Guild Wars 2

The culling bug mimics unlimited initiative, lol.

The design of the Thief makes them very, very good at pubstaring. They’re the best class, bar none, of tormenting and wrecking new or bad players, and their combination of burst and stealth makes the way they win feel incredibly unfair to their victims.

They aren’t nearly the same problem to more experienced players, who have a better understanding of how to build and play their characters and have developed better attention and situational awareness overall. But in the lower brackets they’re real terrors, as is clearly obvious from the rage posts.

i guess experienced players magically see perma stealthed thieves?

Columba.9730:

i guess experienced players magically see perma stealthed thieves?

No, but experienced players have experience (self evident) with which they can rely on when countering (or playing) thieves. Spend long enough on the forum and you will eventually find a post that says “The thief uses stealth and no one knows where they are” which is usually countered by “An experienced player will have a pretty good idea of where they are” which is true, if you are paying attention to your encounters you will (hopefully) see patterns that people follow.

Then it’s just a case of working out which pattern the opposition is using and countering it, lord knows how many times I’ve been fighting other thieves who use stealth to run away, yet I’ve been able to follow them… and then kill them because they use simple patterns.

Conclusion: Objective experience matters a hell of a lot when dealing with other people in PvP.

Experienced players is subjective. I hear complaints across the board. Sorry, that’s yet another deflection.

Columba.9730:

Experienced players is subjective. I hear complaints across the board. Sorry, that’s yet another deflection.

If you choose to look at it that way then everything (except what you want) is “just another deflection” and while it’s true that “experienced players” is subjective, so is the notion of “complaints across the board”.

Looking at your previous arguments, you seem to have a problem with the culling issue, we all do, but continually complaining about it won’t make it go away any faster.
People dying with out being able to fight back can have the same problem with all burst builds that sacrifice everything for more damage… yet they complain more about thieves because thieves are the most prevalent version.

Aside from culling, you are complaining about the same area of the game that the developers WANT the thieves to be good at. It’s been stated that thieves are SUPPOSE to have the highest burst in the game, and our defense is entirely based around stealth and mobility, while our counters are conditions, AoE damage and bunker builds.
The problem comes from the fact that people DON’T want to use the mechanically made counters to thieves, instead preferring to play how they want and either live and let live or complain on the forums.

Braxxus.2904:

Doomdesire.9365:

Thevoidiscold.4910:

Constantly stealthing then running away and spamming 1 and 2 while doing bullkitten crits. Has nothing to do with mind games or whatver the kitten you people are talking about. Its just a cheap and boring to fight class. Im a guardian so When I see a thief I laugh in his face while I stop him into the ground. But this is not uselly the case for other classes. And their are just sooooooooo many of them. Jesus chirst.

So basically what you’re saying is that thief is OP and should be nerfed because it’s cheap and boring, but you’re a guardian so your class is better and you can kill them, yet guardian is not OP?

Actually that’s not even remotely close to what he’s “basically saying”.

Like, at all.

Perhaps in self-martyr-thief-world it translates that way, but in good old reality what he’s basically saying is what many other people have said (and ya’ll keep trying to twist around):
Thieves are annoying. I can beat them, sure. They’re just annoying and no fun to fight.

That’s it. How you even came up with your “basically saying” premise is astounding.

So you want Anet to do what about it? If you can kill them as equally as they can kill you, there is no problem here. End of story. Tank elementalists are annoying when I fight them, but I can still fight them, just as good as they can fight me. Just because I don’t like fighting them, should Anet change the class? Nope. If nothing is OP, nothing needs to be changed.

Coffeebot.3921:

Columba.9730:

Experienced players is subjective. I hear complaints across the board. Sorry, that’s yet another deflection.

If you choose to look at it that way then everything (except what you want) is “just another deflection” and while it’s true that “experienced players” is subjective, so is the notion of “complaints across the board”.

Looking at your previous arguments, you seem to have a problem with the culling issue, we all do, but continually complaining about it won’t make it go away any faster.
People dying with out being able to fight back can have the same problem with all burst builds that sacrifice everything for more damage… yet they complain more about thieves because thieves are the most prevalent version.

Aside from culling, you are complaining about the same area of the game that the developers WANT the thieves to be good at. It’s been stated that thieves are SUPPOSE to have the highest burst in the game, and our defense is entirely based around stealth and mobility, while our counters are conditions, AoE damage and bunker builds.
The problem comes from the fact that people DON’T want to use the mechanically made counters to thieves, instead preferring to play how they want and either live and let live or complain on the forums.

developers want thieves to be untargetable? Hmm. There are no counter to perma stealth thieves. sorry aoe only hits once in a blue moon. even if it hits, they remain stealthed due to culling.

I complain because if they cannot fix this soon, they should increase stealth cool downs to balance the game. I am not alone, but the thief apologist can continue to deny that there’s a problem. I can fight back against every other class, even if I die. I die plenty to other classes. I am not complaining about any of them. JUST this one because there is no fighting back vs. a perma stealthed thief.

personally I hate them because of stealth. I dont mind if you can sneak up on me but if you fail to kill me and I start to beat you, there should be no way you should be able to escape so easily with a few shadowsteps and invisibility. Battles in a balanced game should be able to go both ways where either person wins or both back off. Fighting thieves feels like theres only two options: You either get killed by one or it runs away.

Mister Mustard.7203:

Coffeebot.3921:

In summary, people are fine with 100b warriors killing them in 1.5 seconds for the same reason that they aren’t fine with BS thieves killing them in 1.5 seconds, it all has to do with how the human brain processes a surprising event and kicks into action.

I absolutely agree. However, I think there is an extra level of hate in this particular game because Thieves can reset that surprise state nearly at will.

If you dodge the Warrior’s Bull Charge, you can limit the amount of damage and retaliate, putting pressure on the Warrior. Or even if you were surprised by it, you can still stun break and not eat the entirety of 100B, and you are then able to retaliate and put pressure on the Warrior.

If you time it perfectly and dodge the invisible Backstab, and avoid most of the Heartseekers, the Thief then just hits 5, or 6, or whatever SR or BP are bound to, and resets. You are able to retaliate only in a very limited fashion, if you have an attack that will fire without a target or some AE.

Thing is, i can see the warrior coming… if i’m stupid enough to stand still i deserve what i get. If he manages to kill me, i have no qualms with that.

Thieves are able to take off most of my health before they even appear on screen…

Because they have the highest burst and best escape skills all in one.
They either kill you or if you do try to kill them and are winning they just escape.
Completely agree with Penguin 2 posts above.

Columba.9730:

developers want thieves to be untargetable? Hmm. There are no counter to perma stealth thieves. sorry aoe only hits once in a blue moon. even if it hits, they remain stealthed due to culling.

I complain because if they cannot fix this soon, they should increase stealth cool downs to balance the game. I am not alone, but the thief apologist can continue to deny that there’s a problem. I can fight back against every other class, even if I die. I die plenty to other classes. I am not complaining about any of them. JUST this one because there is no fighting back vs. a perma stealthed thief.

Just because the damage doesn’t get displayed doesn’t mean that AoE only hits “once in a blue moon” and yes they remain stealthed until it runs out, the culling problem ISN’T stealth it’s a completely separate problem, people just treat it as if it’s part of stealth because they don’t fully understand the problem.

So you complain about thieves in WvW having an issue that affects you, your solution is to gimp thief defense in sPvP and PvE where the culling isn’t an issue (for the most part), you say you can fight against every class besides thieves yet it sounds like you don’t use AoE against thieves, nor conditions, nor just running away until stealth wears off. To me it just sounds like you want everything that makes a thief a thief removed from the game or nerfed so that you can (in your present state) deal with it easier than now.

PS: Perma-stealth thieves aren’t perma stealthed even with culling issues, they have a small period of time when they are targetable by the enemy, but they can still be HIT by your spells even when the culling is in effect, you just need to account for that.
PPS: Perma-stealth thieves require a specific build that maximises the number of stealths that can be used in a fight so they will be using a P/D combo for condition damage because that fits in with the whole “permanent” stealth feeling, and condition builds don’t nuke health.

it doesn’t matter if they have a have second window. secondly, why can’t they change stealth just for wvwvw? they manage some skills for wvwvw/pvp vs pve.

Columba.9730:

it doesn’t matter if they have a have second window. secondly, why can’t they change stealth just for wvwvw? they manage some skills for wvwvw/pvp vs pve.

No actually they didn’t, the game is split into PvE+WvW and PvP, as far as balance is concerned WvW falls into the PvE category, not the PvP category. Secondly, the devs said they aren’t going to balance class interactions in WvW unless there is a bug/exploit involved.

If the small window of opportunity to hit the thief were extended by 1-2 seconds (via fixing the culling bug) then it won’t help you much if you can’t take advantage of the current window.

What I’d like to know is; what makes you think thieves would be any easier to fight against if culling were fixed? Sure you could target them for an extra 1-2 seconds, but I highly doubt that 1-2 seconds will make THAT much of a difference as the damage of a thief won’t change, so they will kill you in the same time frame.

Coffeebot.3921:

Columba.9730:

it doesn’t matter if they have a have second window. secondly, why can’t they change stealth just for wvwvw? they manage some skills for wvwvw/pvp vs pve.

No actually they didn’t, the game is split into PvE+WvW and PvP, as far as balance is concerned WvW falls into the PvE category, not the PvP category. Secondly, the devs said they aren’t going to balance class interactions in WvW unless there is a bug/exploit involved.

If the small window of opportunity to hit the thief were extended by 1-2 seconds (via fixing the culling bug) then it won’t help you much if you can’t take advantage of the current window.

What I’d like to know is; what makes you think thieves would be any easier to fight against if culling were fixed? Sure you could target them for an extra 1-2 seconds, but I highly doubt that 1-2 seconds will make THAT much of a difference as the damage of a thief won’t change, so they will kill you in the same time frame.

lol since they can kill us in 1-2 seconds, then, yes, it will make a difference. so are you against fixing the culling bug now too?

Columba.9730:

lol since they can kill us in 1-2 seconds, then, yes, it will make a difference. so are you against fixing the culling bug now too?

No because it affects me too, it’s also the source of the complains about thieves in WvW, but I’m just saying, if most people had an extra 1-2 seconds where the thief could be seen and targeted it won’t make much difference.

The thieves that get the most use out of culling are P/D stealth+bleed builds, and because they are a bleed build they kill slower than the 45s cool-down Backstab build, hell the BS build can kill in the space of 1.5s while you are affected by basilisk venom so it doesn’t give any extra time to react.

Essentially; if culling is fixed most people won’t have an easier time with thieves, they’ll just have less to blame/complain about.

Coffeebot.3921:

Columba.9730:

lol since they can kill us in 1-2 seconds, then, yes, it will make a difference. so are you against fixing the culling bug now too?

No because it affects me too, it’s also the source of the complains about thieves in WvW, but I’m just saying, if most people had an extra 1-2 seconds where the thief could be seen and targeted it won’t make much difference.

The thieves that get the most use out of culling are P/D stealth+bleed builds, and because they are a bleed build they kill slower than the 45s cool-down Backstab build, hell the BS build can kill in the space of 1.5s while you are affected by basilisk venom so it doesn’t give any extra time to react.

Essentially; if culling is fixed most people won’t have an easier time with thieves, they’ll just have less to blame/complain about.

ok then we will just need to continue the nerfs until they are balanced.

Sometimes I feel the hate on thieves are just from people hearing other people whining and just copies them. I run a condition damage build on sPVP and I played against people who insulted me. Calling me a kitten thief and HS spammer when I didn’t even use it once. I mean, it was as if they hated me just for the sole reason that I’m playing a thief even though I don’t even do what people hate about thieves. It’s like some people heard thieves are OP and people hate them and decided to join the bandwagon.

nope. most of us are simply tired of perma stealth god mode

Coffeebot.3921:

Columba.9730:

it doesn’t matter if they have a have second window. secondly, why can’t they change stealth just for wvwvw? they manage some skills for wvwvw/pvp vs pve.

No actually they didn’t, the game is split into PvE+WvW and PvP, as far as balance is concerned WvW falls into the PvE category, not the PvP category. Secondly, the devs said they aren’t going to balance class interactions in WvW unless there is a bug/exploit involved.

If the small window of opportunity to hit the thief were extended by 1-2 seconds (via fixing the culling bug) then it won’t help you much if you can’t take advantage of the current window.

What I’d like to know is; what makes you think thieves would be any easier to fight against if culling were fixed? Sure you could target them for an extra 1-2 seconds, but I highly doubt that 1-2 seconds will make THAT much of a difference as the damage of a thief won’t change, so they will kill you in the same time frame.

It would make a big difference. In those 3 seconds he’s revealed, you can land a CC and pretty much kill him (if he doesn’t have a stunbreaker) or make him run (if he does have a stunbreaker). It will also be easier to time your dodges.

FourTwenty.4268:

Pope.1469:

The thief is also the only class, when they fail to assassinate said target, that is able to (through stealth, multiple evades, and shadowsteps) instantly retreat, reset a fight, and try again with no repercussions. There is practically no risk for a thief in this regard.

You can pretend Thieves have unlimited initiative if you want, but that’s just not true. It costs SIX initiative for even 1 infiltrators arrow. That’s more than 50% of the your total allotted resource lol.

You can pretend we Thieves can stealth 24/7 but the more stealths/evades/shadowsteps(lol what? i guess you mean the 6 initiative arrow or maybe heartseeker) a thief uses for escape, they are unable to use for their initial burst attack

disclaimer, i do agree culling bug needs to be fixed

Alright, I’ll list out a few ways thieves can get out of fights easily, without resorting to Infiltrator’s arrow (which does cost a lot of initiative, and rightly so).

1. Withdraw, Roll for Initiative if that isn’t enough, then Infiltrator’s Arrow with the 6 initiative you just received if you need even more distance, or just Disabling Shot.

2. Shadowstep (the utility), Heartseeker away from enemy.

3. If using sword, use the second half of Infiltrator’s Strike.

4. The notorious Shadow Refuge (though this one can be countered easily if you know what to expect)

Those are the common methods. Then you have more creative ways involving Smoke Screen or traps. Note that none of these methods are very initiative-heavy, although I imagine a capable thief is able to manage his initiative well enough to easily have enough for a last Infiltrator’s Arrow.

And if you’re really feeling initiative-starved, you can easily trait into Quick Recovery in Acrobatics or 3 more initiative in Trickery. Then grab Infiltrator’s Signet for more regen and to help you chase even better (or run by targeting a random critter). All of this without compromising your overall damage as a backstab thief too much. You really have so many options as a thief.

Narcoleptic Insomniac.3179:

Sometimes I feel the hate on thieves are just from people hearing other people whining and just copies them. I run a condition damage build on sPVP and I played against people who insulted me. Calling me a kitten thief and HS spammer when I didn’t even use it once. I mean, it was as if they hated me just for the sole reason that I’m playing a thief even though I don’t even do what people hate about thieves. It’s like some people heard thieves are OP and people hate them and decided to join the bandwagon.

Why condition? My first 80 was a Necro – conditions are horrible in this game. They are so easily removed.

I pray that A-net give Necro’s a viable burst damage option one day (axe is woeful).

I don’t think anyone is copying anyone. Why would someone take the time out of their day to come here and complain unless they really believed in what they were saying and wanted to express their opinions and effect some change?

At first I thought an honest discussion on the subject could be achieved, eventually meetin on the middle with everyone realising their own strengths and weaknesses but as they say on the interwebs…“haters gonna hate”.

EQ….hate.
EQ2….hate.
Ryzom….hate.
SWG…hate.
SWTOR…hate.
WoW….hate.

GW2 ? …. you guessed it.

It’s okay to hit the little sneaky guy, but it’s not okay to be hit by him. Each and every game ever released which contained a stealth class ends up with a mountain of QQ which inevitably ends up with the said stealth class to be nerfed into the ground.

Last MMO before GW2 was SWTOR, and admittedly the stealth classes were a bit OP at release (they generally are and therefore are expected to be nerfed, it is normal and completely expected) but…oh my god the poor operatives( aka star wars rogues) got beaten and beaten and beaten again so bad by the nerf bat until they became quintessentially unviable to play in competitive PvP or high level “raids”.

And what happened next ? Everybody shut up about it, yet they kept getting regular nerfs just for good measure lol. Also anytime a buff of any kind was mentioned, the forums reawakened and exploded in a gigan-terrific explosion of tears just at the idea of it.

The same story can be found in every MMOs with the slightest amount of stealth.
I used to think for a while that it was because people playing others classes complaining about it were simply unaware of how to counter stealth classes (aka slow/root/snare + kiting until stealthie wants to run which is where you finish him/her off with your big damage…never the other way around as stealthies always save their last ace til very last) but now I’m playing GW2 and that there is only about 15-20 buttons to smash, mostly about 10 or so being involved in performing a decent rotation…I believe these people to be idiots.

It’s not ok to be squishy, sneaky and strong. But it’s ok to be tough, loud and strong.

Also it generally is the heavy armor classes who complain about stealth since their archetype suggests that they are tanks, basically tough as nails but pretty clumsy.

Guess what? We are your counter class. And if we decide to act like idiots, we get roflstomped in one hit.

Are you seriously telling me that with all your toughness, power and vitality you can never ever get close to a thief ?

If your answer is yes, then it says a lot about your ability to play the game. A lot of warriors turn around and would say “easy for you op thieves to say, but we havent got the means to counter you”.

Really ? Seriously? I guess you have gone for the typical run of the mill invincible berserker build with no utilities or weapon sets to defend yourself or CC your enemy just a little bit. I mean god, just daze us for 1 sec with your shield and then hammer us with f1…we’ll lose half our life and run away kitten-scared. Simply because we literally just spammed stealth does not mean we still aren’t right in front for you at this very second ( the longer you take, the higher the chances of us turning to table around).

I struggle in sPvP more against good warriors than any other classes because we really do counter each other. You think thieves are ruthless with CnD+backstab+blossom/steal+black powder+ CnD+backstab( 100% guaranteed kill if you sit and take it)…you warriors are just the same when you CC us just bit (thieves hate being cc’d as it makes us panic and usually waste quite a bit a initiative/utilities simply to get free as quickly as possible) and proceed to 100BLADES TO YOUR FACE!!!
You’ve got the means to make our lives hell too, but somehow you almost expect to be able to faceroll everyone without investing the slightest amount in other aspects of character building that doesn’t involve damage…yet tell us off when some people playing the thief class decide to do the same ?

If I can get around you I will win; if you dont let me I will lose.
Simple.

Well, today i got chased around the map by a guy who apparently disliked losing two duels against me, and when he eventually managed to catch me i can tell you i felt the pain, in the form of a 10k eviscerate.

Maybe i should start a qq thread in warrior forums ?

muscarine.5136:

Well, today i got chased around the map by a guy who apparently disliked losing two duels against me, and when he eventually managed to catch me i can tell you i felt the pain, in the form of a 10k eviscerate.

Maybe i should start a qq thread in warrior forums ?

it’s been tried before. the moderators will delete your thread if you QQ for nerfs in other class forums. they let them run rampant on the thief forum though. . .

Groovy.6749:

Each and every game ever released which contained a stealth class ends up with a mountain of QQ which inevitably ends up with the said stealth class to be nerfed into the ground.

Because MMOs, for the most part are a particularly stagnant area and they constantly repeat the same mistakes and same unoriginal ideas, one of which is the totally flawed assassin type you get in most games, which is basically unbalanceable.

Stealth in itself is not the issue, other than being annoying to many, it is the fact they so often pair stealth with huge burst and the abilty to get away, which always means risk vs reward is off for these type of classes, particularly in open world type situations, there is simply no way to balance it on that flawed design, so it will constantly see-saw between OP & UP and rightly attract a lot of complaints.

Hello,

As this thread has derailed in many way with off-topic posts and disrespectful or inflammatory comments, it is now closed.

Please help keep these forums a productive and friendly place by posting in a respectful tone.

Thank you.