Guild Wars 2

From the start I knew the acrobatics changes had to be made, since the overall buff in the quantity of traits meant that the dodge potential of acrobatics had to be changed. But more so I believe the overhaul of a lot of the traits is to change the reason for choosing acrobatics. I believe the acro changes are to suit the new specialization trait-line coming for Thief. Together they will synergies to either re-vitalize s/d thief play style or to either introduce a new role to thief entirely so that thief can sustain without use of stealth.

I can’t believe for a minute that Arena Net would let a very fun successful pvp weapon set / play-style be left redundant. Especially seeing the Shiro changes with its evasion.

Just something I wanted to share since I’m surprised no one has thought that these changes to acro were to suit further intentions to what thief will be in HoT. Because really Acrobatics is on its own with what it is capable of, we have Crit and DA for burst. But acrobatics lacks synergy currently, with its overall movement control and different approach to sustainability. But these changes to acrobatics seemed too confidently placed by arena net to the point where i strongly believe we will see some very positive changes to thief in the upcoming patch.

New potential meta specialization traits for “dare devil” will most likely be Acro, Trick and spec trait-line in my view.

Synergies this
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guarded_Initiation
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swindler%27s_Equilibrium

Are you telling one line is lacking so I have to take another one to make up for it? I don’t remember them doing this for another class the line is supposed to be optional or will it be a “use it with Acro to succeed” kind of line?? I give you the benefit of the doubt though.

What’s their excuse for SA?

Sagat.3285:

Synergies this
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guarded_Initiation
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swindler%27s_Equilibrium

Are you telling one line is lacking so I have to take another one to make up for it? I don’t remember them doing this for another class the line is supposed optional or will it be a “use it with Acro to succeed” kind of line?? I give you the benefit of the doubt though.

What’s their excuse for SA?

I 100% agree with you, but I believe we won’t appreciate what Acrobatics is until we get to play it with the new specialization traits and overall change of role. And who knows perhaps it will be a very broad trait-line to compliment every other trait-line. This is purely speculation but I’m strongly for belief in this view.

And to be honest, acro isn’t in use AT ALL. Acro s/d is so rarely used and is pretty much the only weapon set that even uses acro effectively currently. SA is… well SA. Stealth play has been a huge part of thief throughout GW2 and specializations should give thief an entirely new image/play-style. Arena net are too creative to make another boring aggressive thief trait-line that ignores other potential thief capabilities. A new trait-line similar to acrobatics could open so many more doors. Dagger / Pistol combinations will be left for SA, Crit and DA. Sword and staff will be focused on heavily with the potential of the new theif spec in my opinion, and as for Trickery it will remain the globally used meta traitline. Or maybe i’m expecting too much from Arena net. I’ve made this mistake before.

Wait, if one line is weak, why would I take another line and it to maybe bring it up to par? If the new line is awesome, I’ll drop CS from my DA/CS/Tr build. Right now, replacing CS with Acro is a hindrance because it’s not a strong line on its own. Giving up 2 lines for the benefit of 1 makes no sense. If the new line is powerful enough to make up for the shortcomings of Acro, I’d rather pair it with our other strong lines. If it’s weak or designed poorly enough that it needs Acro to function properly, I’ll pass (aside from the fact that would kill build choices by making 2 necessary on top of the virtually mandatory trickery line).

Here’s another thing to think about. They literally called the S/D acro set “dodge spamming.”

Tldr: if the new line is strong, I’ll use it to supplement our other strong lines, not as a crutch for the weak ones.

Maugetarr.6823:

Wait, if one line is weak, why would I take another line and it to maybe bring it up to par? If the new line is awesome, I’ll drop CS from my DA/CS/Tr build. Right now, replacing CS with Acro is a hindrance because it’s not a strong line on its own. Giving up 2 lines for the benefit of 1 makes no sense. If the new line is powerful enough to make up for the shortcomings of Acro, I’d rather pair it with our other strong lines. If it’s weak or designed poorly enough that it needs Acro to function properly, I’ll pass (aside from the fact that would kill build choices by making 2 necessary on top of the virtually mandatory trickery line).

Here’s another thing to think about. They literally called the S/D acro set “dodge spamming.”

Tldr: if the new line is strong, I’ll use it to supplement our other strong lines, not as a crutch for the weak ones.

I don’t think it will literally be “take this with acro or there is no point to using this new shiny traitline”. But more-so of “hey, if you want to make a build around acro, take this traitline too for an effective build”. Hopefuly like Trickery the new traitline will also synergies greatly with all other trait-lines and improve the weak ones. This is more so my point. Because the changes in acro seem too strong to be just a nerf, that or arena net have no clue how to rebalance acrobatics.

If we don’t appreciate Acrobatics now, we won’t even consider it with Daredevil elite specs. That is the real source of the problem. Some players here believe that the reveal of the Daredevil will justify the nerf we succumbed to, other believe the new elite spec will FIX the broken core specialization lines. No way. It won’t happen.

Not everybody will rock Daredevil specs, so will this mean that Acro will completely suck for them? It is still not a fair assessment of things. Just like Sagat said, it’s all about synergy.

Cameron.6215:

Maugetarr.6823:

Wait, if one line is weak, why would I take another line and it to maybe bring it up to par? If the new line is awesome, I’ll drop CS from my DA/CS/Tr build. Right now, replacing CS with Acro is a hindrance because it’s not a strong line on its own. Giving up 2 lines for the benefit of 1 makes no sense. If the new line is powerful enough to make up for the shortcomings of Acro, I’d rather pair it with our other strong lines. If it’s weak or designed poorly enough that it needs Acro to function properly, I’ll pass (aside from the fact that would kill build choices by making 2 necessary on top of the virtually mandatory trickery line).

Here’s another thing to think about. They literally called the S/D acro set “dodge spamming.”

Tldr: if the new line is strong, I’ll use it to supplement our other strong lines, not as a crutch for the weak ones.

I don’t think it will literally be “take this with acro or there is no point to using this new shiny traitline”. But more-so of “hey, if you want to make a build around acro, take this traitline too for an effective build”. Hopefuly like Trickery the new traitline will also synergies greatly with all other trait-lines and improve the weak ones. This is more so my point.

But that’s my point. If it’s good on it’s own, I’ll pair it with the other good lines. If it’s not good without acrobatics I won’t use it. If this really would have made us too dodge heavy, it probably has good enough evasion traits to use in place of acrobatics. Really, the problem I have is that it’s not fine nerf one line to irrelevancy because we still have 4 other lines. Each line should be able to stand on its own and offer choice in playstyle. Acro does not stand on its own and will not stand on its own if it needs another line as a crutch.

Maugetarr.6823:

Cameron.6215:

Maugetarr.6823:

Wait, if one line is weak, why would I take another line and it to maybe bring it up to par? If the new line is awesome, I’ll drop CS from my DA/CS/Tr build. Right now, replacing CS with Acro is a hindrance because it’s not a strong line on its own. Giving up 2 lines for the benefit of 1 makes no sense. If the new line is powerful enough to make up for the shortcomings of Acro, I’d rather pair it with our other strong lines. If it’s weak or designed poorly enough that it needs Acro to function properly, I’ll pass (aside from the fact that would kill build choices by making 2 necessary on top of the virtually mandatory trickery line).

Here’s another thing to think about. They literally called the S/D acro set “dodge spamming.”

Tldr: if the new line is strong, I’ll use it to supplement our other strong lines, not as a crutch for the weak ones.

I don’t think it will literally be “take this with acro or there is no point to using this new shiny traitline”. But more-so of “hey, if you want to make a build around acro, take this traitline too for an effective build”. Hopefuly like Trickery the new traitline will also synergies greatly with all other trait-lines and improve the weak ones. This is more so my point.

But that’s my point. If it’s good on it’s own, I’ll pair it with the other good lines. If it’s not good without acrobatics I won’t use it. If this really would have made us too dodge heavy, it probably has good enough evasion traits to use in place of acrobatics. Really, the problem I have is that it’s not fine nerf one line to irrelevancy because we still have 4 other lines. Each line should be able to stand on its own and offer choice in playstyle. Acro does not stand on its own and will not stand on its own if it needs another line as a crutch.

That is very true indeed

Cameron.6215:

I 100% agree with you, but I believe we won’t appreciate what Acrobatics is until we get to play it with the new specialization traits and overall change of role. And who knows perhaps it will be a very broad trait-line to compliment every other trait-line. This is purely speculation but I’m strongly for belief in this view.

There’s a phrase for this. Its called the argument from ignorance. Your case is that, while acrobatics looks terrible, we can’t say it is terrible because we don’t know what the specialization will bring.

I don’t buy it. For all we know, the specialization will make things worse for Acro. Right now, acro is the worst trait line in the game. The defenses it offers pale in comparison to those in SA and Trickery, and it doesn’t offer meaningful utility on its own. I made a thread about this earlier.

It’s not acceptable to nerf a core defensive line just so that a new spec will be viable.

If acro isn’t a valid alternative to shadow arts, then it’s simply not a valid line.

I’m sure the new spec will have some cool stuff, but I can’t simply say it’s okay that acro sucks because it’ll synergize well with one new line.

Acro didn’t even work well before the nerf from a balance standpoint. Did it synergise well with S/D? Yeah. Was it useful when not using S/D? No.

The big problem is that out trait lines are designed differently than other classes. Most classes have “weapon lines” that are a combination of specific universal weapon buffs and utility traits. This allows those lines to be used effectively without their associated weapon.

Thief, however, has things designed around a more nebulous concept of “damage and defense styles” and doesn’t really have any core weapon lines.

On the one hand, this is good. Not feeling forced to take a specific line for a specific weapon is in line with how our weapon skills are designed (swapping is of lesser use for us, and our offhand choice is more impactful than that of other classes due to dual skills and init)

On the other hand, it means looking at balance from a different perspective.

Acro simply being good with sword and okay with everything else was always a problem. Weapon choice should never dictate trait choice for a class that is encouraged to use weapons situationally rather than on a firm rotation.

Acro needs, at minimum, the return of the old endurance refill mechanic, and a minor with a 25% base move speed increase to actually function as an alternative to SA. Past that, it needs to take a hard look at why SA is so useful. SA, in its purest form, is about straight buffs to stealth. It then follows that acro should be about straight buffs to dodge. yes, every class has some “blah happens on dodge” traits, but as thieves with a trait line literally called “Acrobatics” it follows that the trait line would naturally be about stacking several powerful defensive effects on to dodge, and simply allowing us to dodge more in stead of being loaded with tons of passive trigger traits.

I mean isn’t that what acrobatics is? It’s active defense by moving out of the way rather than armor, magical shielding, or modifying other properties of armor, devices, or skills right?

we ded still even with elite spec

I put my condi Mesmer in all dire the other day… It’s like 10x better than thief in wvw and spvp…

As you can see from the “potential” data mined skillset the concept of an evasive thief play-style has in fact been delegated to the new trait-line, and as I expected the drastic change in the acro traitline was made as a sustain trait-line to support/synergies a potential new thief sustain build. Pretty excited.

If the leaked skills are what we’re getting, then I see no reason to really take Acrobatics at all. They’ve essentially made an entire existing traitline obsolete, which is silly.

I’m still hellaciously offended by how bad Acrobatics got gutted.

Frankly, we should not have to paywall ourselves, just to get an acceptable evade/stealthless sustain setup. Which is precisely what you are doing, buying HoT on the hopes that the “Elite” spec will have such things. Frankly, the base Thief should have kept what it had, and then one could have built the Elite’s traitline to complement the pre-existing stealthless/heavy evade playstyle.

That’s just insane, especially when you consider that Thief’s main forms of defense have always been: Stealth, Mobility, and/or (depending on build) Blinds.

But, this is the kind of logic that is extant within a game company that nerfs Vigor and Endurance-refilling Traits because (in a game that is supposedly an “active” combat system!) folk were “dodging too much.”

Acro should at least have better condi removal and heal (Pain Response, Guarded initiation and Assassins Reward), even though it is mostly an active defensive traitline, it still pales in comparison to Shadow Arts; considering that has Shadow’s embrace and Rejuvenation, which are far more reliable.

Nope, they still need to change Acrobatics back, no matter what The new elite spec does.

oh come on people acrobatics isn’t as bad as you make it sound! IMO its better than critical strikes or deadly arts traitlines. But then again neither of those two traitlines fit with my playstyle. my point is even though acrobatics got nerfed it still has some good traits just like all the other traitlines it just depends on your play style

IF these datamined traits are indeed what we’re getting, then Acrobatics will be even more redundant.
Honestly, I’d have preffered to see Acro, or rather Feline Graces back in it’s former glory.
For Stealth gameplay you can alter between DA/CS/TR or DA/SA/TR. It’d be nothing but fair to have similar optionS (yes, options!) for stealthless gameplay. DA and CS are still your go-to offensive lines, but you’d have a pick between Acro and Daredevil(?) for your Defensive/utility lines.

It’s quite outrageous to nerf one traitline so hard, just so this new present gets an extra bit of flair to it.
So despite the fact that I’ll be really glad if we get back options for stealthless/bruiser type play, I’m very dissappointed in the way ANet has handled it.

spartan.9421:

oh come on people acrobatics isn’t as bad as you make it sound! IMO its better than critical strikes or deadly arts traitlines. But then again neither of those two traitlines fit with my playstyle. my point is even though acrobatics got nerfed it still has some good traits just like all the other traitlines it just depends on your play style

Preferred playstyles aside, Acrobatics is exactly as bad as people make it sound. There’s maybe one build (S/D) that should even consider MAYBE taking it, and even then it’s fine taking CS (the next least good tree) instead.

They hit the lowest with this line, no other class had the same treatment necro only had an ICD put on a niche trait I don’t know what wrong with him(them) at this point. Since today’s patch is focused on bugs hopefully the next one put SA and Acro back to their rightful place.

Very unlikely that they’ll suddenly decide to revise whole traitlines in the middle of developing the expansion, no matter how needed it may be. I’ve heard talk of another big trait focused patch shortly before expansion release… if true, that’s our only hope for much needed core changes anytime soon.

Sagat.3285:

They hit the lowest with this line, no other class had the same treatment necro only had an ICD put on a niche trait I don’t know what wrong with him(them) at this point. Since today’s patch is focused on bugs hopefully the next one put SA and Acro back to their rightful place.

Not going to happen with endurance now raised to 3 bars and flat endurance gain all over the place.

Acro still has issues with Assassins Reward, Upper hand and Guarded Intuition being boarderline useless but the line looks much better now with Daredevil (that name will take some getting used to) being the way it is.

Ragion.2831:

Sagat.3285:

They hit the lowest with this line, no other class had the same treatment necro only had an ICD put on a niche trait I don’t know what wrong with him(them) at this point. Since today’s patch is focused on bugs hopefully the next one put SA and Acro back to their rightful place.

Not going to happen with endurance now raised to 3 bars and flat endurance gain all over the place.

Acro still has issues with Assassins Reward, Upper hand and Guarded Intuition being boarderline useless but the line looks much better now with Daredevil (that name will take some getting used to) being the way it is.

Yes they implemented it with such greatness and SA nerf also become totally justified. /sarcasm

Unless they buff Acrobatics in some meaningful ways, D/P builds will continue to skip it; the other lines simply offer too much in comparison. Acro will probably see some play with S/D, though.