / decisions worth it. And capitalize on it. Sometimes I manage to do it, sometimes not. Sometimes it’s because of the team, sometimes it’s because I made kitten decisions…

main ~ Esper Jace (Thief )/ Ellundril Jiluan
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Posted by: ParanoidKami.2867

ParanoidKami.2867

A Thief also relies on his team to know what they’re doing. With some teams you really can’t do a single thing because there are no situations to do anything. Depending on the timezone I play on, there are vastly different skills of players and I do noticeably better on a team of people who know what they’re doing as opposed to a team that doesn’t.

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Posted by: TehHobNob.4687

TehHobNob.4687

This is the sole reason I haven’t gotten into pvp since launch. I love playing thief but everyone thinks they are in the right and the easiest blame is the thief. Even if they do their job people still find a way to throw the blame their way. I don’t need that stress. I’ll stick to wvw team fights and roaming instead. I just simply find it more fun.

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Posted by: ParanoidKami.2867

ParanoidKami.2867

This is the sole reason I haven’t gotten into pvp since launch. I love playing thief but everyone thinks they are in the right and the easiest blame is the thief. Even if they do their job people still find a way to throw the blame their way. I don’t need that stress. I’ll stick to wvw team fights and roaming instead. I just simply find it more fun.

I just turn off chat when that happens. Really annoying.

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Posted by: Rokkis.8901

Rokkis.8901

Thief seem to require somewhat more tactical awareness than for example the said DH. You could “do fine” just spamming mid as DH for the whole game, or even just standing at one point from start to end in some cases.

As thief you you have to keep on moving, if you don’t move to right places you’re probably just being useless. Also you have to understand which fights you can take and which not, as someone pointed out, weighing the the results of actions.

I have recently started to play my thief in PvP and as a rather unseasoned player I find it a good practise in my way to understanding the rotational play. When I play DH I just run somewhere, start dishing out damage and that’s pretty much it, some times a random 1v1 or stalling for backup. A good thief can carry so hard (at my scrub level thank you) by rotating and being able to blow someone up casually while passing by.

Just learning the ultimate damage burst moves isn’t that helpful. I’ve fought some thieves, that can do the burst at start, and when I don’t die they dance around clearly not having any idea what should happen next. There are of course people, that get blown up by thief, log into theirs thinking “well that is easy, I can do that”. After couple of losses they realise, as did I , that there’s really much deeper gameplay that doesn’t even revolve around doing damage.

(edited by Rokkis.8901)

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Posted by: godmoney.6025

godmoney.6025

Sometimes it’s just impossible to do your intended role as a thief, because of your teammates.

Few games ago I was going +1 on close to make it 2v1. Our mesmer starts screaming at me to go decap far. I finish the +1 at close (in our favour and we get close back). Decide to make a run for far – but wait, mesmer decided to go contest far, and dies to druid and DH. Enemy Druid decides to camp at far – I see this and ignore far for now. Mesmer goes far again, dies almost instantly- he probably didn’t anticipate DH just left him some trap bombs under the druid.
Our team asks him why he is dying at far again – he replies – COZ IM DOING THIEF JOB. THIEF GO PVE FARM MUSSELS OR SOMETHING.

Because the pigeon-holed view of thief in some players minds are so obscured, they think when the thief is not on far – he isn’t doing his job – and then they decide they should be doing it. Sometimes there is good reason not to be on far – and while the mesmer above decides to go and try to cap a point with an enemy on it (and dies in the process) – our team is missing out on the great pressure he (condi mesmer) could have applied in team fights. Players like him make our ‘thief jobs’ so much more difficult.

La Fantoma – Aurora Glade

(edited by godmoney.6025)

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Posted by: Wargameur.6950

Wargameur.6950

Sometimes it’s just impossible to do your intended role as a thief, because of your teammates.

Few games ago I was going +1 on close to make it 2v1. Our mesmer starts screaming at me to go decap far. I finish the +1 at close (in our favour and we get close back). Decide to make a run for far – but wait, mesmer decided to go contest far, and dies to druid and DH. Enemy Druid decides to camp at far – I see this and ignore far for now. Mesmer goes far again, dies almost instantly- he probably didn’t anticipate DH just left him some trap bombs under the druid.
Our team asks him why he is dying at far again – he replies – COZ IM DOING THIEF JOB. THIEF GO PVE FARM MUSSELS OR SOMETHING.

Because the pigeon-holed view of thief in some players minds are so obscured, they think when the thief is not on far – he isn’t doing his job – and then they decide they should be doing it. Sometimes there is good reason not to be on far – and while the mesmer above decides to go and try to cap a point with an enemy on it (and dies in the process) – our team is missing out on the great pressure he (condi mesmer) could have applied in team fights. Players like him make our ‘thief jobs’ so much more difficult.

Ahahah I get those sometimes. Once I was on skyhammer, at the beginning I went for close. A thief and a rev went for me. Of course I couldn’t hold a close point 1v2 so I rushed far to decap it. My team obviously won the mid fight 4v2 and then yelled at me “WTF is our thief doing fighting in the middle of the map”….sigh

I think those comments come from people that don’t have any map awareness unless they have nothing else to do. They have no idea what the situation is but still think they are in the right.

main ~ Esper Jace (Thief )/ Ellundril Jiluan
(mesmer ) – EU [Teef]

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

Sometimes it’s just impossible to do your intended role as a thief, because of your teammates.

Few games ago I was going +1 on close to make it 2v1. Our mesmer starts screaming at me to go decap far. I finish the +1 at close (in our favour and we get close back). Decide to make a run for far – but wait, mesmer decided to go contest far, and dies to druid and DH. Enemy Druid decides to camp at far – I see this and ignore far for now. Mesmer goes far again, dies almost instantly- he probably didn’t anticipate DH just left him some trap bombs under the druid.
Our team asks him why he is dying at far again – he replies – COZ IM DOING THIEF JOB. THIEF GO PVE FARM MUSSELS OR SOMETHING.

Because the pigeon-holed view of thief in some players minds are so obscured, they think when the thief is not on far – he isn’t doing his job – and then they decide they should be doing it. Sometimes there is good reason not to be on far – and while the mesmer above decides to go and try to cap a point with an enemy on it (and dies in the process) – our team is missing out on the great pressure he (condi mesmer) could have applied in team fights. Players like him make our ‘thief jobs’ so much more difficult.

Yeah I’ve both been the thief who’s criticized and been the person criticizing in that same situation. Did you happen to tell the team that the druid was temporarily bunking far? It’s really crucial to communicate that, if someone else goes far then you can 2v1 and win it. From there you can fullcap it and throw the other team off their rhythm. But that’s not gonna happen without your communication. Your mesmer was an idiot to try and do things by himself (without being good enough to win 1v1) but he didn’t have the wrong idea. Bad teamwork on his part is what made his effort ineffective.

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Posted by: godmoney.6025

godmoney.6025

@huskyboy Yeah his idea wasn’t bad. Our mesmer just didn’t communicate and/or did these things at moments where it was difficult for us to back him up, because we were engaged in other fights in situations where if we go assist him, it might cost us a mid or a close.
Nor did he place down portals to assist him in escaping or assist us in porting in to help him.

I try and call out my moments beforehand, where I’m moving, if enemy team members are sitting on points, where the enemy is moving between points, etc.

La Fantoma – Aurora Glade

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

“Decent spot” may not be the most accessible spot.

What has always been the case, and still seems to be, is that there’s a large gap between god-like and trash tier. Average/decent, is rarely to be found.

Having taking a break from GW2, and now lurking around again, I can see that the thief hasn’t moved out of the spot that I last saw it in… Meaning… The spot that it’s in right now, is the spot that GW2 devs want it to be and will keep it in – get used to it.

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Posted by: Wargameur.6950

Wargameur.6950

“Decent spot” may not be the most accessible spot.

What has always been the case, and still seems to be, is that there’s a large gap between god-like and trash tier. Average/decent, is rarely to be found.

Hum…I think you are wrong on this one. If you only consider a game, I agree with you, the thief job is either well done or butchered / rendered useless there is no middle ground. But you still find thieves on all level. There are matches you are able to make +1 work, others not.

btw nice to see you on the forum again.

main ~ Esper Jace (Thief )/ Ellundril Jiluan
(mesmer ) – EU [Teef]

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Posted by: reinforever.8902

reinforever.8902

Not because I think they’re OP, in fact, I like that they can do their job well again but also be countered, all in all I like the spot it’s in right now.

Forgive my ignorance as I just returned to the game after about a year long break (thank you BDO) and I know the situation with thief was looking very dire when I left (pun intended to condi builds). So what exactly did they change to make their job well again?

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

“Decent spot” may not be the most accessible spot.

What has always been the case, and still seems to be, is that there’s a large gap between god-like and trash tier. Average/decent, is rarely to be found.

Hum…I think you are wrong on this one. If you only consider a game, I agree with you, the thief job is either well done or butchered / rendered useless there is no middle ground. But you still find thieves on all level. There are matches you are able to make +1 work, others not.

btw nice to see you on the forum again.

Maybe there is.
From what I can remember, it used to feel that until a certain point in terms of how well you performed – you might as well be on another class because you would perform significantly better. If that makes sense.

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