Guild Wars 2

I took a brake after the Dec. 10th patch and came back yesterday.
Went immediately into sPvP and 1v1 arenas.

I noticed that most high ranked thieves are going 30 points into Trickery wile using S/D, S/P and even D/P…

I miss to see were this trait-line would be helpful for such weapon sets… what am I missing here?

Why place 30 points in trickery instead of Shadow Arts or Acrobatics or even Critical arts?

super steal and ini gain, that’s all

thief survival is a joke anyway, no SA in the world will save you from mindless aoe/cc spam in pvp atm

I still don’t see the need to spend 30 in trickery… I’ll give it a try when i get home but…
SA will give us access to condi remove on stealth and i don’t feel very comfortable with allot of boons since Necros are part of every team and Corrupt Boons will counter Trickery and Lyssa runes easily.

Sleight of Hand is an excellent trait. You can interrupt people through stability for clutch stomp/revive interrupts. Plus thrill of the crime and bountiful theft are excellent team support traits.

~2k heal, ~2k dmg, Fury, Swiftness, Might, 2 Boons stolen, Vigor, Interrupt, 2 Ini and a Shadowstep on a 21sec CD. Not to mention you have the stolen abilitys on a 21 sec CD aswell which means 50% uptime of almost all boons against mesmer for example.

Also +3 base ini from the Trickery line.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

~2k heal, ~2k dmg, Fury, Swiftness, Might, 2 Boons stolen, Vigor, Interrupt, 2 Ini and a Shadowstep on a 21sec CD. Not to mention you have the stolen abilitys on a 21 sec CD aswell which means 50% uptime of almost all boons against mesmer for example.

Also +3 base ini from the Trickery line.

so basically were spending 30 trait points to improve 1 single ability F1 but at what cost?
Most ppl i have seen are running with 10/30/0/0/30

If you sacrifice acrobatics you lose HP, extra dodges not to mention the traits that you may take. SH you sacrifice more stealth time, condition removal, might on stealth, blind on stealth and so on.

Is it really worth it? how do you deal with condi necros that constantly transform your boons in conditions?

I’m not saying its bad, far from it I’m just trying to understand why is it so much better that acro and SA and what changed on Dec. 10th patch to make it viable compared to pre patch.

Volrath.1473:

I still don’t see the need to spend 30 in trickery… I’ll give it a try when i get home but…
SA will give us access to condi remove on stealth and i don’t feel very comfortable with allot of boons since Necros are part of every team and Corrupt Boons will counter Trickery and Lyssa runes easily.

You must not PvP at all. Necros are still a joke in PvP, while they’re OP due to Dire gear in WvW. No sane team would take a necro when an Engie can do it better with better mobility and sustain.

then how do you deal with all the conditions? Lyssa? Inf. Return on Sword MH?
what if your D/P or D/D?

Me discussing why my S/D build takes 30 Trix instead of 30 CS to somebody…

Arganthium.5638:

The damage stat loss from 30 into Trix is offset by five facts: first, that you’re getting more initiative, and thus will be able to attack more often and be more flexible (and, by the way, you’re also getting more damage because of Lead Attacks). Second, you’re getting more sustain from Assassin’s Reward by being able to burn up more initiative. Third, the ability to swap to a Shortbow while still maintaining the same amount if not more initiative than Jumper’s build (and certainly more than Nag Nag’s) allows the build more versatility than the two most prominent thief builds have. Fourth, By investing so much into Trickery, you’re getting higher recharge on Steal, which is useful not only because you get so much utility from steal itself (four boons- three automatically, four if you hit- healing, damage, poison, double boon steal, and of course whatever item you stole), but also because Steal gives you more mobility, which, in a mobility-based build, could mean everything. Finally, all of the traits that you get in Trix are good. In CS, you get one good minor (First Strikes), one good major (Executioner), and a bunch of mediocre or bad majors and minors for the rest of your traits (especially considering that nowadays Opportunist is so awful). That’s what differentiates 30 into Trix from 30 into DS for a Necro- I do get more damage and sustain, but I also get a lot, lot more for what I invest as well. I’m not saying that my build must, by necessity, be better, but that’s the theory behind 30 into Trix- not to mention the absolutely abhorrent bonus damage you get from 300 precision and 30% crit damage…

Cause high level thiefs are playing tourney builds not dueling builds (even to practice their 1on1)

/thread

Edit: maybe it’s unclear but roamers don’t need sustain, if they fight for a long time it’s just with shortbow

Volrath.1473:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

~2k heal, ~2k dmg, Fury, Swiftness, Might, 2 Boons stolen, Vigor, Interrupt, 2 Ini and a Shadowstep on a 21sec CD. Not to mention you have the stolen abilitys on a 21 sec CD aswell which means 50% uptime of almost all boons against mesmer for example.

Also +3 base ini from the Trickery line.

so basically were spending 30 trait points to improve 1 single ability F1 but at what cost?
Most ppl i have seen are running with 10/30/0/0/30

If you sacrifice acrobatics you lose HP, extra dodges not to mention the traits that you may take. SH you sacrifice more stealth time, condition removal, might on stealth, blind on stealth and so on.

Is it really worth it? how do you deal with condi necros that constantly transform your boons in conditions?

I’m not saying its bad, far from it I’m just trying to understand why is it so much better that acro and SA and what changed on Dec. 10th patch to make it viable compared to pre patch.

Yes you are basicly spending 30 points to improve Steal but its worth it.

10 30 0 0 30 D/P is not a dueling spec, it’s a tournament build. You’re not supposed to duel as a thief (unless u know for sure u can drop the enemy, and can do it quick). You’re supposed to support via Shortbow and burst low targets which you can do more often (burst rotation every 21 seconds) + more reliably (because u strip protection for example). Or decap unprotected nodes quickly because you’re very mobile with the shortbow. You can also interrupt stomps or res better with bount because you can strip stab.

Volrath.1473:

I took a brake after the Dec. 10th patch and came back yesterday.
Went immediately into sPvP and 1v1 arenas.

I noticed that most high ranked thieves are going 30 points into Trickery wile using S/D, S/P and even D/P…

I miss to see were this trait-line would be helpful for such weapon sets… what am I missing here?

Why place 30 points in trickery instead of Shadow Arts or Acrobatics or even Critical arts?

Well, steal is pretty weak by itself, trickery makes it much more usable. And since shadow arts isn’t viable in spvp ppl take it.

Arganthium.5638:

Me discussing why my S/D build takes 30 Trix instead of 30 CS to somebody…

Arganthium.5638:

The damage stat loss from 30 into Trix is offset by five facts: first, that you’re getting more initiative, and thus will be able to attack more often and be more flexible (and, by the way, you’re also getting more damage because of Lead Attacks). Second, you’re getting more sustain from Assassin’s Reward by being able to burn up more initiative. Third, the ability to swap to a Shortbow while still maintaining the same amount if not more initiative than Jumper’s build (and certainly more than Nag Nag’s) allows the build more versatility than the two most prominent thief builds have. Fourth, By investing so much into Trickery, you’re getting higher recharge on Steal, which is useful not only because you get so much utility from steal itself (four boons- three automatically, four if you hit- healing, damage, poison, double boon steal, and of course whatever item you stole), but also because Steal gives you more mobility, which, in a mobility-based build, could mean everything. Finally, all of the traits that you get in Trix are good. In CS, you get one good minor (First Strikes), one good major (Executioner), and a bunch of mediocre or bad majors and minors for the rest of your traits (especially considering that nowadays Opportunist is so awful). That’s what differentiates 30 into Trix from 30 into DS for a Necro- I do get more damage and sustain, but I also get a lot, lot more for what I invest as well. I’m not saying that my build must, by necessity, be better, but that’s the theory behind 30 into Trix- not to mention the absolutely abhorrent bonus damage you get from 300 precision and 30% crit damage…

Just dropping it here.

Since new minimap change showing enemies, Shadow refuge is basically a wasted sloth: you really have very short time to use it as a team spike ( unless the opposite team is completely dumb) and as a rezz tool has always been relatively ineffective.

I think current best build is a S/P 10-30-0-0-30 with soldier/zerk jewel and lyssa runes, with shadow step and agility/infiltrator signet, with fury uptime as high as possible and increased crit chance.

That way you can deal with pressure and damage without being completely shot by a couple of attcks, can stay on the field, and you have 30-37%+ crit chance by default and nearly 90% fury uptime thanks to 2 traits ( thrill of the crime and furious retaliation).

It’s a very strong build, sadly not as strong as current cheese spam build ( at least to carry noobs in solo q), but undoubtly top tier.

regarding your math:

Your math is wrong, at least in lyssa builds, regarding sword ( or rather slow moving weapons) and thief in general, tough it’s right in most other cases and professions ( war is a clear example)

Above 55% crit trashold, investing in precision is a better choice if you have at least 50% crit damage.

Zerk ammu/jewel + 30 crit strikes brings you to 1,5 crit multiplier, so your build will be optimized if you increase precision the most ( signet+lyssa) instead of going pure damage multiplier like lead attacks.

Moreover trick stat gain, aside its good traits and steal recharge, or rather condi damage, is completely useless on most power thief builds ( unlike mesmers).

There should be a chart about stats min-maxing somewhere.

Even with fast weapons ( dagger) we suffer of the same problem: our main damage sources are tied to autochain ( first attacks being very weak) and HS, being tied to your opponent health and its ability to keep it high enough, rather than simple math and damage: in other words, the only way to gain the most from dagger and your build would be to use the only ability with an high damage coefficient and no different damage scaling ( unlike HS), or rather spamming shadow shot ( which is too much ini intensive).

Basically your math is right with all classes aside thief ( lol), and hybrid wars/guards/rangers are a clear example.

Sadly this is not possible with the thief mostly due to how our weapons are designed, and mostly due to the fact that it’s so easy to go CS and go over the needed trashold for crit damage and precision.

Infact lyssa runes are a bad dps loss for mesmer and burst thieves, mostly due to dagger being badly designed for sustained damage and mostly because mesmers barely reach the needed precision amount without reaching the needed crit multiplier, so they would be better off with power runes.

@Mrbig: if you’re going to tell me my my his wrong, you sure as hell better have the evidence to back it up. Ironically, the person I was speaking to in the thread from which my quote was borrowed also tried to say that my math was wrong, linking me to some guy named Arcturus who had come up with a different conclusion than I had. I refuted his methods through some basic facts.

And if you’re going to doubt the usefulness of Trix in my build, go do some research into the build and then tell me what you think.

Arganthium.5638:

@Mrbig: if you’re going to tell me my my his wrong, you sure as hell better have the evidence to back it up. Ironically, the person I was speaking to in the thread from which my quote was borrowed also tried to say that my math was wrong, linking me to some guy named Arcturus who had come up with a different conclusion than I had. I refuted his methods through some basic facts.

And if you’re going to doubt the usefulness of Trix in my build, go do some research into the build and then tell me what you think.

Why would cereal help you in the first place? No I’m doubting you Argy….

Iv ran 30 in trickery pre and post dec 10th patch the line is awesome. And with nearly every build except p/d. Having a 21 1/4 sec stun (instant too) can really turn tides specially stomp denials or heals. Bountifull theft alone i feel better protects you then the SA line will all together. I can keep a nice array of protection/regen/ect by timing my steals on my enemy as opposed to being invisible for a bit while they just aoe me to death. And with the ini gain accross the board, who cares about regen its all about just having more ini all together. A year ago when i made my thief i fell in love with that line and never looked back. As a d/d too the stun on sleight of hand wont break stealth, so you can CnD → Steal (applying 1 sec daze) →Backstab and auto chain before they can do much but maybe dodge once.

Why trickery? cuz we’re thieves and we need tricks.

Volrath.1473:

I still don’t see the need to spend 30 in trickery… I’ll give it a try when i get home but…
SA will give us access to condi remove on stealth and i don’t feel very comfortable with allot of boons since Necros are part of every team and Corrupt Boons will counter Trickery and Lyssa runes easily.

You must not spvp very often. For D/P, SA-line builds are weak in spvp for a couple of big reasons: they can’t contest points, the fights usually last too long, and (most importantly) they are incredibly selfish builds. The amount of team support you get from 30 trickery is insane. 10/30/0/0/30 is not a hs spam through blackpowder build like an SA build can be, but you shouldn’t (and don’t) need to do that on any thief build to survive.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB has been the meta for burst Thief for months now, I’m not sure why you are under the impression that is is only since the 10th Dec patch.

I’m a unique butterfly with 10/0/15/15/30. 30 into trickery is for a number of reasons. Extra initiative always helps stay on top of your defence/offence trade offs, the insta-cast daze can interrupt healing skills which is always good in pvp, steal 2 boons and gain vigor, a really good trio for thieves to have.

I wish it didn’t have condition damage in trickery but hey, not all things work out perfectly.

I really don’t think that SA is that good of a trait line for D/P anymore since the ini on stealth doesn’t proc when you’re already stealthed anymore. SA is still very good for D/D builds since it gives the blind on stealth that allows D/D to stomp and survive toe – to – toe decently, but the high reliance on stealth does make it tough to keep points contested.

In the end, SA is really a talent tree that’s best focused towards WvW roaming nowadays.

I used to play 10/30/0/0/30 – S/D + SB

Main reason is that it reduced steals cooldown significantly, and allowed me to chain dazes nicely, also it allowed me to destroy 2 boons on my enemy (since the share is crap), granted me and my teammates vigor, fury and swiftness. On top of that I could get both mug and +3 initiative while maintaining high damage. The build needed high situational awareness and good reflexes.

I’d play this one if I got more interested in S/P, but after the nerf to IS not sure about playing it on S/D.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Arganthium.5638:

@Mrbig: if you’re going to tell me my my his wrong, you sure as hell better have the evidence to back it up. Ironically, the person I was speaking to in the thread from which my quote was borrowed also tried to say that my math was wrong, linking me to some guy named Arcturus who had come up with a different conclusion than I had. I refuted his methods through some basic facts.

And if you’re going to doubt the usefulness of Trix in my build, go do some research into the build and then tell me what you think.

Why would cereal help you in the first place? No I’m doubting you Argy….

Oh okay ; _ ; y’know, those little kids are such kittens… I feel persecuted for my taste in cereal. q.q

Arganthium.5638:

@Mrbig: if you’re going to tell me my my his wrong, you sure as hell better have the evidence to back it up. Ironically, the person I was speaking to in the thread from which my quote was borrowed also tried to say that my math was wrong, linking me to some guy named Arcturus who had come up with a different conclusion than I had. I refuted his methods through some basic facts.

And if you’re going to doubt the usefulness of Trix in my build, go do some research into the build and then tell me what you think.

tbh I’m not saying your math is wrong, neither I’m questioning trickery usefulness.

I’m just saying that your math is right EXCEPT for thieves, mostly because, thanks to CS having both precision and crit damage, making it easy for thieves to go beyond the needed trashold for max dps.

in all otber situations, it woukd be better to avoid precision OR crit damage traitlines (according to the build), favouring strong traitlines (med guardians best dps would, for example, come with increased power rather than increased precision, mostly because it would be too hard of an investment in trait points to go beyond the precision trashold, unless they play 1h weps only).

thief strange nature allows for easier min-maxing, to a point where adding sustain is not necessary, since you effectively lose tons of damage altough gaining good sustain (tbe point is that it’s not really needed, you already hqve good sustain o sword builds).

it’s not that 10-0-0-30-30 is not a good build, it’s just that 10-30-0-0-30 is stronger, without losing that much sustain/versatility.

since minimap change, shadow refuge really lost its purpose, so if you’re brave enough to remove it and go for double signet+shadowstep, you can even slot soldier ammy and zerk jewel and hqve basically the same damage output of a standard glass sword build with increased armor.

I play it with S/P and I really feel it’s the best possible thief build out there: you can seriously win any 1vs1, sad part is the set’s still too slow to solo skilled bunker guardians ( I had a 1vs1 with Tage at Raven which lasted about the full match, with the point contested the whole time)

Mrbig.8019:

Arganthium.5638:

@Mrbig: if you’re going to tell me my my his wrong, you sure as hell better have the evidence to back it up. Ironically, the person I was speaking to in the thread from which my quote was borrowed also tried to say that my math was wrong, linking me to some guy named Arcturus who had come up with a different conclusion than I had. I refuted his methods through some basic facts.

And if you’re going to doubt the usefulness of Trix in my build, go do some research into the build and then tell me what you think.

tbh I’m not saying your math is wrong, neither I’m questioning trickery usefulness.

I’m just saying that your math is right EXCEPT for thieves, mostly because, thanks to CS having both precision and crit damage, making it easy for thieves to go beyond the needed trashold for max dps.

in all otber situations, it woukd be better to avoid precision OR crit damage traitlines (according to the build), favouring strong traitlines (med guardians best dps would, for example, come with increased power rather than increased precision, mostly because it would be too hard of an investment in trait points to go beyond the precision trashold, unless they play 1h weps only).

thief strange nature allows for easier min-maxing, to a point where adding sustain is not necessary, since you effectively lose tons of damage altough gaining good sustain (tbe point is that it’s not really needed, you already hqve good sustain o sword builds).

it’s not that 10-0-0-30-30 is not a good build, it’s just that 10-30-0-0-30 is stronger, without losing that much sustain/versatility.

since minimap change, shadow refuge really lost its purpose, so if you’re brave enough to remove it and go for double signet+shadowstep, you can even slot soldier ammy and zerk jewel and hqve basically the same damage output of a standard glass sword build with increased armor.

I play it with S/P and I really feel it’s the best possible thief build out there: you can seriously win any 1vs1, sad part is the set’s still too slow to solo skilled bunker guardians ( I had a 1vs1 with Tage at Raven which lasted about the full match, with the point contested the whole time)

The math that applies to other classes applies equally to thieves. It’s not like thieves have some alternate damage formula that other classes don’t.

There is no “threshold for max DPS”; you can’t max out DPS, by definition, unless you set the limits as the perfectly optimal mix of precision, crit damage, and power, and you cannot get any more of any of the three stats. Thus, your definition must be faulty because it assumes that you still can get more offensive stats.

My calculations do in fact take account for the fact that 30 CS includes both precision and critical damage. And, statwise, 30 CS only buffs damage by very slightly more than 10 DA.

10/30/0/0/30 loses 3000 health and 30% boon duration, but more importantly, it loses Feline Grace (fewer evades), Vigorous Recovery (vigor on heal is extremely powerful), a small but not negligible amount of swiftness useful for going between points, Fluid Strikes (an extremely good damage buff), and Quick Recovery, Quick Pockets, Pain Response, and/or Assassin’s Reward, four traits that range from being at least good to awesome (not a big fan of PR but many, many other thieves like it). There’s a reason why you don’t see an S/D build without 30 into Acro, whether it’s my build, Jumper’s build, or Nag Nag’s build. Without 30 in Acro, you lose tons of benefits that you could get for being a non-stealth build, and to say that you don’t lose that much flexibility is a huge, huge misunderstanding.

If you’re still running soldier ammie on thief (not necessarily jewel though) then you’re just an underpowered warrior, nothing else to it. Go reroll. Shadow Refuge is still excellent, and if you think that not running 30 CS means that you have a huge damage rebuff but not running zerker ammie doesn’t reduce your damage much or gives you equal damage to what you’d get with soldier ammie, then- honestly, you’re just wrong. It’s just that simple.

You run S/P? That’s cute.

Trickery makes the kitten Fizzle, the whole crit trait line sucks. The simple reason is that trickery lets you do more utility stuff more often and opens up new options for skill combinations which you also can use more often. This leeds to more creative gameplay potential which will allow you to do more “amazing stunts”more often.
The CS traitline is basically one big passive damage increase that adds nothing new to your gameplay.
Both obviously appeal to a different kind of player mindset…

Mhh, trickery runs mostly on one skill to provide a bunch of boons, to put it in very briefly, not much difference there.

Your options against boons are limited, trickery aids that.

mhh, 2 boons every 20 seconds, might as well run sigil of nullification, yet I never see anyone suggest using that.

Since a lot of thieves probably don’t know: While stealthed if you start a backstab motion and steal before it finishes you’ll proc mug and fury and rip boons and teleport to your opponent before backstab connects. Starting the backstab animation before stealing allows you to use it when otherwise the damage from mug would cause revealed. 10/30/0/0/30 just makes sense for d/p and s/p. I hear some people using it with s/d but honestly I’d only use 10/30/0/30/0 with s/d. Trickery is amazing though. Stunning a warrior with stability is amazing, it makes steal almost another stunbreak since you can counter daze anyone who stuns you.

last night i tried 10/30/0/0/30 S/P + SB with zerker amulet and lyssa runes, was successful with it to some degree but had lots of trouble with heavy condi build professions…

you ether run withdraw with lyssa runes, or hide in shadows + shadowstep and your rune choices open up volrath. Some people stick with lyssa, others move on to ogres.

The main reason is for Bountiful Theft which REALLY needs a nerf. Most people dont know Bountiful Theft has a priority list that it uses when you steal boons. This means it will ALWAYS steal stability and aegis if they are on the target. The steal happens before the daze so no matter what you get a 1s daze no matter how many boons the enemy has.

Ozie.4176:

The main reason is for Bountiful Theft which REALLY needs a nerf. Most people dont know Bountiful Theft has a priority list that it uses when you steal boons. This means it will ALWAYS steal stability and aegis if they are on the target. The steal happens before the daze so no matter what you get a 1s daze no matter how many boons the enemy has.

The daze is extremely short anyways, and is only good as pretty much the game’s only counter to stability stomping (outside of just trying to do lots of damage or trying to move away with, for example, Thief down state #2). Aegis is a pretty crappy boon, especially when you just get it thrown onto you. And it’s difficult to steal might, and even when you do, it only converts into one stack of might on yourself.

Arganthium.5638:

Ozie.4176:

The main reason is for Bountiful Theft which REALLY needs a nerf. Most people dont know Bountiful Theft has a priority list that it uses when you steal boons. This means it will ALWAYS steal stability and aegis if they are on the target. The steal happens before the daze so no matter what you get a 1s daze no matter how many boons the enemy has.

The daze is extremely short anyways, and is only good as pretty much the game’s only counter to stability stomping (outside of just trying to do lots of damage or trying to move away with, for example, Thief down state #2). Aegis is a pretty crappy boon, especially when you just get it thrown onto you. And it’s difficult to steal might, and even when you do, it only converts into one stack of might on yourself.

Bountiful Theft is the only way to stop a lyssa stomp becuase Corrupt Boon will never corrupt stab if the enemy has more than 5 boons. Lyssa is a very popular rune set so that makes Bountiful Theft even more popular

Arganthium.5638:

The daze is extremely short anyways, and is only good as pretty much the game’s only counter to stability stomping (outside of just trying to do lots of damage or trying to move away with, for example, Thief down state #2).

In other words, the Daze isn’t useful if you have no idea what you’re doing, but you could say that for a lot of other skills.

In reality, attaching a guaranteed interrupt to something you can do whenever, instantly, is actually kind of ridiculous. There’s no counterplay for it, and the interrupt puts the skill on a significant CD. Even if you don’t score the interrupt, a 1 second Daze is nothing to scoff at, and puts you in an advantageous position if you have the ability to follow-up with another control effect when it wears off.

Aegis is a pretty crappy boon, especially when you just get it thrown onto you.

Crappy compared to ascension to godhood perhaps, but compared to other boon strip options it’s a pretty good one, since that’s one fewer thing that can stuff your next attack. I’ll take an Aegis any day; doesn’t protect you from multi-hits, but it’s just as frustrating on a Thief as it is anyone else.

Interceptor, you forgot the lack of control thief gets over most professions. Dancing in stealth in spvp doesn’t get you far, you can’t cap in stealth and you cannot deal direct damage in it like mesmers, its only there to throw off the enemy so you can plan the next attack or to recover. Scorpion wire is rather buggy, and often doesn’t pull the entire distance, as much as I like using it the bug is almost too much to want to deal with sometimes. Headshot is short lasting like sleight of hand, and a projectile which can be blocked or reflected, w/e. Sword stealth attack is not all that great aside from interrupting stomps but you have to be set up for that it isn’t always soo sweet.

SO, as far as what thief has to work with all the time (didn’t include stolen skills that cc), sleight of hand hardly makes up for it. It’s got a lot of uses that can really change the fight but keep in mind its a 30 point investment into a trait line that grants steal recharge rate and condition damage. Compared to warrior stun skills or even guardian walls/rings, it isn’t the most incredible thing. Also skills that block (not aegis) still avoid sleight of hand, like shelter as does evading, blind, invulnerability, etc. Its a great trait but it isn’t OP in anyway when you look at the profession who is using it (Severely overrated).

NinjaEd.3946:

Interceptor, you forgot […]

I forgot nothing. Don’t address me if you’re not going to address my post. All I did was point out that Arganthium’s statement:

“The daze is extremely short anyways, and is only good as pretty much the game’s only counter to stability stomping […]”

… was nonsense. I’m not advocating 30 Trickery for sPvP, just setting the record straight on Sleight of Hand (and its interaction with Bountiful Theft). Fin. Argue with someone else about optimal builds, please.

What is the cookie cutter rotation on sword pistol? Just trying this out after reading this thread.

Skinnie.4825:

What is the cookie cutter rotation on sword pistol? Just trying this out after reading this thread.

The thing about S/P is it’s extremely situational, meaning you use your skills based on what’s happening in the now rather than mindlessly using a set rotation every time you enter a fight like D/D or D/P.
If you need to interrupt a cast, use Head Shot. If you need to prevent someone from moving but still damage them (ala running warriors) use Pistol Whip. If you need to chase/prep a position swap, use Infiltrator’s Strike. Sword autoattack in general is pretty strong, able to maintain permanent crippled and weakness, making it extremely powerful against burst. While sword 2 does have condition removal, it’s only enough to counter light condition classes, such as bleed thieves, spirit rangers, guardians, warriors and elementalists. If you want to counter necros, mesmers, and engineers, you’ll need to pack more condition removal in traits, runes, and utilities.

I hope I’ve helped. S/P has an extremely high skill floor, which is why it’s undesirable to many thieves as compared to D/D and D/P which have relatively low skill floors. I wouldn’t recommend it to you unless you’re adept at identifying the mechanics and skills of enemy classes and know what to interrupt and what you can and can’t counter. With S/P, it’s life or death to know your limitations. You have little to no access to stealth, so don’t try any 1v10’s with it. When you’re skilled enough, you’ll be able to identify which classes to rip boons from via steal to aid in your 1v4’s and such, but those fights are extremely difficult without the crutch of stealth (however still possible with enough talent).

As for a build, I’ll give you mine:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmSO3dS6E/5Eh3jyOWzqVgmdP4q81KA-j0DBYfREREgaAiWGgQAM5pIaslhFRjVNDRVLoqkYaXQ6XwmeQ2eAGfLrWKAsFGB-w

Feel free to swap the Traveler runes out for Perplexity. You might not have a ton of condition damage, but confusion will always be of aid and prevent your enemy from spamming their rotations without killing themselves. I have a secondary set with perplexity for this reason, but because of the cost of traveler I’m partial to not replace them with the much cheaper runes set. You can upkeep 100% swiftness during combat with vigor and dodges.

^ I’ve been experimenting with a x/x/x/30/30 build on S/P since you mentioned it in another thread, +1 to what you’ve said here. I run Lyssa runes, though: excellent synergy on Withdraw, and the #6 slot ability helps with condition-bombers and other various things.

Yep very helpful thx jorun

Viking Jorun.5413:

Skinnie.4825:

What is the cookie cutter rotation on sword pistol? Just trying this out after reading this thread.

The thing about S/P is it’s extremely situational, meaning you use your skills based on what’s happening in the now rather than mindlessly using a set rotation every time you enter a fight like D/D or D/P.
If you need to interrupt a cast, use Head Shot. If you need to prevent someone from moving but still damage them (ala running warriors) use Pistol Whip. If you need to chase/prep a position swap, use Infiltrator’s Strike. Sword autoattack in general is pretty strong, able to maintain permanent crippled and weakness, making it extremely powerful against burst. While sword 2 does have condition removal, it’s only enough to counter light condition classes, such as bleed thieves, spirit rangers, guardians, warriors and elementalists. If you want to counter necros, mesmers, and engineers, you’ll need to pack more condition removal in traits, runes, and utilities.

I hope I’ve helped. S/P has an extremely high skill floor, which is why it’s undesirable to many thieves as compared to D/D and D/P which have relatively low skill floors. I wouldn’t recommend it to you unless you’re adept at identifying the mechanics and skills of enemy classes and know what to interrupt and what you can and can’t counter. With S/P, it’s life or death to know your limitations. You have little to no access to stealth, so don’t try any 1v10’s with it. When you’re skilled enough, you’ll be able to identify which classes to rip boons from via steal to aid in your 1v4’s and such, but those fights are extremely difficult without the crutch of stealth (however still possible with enough talent).

As for a build, I’ll give you mine:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmSO3dS6E/5Eh3jyOWzqVgmdP4q81KA-j0DBYfREREgaAiWGgQAM5pIaslhFRjVNDRVLoqkYaXQ6XwmeQ2eAGfLrWKAsFGB-w

Feel free to swap the Traveler runes out for Perplexity. You might not have a ton of condition damage, but confusion will always be of aid and prevent your enemy from spamming their rotations without killing themselves. I have a secondary set with perplexity for this reason, but because of the cost of traveler I’m partial to not replace them with the much cheaper runes set. You can upkeep 100% swiftness during combat with vigor and dodges.

Range increase on Steal? Why?

Here’s a suggestion:

Drop the range on steal, get Fury, Might & Swiftness on steal trait. This allows you to drop Traveler and get Lyssa instead because you can maintain perma swiftness with that trait setup (out of combat aswell). You get access to stab + a full con cleanse every 45 secs and more damage + mobility because of swiftness and fury uptime.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Skinnie.4825:

What is the cookie cutter rotation on sword pistol? Just trying this out after reading this thread.

The thing about S/P is it’s extremely situational, meaning you use your skills based on what’s happening in the now rather than mindlessly using a set rotation every time you enter a fight like D/D or D/P.
If you need to interrupt a cast, use Head Shot. If you need to prevent someone from moving but still damage them (ala running warriors) use Pistol Whip. If you need to chase/prep a position swap, use Infiltrator’s Strike. Sword autoattack in general is pretty strong, able to maintain permanent crippled and weakness, making it extremely powerful against burst. While sword 2 does have condition removal, it’s only enough to counter light condition classes, such as bleed thieves, spirit rangers, guardians, warriors and elementalists. If you want to counter necros, mesmers, and engineers, you’ll need to pack more condition removal in traits, runes, and utilities.

I hope I’ve helped. S/P has an extremely high skill floor, which is why it’s undesirable to many thieves as compared to D/D and D/P which have relatively low skill floors. I wouldn’t recommend it to you unless you’re adept at identifying the mechanics and skills of enemy classes and know what to interrupt and what you can and can’t counter. With S/P, it’s life or death to know your limitations. You have little to no access to stealth, so don’t try any 1v10’s with it. When you’re skilled enough, you’ll be able to identify which classes to rip boons from via steal to aid in your 1v4’s and such, but those fights are extremely difficult without the crutch of stealth (however still possible with enough talent).

As for a build, I’ll give you mine:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmSO3dS6E/5Eh3jyOWzqVgmdP4q81KA-j0DBYfREREgaAiWGgQAM5pIaslhFRjVNDRVLoqkYaXQ6XwmeQ2eAGfLrWKAsFGB-w

Feel free to swap the Traveler runes out for Perplexity. You might not have a ton of condition damage, but confusion will always be of aid and prevent your enemy from spamming their rotations without killing themselves. I have a secondary set with perplexity for this reason, but because of the cost of traveler I’m partial to not replace them with the much cheaper runes set. You can upkeep 100% swiftness during combat with vigor and dodges.

Range increase on Steal? Why?

Here’s a suggestion:

Drop the range on steal, get Fury, Might & Swiftness on steal trait. This allows you to drop Traveler and get Lyssa instead because you can maintain perma swiftness with that trait setup (out of combat aswell). You get access to stab + a full con cleanse every 45 secs and more damage + mobility because of swiftness and fury uptime.

I already have perma swiftness with my boon duration and Acrobatics 5. I increased the range because this is a WvW chasing build, not an sPvP point build, where enemies can only go so far. My PvP variant includes Fury, Might and Swiftness and does incorporate Lyssa runes. I’ve spent months delicately tweaking the build and I’m quite satisfied as is, and the December 10th patch only did it justice with increased initiative regen and pistol whip’s after cast buff. The fury isn’t missed due to already having 42% crit chance, and I don’t focus on might stacking to maintain cleave (although I do in my sPvP variant).

I’d like to see that pvp build Jorun. I find it extremely hard to kill any bunker without 30 CS…

kekuso.5837:

I’d like to see that pvp build Jorun. I find it extremely hard to kill any bunker without 30 CS…

I can kill bunkers in sPvP easily with 10/0/0/30/30. The damage boost you get from zerker amulet is much, much higher than what you get from CS. CS just ends up being more like a tiny bonus.

Arganthium.5638:

kekuso.5837:

I’d like to see that pvp build Jorun. I find it extremely hard to kill any bunker without 30 CS…

I can kill bunkers in sPvP easily with 10/0/0/30/30. The damage boost you get from zerker amulet is much, much higher than what you get from CS. CS just ends up being more like a tiny bonus.

I’m not sure if this is serious, anyone can kill a bunker, a bunkers role is not to live forever 1v1, its role is to stay alive until someone else shows up. Furthermore 20% damage from JUST executioner is not “just a bonus”. Also, having zerker gear and CS are not mutually exclusive, most people run both. Literally nothing in this post made any sense what so ever.

kekuso.5837:

I’d like to see that pvp build Jorun. I find it extremely hard to kill any bunker without 30 CS…

Unfortunately it does use 30 in CS. Right now Assassin’s Reward doesn’t have a place in tPvP, and I’m only swapping to SB for kiting and team fights for quick access to poison fields, so the other Grandmaster in Acro isn’t worth taking. I posted this on the forums about two months ago with no responses, hopefully you’ll find some good use out of it. I’ve been running it as a Bruiser-type roamer for tPvP and haven’t lost a match in weeks:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmCOncS6E/5Ex2DfKUe69gsj1saFoJA-TsAA1CoIKSVkrITRyisFNsY9xkAA

Ozie.4176:

Arganthium.5638:

kekuso.5837:

I’d like to see that pvp build Jorun. I find it extremely hard to kill any bunker without 30 CS…

I can kill bunkers in sPvP easily with 10/0/0/30/30. The damage boost you get from zerker amulet is much, much higher than what you get from CS. CS just ends up being more like a tiny bonus.

I’m not sure if this is serious, anyone can kill a bunker, a bunkers role is not to live forever 1v1, its role is to stay alive until someone else shows up. Furthermore 20% damage from JUST executioner is not “just a bonus”. Also, having zerker gear and CS are not mutually exclusive, most people run both. Literally nothing in this post made any sense what so ever.

If you mean your own post, sure.

I said “kill bunkers easily”, as in “I can kill bunkers in the same amount of time that a 30 CS thief can”. That 20% bonus is still a 0% bonus until you get your opponent under 50% health, so it averages to a 10% bonus which honestly isn’t all that impressive. The stats from 30 CS give hardly any more of a bonus than 10 DA, and all of the non-Executioner traits that you take from CS are fairly pointless. This isn’t the same with the traits from Trickery; all of them are useful and they all lend to increased damage output.

The point of my post was that 30 CS is not necessary to kill bunkers easily; I didn’t say they’re mutually exclusive. I said that you can just as easily kill somebody without 30 CS as you can kill them with it. Don’t twist my words.

Arganthium.5638:

Ozie.4176:

Arganthium.5638:

kekuso.5837:

I’d like to see that pvp build Jorun. I find it extremely hard to kill any bunker without 30 CS…

I can kill bunkers in sPvP easily with 10/0/0/30/30. The damage boost you get from zerker amulet is much, much higher than what you get from CS. CS just ends up being more like a tiny bonus.

I’m not sure if this is serious, anyone can kill a bunker, a bunkers role is not to live forever 1v1, its role is to stay alive until someone else shows up. Furthermore 20% damage from JUST executioner is not “just a bonus”. Also, having zerker gear and CS are not mutually exclusive, most people run both. Literally nothing in this post made any sense what so ever.

If you mean your own post, sure.

I said “kill bunkers easily”, as in “I can kill bunkers in the same amount of time that a 30 CS thief can”. That 20% bonus is still a 0% bonus until you get your opponent under 50% health, so it averages to a 10% bonus which honestly isn’t all that impressive. The stats from 30 CS give hardly any more of a bonus than 10 DA, and all of the non-Executioner traits that you take from CS are fairly pointless. This isn’t the same with the traits from Trickery; all of them are useful and they all lend to increased damage output.

The point of my post was that 30 CS is not necessary to kill bunkers easily; I didn’t say they’re mutually exclusive. I said that you can just as easily kill somebody without 30 CS as you can kill them with it. Don’t twist my words.

As someone who buildcrafts night and day to optimize my playstyle and as someone who plays a 10/0/0/30/30 thief in WvW, I don’t see how you’re getting enough critical damage out of your build in order to make the precision from your Berserker Amulet worth it. No combination of amulets and jewels can get past 20% on their own, without the aid of traits, making your precision null when it comes to maintaining cleave. Sure, you can survive with the vigor from Bountiful Theft and Vigorous Renewal, but in the end your job is to roam and win team fights when you aren’t capping empty points, and putting 30 into Acrobatics rather than CS is crippling your team, due to the inability to stack critical damage in sPvP solely through gear. I would be happy to run 30 in acrobatics as I do in WvW, but the stat limitations of gear pigeonhole thief into Critical Strikes unless running a condition build, in which case you should just role a necro or engineer which can do ranged condition cleave better.

/PvP