Guild Wars 2

So I’ve played this game plenty now, and I’ve come across plenty of thieves in WvW. Usually, it’s a good fight. Some play better than others and I win some, and I lose some. Sometimes their front-load damage is too much and I need to stealth/clone/run away. On rare occasion, I just had some bad luck and timing and just deserved to die.

But then there’s a Thief who, for some reason, can basically instantly kill me. I see him coming, he goes into stealth, and suddenly my health drops to nothing in about 1 second. This has happened frequently with a small handful of thieves. I use my stealth/break stun and it doesn’t matter. The thief just attacks the same area and ravages me as if I never even tried to escape.

Again, most thieves, while tough, cannot kill me more-or-less instantly. In fact, almost every thief I have ever fought has not exhibited this behavior. But there have been a couple with damage so absurd, one literally becomes unkillable by a small group because the thief can get in, kill, and get out with impunity. That was highly evident when a small group was being camped by a lone thief at the portal sanctuary in RvR.

This lone type of thief was also quickly killing player after player, and was able to quickly escape with minimal effort and then kill another player. To be blunt, he was far more effective than siege at mowing down players. I don’t think that’s fair at all.

Damage logs look like this:
You were hit for 6,693 damage from Dragonbrand Invader using Cloak and Dagger.
You were hit for 6,716 damage from Dragonbrand Invader using Cloak and Dagger.
You were hit for 1,338 damage from Dragonbrand Invader using Double Strike.
You were hit for 1,338 damage from Dragonbrand Invader using Double Strike.
You were hit for 3,988 damage from Dragonbrand Invader using Wild Strike.
You were hit for 1,576 damage from Dragonbrand Invader using Wild Strike.

I was also backstabbed for 90% of my health and of course instantly killed by the same rogue. Is GW2 really supposed to have an insta-kill class? I’m level 80 in level 80 gear.

I’ve NEVER complained about anything this game has thrown at me, simply because anything that felt unfair never felt ridiculously so. This feels not only unfair, but completely game-breaking. I hope someone important takes this post seriously, because this is SERIOUSLY way too much damage to inflict on a level 80 in level 80 gear who is fully ready to battle.

I’m not saying nerf thieves, almost none of them can pull off what I am describing. However, I’m saying find the ones who are doing way too much damage compared to any other class and fix them.

3 Orbs and full exotics scales to well with some thief skills.

I play almost only WvW and this happened to me twice since release. Both had exotic gear and the team the played on had all orbs of power.

It might not be so obvious but it also scales to well with burst skills of other classes.

Backstab just hits hard when you hit somebody from behind. If you KNOW a Thief just stealthed on you (and you should recognize the obvious animation), you might want to dodge to a good distance, or perhaps even start spamming Death Blossom since it has an evade (and REALLY makes it hard for them to hit your back)

Remember that when stealthed, it’s often REALLY obvious where you actually are, and you can still be hit. You’re not safe just because you can’t be targeted.

Seems you were hit a total of 7 times.
How is this instant ? And where is your dodge button ?

They’re using an exploit that I’ve, admittedly, proven works. You basically hit you’re cloak and dagger then steal ability, in that order, instantly. The result starts the CnD animation while putting you next to your opp. You instantly go stealth when CnD finishes, then you backstab for about 9k. Between those 2 hits, +Mug which hes likely specced for hitting for about 4, any health you have left over is minimal at best.

I have NO doubt ANet will fix this, as well as the Warrior equivalent bull rush+hasted hundred blades. Regardless of if that mechanic is ‘working as intended’ no character regardless of race, spec, or traits should 100-0 someone in 1 second flat. Period. And thats NOT an exaggeration. Trust me. I was doing it all day Sunday before I got disgusted with myself and went back to my condition build but I cant tell you how many /tells I got from haters and other thieves wanting to know how I did it…

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/64152-jinzus-burst-backstab-build/

ah I was hit with a CC beforehand. and even breaking said stun didn’t allow me to roll. I roll all the time, I assure you. I also fight all the time. I just found it fascinating and infuriating how all-of-a-sudden one player can do so much more damage than any other of the same class. That is the entire crux of my argument/rant. This isn’t an isolated incident, I died multiple times to the same player(s) and each death happened in a way where breaking stun+ stealth and then rolling the INSTANT I was attacked never even had a chance to save me. That’s my entire issue here.

The stun is basilisk venom. Check the link I pasted. Its a basically instant-free kill that can’t be countered (turned to stone cant be countered) and is repeatable only once every 45? seconds..

basilisk venom→CnD + Steal + Mug→assassin sigil→backstab→CnD again→Backstab

Revelstoke.8924:

They’re using an exploit that I’ve, admittedly, proven works. You basically hit you’re cloak and dagger then steal ability, in that order, instantly. The result starts the CnD animation while putting you next to your opp. You instantly go stealth when CnD finishes, then you backstab for about 9k. Between those 2 hits, +Mug which hes likely specced for hitting for about 4, any health you have left over is minimal at best.

I have NO doubt ANet will fix this, as well as the Warrior equivalent bull rush+hasted hundred blades. Regardless of if that mechanic is ‘working as intended’ no character regardless of race, spec, or traits should 100-0 someone in 1 second flat. Period. And thats NOT an exaggeration. Trust me. I was doing it all day Sunday before I got disgusted with myself and went back to my condition build but I cant tell you how many /tells I got from haters and other thieves wanting to know how I did it…

I think you just solved the mystery. Thank you. It really felt like the thief who was doing this really was cheating, because no other thief even came close to doing the amount of DPS this particular one did. I truly hope ANet does fix it as you believe they will.

Revelstoke.8924:

You basically hit you’re cloak and dagger then steal ability, in that order, instantly. The result starts the CnD animation while putting you next to your opp. You instantly go stealth when CnD finishes

Hrm, that would definitely be an unintended mechanic, imo. They probably need to fix that.

However, the damage from Backstab as it is… still just as powerful as I remember it being back in BWE1. If it’s survived that long, I doubt it’s overpowered, and people just need to learn how to counter that. Assuming, of course, that other things are not broken, like what is described above.

You might notice from the posted link that the build does have weaknesses:

Cons:

-Survivability (there are many times where you can’t stomp thanks to enemy team members / aoe damage).
-No cc breakers (see Options section, at the bottom)
-Time between burst (looking at between 45 seconds and 1 minute, assuming you want to wait for your haste buff, which is a good idea).
-If you use your haste buff, well. All you got is your shortbow to make a getaway, since you can’t dodge.

He can’t dodge, and he basically builds the entire playstyle around jumping into stealth and backstabbing you, which is meant to be a “viable” build with counters.

Remember that when stealthed an enemy can still be hit.

So long as they address shadowsteps not interrupting the CnD animation, it should be perfectly fine. (Even then, Steal’s range is 900, 1200 when traited – you should be able to see him from a distance, and move accordingly)
Then again, there were so many many many thieves on the forums crying about the inability to “set up” an ambush because of how short duration stealth is, I won’t be surprised if it’s not nerfed. (because, seriously, the range of Steal puts them in a range close enough to not only be seen, but attacked)

Erebus Delirium.4892:

I’m level 80 in level 80 gear.

That is a pretty wide range though. Some folks have already noted that whoever killed you was likely using a one-hit-wonder build where they can pop everything and bring someone down extremely fast…but only once every minute or so.

However, this could be greatly exacerbated by your equipment. There’s leaps and bounds between, say, level 80 offensive-stat greens and a balanced or defensive 80 exotic set. Traits could also have a significant effect on how effectively these glass cannon setups can bring you down.

I think we can pin down what he was using to kill you, but I’m equally interested in how you’re set up to be susceptible to these attacks.

Yes – definitely cannot ignore what kind of build the OP was using.

DrakeWurrum.6049:

Backstab just hits hard when you hit somebody from behind. If you KNOW a Thief just stealthed on you (and you should recognize the obvious animation), you might want to dodge to a good distance, or perhaps even start spamming Death Blossom since it has an evade (and REALLY makes it hard for them to hit your back)

Remember that when stealthed, it’s often REALLY obvious where you actually are, and you can still be hit. You’re not safe just because you can’t be targeted.

A very good tip for avoiding backstab is the keybind that turns you instantly 180 degree if you spam it its almost impossible to get hit in the back.

@Erebus Delirium. Yes I was with you when it happen >_> I’m a mesmer and just the two first attacks would be enough for me to pop my decoy but it was like less then a few seconds before I can use any skills. Hell First time I was thinking I was melted but the skills pretty much prevented me from even getting downed.(down status..)

All my gear is masterwork, and is PRIMARILY Power/precision with SECONDARY vital/toughness. Also have rare trinkets since I’m 392 jewelcrafter. The thing is, this type of instant death is just such an outlier — insanely so. And it isn’t just me, he can kill me and then the next guy just seconds apart. This is not “blow everything and hide for awhile.” This is killing machine that makes siege look passe.

Erebus Delirium.4892:

And it isn’t just me, he can kill me and then the next guy just seconds apart.

Highly doubt that.

Shomaruki.7395:

@Erebus Delirium. Yes I was with you when it happen >_> I’m a mesmer and just the two first attacks would be enough for me to pop my decoy but it was like less then a few seconds before I can use any skills. Hell First time I was thinking I was melted but the skills pretty much prevented me from even getting downed.(down status..)

Thanks for sharing. A witness makes my argument just slightly more credible.

Just want to chime in and say that Steal is an instant activation ability and should not interrupt any animations happening midcast. That’s the whole appeal of instant casts. Elementalists use Teleport to land Churning Earth, Mesmers can shatter while they’re attacking, etc etc.

It is not an exploit.

DrakeWurrum.6049:

Erebus Delirium.4892:

And it isn’t just me, he can kill me and then the next guy just seconds apart.

Highly doubt that.

I watched it happen. I promise you. I was once on the slow end of his attacks where it took him a good 2-3 seconds to kill me with lack of backstab and cooldowns.

On the other hand, maybe I meant 5 to 9 seconds in between bursting down players

I’m just saying I’ve been in WvW for a while, not once in my WHOLE time in wvw Have I’ve been melted like this before. I’ve fought lvl 80 people before with my 60 mesmer and still none of them have been able to melt me like this thief did.

Nbefore people see this and we get a wave of thiefs instead of rangers x-x

I’ve told you everything I know. I truly hope the root issue surfaces and a solution is found. Thanks everyone for chiming in with your knowledge.

If you can survive the initial onslaught and get the thief out of initiative that would give you a good chance to win. If they stealth, use ground target aoe’s, most thieves who are damage spec wont wanna stand in or attempt a backstab if they are dropping life fast. All that said… Thieves are an excellent 1vs1 burst damage class. 30k+ damage is not hard for me to do in under a few seconds, and that’s at range.

Shomaruki.7395:

I’m just saying I’ve been in WvW for a while, not once in my WHOLE time in wvw Have I’ve been melted like this before. I’ve fought lvl 80 people before with my 60 mesmer and still none of them have been able to melt me like this thief did.

Nbefore people see this and we get a wave of thiefs instead of rangers x-x

This, exactly. Super hyper melting unlike any other, and 90% of thieves can’t even come close to this, and they melt people pretty fast as-is. This exceeds the bounds of even dirty thief playing (which I think is awesome and am totally fine with). Please fix this debacle, however. Ok. Erebus out.

-offtopic- Erebus! You owe me 4s for repairs QQ. send to Shomaruki NAOW!

-topic- Well all I can say to this before I log back online is. IF this wasn’t an exploit, why all of a sudden has this appear from no where. I’ve seen some high level theifs, and again, none of them have been able to literally eat all my hp. For lawls I even changed my traits to full reflection and distortion just for giggles and that didn’t even work.

I feel I should point this out:

When you see someone on the outskirts of a fight, or solo, ESPECIALLY if they are not full health, then you should switch to your dagger/dagger combo and annihilate them (IF… IF you have your cooldowns up).

Everything, and I mean everything rides on your opener into the fight. If you fail the opener, switch to your shortbow and book it, if you can — unless you feel that you can pull off the win. Remember, you are a glass cannon.

1. He’s a glass cannon.
2. Use your AOE and walls.
3. As soon as he ‘disappears’ from in front of you – dodge.
4. ‘Roll’ is not dodge. Tells us a lot of your skill level.
5. Dodge means gtfo and make his slow in-stealth movement hurt. He will appear in front of you soon enough.
6. Stealth first, you’re a Mesmer right? Or pop a clone as he gets in range so he hits the clone.
7. Get better gear, and don’t complain if you’re fighting a fully-geared player and he’s owning you in WvW. There IS a slight gear difference, enough to burst you down 100-0 in a couple seconds, compared to two fully geared players where the fight lasts a minute or so.
8. You said you were rooted and couldn’t roll, but initially said he just downed you instantly. So either you get magically rooted randomly, or you were engaged in a fight where the Thief saw you a stationary, easy to kill target, and made the most of the situation. You, without a stun breaker, sat there and died. Easy kills.
9. Get your phantasms out while he’s at range, and they will begin attacking the moment he un-stealths.
10. Skill based game is tailored to skilled players. It’s not easy to pull off those massive backstabs regardless of how overpowered you think it is. It’s a match of skill; someone is going to be on the losing side. Don’t believe me? Create a Thief and find out.

It’s amazing how many people are willing to jump into PvP without stun breakers, or at least skills that remove immob/chill/cripple.

Im constantly amazed that people build Power/Perc die in seconds to another Power/Perc and then its: " Why did i get destryed by [insert class here] when i have no hp or toughness!"

Vexus, thank you so much for taking the time to post a clearly well-thought response to my issue. I most certainly have some more learning to do, but allow me to address a couple of your points to help you best understand where I am coming from and the exact issue I am having.

4. Indeed, I need to use my dodge more often (not just a well-timed roll roll) However, my issue is when such a maneuver is virtually impossible. Read on.:

8. First I became stunned. I immediately used my skill to break stun and stealth simultaneously, and then I rolled immediately following that, I dropped down the targeted stealth field as I kept moving. Regardless, I was killed in a matter of a second or two because I was also snared. The rogue was able to constantly hit me no matter what I did. I was full health and ready when the attack began. This type of death occurs without the necessity of a leading backstab. In a SUBSEQUENT encounter, I was dropped instantly due to being hit with the backstab. This is where the confusion is coming from. As it is now clearly evident, I was speaking about two separate encounters with the same thief (and several more with a couple other thieves since).

My single, solitary issue is that I am killed even when trying to escape, and I am killed VERY quickly — too quickly. Most of the thief encounters I face are nothing like that, so this particular player and the very few similar to him are significant outliers — so much so that it inspired this post.

In addition to the ability to drop me quickly, the thief can then escape with virtual impunity, possibly killing another player along the way — the damage was that consistent and brutal.

I certainly have a lot to learn, but being killed without a chance to do anything, even when using my stun break and escape tactics feels incredibly wrong.

Every single other class and almost every thief feels fair enough, and I can learn from my mistakes. For example, the Warrior’s hundred blades is nothing compared to this, because breaking the preceding stun and rolling away works as it should, as I have a small window to fully escape or even counterattack. With the thief, I just die.

I think we’re going to see a lot more of this build happening in the future. Whatever these few thief players are doing is just too good, and it transcends the abilities of any other thief out there.

OP: Did this happen yesterday? What guild was the thief in? I play on dragonbrand and was WvW all weekend so I am curious if your from maguuma or tarnished coast.

As a thief you can still avoid dmg while rooted. Can even get out of snares without using 6-10.

All I can tell you is I too died to those burst builds before I had all Power/Tough/Vitality gear. There’s a reason all the PvP gear has those stats. So you won’t complain about the burst. Now that as a Thief I have over 20k HP (with a single Orb) and I am still not fully geared, the incoming burst doesn’t have such an effect. I don’t insta-kill anyone, however that isn’t my goal in the first place. If it were, then I’d gear and spec like the guy who downs you in a couple hits.

If you don’t have over 20k HP, then I suggest you work on your gear. Plenty of Mesmers have at least made me run away. You are right that the Thief can run away almost always without any issue, while at the same time being able to catch anyone they want. Although I have seen people catch up to me more often, because really, almost every class has some kind of speed boost or way to catch someone, it’s just not as easily accessible as the Thief skills, which I assume are by design.

The only reason you can get away from 100 Blades now, and not the Thief backstab build, is practice. The fact that you started your comment with “I was stunned” left out the 20 seconds of prep that needed to happen to get you stunned to get the kill. And when someone is running from me, with his back open for me, it’s full on DPS. I suggest being aggressive with Thieves, it’s much more effective than thinking you can escape.

Dodge the moment you see him disappear from 20ft in front of you. He just used Steal/Stealth, and is about to Backstab you. Then go about your normal fighting mechanics. He can’t do this 2x in a row. Avoiding the ‘Initial hit’ has been critical going against all Stealth classes in almost every game. Being stunned… we only have a single stun on a 45 second cooldown which almost no one uses. Being stunned means you were probably going to die by the group of players regardless of the Thief.

OP: If you are from Far Shiverpeaks, sry

Wow. People complaining about a melee build in WvW. If all of these complaints about X class beating Y class were answered by Anet, we would be simplified into a class-less system, 100 health, and the only thing we can do is throw rocks at each other just to satisfy your demands to be like everyone else. Every class is different and has different ROLES. Know your role and quit kittening, or gtfo. There are more important things to be complained about besides, “Omg that class with kitten predictable stealth just 3-5 shot me, but I forgot that I can dodge or pop a survival cooldown.” If you are getting 1-2 shot, here’s a tip… Stop speccing/building to be a glass cannon.

Thiefs are doing some crazy damage at the moment, I’m a 80 warrior with great gear and full defence and health tatics maxed and I have had thiefs burn through my armor and health like a hot knife through butter. I have also noticed thiefs trying to lure me towards them in WvW as I think they see warriors now as easy targets.

Builds like THIS are the reason:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Jinzu-s-Burst-Backstab-Build/first#post135699

They only do one thing, and they generally only do it when all their cooldowns are up. Once you figure out what to look for, you can generally avoid it with some success through good use of dodging, blinds, protection, stuns, or similar abilities. Glass cannon builds like this also generally drop VERY quickly under any kind of focus fire.

But yeah, the same thing can happen to you with a warrior hitting you with stunning/immob followed by hundred blades. Elems can cycle through their biggest attacks in no time flat. etc etc. Glass cannons aren’t anything new to PvP games.

Warriors are easy targets if they are wearing power/precision/crit damage gear. Warriors have a 5 second invulnerable clicky btw. And the toughness/vitality that you get from traits isn’t enough to be “tanky.”

Hmm… yes Warriors are easy targets. The burst is easy to avoid, and they all use Greatsword, meaning it’s easy to learn how to counter them. Some guy using dual-axes whirlwinded me down a lot, stacking ~5.5k damage or so, and I had to run off. Didn’t expect it, now I have to check what weapon Warriors are using if they’re going to adapt!!! Please keep using Greatswords though, seriously. I like killing you guys.

^ Whirling Axe is pretty rough. Axe/Shield is pretty nuts as well if they pop their blocks right when I’m about to burst them. Greatsword warriors though… might as well be a free kill. I tried it out just to see what all the rage was about and hated it, so I changed over to sword/warhorn shout based healing/condition removal/condition damage. Great group support, amazing survivability, pretty decent offense. I’ll stick with thief though.

Revelstoke.8924:

They’re using an exploit that I’ve, admittedly, proven works. You basically hit you’re cloak and dagger then steal ability, in that order, instantly. The result starts the CnD animation while putting you next to your opp. You instantly go stealth when CnD finishes, then you backstab for about 9k. Between those 2 hits, +Mug which hes likely specced for hitting for about 4, any health you have left over is minimal at best.

I have NO doubt ANet will fix this, as well as the Warrior equivalent bull rush+hasted hundred blades. Regardless of if that mechanic is ‘working as intended’ no character regardless of race, spec, or traits should 100-0 someone in 1 second flat. Period. And thats NOT an exaggeration. Trust me. I was doing it all day Sunday before I got disgusted with myself and went back to my condition build but I cant tell you how many /tells I got from haters and other thieves wanting to know how I did it…

This is a very common tactic in sPvP. Any instant cast skill will not interrupt previously started abilities. When I play with Sword/Pistol I often use steal in the middle of a pistol whip. Shadowstep also works for this as it is instant cast. So does scorpion wire. It’s one of the basic backbones to an effective pistol whip build.

You can also use steal in the middle of a stomp to get those pesky thieves and mesmers that teleport away. The downed teleport is instant as well, meaning it won’t interrupt your channeled heal skill when you use it.

Didn’t think of Steal vs. a Downed player. I’m going to have to do this every time now right before it lands (to factor in those who wait to the very last moment). The Mesmer, however, goes invisible I believe. Very nice though.

I seriously doubt he is exploiting. I think your cloak and dagger quotes of 6.6 k are actually backstabs. Theres no way cnd hits for that much.

Likely the thief is built around raw power and a backstab build. The backstab builds give insta crits from stealth. And because to trait hidden killer you need 30 in CS, you`ll have a raw critical chance of around 18-21 percent. 1 in 5 hits being a critical is still a rather large number in the pvp game. Add to the fact that if furious retaliation is traited, your looking at 40+ crit percent on a sub 50% health player.

I assure you though thieves like this are not rare. I myself play on TC and without tooting my own horn, am quite the kitten. I have a 30 CS 20 SA and 20Acro build and am slotted full power, vit and Cdamage. I have 24k+ hp and utilities are SF and BP with Shadow signet. I`ve gone 3v1 more than once and can often win. The issue is that with this build the thief has so many stealth options that i can stealth whenever i want, basically, and can Infil arrow away when all my utilities are on cooldown. Acrobatics lets me dodge all the time and essentially have swiftness when in stealth allowing easy backstabs. i cant deliver 9k backstabs but I also cant be killed either.

Thats the dynamic of WvW roamer thieves though. Slotting valkyrie armor and power& vit&crit damage makes you impossible to kill and can still dish out damage. Pure damage thieves in wvw are only good in organized groups and zergs where other players are their protection.

Burst classes are king at pvp. Always have been in other mmos always will be in future ones. Dot classes are only viable in duels and even then only excel when the other player doesnt bother to disengage and heal up.

Since noone has posted pictures yet, lemme show you what’s this all about

http://i.imgur.com/OJQHt.jpg

Poor Shiverpeaks invader :|

Stop building glass cannons and expecting not to die instantly. Thief is quite possibly the greatest class at shutting down glass cannons (and without relying on a single, channeling attack that requires you to stand still). If you build a glass cannon, you shouldn’t expect to live long against any class, let alone the assassin class.

Revelstoke.8924:

They’re using an exploit that I’ve, admittedly, proven works. You basically hit you’re cloak and dagger then steal ability, in that order, instantly. The result starts the CnD animation while putting you next to your opp. You instantly go stealth when CnD finishes, then you backstab for about 9k. Between those 2 hits, +Mug which hes likely specced for hitting for about 4, any health you have left over is minimal at best.

I have NO doubt ANet will fix this, as well as the Warrior equivalent bull rush+hasted hundred blades. Regardless of if that mechanic is ‘working as intended’ no character regardless of race, spec, or traits should 100-0 someone in 1 second flat. Period. And thats NOT an exaggeration. Trust me. I was doing it all day Sunday before I got disgusted with myself and went back to my condition build but I cant tell you how many /tells I got from haters and other thieves wanting to know how I did it…

I’m pretty sure this is intended. They’ve made it so steal doesn’t interrupt attacks for a reason. If this wasn’t intended, they’d have fixed it a while ago.

Just a L2P issue, obviously you are going the usual berserker thief which means you’re the squishiest thing in the game. Stealing into CnD may or may not be a exploit but according to your logs you never even got mugged.

Seems they fixed it.

Revelstoke.8924:

They’re using an exploit that I’ve, admittedly, proven works. You basically hit you’re cloak and dagger then steal ability, in that order, instantly. The result starts the CnD animation while putting you next to your opp. You instantly go stealth when CnD finishes, then you backstab for about 9k. Between those 2 hits, +Mug which hes likely specced for hitting for about 4, any health you have left over is minimal at best.

Anyway, this isn’t an exploit. It’s a known mechanic that any insta-cast ability can be used during a channel cast, and is actually one of the linchpins to effective Elementalist play.

Erebus Delirium.4892:

This lone type of thief was also quickly (1) killing player after player, and (2) was able to quickly escape with minimal effort (1) and then kill another player. To be blunt, he was far more effective than siege at mowing down players. I don’t think that’s fair at all.

(1) A Thief with the build you are describing simply can’t kill “Player after player”. This kind of Thief is a one burst wonder, which he can repeat every 45 seconds.

I also play a backstab Thief but with lower damage and no downtime instead.
And while i can kill many players in a row if i outplay them by far, i can’t burst down someone in a second on the other hand.

(2) How can you tell the Thief did all this with minimal effort, if you didn’t even knew what he was doing when saying so?

/E:

Also it’s not like Backstabs aren’t avoidable, and if that happens, the backstab Thief is screwed.
High risk, high reward. Thats all.

:I You haven’t dealt with warriors using a glass crit cannon spec yet. Poor lad.