Guild Wars 2

Now that Cloacked in Shadow moved to GM trait… We D/D thieves cant use both shadow rejuv and cloaked in shadow.. which is pretty much hard nerf to d/d set since CnD = followed by cloaked in shadow (Blind) was our offensive and defensive move along with shadow’s rejuv now they have taken that blind and its pretty ridiculous.. Anet has been nerfing thieves so hard Q.Q..

Now even necro hits even harder than thieves and its AOE and has much better survival.. now its kinda pointless to roll thieves when we sacrifice so much defensive and yet we does less damage than other professions..

I just lolled my breakfast on my keyboard! I didn’t even read the post, the title was enough!

Yeah I think Cloack in Shadow is a good GM trait, the problem here is Shadow Rejuvenation in the wrong spot. Anet pls remove this trait and move executioner again in the CS line and thief will be balanced

The only nerf thief is taking here is to their ‘complain on the forums that Anet only nerfs thieves’ trait.

Kolly.9872:

Yeah I think Cloack in Shadow is a good GM trait, the problem here is Shadow Rejuvenation in the wrong spot. Anet pls remove this trait and move executioner again in the CS line and thief will be balanced

Remove Shadow’s Rejuvination?

Move executioner back ? No thanks

Shadow’s rejuvenation is my favorite thief trait and makes what I do and actually have fun with in Guild Wars 2 possible. Solo roaming Xv1s. Without shadow’s rejuvenation, so much sustain is gone and you can not survive in the 2v1s and 3v1s if the players are good.

BFMV.3198:

Kolly.9872:

Yeah I think Cloack in Shadow is a good GM trait, the problem here is Shadow Rejuvenation in the wrong spot. Anet pls remove this trait and move executioner again in the CS line and thief will be balanced

Remove Shadow’s Rejuvination?

Move executioner back ? No thanks

Shadow’s rejuvenation is my favorite thief trait and makes what I do and actually have fun with in Guild Wars 2 possible. Solo roaming Xv1s. Without shadow’s rejuvenation, so much sustain is gone and you can not survive in the 2v1s and 3v1s if the players are good.

Plz don’t say stuff like that, any 2v1 vs equally skilled players you should/will lose. If it happened and you won they were of inferior skill.

Kolly.9872:

Yeah I think Cloack in Shadow is a good GM trait, the problem here is Shadow Rejuvenation in the wrong spot. Anet pls remove this trait and move executioner again in the CS line and thief will be balanced

They shouldn’t move executioner back, they just need to make the CS line competitive in its own unique way. Something that destroys boons on crit maybe. Or how about blinding people on a crit in melee range with kitten ICD (let’s call it flashing blades for the sake of nostalgia). There’s a lot of things they could do to move the line sideways and make it interesting. Some of the problems are that things just aren’t worth it along the way. Side strikes could be rolled into hidden killer. Sundering strikes isn’t really great on it’s own without some sort of condi duration increase. If they would roll that flashing blades idea into sundering strikes, You’d have an interesting master and grandmaster path. Combo critical chance could have the 10% pistol damage added back into it. Thief could have an endurance steal on crit in place of side strike (called exhausting assault maybe?).

I like having damage being the focus of the DA line. Lets have the crit strikes line have its own, unique flavor so it that could compliment or replace that damage.

BFMV.3198:

Kolly.9872:

Yeah I think Cloack in Shadow is a good GM trait, the problem here is Shadow Rejuvenation in the wrong spot. Anet pls remove this trait and move executioner again in the CS line and thief will be balanced

Remove Shadow’s Rejuvination?

Move executioner back ? No thanks

Shadow’s rejuvenation is my favorite thief trait and makes what I do and actually have fun with in Guild Wars 2 possible. Solo roaming Xv1s. Without shadow’s rejuvenation, so much sustain is gone and you can not survive in the 2v1s and 3v1s if the players are good.

So you’re saying that the only way you are winning your 1vsX is thanks to shadow rejuvenation? Well this is the reason this trait should go right now. That include the vast majority of self sustain trait every other class has

Kolly.9872:

So you’re saying that the only way you are winning your 1vsX is thanks to shadow rejuvenation? Well this is the reason this trait should go right now. That include the vast majority of self sustain trait every other class has

I’m running 06620 with shadow rejuvenation.
A friend ofmine recently annoyed me how I would be a bad thief and would never become a better thief because I use that trait, just like you guys did – so I calculated how much mug heals /per minute and how much shadow rejuvenation heals per minute, given the thief has got sleight of hands mug heals 1k more than shadow rejuvenation. So if you guys say that that trait is too strong you should first remove mug and the lower cooldown of steal.
And yeah, I’m aware that people use both – I’m not one of them.

Jana.6831:

Kolly.9872:

So you’re saying that the only way you are winning your 1vsX is thanks to shadow rejuvenation? Well this is the reason this trait should go right now. That include the vast majority of self sustain trait every other class has

I’m running 06620 with shadow rejuvenation.
A friend ofmine recently annoyed me how I would be a bad thief and would never become a better thief because I use that trait, just like you guys did – so I calculated how much mug heals /per minute and how much shadow rejuvenation heals per minute, given the thief has got sleight of hands mug heals 1k more than shadow rejuvenation. So if you guys say that that trait is too strong you should first remove mug and the lower cooldown of steal.
And yeah, I’m aware that people use both – I’m not one of them.

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Mug gets you ~2k health, and let’s even round down to a 20 second steal. That’s 100hps at best. SR heals for~320 (including the healing power it gets right now ) a second while in stealth. If you maintain at least a little less than 1/3 uptime of stealth, SR comes out the clear winner in hps.

Maugetarr.6823:

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Mug gets you ~2k health, and let’s even round down to a 20 second steal. That’s 100hps at best. SR heals for~320 (including the healing power it gets right now ) a second while in stealth. If you maintain at least a little less than 1/3 uptime of stealth, SR comes out the clear winner in hps.

Alright, the conclusion:
In this one minute, I use as many CnD as I can -revealed included -I stay stealthed for around 2 secs every time (otherwise my chance of a backstab is gone, I’m actually mostly stealthed for around 1 sec) Shadow refuge heals around 420 per pulse for 5 secs, that no matter whether or not I’m traited in SA.
If I’m using SR (not the trait), I heal for ~420*5 = 2100 + 15*320 = 4800 together that’s 6900 -let’s say I’m also stealthed for 2 secs 5 times in this minute – that’s 5*320= 1600 -that’s 8500 in total. I have no interrupt, I don’t steal life.
You can use mug 4 times in this 1 min (~ 6k healing also SR = 2100 together 8100 healing. Even if you don’t use the trickery line it’s 6600 heal) This is wrong, see the Edit below.

Don’t ask me what exact scenario we agreed on when discussing this for hours – it’s been a while.

Edit: And whenever it’s numbers I make mistakes -anyway I have been in a lower level area when looking mug up- the actualheal is around 2200.
So it’s: 4* 2200 = 8800 also SR = 2100 together 10900 healing.
Even if you don’t use the trickery line it’s 8700 heal.

Mug can’t be used 4 times a minute. At best steal is on a 21ish second cooldown. Mug heals for 1980. I should not have used SR for Shadows Rejuvenation as it seems to have caused confusion.

It seems that this has caused you to go from talking about shadows rejuvenation versis mug to shadow refuge versus mug.

Your original claim was

so I calculated how much mug heals /per minute and how much shadow rejuvenation heals per minute, given the thief has got sleight of hands mug heals 1k more than shadow rejuvenation.

Leaving shadow refuge out of this since it’s not adding to the comparison of the traits, if you keep stealth uptime in a fight at around 1/3 of the time, Shadows Rejuvenation will offer a greater heal per second (or minute if you prefer). In addition to this, the assumptions made in this argument are that you steal exactly when it’s available while not attempting to stealth whenever possible. Including the trait that gives you an extra second of stealth, you can safely backstab after 3 seconds of regen and easily maintain 50% uptime of stealth. Moreover, if you miss the backstab window (either by choice or counterplay ) you can CnD again which will raise your hps since you don’t have to wait for revealed.

I’m not arguing that shadows rejuvenation is op, I’m pointing out that the potential healing it has in theory and practice is higher than that of mug.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Now even necro hits even harder than thieves and its AOE and has much better survival.. now its kinda pointless to roll thieves when we sacrifice so much defensive and yet we does less damage than other professions..

Omg you really don t understand Necro, we got hit hardest, besides you are running SA and SR got buffed. You can do that dagger 5 trick anyway and win every fight. Pls don t cry.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Now even necro hits even harder than thieves and its AOE and has much better survival.. now its kinda pointless to roll thieves when we sacrifice so much defensive and yet we does less damage than other professions..

Sure thing bro.

Sometimes when I come on here, it is just a massive facepalm for me.

1 thief trying to defend ShaRejuv, claiming that is offers less hp/s than Mug, with some of the most ridiculous, ludicrous assumptions I’ve ever seen. Fox News would be impressed with your methods.

Another thief defending the same, (in my opinion, broken) trait, since it “allows him to 1v2, 1v3” etc. I can only agree with the other sane people here – this is ridiculous.

Then one guy complaining that necro is blabla better than thief in every way. Are you for real? I would ask if you’ve ever seriously tried to play necro, but such a statement shows that you havent – necro has some way more glaring issues than thieves.

Arenanet doesn’t hate thieves, if anything, they hate those who do not spec 06620 D/P or condi P/D – just look at the panic strike change, how Cloaked in Shadows will be a competing grandmaster trait (poor D/D thieves), how initiative regeneration got reworked in said specs’ favour, the multiple (and mostly justified) nerfs to S/D, the multitude of direct and indirect buffs to condi P/D (ferocity change, perplex runes, confusion trickery GM trait). This wast just what I could think of at the top of my head.

Maugetarr.6823:

Mug can’t be used 4 times a minute. At best steal is on a 21ish second cooldown. Mug heals for 1980. I should not have used SR for Shadows Rejuvenation as it seems to have caused confusion.

It can, it’s 20 sec cooldown.
sec 1 mug, sec 20 mug, sec 40 mug, sec 60 mug = 4 times

Maugetarr.6823:

It seems that this has caused you to go from talking about shadows rejuvenation versis mug to shadow refuge versus mug.

What?
Yeah well,I was comparing these two traits – that’s legit, I think as most thieves use mug and call Shadow Rejuvenation OP

Maugetarr.6823:

Leaving shadow refuge out of this since it’s not adding to the comparison of the traits, if you keep stealth uptime in a fight at around 1/3 of the time, Shadows Rejuvenation will offer a greater heal per second (or minute if you prefer).

No, I think SR is really important and I know no thief who isn’t using it.
And without SR a SA thief wouldn’t work as it’s the main source of healing. That’s why it’s in the calculation. You don’t have enough inatiative as a D/P thief to stealth that many times, you can’t hit with CnD that many times to make up for the lack of SR.

Maugetarr.6823:

In addition to this, the assumptions made in this argument are that you steal exactly when it’s available while not attempting to stealth whenever possible.

The same goes with peoplecalling SA “OP” they make assumptions – it doesn’t work out like that in a fight.

Maugetarr.6823:

Including the trait that gives you an extra second of stealth, you can safely backstab after 3 seconds of regen and easily maintain 50% uptime of stealth. Moreover, if you miss the backstab window (either by choice or counterplay ) you can CnD again which will raise your hps since you don’t have to wait for revealed.

True, it’s about 1,5 k healing max each time, given that your CnD doesn’t miss -you know opponents can dodge. If talking about a D/D thief, the stealth time for D/P thieves is shorter (if using black powder only once).

Maugetarr.6823:

I’m not arguing that shadows rejuvenation is op, I’m pointing out that the potential healing it has in theory and practice is higher than that of mug.

No it isn’t, sorry. But I made a mistake in my calculation, that was why I came back to this thread:

SR heals: 2100
Mug in 1 min: 8800, with sleight of hand, without 6600

SA only D/x thief 5 times stealthed (+ SR)
Heal in SR: 7050 (insg)
5* (1 s) : 1650
5* (2 s) : 3300
5* (3 s) : 4950

Mug with sleight of hand and SR: 10900
D/x 5*2 s and SR: 10350
D/x 5*3 s and SR: 12000

Although pulses are a weird thing anyway, so sometimes I have 5 pulses when stealthed for 4 s, sometimes I have 4.

So even in the best scenario the max a D/D thief traited in SA would get is: 13650, that’s 2750 more than one with mug and sleight of hand would get, with the difference that the mug thief also does around 6k damage during that time (actually ~10 k damage if the poison isn’t cleansed – maybe I should use mug)

My point is that SA isn’t “OP” not even if you compare it to other thieve’s skills – I hope that point came across.

Edit: Made this calculation for a friend and had to cut the German parts out ;)

Verilan.2963:

Sometimes when I come on here, it is just a massive facepalm for me.

1 thief trying to defend ShaRejuv, claiming that is offers less hp/s than Mug, with some of the most ridiculous, ludicrous assumptions I’ve ever seen. Fox News would be impressed with your methods.

Good, then prove me wrong!

Verilan.2963:

Arenanet doesn’t hate thieves, if anything, they hate those who do not spec 06620 D/P or condi P/D

You know nothing about thieves, right?
06620 is as far from the meta as it can be.

Edit: Oh no, metabuild has a D/P 06620 build, so it really must be the meta!

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Mug can’t be used 4 times a minute. At best steal is on a 21ish second cooldown. Mug heals for 1980. I should not have used SR for Shadows Rejuvenation as it seems to have caused confusion.

It can, it’s 20 sec cooldown.
sec 1 mug, sec 20 mug, sec 40 mug, sec 60 mug = 4 times

Maugetarr.6823:

It seems that this has caused you to go from talking about shadows rejuvenation versis mug to shadow refuge versus mug.

What?
Yeah well,I was comparing these two traits – that’s legit, I think as most thieves use mug and call Shadow Rejuvenation OP

Maugetarr.6823:

Leaving shadow refuge out of this since it’s not adding to the comparison of the traits, if you keep stealth uptime in a fight at around 1/3 of the time, Shadows Rejuvenation will offer a greater heal per second (or minute if you prefer).

No, I think SR is really important and I know no thief who isn’t using it.
And without SR a SA thief wouldn’t work as it’s the main source of healing. That’s why it’s in the calculation. You don’t have enough inatiative as a D/P thief to stealth that many times, you can’t hit with CnD that many times to make up for the lack of SR.

Maugetarr.6823:

In addition to this, the assumptions made in this argument are that you steal exactly when it’s available while not attempting to stealth whenever possible.

The same goes with peoplecalling SA “OP” they make assumptions – it doesn’t work out like that in a fight.

Maugetarr.6823:

Including the trait that gives you an extra second of stealth, you can safely backstab after 3 seconds of regen and easily maintain 50% uptime of stealth. Moreover, if you miss the backstab window (either by choice or counterplay ) you can CnD again which will raise your hps since you don’t have to wait for revealed.

True, it’s about 1,5 k healing max each time, given that your CnD doesn’t miss -you know opponents can dodge. If talking about a D/D thief, the stealth time for D/P thieves is shorter (if using black powder only once).

Maugetarr.6823:

I’m not arguing that shadows rejuvenation is op, I’m pointing out that the potential healing it has in theory and practice is higher than that of mug.

No it isn’t, sorry. But I made a mistake in my calculation, that was why I came back to this thread:

SR heals: 2100
Mug in 1 min: 8800, with sleight of hand, without 6600

SA only D/x thief 5 times stealthed (+ SR)
Heal in SR: 7050 (insg)
5* (1 s) : 1650
5* (2 s) : 3300
5* (3 s) : 4950

Mug with sleight of hand and SR: 10900
D/x 5*2 s and SR: 10350
D/x 5*3 s and SR: 12000

Although pulses are a weird thing anyway, so sometimes I have 5 pulses when stealthed for 4 s, sometimes I have 4.

So even in the best scenario the max a D/D thief traited in SA would get is: 13650, that’s 2750 more than one with mug and sleight of hand would get, with the difference that the mug thief also does around 6k damage during that time (actually ~10 k damage if the poison isn’t cleansed – maybe I should use mug)

My point is that SA isn’t “OP” not even if you compare it to other thieve’s skills – I hope that point came across.

Edit: Made this calculation for a friend and had to cut the German parts out

The thing you cannot calculate for is conditions. Every class you face will output some condition and when u can clear a 5 sec burn that ticks for let’s say 500 damage per sec that’s 2500 health that SA just took out. And when you don’t run in SA let’s say a 26006 d/p you take the full brunt of that damage. Also the fact that you think a thief a)Hits every steal which is often not the case and b)that health gained is actually used which can be said for both sides but considering you stealth a lot more than you steal so the health gained is ACTUALLY gained more when u stealth than steal. You just can’t calculate how Mug gives more health than SA.

KillerKyle.1435:

The thing you cannot calculate for is conditions. Every class you face will output some condition and when u can clear a 5 sec burn that ticks for let’s say 500 damage per sec that’s 2500 health that SA just took out. And when you don’t run in SA let’s say a 26006 d/p you take the full brunt of that damage.

What hinders you to put 2 points in SA? That’s the condition removal- I was comparing Shadow rejuvenation to Mug as thieves either have the one or the other or both.

KillerKyle.1435:

Also the fact that you think a thief a)Hits every steal which is often not the case and b)that health gained is actually used which can be said for both sides but considering you stealth a lot more than you steal

Yes, but every thief does that and a thief without Shadow Rejuvenation has got the advantage that all heal he can get from SR is done within 5 secs, he doesn’t have to “sit” in stealth. I was comparing 2 ideal situations. <— (Edit: ) Not every CnD hits either, sometimes even 5+2 combo of D/P goes wrong. We can talk about situations that are less ideal, so steal misses 2 times, CnD misses 2 times – a D/D thief without mug would be dead then, a mug thief still has got enough initative to escape/CnD.

KillerKyle.1435:

so the health gained is ACTUALLY gained more when u stealth than steal. You just can’t calculate how Mug gives more health than SA.

Well, then calculate it? Sorry but I’m really certain my numbers are correct, so what you are doing is making assumptions/denying something without proof.

This MUST be a troll. Good one though, i am laughing hard

Quadox.7834:

This MUST be a troll. Good one though, i am laughing hard

Yeah, you’re all confused,right? as you just can’t get why someone is coming with facts and not something someone else has told them.
Sorry to confuse you guys!

the funny thing is i run 0/6/4/4/0 d/d right now for wvw roaming. Not the most optimal build but i still do well considering i don’t have sustain.

Even if you arent nomalizing the heal over the over the cooldown which clears up the confusion here, you can’t get mug 4 times in a minute. The trait line increases the steal regeneration rate while SoH reduces the CD leading to a steal time of 35×0.8÷1.3=21.53. The heal from mug is 1980 without healing power, and is only 2160 if you have 300 in shadow arts. This is only 92 health per second. Since taking shadow refuge gives you 300 healing power from the line, the minimum healing healing you’ll get is 323 per second. With the base initiative pool you could maintain a 50% stealth uptime with no other utilities or traits, so we’ll use that as the maximum uptime (pistol 5, 2 leaps). So 323×0.5 =161.5. To see where the % uptime would yield the same average heal per second, we’ll rearrange to 92÷323×100=% uptime=28.5% uptime of stealth being the crossover point where it heals more than mug. Conflating the argument with shadow refuge (the utility) doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.

Tldr:
mug maxes out at 92 hps with SoH included
Shadows rejuvenation maxes out at 161.5 hps with no other traits or utilities (Assuming OH pistol so you’re not reliant on CnD for stealth)

Shadow Arts is going to be so totally busted that you don’t even need the blind; there’s a built-in 50% damage reduction while stealthed from the minor 5 pt.

Also, if you want to play sustain-based D/X, play D/P. D/D is meant for damage. I’ll take my executioner + Hidden killer on signet stab but the sad fact is that a thief traited into SA can now get out-played and win/eat damage anyways because of 50% damage reduction while stealthed.

ANet’s not helping their case in regards to what will be future thief nerfs because of this ridiculous amount of sustain which requires skill to counterplay remotely well from stealth alone. Now it’ll be largely build-based.

DeceiverX.8361:

…

ANet’s not helping their case in regards to what will be future thief nerfs because of this ridiculous amount of sustain which requires skill to counterplay remotely well from stealth alone. Now it’ll be largely build-based.

Yeah, I have this feeling that they will have another balance patch after the release of HoT. Since elite specs should also add in some imbalances.

DeceiverX.8361:

Shadow Arts is going to be so totally busted that you don’t even need the blind; there’s a built-in 50% damage reduction while stealthed from the minor 5 pt.

Also, if you want to play sustain-based D/X, play D/P. D/D is meant for damage. I’ll take my executioner + Hidden killer on signet stab but the sad fact is that a thief traited into SA can now get out-played and win/eat damage anyways because of 50% damage reduction while stealthed.

ANet’s not helping their case in regards to what will be future thief nerfs because of this ridiculous amount of sustain which requires skill to counterplay remotely well from stealth alone. Now it’ll be largely build-based.

Here’s a thought. Move RoS to the GM Major slot and roll it into CiS. Choosing between RoS/CiS and SRej feels more like an equal choice then.

Maugetarr.6823:

Even if you arent nomalizing the heal over the over the cooldown which clears up the confusion here, you can’t get mug 4 times in a minute. The trait line increases the steal regeneration rate while SoH reduces the CD leading to a steal time of 35×0.8÷1.3=21.53. The heal from mug is 1980 without healing power, and is only 2160 if you have 300 in shadow arts. This is only 92 health per second. Since taking shadow refuge gives you 300 healing power from the line, the minimum healing healing you’ll get is 323 per second. With the base initiative pool you could maintain a 50% stealth uptime with no other utilities or traits, so we’ll use that as the maximum uptime (pistol 5, 2 leaps). So 323×0.5 =161.5. To see where the % uptime would yield the same average heal per second, we’ll rearrange to 92÷323×100=% uptime=28.5% uptime of stealth being the crossover point where it heals more than mug. Conflating the argument with shadow refuge (the utility) doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.

Tldr:
mug maxes out at 92 hps with SoH included
Shadows rejuvenation maxes out at 161.5 hps with no other traits or utilities (Assuming OH pistol so you’re not reliant on CnD for stealth)

Ok, so maybe we should make a new topic with all possibilities – traits, bloodlust or not if in wvw, buffs from allies, when a healing skill was used,what healing skill was used etc.
Thanks for the attempt to bring some facts into this. You’re right, it takes slightly longer than 20 s to steal with a full line of trickery and SoH, so it’s 3 steals (in the first minute) for thieves with a full line of trickery and 2 for thieves without anything in trickery. = 2000*3 +2100 = 8100 for trickery thieves, 2200*2 = 4400 +2100 = 6500 for 26600 thieves who also likely have Shadow Rejuvenation.
You guys complained that I was making an ideal situation of my mug thief but didn’t realize that I also made an ideal situation of my D/D 06620 thief. I rarely ever stay stealthed for full 15 seconds or for full 4 seconds, my CnD misses more often than I like, so I usually don’t get the 13k potential healing, I think 10350 is the best I can hope for (2 s stealthed for 5 times) and that isn’t that much more than the 8100 from mug with trickery and that’s my point.
The “health per second” is potential health per second, while Shadow Rejuvenation really heals per second, mug doesn’t, so I have to be stealthed to gain health with Shadow Rejuvenation, wheras I get my “full healing” with one skill (steal) with mug – it’s more risky to have to wait to heal, don’t you think?

And if you want to prove me wrong don’t write “Too long, didn’t read” makes no sense =)

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Even if you arent nomalizing the heal over the over the cooldown which clears up the confusion here, you can’t get mug 4 times in a minute. The trait line increases the steal regeneration rate while SoH reduces the CD leading to a steal time of 35×0.8÷1.3=21.53. The heal from mug is 1980 without healing power, and is only 2160 if you have 300 in shadow arts. This is only 92 health per second. Since taking shadow refuge gives you 300 healing power from the line, the minimum healing healing you’ll get is 323 per second. With the base initiative pool you could maintain a 50% stealth uptime with no other utilities or traits, so we’ll use that as the maximum uptime (pistol 5, 2 leaps). So 323×0.5 =161.5. To see where the % uptime would yield the same average heal per second, we’ll rearrange to 92÷323×100=% uptime=28.5% uptime of stealth being the crossover point where it heals more than mug. Conflating the argument with shadow refuge (the utility) doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.

Tldr:
mug maxes out at 92 hps with SoH included
Shadows rejuvenation maxes out at 161.5 hps with no other traits or utilities (Assuming OH pistol so you’re not reliant on CnD for stealth)

Ok, so maybe we should make a new topic with all possibilities – traits, bloodlust or not if in wvw, buffs from allies, when a healing skill was used,what healing skill was used etc.
Thanks for the attempt to bring some facts into this. You’re right, it takes slightly longer than 20 s to steal with a full line of trickery and SoH, so it’s 3 steals (in the first minute) for thieves with a full line of trickery and 2 for thieves without anything in trickery. = 2000*3 +2100 = 8100 for trickery thieves, 2200*2 = 4400 +2100 = 6500 for 26600 thieves who also likely have Shadow Rejuvenation.
You guys complained that I was making an ideal situation of my mug thief but didn’t realize that I also made an ideal situation of my D/D 06620 thief. I rarely ever stay stealthed for full 15 seconds or for full 4 seconds, my CnD misses more often than I like, so I usually don’t get the 13k potential healing, I think 10350 is the best I can hope for (2 s stealthed for 5 times) and that isn’t that much more than the 8100 from mug with trickery and that’s my point.
The “health per second” is potential health per second, while Shadow Rejuvenation really heals per second, mug doesn’t, so I have to be stealthed to gain health with Shadow Rejuvenation, wheras I get my “full healing” with one skill (steal) with mug – it’s more risky to have to wait to heal, don’t you think?

And if you want to prove me wrong don’t write “Too long, didn’t read” makes no sense =)

Other people might not want to read through a big block of text.

For the life of me I cant figure out where the extra 2100 in the “2000*3 +2100” comes from. The most mug will produce is 5940 health in a minute. If you can stealth for 18-19 seconds total in a minute, you’ll get 5814-6197 health with shadow rejuvenation.

At this point I think almost every profession this making similar statement, except for engineers (who feel loved and I am sure many that do not play the profession are hoping it amounts to bad touching) and some of the guardians (mostly due to arguing about what category tomes among other skills)

As players that have thief characters or perhaps prefer their thief characters to other profession is the any that after seeing the proposal are in a worst spot (or with the tone of discussion more hated).

Maugetarr.6823:

DeceiverX.8361:

Shadow Arts is going to be so totally busted that you don’t even need the blind; there’s a built-in 50% damage reduction while stealthed from the minor 5 pt.

Also, if you want to play sustain-based D/X, play D/P. D/D is meant for damage. I’ll take my executioner + Hidden killer on signet stab but the sad fact is that a thief traited into SA can now get out-played and win/eat damage anyways because of 50% damage reduction while stealthed.

ANet’s not helping their case in regards to what will be future thief nerfs because of this ridiculous amount of sustain which requires skill to counterplay remotely well from stealth alone. Now it’ll be largely build-based.

Here’s a thought. Move RoS to the GM Major slot and roll it into CiS. Choosing between RoS/CiS and SRej feels more like an equal choice then.

Maybe. I’d also even go as far to say just cut the reduction in half (25%) and make that baseline due to the massive amount of damage buffs most professions are getting with the changes, making low-health pool classes extremely vulnerable from dying to hits even by tank specs.

Maugetarr.6823:

Other people might not want to read through a big block of text.

For the life of me I cant figure out where the extra 2100 in the “2000*3 +2100” comes from. The most mug will produce is 5940 health in a minute. If you can stealth for 18-19 seconds total in a minute, you’ll get 5814-6197 health with shadow rejuvenation.

See, if you don’t want to read through awall of text don’t start a discussion.
I already told you: 5 sec initial healing in SR that everybody gets.
I want to fight, not sit in stealth.

Edit: And before you’re puzzled yet again: I also already told you why I left SR in that calculation.
Edit²: Scenario mug thief with trickery vs D/D Rej thief: Mug thief: 6000 heal in one minute: D/D Rej thief: 7920 heal in one minute. Both aren’t using shadow refuge and the D/D thief has got the highly likely scenario that he CnDs, stays stealthed for 3 seconds and then lands a backstab to CnD right after the revealed is gone and so on.
Happy now? Tell me again how hard it is to land a steal?

I don’t get the logic behind those calculations. how can steal with mug/6trix that heals for ~2k be higher than 21 × 320.

Jana.6831:

Verilan.2963:

Sometimes when I come on here, it is just a massive facepalm for me.

1 thief trying to defend ShaRejuv, claiming that is offers less hp/s than Mug, with some of the most ridiculous, ludicrous assumptions I’ve ever seen. Fox News would be impressed with your methods.

Good, then prove me wrong!

Verilan.2963:

Arenanet doesn’t hate thieves, if anything, they hate those who do not spec 06620 D/P or condi P/D

You know nothing about thieves, right?
06620 is as far from the meta as it can be.

Edit: Oh no, metabuild has a D/P 06620 build, so it really must be the meta!

I’m not going to delve into the statistical analysis of both realistic and potential healing to be gained comparatively from Mug or Shadows Refuge – Maugetarr outlined it very clearly. Furthermore, in the comparison of the two, Maugetarr was being realistic, or at least adding a “realistic factor” when adding a variable to the stealth/SR uptime (namely 50%), which you on the other hand, didnt in comparing Steal to SR.

SR/Stealth has the advantage of being completely player-controlled in regards to uptime – generally speaking, you decide when to stealth, how to stealth, and for how long. Therefor, for the most part, the achieved healing of SR is in the hands of you, the player.

Steal (assuming Mug + trickery line + Sleight of Hand) on the other hand, is far more unreliable in reality. It can be non-aegis blocked, invuln target, not hit (target stealthing at a lucky time), blinded, evaded etc. There is a very real chance, and often happens in fights, that you do not manage to land it every time, thereby not realising the full potential heal. So far, it has been assumed that it not only will hit every single time (ludicrous), but that you will also use it the moment it comes off cooldown.
THAT was one of my main gripes, and the source of my original statement about your assumptions, Jana.

And for the record, not only is there the (player-enemy synergy, as opposed to entirely player based) matter of if Steal hits, there is also the matter of if the player would use it. Steal, traited with Mug and full trickery, is a very potent, tactically important skill. You dont waste it around for nothing – optimally, and usually, you’ll save it (within reason) for interrupting important skills, like stomps, resses, high-damage skills, heals, that sort of stuff. Not mindlessly use it every single time it comes off cooldown.

Sorry if I seem grumpy, but the aforementioned comparison of MugSteal and SR was deeply flawed and out of touch with reality.

EDIT: And 06620 D/P has been a staple and (differing frequency at times) common thief build in both “outdoor” wvw as well as OS for the past 3 or so years!

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I don’t get the logic behind those calculations. how can steal with mug/6trix that heals for ~2k be higher than 21 × 320.

Well it does not. What I do not get is why a 6200 point heal over 21 seconds where one is doing no damage is seen as OP.

I also do not get how people can claim the sky falling with such allegedly “op” traits when we have not even seen the entire system in place or in practice.

How much will the steal cycle be lowered with the sword trait Swindlers equilibrium in practice?

How will the new improv work in practice and play out with mug and steal as a blast field? I see a lot of potential in a double healing seed steal with that water field and using steal as a blast finisher into that field to as to get another 1300 heal. Will it be possible to get 2 steals off in those 20 some seconds ? I have my doubts but it might well be. I do not see mug as ever getting as much heal as an SR realistically but I do not think it should either.

Just how much in the way of attributes will we get from our gear and from baseline?

How will the various buffs to other classes change game balance ? Will what is seen as too much healing by some suddenly be not enough? Will this force thieves into the SA line leading to people suggesting it OP because too many take it when the fact is there too much damage to deal with UNLESS you take it?

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself - thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster - that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Impact.2780:

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Not necessarily, people can choose not to run it for multitudes of reasons – and it is quite popular in WvW, which is arguably the only place it shines.

Impact.2780:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

While you have a point with Cloak & Dagger, D/P or utility-based stealth rarely miss (heartseeker through black powder, if done in rapid succesion, is rarely and difficult to interrupt). Shadows Rejuvenation is obviously a healing trait, a sustainy one, and in long/attritional fights, it will arguably heal a lot.

Impact.2780:

1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself – thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.

Agreed, but it is important to point out that 100 power is marginal, unlikely to change an outcome, whereas Shadow’s Rejuvenation can factor in quite heavily.

Impact.2780:

2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster – that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.

Agreed, but keeping mind of the scope of the effect of Mug and 100 power is arguably important.

Impact.2780:

3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.

Whether you land Steal is a discussion on its own ofc, but Shadows Rejuvenation adds ~320 hp/s, which is added on top of your regular heal, withdraw is around 290 hp/s and HiS is somewhere around 200 hp/s. Combined, we’re still looking at around 500-600 hp/s, which is quite substantial – and more than most other classes can do, especially over long, sustained fights.

Impact.2780:

4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Mug is a really amazing trait, can’t argue with that, but if you didnt get much healing from SR you either won the fight very fast through offensive skill (in which case a different trait allocation would be optimal), or (if you lost) you failed to utilize a cornerstone of your build – sustained healing.

Verilan.2963:

Jana.6831:

Verilan.2963:

Sometimes when I come on here, it is just a massive facepalm for me.

1 thief trying to defend ShaRejuv, claiming that is offers less hp/s than Mug, with some of the most ridiculous, ludicrous assumptions I’ve ever seen. Fox News would be impressed with your methods.

Good, then prove me wrong!

Verilan.2963:

Arenanet doesn’t hate thieves, if anything, they hate those who do not spec 06620 D/P or condi P/D

You know nothing about thieves, right?
06620 is as far from the meta as it can be.

Edit: Oh no, metabuild has a D/P 06620 build, so it really must be the meta!

I’m not going to delve into the statistical analysis of both realistic and potential healing to be gained comparatively from Mug or Shadows Refuge – Maugetarr outlined it very clearly. Furthermore, in the comparison of the two, Maugetarr was being realistic, or at least adding a “realistic factor” when adding a variable to the stealth/SR uptime (namely 50%), which you on the other hand, didnt in comparing Steal to SR.

SR/Stealth has the advantage of being completely player-controlled in regards to uptime – generally speaking, you decide when to stealth, how to stealth, and for how long. Therefor, for the most part, the achieved healing of SR is in the hands of you, the player.

Steal (assuming Mug + trickery line + Sleight of Hand) on the other hand, is far more unreliable in reality. It can be non-aegis blocked, invuln target, not hit (target stealthing at a lucky time), blinded, evaded etc. There is a very real chance, and often happens in fights, that you do not manage to land it every time, thereby not realising the full potential heal. So far, it has been assumed that it not only will hit every single time (ludicrous), but that you will also use it the moment it comes off cooldown.
THAT was one of my main gripes, and the source of my original statement about your assumptions, Jana.

And for the record, not only is there the (player-enemy synergy, as opposed to entirely player based) matter of if Steal hits, there is also the matter of if the player would use it. Steal, traited with Mug and full trickery, is a very potent, tactically important skill. You dont waste it around for nothing – optimally, and usually, you’ll save it (within reason) for interrupting important skills, like stomps, resses, high-damage skills, heals, that sort of stuff. Not mindlessly use it every single time it comes off cooldown.

Sorry if I seem grumpy, but the aforementioned comparison of MugSteal and SR was deeply flawed and out of touch with reality.

EDIT: And 06620 D/P has been a staple and (differing frequency at times) common thief build in both “outdoor” wvw as well as OS for the past 3 or so years!

Do me a favour and read the wall of texts I already wrote in this thread as everything I would answer now has already been said by me. Multiple times actually.

BFMV.3198:

Kolly.9872:

Yeah I think Cloack in Shadow is a good GM trait, the problem here is Shadow Rejuvenation in the wrong spot. Anet pls remove this trait and move executioner again in the CS line and thief will be balanced

Remove Shadow’s Rejuvination?

Move executioner back ? No thanks

Shadow’s rejuvenation is my favorite thief trait and makes what I do and actually have fun with in Guild Wars 2 possible. Solo roaming Xv1s. Without shadow’s rejuvenation, so much sustain is gone and you can not survive in the 2v1s and 3v1s if the players are good.

The fact that you’re commonly winning Xv1s is probably a sign that its a little overpowered.

One thing I was hoping from HoT is that anet would reduce how effective full SA is and slightly buff thief survival outside that trait line. There are some new traits that seem like attemp to do that, it’s hard to say how well they’ll do in HoT. But again, if the proposed SA changes go through, thieves most likely won’t need anything else to survive.

Impact.2780:

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself – thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster – that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Thieves don’t run SA “currently” for several reasons:

1. The offensive traits are scattered between Critical Strike and Deadly Art. Anet solved the problem by moving all the good traits to Deadly Art, and make Critical Strike neglitable, so thief only ever need to choose DA now (unless you’re in PVE)

2. Thief is one of the classes that benefits the most from choosing 3 full traitlines. Thief couldn’t choose SA currently only because they lack trait points to go BOTH offensive and defensive. Now with 3 full lines, they’re able to go offensive and defensive at the same time, thus making SA’s defensive much more accessible.

3. Combine the feature of DA becomes the to-go trait and Critical strike becomes not needed at all, thief can easily grab full SA without any consequence or drawback. They can be even more survival with the newly buffed Acro or stay to their pvp/wvw trickery.

4. Anet basically makes SA a brain-dead traitline by giving you EVERYTHING, without the need of making choices. You get even MORE regen from going to stealth, you get initiative, you get -50% damage, you get cleanse all in one build, no choice has to be made. (Unless you want to go for the new venom build, and ONLY if you go for venom build)

5. All trait stats are merged to gears, so thief wouldn’t “sacrifice” dps to go for SA. Thieves are reluctent of choosing SA currently ONLY because they need to keep their dps by choosing critical strike and grab all the steal traits, that they don’t have points for SA. After the stat change, thief does not need to worry about losing dps anymore.

Consider all the factors above, that’s why the new SA will become OP.

Criticize me all you like, I understand thief player will like themselves to be OP in future. Who wouldn’t want their main class to be OP?

Toxsa.2701:

Impact.2780:

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself – thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster – that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Thieves don’t run SA “currently” for several reasons:

1. The offensive traits are scattered between Critical Strike and Deadly Art. Anet solved the problem by moving all the good traits to Deadly Art, and make Critical Strike neglitable, so thief only ever need to choose DA now (unless you’re in PVE)

2. Thief is one of the classes that benefits the most from choosing 3 full traitlines. Thief couldn’t choose SA currently only because they lack trait points to go BOTH offensive and defensive. Now with 3 full lines, they’re able to go offensive and defensive at the same time, thus making SA’s defensive much more accessible.

3. Combine the feature of DA becomes the to-go trait and Critical strike becomes not needed at all, thief can easily grab full SA without any consequence or drawback. They can be even more survival with the newly buffed Acro or stay to their pvp/wvw trickery.

4. Anet basically makes SA a brain-dead traitline by giving you EVERYTHING, without the need of making choices. You get even MORE regen from going to stealth, you get initiative, you get -50% damage, you get cleanse all in one build, no choice has to be made. (Unless you want to go for the new venom build, and ONLY if you go for venom build)

5. All trait stats are merged to gears, so thief wouldn’t “sacrifice” dps to go for SA. Thieves are reluctent of choosing SA currently ONLY because they need to keep their dps by choosing critical strike and grab all the steal traits, that they don’t have points for SA. After the stat change, thief does not need to worry about losing dps anymore.

Consider all the factors above, that’s why the new SA will become OP.

Criticize me all you like, I understand thief player will like themselves to be OP in future. Who wouldn’t want their main class to be OP?

Yet in another post you claim you can kill virtually any thief outside one very specific build.

I do not see any of your concerns are credible given, in spite of significant enhancements to rangers you ask for yet more even as you claim thieves will be OP.

In short it all self serving and no real concern for balance. You want your ranger to be able to kill that last specific build with the same success you claim you have with all the others.

babazhook.6805:

Toxsa.2701:

Impact.2780:

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself – thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster – that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Thieves don’t run SA “currently” for several reasons:

1. The offensive traits are scattered between Critical Strike and Deadly Art. Anet solved the problem by moving all the good traits to Deadly Art, and make Critical Strike neglitable, so thief only ever need to choose DA now (unless you’re in PVE)

2. Thief is one of the classes that benefits the most from choosing 3 full traitlines. Thief couldn’t choose SA currently only because they lack trait points to go BOTH offensive and defensive. Now with 3 full lines, they’re able to go offensive and defensive at the same time, thus making SA’s defensive much more accessible.

3. Combine the feature of DA becomes the to-go trait and Critical strike becomes not needed at all, thief can easily grab full SA without any consequence or drawback. They can be even more survival with the newly buffed Acro or stay to their pvp/wvw trickery.

4. Anet basically makes SA a brain-dead traitline by giving you EVERYTHING, without the need of making choices. You get even MORE regen from going to stealth, you get initiative, you get -50% damage, you get cleanse all in one build, no choice has to be made. (Unless you want to go for the new venom build, and ONLY if you go for venom build)

5. All trait stats are merged to gears, so thief wouldn’t “sacrifice” dps to go for SA. Thieves are reluctent of choosing SA currently ONLY because they need to keep their dps by choosing critical strike and grab all the steal traits, that they don’t have points for SA. After the stat change, thief does not need to worry about losing dps anymore.

Consider all the factors above, that’s why the new SA will become OP.

Criticize me all you like, I understand thief player will like themselves to be OP in future. Who wouldn’t want their main class to be OP?

Yet in another post you claim you can kill virtually any thief outside one very specific build.

I do not see any of your concerns are credible given, in spite of significant enhancements to rangers you ask for yet more even as you claim thieves will be OP.

In short it all self serving and no real concern for balance. You want your ranger to be able to kill that last specific build with the same success you claim you have with all the others.

Yet you show 0 example as to why it’s not credible, proving you’re even less credible than me. People in the forum, especially those white knight defender of the class tend to disregard other people’s point of view by providing nothing, derilling the topic to something else (like other people’s post in other sub-forum), despite we already given our reasoning in great detail,

It doesn’t matter though. My reasonings are to be shown to the developers, not you.

Toxsa.2701:

babazhook.6805:

Toxsa.2701:

Impact.2780:

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself – thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster – that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Thieves don’t run SA “currently” for several reasons:

1. The offensive traits are scattered between Critical Strike and Deadly Art. Anet solved the problem by moving all the good traits to Deadly Art, and make Critical Strike neglitable, so thief only ever need to choose DA now (unless you’re in PVE)

2. Thief is one of the classes that benefits the most from choosing 3 full traitlines. Thief couldn’t choose SA currently only because they lack trait points to go BOTH offensive and defensive. Now with 3 full lines, they’re able to go offensive and defensive at the same time, thus making SA’s defensive much more accessible.

3. Combine the feature of DA becomes the to-go trait and Critical strike becomes not needed at all, thief can easily grab full SA without any consequence or drawback. They can be even more survival with the newly buffed Acro or stay to their pvp/wvw trickery.

4. Anet basically makes SA a brain-dead traitline by giving you EVERYTHING, without the need of making choices. You get even MORE regen from going to stealth, you get initiative, you get -50% damage, you get cleanse all in one build, no choice has to be made. (Unless you want to go for the new venom build, and ONLY if you go for venom build)

5. All trait stats are merged to gears, so thief wouldn’t “sacrifice” dps to go for SA. Thieves are reluctent of choosing SA currently ONLY because they need to keep their dps by choosing critical strike and grab all the steal traits, that they don’t have points for SA. After the stat change, thief does not need to worry about losing dps anymore.

Consider all the factors above, that’s why the new SA will become OP.

Criticize me all you like, I understand thief player will like themselves to be OP in future. Who wouldn’t want their main class to be OP?

Yet in another post you claim you can kill virtually any thief outside one very specific build.

I do not see any of your concerns are credible given, in spite of significant enhancements to rangers you ask for yet more even as you claim thieves will be OP.

In short it all self serving and no real concern for balance. You want your ranger to be able to kill that last specific build with the same success you claim you have with all the others.

Yet you show 0 example as to why it’s not credible, proving you’re even less credible than me. People in the forum, especially those white knight defender of the class tend to disregard other people’s point of view by providing nothing, derilling the topic to something else (like other people’s post in other sub-forum), despite we already given our reasoning in great detail,

It doesn’t matter though. My reasonings are to be shown to the developers, not you.

Listen to the devs on this

Maugetarr.6823:

Toxsa.2701:

babazhook.6805:

Toxsa.2701:

Impact.2780:

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself – thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster – that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

Thieves don’t run SA “currently” for several reasons:

1. The offensive traits are scattered between Critical Strike and Deadly Art. Anet solved the problem by moving all the good traits to Deadly Art, and make Critical Strike neglitable, so thief only ever need to choose DA now (unless you’re in PVE)

2. Thief is one of the classes that benefits the most from choosing 3 full traitlines. Thief couldn’t choose SA currently only because they lack trait points to go BOTH offensive and defensive. Now with 3 full lines, they’re able to go offensive and defensive at the same time, thus making SA’s defensive much more accessible.

3. Combine the feature of DA becomes the to-go trait and Critical strike becomes not needed at all, thief can easily grab full SA without any consequence or drawback. They can be even more survival with the newly buffed Acro or stay to their pvp/wvw trickery.

4. Anet basically makes SA a brain-dead traitline by giving you EVERYTHING, without the need of making choices. You get even MORE regen from going to stealth, you get initiative, you get -50% damage, you get cleanse all in one build, no choice has to be made. (Unless you want to go for the new venom build, and ONLY if you go for venom build)

5. All trait stats are merged to gears, so thief wouldn’t “sacrifice” dps to go for SA. Thieves are reluctent of choosing SA currently ONLY because they need to keep their dps by choosing critical strike and grab all the steal traits, that they don’t have points for SA. After the stat change, thief does not need to worry about losing dps anymore.

Consider all the factors above, that’s why the new SA will become OP.

Criticize me all you like, I understand thief player will like themselves to be OP in future. Who wouldn’t want their main class to be OP?

Yet in another post you claim you can kill virtually any thief outside one very specific build.

I do not see any of your concerns are credible given, in spite of significant enhancements to rangers you ask for yet more even as you claim thieves will be OP.

In short it all self serving and no real concern for balance. You want your ranger to be able to kill that last specific build with the same success you claim you have with all the others.

Yet you show 0 example as to why it’s not credible, proving you’re even less credible than me. People in the forum, especially those white knight defender of the class tend to disregard other people’s point of view by providing nothing, derilling the topic to something else (like other people’s post in other sub-forum), despite we already given our reasoning in great detail,

It doesn’t matter though. My reasonings are to be shown to the developers, not you.

Listen to the devs on this

Nice!

MidoriMarch.8067:

Now that Cloacked in Shadow moved to GM trait… We D/D thieves cant use both shadow rejuv and cloaked in shadow.. which is pretty much hard nerf to d/d set since CnD = followed by cloaked in shadow (Blind) was our offensive and defensive move along with shadow’s rejuv now they have taken that blind and its pretty ridiculous.. Anet has been nerfing thieves so hard Q.Q..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ-Nwt6K8wY

Now even necro hits even harder than thieves and its AOE and has much better survival.. now its kinda pointless to roll thieves when we sacrifice so much defensive and yet we does less damage than other professions..

7k-12k damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZuwjrAypkc

I even have video evidence of thief with 12k-18k damage

enjoy last video:158k Daggerstorm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50tXWckEOJs

This thread is joke.

Last: all thief “nerf” is joke.

When the joke is over: serious action will happen to thief profession.

Man, now all we’re missing are Sandeskul and Burnfall.

Zero Day.2594:

Man, now all we’re missing are Sandeskul and Burnfall.

Don’t forget Columba too.

@DarkSyze.8627

u are the 1 whos joking LOL…

in order to get that amount of damage on thief u have to basically sacrifice most of defensive stats to get that number and it forces u to use assassin’s signet which basically tells that if u cannot kill the opponent in 1 combo chain u will get screwed and so obvious that build is squishy as hell.

MidoriMarch.8067:

@DarkSyze.8627

u are the 1 whos joking LOL…

in order to get that amount of damage on thief u have to basically sacrifice most of defensive stats to get that number and it forces u to use assassin’s signet which basically tells that if u cannot kill the opponent in 1 combo chain u will get screwed and so obvious that build is squishy as hell.

Umm, after the patch you don’t sacrifice anything. Your stats are all moved to gears, and you only need Deadly Art for that damage.

Maugetarr.6823:

Zero Day.2594:

Man, now all we’re missing are Sandeskul and Burnfall.

Don’t forget Columba too.

Must have missed him.

Just imagine all of them here right now…