Guild Wars 2

So I decided to give s/d a try and holy smokes if by some form of miracle you actually manage to land the 2 hits (like maybe your opponent had to go take a s*** mid fight and went afk), they do such pitiful damage for a 4 ini skill that I don’t know why anyone would bother using it.

In pvp this ability does suck but in pve this ability is really helpfull for ripping boons off of enemies. There is a time and place for every skill unfortunately in pvp that almost never appears.

I think it’d be good if they just sped it up.

Keep in mind stability is a boon and it can be removed. Boon rip and then daze steal someone out of an “uninterruptable” elite for good times.

If both hit, it actually has good single target damage for the init spent. But it’s a long animation, so the DPS blows.

If the second hit misses, both DPI and DPS suck. Maybe a quick fix could be to balance more of the damage to be front-loaded? Swap the damage of the 2 attacks?

The problem with Flanking Strike is that it is so unreliable. It only really hits stationary enemies and when the enemy is moving the evade may send you in the completely opposite direction you want to go. The skill itself is pretty nice for it’s cost, it removes a boon, does evade and deals comparative damage to C&D for less initiative but that is only if both parts of the skill hit.

The solution to this problem is to improve the likelyhood that the skill hits. For this reason I think they should split the skill into a chain skill. Make the first skill in the chain the first attack that does the smaller hit + evade and the second skill the more damaging sword strike. Naturally the initiative cost would be split between the skills, either in a 2-2 or 3-1 split. This makes the skill much more useful because:

• You become much more likely to hit with the second attack regardless of where the evade takes you since you control if or when the second strike happens.
• If your first attack misses, you are not locked into a useless animation that takes up more time since you aren’t forced to use the second attack if the evade moved you out of range.
• It gives the thief more control over the skill itself. It allows the thief to use the skill more for the evade or for just the boon removal if they want to save initiative or for more damage with the complete chain.

Enenion.8127:

The problem with Flanking Strike is that it is so unreliable. It only really hits stationary enemies and when the enemy is moving the evade may send you in the completely opposite direction you want to go. The skill itself is pretty nice for it’s cost, it removes a boon, does evade and deals comparative damage to C&D for less initiative but that is only if both parts of the skill hit.

This is all very true.

Enenion.8127:

The solution to this problem is to improve the likelyhood that the skill hits. For this reason I think they should split the skill into a chain skill. Make the first skill in the chain the first attack that does the smaller hit + evade and the second skill the more damaging sword strike. Naturally the initiative cost would be split between the skills, either in a 2-2 or 3-1 split. This makes the skill much more useful because:

• You become much more likely to hit with the second attack regardless of where the evade takes you since you control if or when the second strike happens.
• If your first attack misses, you are not locked into a useless animation that takes up more time since you aren’t forced to use the second attack if the evade moved you out of range.
• It gives the thief more control over the skill itself. It allows the thief to use the skill more for the evade or for just the boon removal if they want to save initiative or for more damage with the complete chain.

And this is an excellent suggestion. I sincerely hope the skill behaves this way one day.

Comparative damage to CnD? HA HA HA.
CnD in sPvP gear (zerkers) has a tooltip damage of 1290, FS has a tooltip of 645 + 1290 this of course assumes that FS works perfectly every time, and it’s 2 less initiative than CnD.

Although, it really needs to be faster in animation, a 10-20 range boost (hotfix) and an actual fix to the whole “flank”/evade part that affects S/x rangers and S/D thieves… personally I’d like to see a double 250 range shadow step with striking and a rename of the skill and maybe a +1 initiative cost (step strike, step strike, done).

Enenion.8127:

The problem with Flanking Strike is that it is so unreliable. It only really hits stationary enemies and when the enemy is moving the evade may send you in the completely opposite direction you want to go. The skill itself is pretty nice for it’s cost, it removes a boon, does evade and deals comparative damage to C&D for less initiative but that is only if both parts of the skill hit.

The solution to this problem is to improve the likelyhood that the skill hits. For this reason I think they should split the skill into a chain skill. Make the first skill in the chain the first attack that does the smaller hit + evade and the second skill the more damaging sword strike. Naturally the initiative cost would be split between the skills, either in a 2-2 or 3-1 split. This makes the skill much more useful because:

• You become much more likely to hit with the second attack regardless of where the evade takes you since you control if or when the second strike happens.
• If your first attack misses, you are not locked into a useless animation that takes up more time since you aren’t forced to use the second attack if the evade moved you out of range.
• It gives the thief more control over the skill itself. It allows the thief to use the skill more for the evade or for just the boon removal if they want to save initiative or for more damage with the complete chain.

Very good analysis, I agree in general.

Having a 2 stage shadow step chain (and a fix to the flank moves in general) also sounds good.

I think the gap between the first and second strike is actually really beneficial for me. I often get in to the thick of a battle, and I will ignore the second strike and hit it once or twice more for the evasive effect while still dealing damage. I think perhaps instead of having the skill chain, another alternative would be to change the auto-attack to the second strike which you can choose to trigger or use FS again for the boon strip. Just a thought.

It’s the only way to remove boons unless you invest into trickery so it has its uses but the animation is just garbage and it misses 90% of the time vs anyone decent unfortunately. I wouldn’t even fathom using the skill before I dancing dagger someone, they simply HAVE to be snared for this skill to hit, making the actual initiative cost more like 8, unless my only goal is to remove a boon.

I don’t really mind since the first strike removes, if it was the second I would rage hard.

Going to the side of the enemy rather than moving around aimlessly is better. This skill really sucks.

i disagree with most of you…this is just my opinion but i like this skill

after i daze them, they generally want to hit you as hard as possible as soon as the daze comes off, this is where FS is awesome, as you evade there big hit, and end up away from the damger zone and then can c+d into daze again

the boon removal is just a bonus and if you land both attacks, it can hit for 7k.. ppl complaining about the damage output are crazy.. its one of the thieves biggest damage attacks.. going on base dmg from alot of the build sites, backstab hits for 585 while FS hits for 548 (183+365).

sure the pathing of it is shockingly unpredictable so you shouldnt use it all the time. but the evade is excellent, boon removal is great and if you lucky, the damge is awesome…..if they just fixing the animation so you dont spin half way off the map, it would def be my fav skill

bomber.1540:

i disagree with most of you…this is just my opinion but i like this skill

after i daze them, they generally want to hit you as hard as possible as soon as the daze comes off, this is where FS is awesome, as you evade there big hit, and end up away from the damger zone and then can c+d into daze again

the boon removal is just a bonus and if you land both attacks, it can hit for 7k.. ppl complaining about the damage output are crazy.. its one of the thieves biggest damage attacks.. going on base dmg from alot of the build sites, backstab hits for 585 while FS hits for 548 (183+365).

sure the pathing of it is shockingly unpredictable so you shouldnt use it all the time. but the evade is excellent, boon removal is great and if you lucky, the damge is awesome…..if they just fixing the animation so you dont spin half way off the map, it would def be my fav skill

No.

FS is not good at all in PvP.
Alotugh the damage is fine, the point is that this game has AUTO-FACING, so that your enemy will follow your animation and hit you in that nice frame where the attack doesn’t evade ( second hit).

Oh, sorry, it’s not a frame, it’s FREAKING second long animation.

Most other professions’ autoattack hit faster than the evade animation time, so that they’ll follow your toon while evading ( PvP is not like PvE, where enemies hit slow and are predictable, so that you can easily avoid the strike and their auto-facing won’t be triggered).

I’ve tried it with a friend of mine, and it seems that only ranged auto-attacks ( since they’ve quite long casting times) and warriors’ hammer are slow enough to allow FS to not trigger auto-facing ( effectively putting you behindot to the side): in other situations, just keeping on autoattacking is enough to make this skil totally useless if not for the damage ( that you’ll get back in the 1 second-wide second hit animation, since you’re a thief and you’re squishy by default).

This skill is completely garbage, and people defending it are not experienced enough, or didn’t do enough testing.

Mrbig.8019:

No.

FS is not good at all in PvP.
Alotugh the damage is fine, the point is that this game has AUTO-FACING, so that your enemy will follow your animation and hit you in that nice frame where the attack doesn’t evade ( second hit).

Oh, sorry, it’s not a frame, it’s FREAKING second long animation.

Most other professions’ autoattack hit faster than the evade animation time, so that they’ll follow your toon while evading ( PvP is not like PvE, where enemies hit slow and are predictable, so that you can easily avoid the strike and their auto-facing won’t be triggered).

I’ve tried it with a friend of mine, and it seems that only ranged auto-attacks ( since they’ve quite long casting times) and warriors’ hammer are slow enough to allow FS to not trigger auto-facing ( effectively putting you behindot to the side): in other situations, just keeping on autoattacking is enough to make this skil totally useless if not for the damage ( that you’ll get back in the 1 second-wide second hit animation, since you’re a thief and you’re squishy by default).

This skill is completely garbage, and people defending it are not experienced enough, or didn’t do enough testing.

The skill isn’t completely garbage.
I want to know if you guys have really tried it out seriously.
Above all, it comes in combination with Sword+Dagger, a build which can provide easy dazechains, nice mobility and annoyment to the enemy.
Second, it not only strips a boon and has low initiative cost, but it also gives you an evade.

That skill is incredibly powerful against any bunker which relies on boons. Just try it out against guardian and you’ll see how they die fast with their boons stripped each time you use flanking strike.
Plus, the damage output is good. It deals about 2k+3k of damage, which is a total of 5k. More then enough when you consider the extra effects it gives and the low initiative cost.

Not every build is made up to be glass-cannon instant-kill, S/D is one of this build.

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

No.

FS is not good at all in PvP.
Alotugh the damage is fine, the point is that this game has AUTO-FACING, so that your enemy will follow your animation and hit you in that nice frame where the attack doesn’t evade ( second hit).

Oh, sorry, it’s not a frame, it’s FREAKING second long animation.

Most other professions’ autoattack hit faster than the evade animation time, so that they’ll follow your toon while evading ( PvP is not like PvE, where enemies hit slow and are predictable, so that you can easily avoid the strike and their auto-facing won’t be triggered).

I’ve tried it with a friend of mine, and it seems that only ranged auto-attacks ( since they’ve quite long casting times) and warriors’ hammer are slow enough to allow FS to not trigger auto-facing ( effectively putting you behindot to the side): in other situations, just keeping on autoattacking is enough to make this skil totally useless if not for the damage ( that you’ll get back in the 1 second-wide second hit animation, since you’re a thief and you’re squishy by default).

This skill is completely garbage, and people defending it are not experienced enough, or didn’t do enough testing.

The skill isn’t completely garbage.
I want to know if you guys have really tried it out seriously.
Above all, it comes in combination with Sword+Dagger, a build which can provide easy dazechains, nice mobility and annoyment to the enemy.
Second, it not only strips a boon and has low initiative cost, but it also gives you an evade.

That skill is incredibly powerful against any bunker which relies on boons. Just try it out against guardian and you’ll see how they die fast with their boons stripped each time you use flanking strike.
Plus, the damage output is good. It deals about 2k+3k of damage, which is a total of 5k. More then enough when you consider the extra effects it gives and the low initiative cost.

Not every build is made up to be glass-cannon instant-kill, S/D is one of this build.

Its a powerful skill, as long as the pathing doesn’t get you killed by taking you completely out of position against your will. They should really fix that.

FrozenLuv.6017:

Its a powerful skill, as long as the pathing doesn’t get you killed by taking you completely out of position against your will. They should really fix that.

Path doesn’t get you killed
I can use that skill also as a gap closer and it works really good. Pathing is fine.

sorrow.2364:

FrozenLuv.6017:

Its a powerful skill, as long as the pathing doesn’t get you killed by taking you completely out of position against your will. They should really fix that.

Path doesn’t get you killed
I can use that skill also as a gap closer and it works really good. Pathing is fine.

But sometimes its just too unpredictable for it to hit twice on anything that isn’t standing still. The either the pathing or the tracking for the skill needs to be improved.

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

No.

FS is not good at all in PvP.
Alotugh the damage is fine, the point is that this game has AUTO-FACING, so that your enemy will follow your animation and hit you in that nice frame where the attack doesn’t evade ( second hit).

Oh, sorry, it’s not a frame, it’s FREAKING second long animation.

Most other professions’ autoattack hit faster than the evade animation time, so that they’ll follow your toon while evading ( PvP is not like PvE, where enemies hit slow and are predictable, so that you can easily avoid the strike and their auto-facing won’t be triggered).

I’ve tried it with a friend of mine, and it seems that only ranged auto-attacks ( since they’ve quite long casting times) and warriors’ hammer are slow enough to allow FS to not trigger auto-facing ( effectively putting you behindot to the side): in other situations, just keeping on autoattacking is enough to make this skil totally useless if not for the damage ( that you’ll get back in the 1 second-wide second hit animation, since you’re a thief and you’re squishy by default).

This skill is completely garbage, and people defending it are not experienced enough, or didn’t do enough testing.

The skill isn’t completely garbage.
I want to know if you guys have really tried it out seriously.
Above all, it comes in combination with Sword+Dagger, a build which can provide easy dazechains, nice mobility and annoyment to the enemy.
Second, it not only strips a boon and has low initiative cost, but it also gives you an evade.

That skill is incredibly powerful against any bunker which relies on boons. Just try it out against guardian and you’ll see how they die fast with their boons stripped each time you use flanking strike.
Plus, the damage output is good. It deals about 2k+3k of damage, which is a total of 5k. More then enough when you consider the extra effects it gives and the low initiative cost.

Not every build is made up to be glass-cannon instant-kill, S/D is one of this build.

The boon stripping was is not the problem: it’s good.

The problems are:

1: the skill doesn’t evade reliably, having a pretty high mirror of vulnerability in the secondo hit, making it sub-par to DB as an evasive move.

2: the pathing gets wrong as soon as the enemy moves. While you can move while dealing the second strike, it’s very, VERY hard to follow your opponent if he’s not crippled/chilled.
Against targets with swiftness, it will almost never hit.

3: auto-facing prevents getting flanking bonuses. Plus they will follow your moves as long as their moves are fast enough, so that you won’t get any positioning/surprise advantage.

Again,

FS
IS
GARBAGE.

Mrbig.8019:

The boon stripping was is not the problem: it’s good.

The problems are:

1: the skill doesn’t evade reliably, having a pretty high mirror of vulnerability in the secondo hit, making it sub-par to DB as an evasive move.

2: the pathing gets wrong as soon as the enemy moves. While you can move while dealing the second strike, it’s very, VERY hard to follow your opponent if he’s not crippled/chilled.
Against targets with swiftness, it will almost never hit.

3: auto-facing prevents getting flanking bonuses. Plus they will follow your moves as long as their moves are fast enough, so that you won’t get any positioning/surprise advantage.

Again,

FS
IS
GARBAGE.

1. The second hit is just like a sword autoattack which deals more damage after the evade. If you need to evade, just dodge and cancel it. FS isn’t just an evasive move, it strip one boon on a cost of 4 initiative, which is more than enough to consider it worth to have on your bar. Don’t forget that Death Blossom costs 5 initative, deals less damage and doesn’t strip any boon, so, after all, it isn’t sub-par compared to it.

2. Just like any melee range skill. I don’t see anything strange here, Flanking Strike isn’t a gap closer, neither a ranged skill. If it is hard to hit target with swiftness is just because they are kiting you, not because flanking strike is bad.

3. I really can’t understand it. Flanking Strike give an advantage only when dealing with melee channeled skills which root you in place, like Pistol Whip or Hundred Blades, it isn’t a counter to everything.

Flanking Strike is good, very good.

sorrow.2364:

1. The second hit is just like a sword autoattack which deals more damage after the evade.

Wouldn’t that be nice, but you’ve got it mixed up. The majority of the damage from the skill comes from the harder to land second hit. The initial strike is the one that has sword autoattack-level damage.

They can:
Reduce the initiative cost
-or-
Make the skill track better
-or-
Make the skill do more damage
-or
Make the skill evade better
-or-
Make the skill better at stripping boons (2 boons stripped, or 1 stolen instead of stripped)

…but as it stands the skill is mediocre at fulfilling any of these functions and, as a result of trying to do too many things at once, is less effective for doing anything.

You’re right that you can use it to force an evade to get out of Hundred Blades or something, but you could just as easily IF or dodge out, even without bringing movement utilities.

Flanking Strike is a somewhat unique skill, and useful, but just because it isn’t completely useless does not make it balanced.

Tulisin.6945:

Wouldn’t that be nice, but you’ve got it mixed up. The majority of the damage from the skill comes from the harder to land second hit. The initial strike is the one that has sword autoattack-level damage.

They can:
Reduce the initiative cost
-or-
Make the skill track better
-or-
Make the skill do more damage
-or
Make the skill evade better
-or-
Make the skill better at stripping boons (2 boons stripped, or 1 stolen instead of stripped)

…but as it stands the skill is mediocre at fulfilling any of these functions and, as a result of trying to do too many things at once, is less effective for doing anything.

You’re right that you can use it to force an evade to get out of Hundred Blades or something, but you could just as easily IF or dodge out, even without bringing movement utilities.

Flanking Strike is a somewhat unique skill, and useful, but just because it isn’t completely useless does not make it balanced.

Right now it is balanced.
It costs 4 initiative which is low compared to other dual skills looking at the effects.
It isn’t a damage skill, damage is just a plus, but it should’t be your main source of damage anyway.
It is an extra dodge when you are out of endurance at low cost, strip a boon and can deal heavy damage if you succed to stay in melee range at the second hit.

Reducing the initiative cost would make it unbalanced, because if you reduce the initiative more, it will be too cheap compared to its effects.
Come on, boon stripping, evade, repositioning and damage at 3 initiative? It would be crazy.

The skill now tracks just good. If you are in melee range, you’ll get your first hit landed at 100% chance. The second one isn’t sure, but to make sure it lands it is just a matter of staying in melee range. You know, you just need to pay some attention.

The skill damage is good according to its effects. Do you consider 5k damage if fully landed coupled with boon stripping and evade not enough?

What do you mean with “make the skill evade better”? The evade is an actual extra dodge which does not require endurance… What else do you want?

Stripping 2 boons? What? Stripping boon is hard in the whole game but making a skill which strips 2 boons at 4 initiative and no recharge is the dead of balance. Same if it steals boons, one boon removing on a skill with no recharge is enough. Just imagine if it steals boons… You can litterally steal the Signet of Rage effects and all the boons on a Guardian/Elementalist each time they cast them. Literally unbalanced.

The skill is useful, works well, is worth using and its effects aren’t too powerful, so it is balanced.
The fact that you thieves have better builds doesn’t mean that Flanking Strike need a buff, it means that other builds need a nerf.

sorrow.2364:

1. The second hit is just like a sword autoattack which deals more damage after the evade. If you need to evade, just dodge and cancel it. FS isn’t just an evasive move, it strip one boon on a cost of 4 initiative, which is more than enough to consider it worth to have on your bar. Don’t forget that Death Blossom costs 5 initative, deals less damage and doesn’t strip any boon, so, after all, it isn’t sub-par compared to it.

2. Just like any melee range skill. I don’t see anything strange here, Flanking Strike isn’t a gap closer, neither a ranged skill. If it is hard to hit target with swiftness is just because they are kiting you, not because flanking strike is bad.

3. I really can’t understand it. Flanking Strike give an advantage only when dealing with melee channeled skills which root you in place, like Pistol Whip or Hundred Blades, it isn’t a counter to everything.

Flanking Strike is good, very good.

It feels like discussing with a wall.

1. I don’t spend initiative to do an auto-attack. I spend 4 initiative ( 1/3 of my ini pool) to deal RELIABLY less damage than my auto-attack and to strip a boon.

DB doesn’t deal less damage, with a condition build it deals A LOT MORE damage than FS, even more since it bypasses toughness.

Even more, i don’t want to go specific because players playing tourneys know perfectly those situations when you REALLY need to strip a boon ( note: FS boon stripping works on the last one applied): this means that 95 % of the time, you’re better off with C&D+ tactical strike ( more damage, more utility, no bad positioning).

If you’re not doing so, you’re basically playing sub-par and wasting initiative.

If a move is sub-par 95% of the time, than something is wrong.

2. Again, i’m not wasting initiative for my “general” melee skill. In this case i’m wasting initiative.
FS is THE ONLY SKILL IN GAME ( along with shadow shot, due to the root problem) that gets totally screwed by simply stepping aside, due to its long, slow and unreliable animation.

3. Dodge is your friend. You don’t need to waste 4 ini to avoid “root ability” like those.
And if you want the damage, hey pro-tip, you can also dodge+ auto-attack.
Amazing !!!.
Keep on using FS if you like it so much, i’ll keep on dazelocking my opponent.

TL:DR;

FS is currently good only for the boon stripping part. The rest makes the skill only worse and unreliable.

Since the boon stripping part is good, they could totally remove any kind of damage (like they did with headshot) and that horrible animation and make the skill to cost 2-3 ini, maybe with it stealing the boon.

FS is not competitive, if you think it is you’re simply delusional.

Mrbig.8019:

It feels like discussing with a wall.

1. I don’t spend initiative to do an auto-attack. I spend 4 initiative ( 1/3 of my ini pool) to deal RELIABLY less damage than my auto-attack and to strip a boon.

DB doesn’t deal less damage, with a condition build it deals A LOT MORE damage than FS, even more since it bypasses toughness.

Even more, i don’t want to go specific because players playing tourneys know perfectly those situations when you REALLY need to strip a boon ( note: FS boon stripping works on the last one applied): this means that 95 % of the time, you’re better off with C&D+ tactical strike ( more damage, more utility, no bad positioning).

If you’re not doing so, you’re basically playing sub-par and wasting initiative.

If a move is sub-par 95% of the time, than something is wrong.

2. Again, i’m not wasting initiative for my “general” melee skill. In this case i’m wasting initiative.
FS is THE ONLY SKILL IN GAME ( along with shadow shot, due to the root problem) that gets totally screwed by simply stepping aside, due to its long, slow and unreliable animation.

3. Dodge is your friend. You don’t need to waste 4 ini to avoid “root ability” like those.
And if you want the damage, hey pro-tip, you can also dodge+ auto-attack.
Amazing !!!.
Keep on using FS if you like it so much, i’ll keep on dazelocking my opponent.

TL:DR;

FS is currently good only for the boon stripping part. The rest makes the skill only worse and unreliable.

Since the boon stripping part is good, they could totally remove any kind of damage (like they did with headshot) and that horrible animation and make the skill to cost 2-3 ini, maybe with it stealing the boon.

FS is not competitive, if you think it is you’re simply delusional.

1. … and to evade. Anyway Flanking Strike doesn’t deal less damage than your autoattack.
You have access to CnD and Tactical Strike also, but you won’t use it against a Guardian with tons of boon on it. It depends on the situations, of course. If it has a real use and it’s worth using, it is balanced. If you want FS to be changed so you can use it over and over again and probably base your whole build around it, like some thieves to with DB, then you have a weird idea of balance.

2. Are you joking, right?

3. What if you are out of endurance? Anyone else have to take all the damage, but you, if you are running FS, have one or two extra dodge if you have initiative left.

Now “removes 1 boon” totally useless against permastability|block boonuardian.
Against necromancers and rangers would have been better to leap.

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

It feels like discussing with a wall.

1. I don’t spend initiative to do an auto-attack. I spend 4 initiative ( 1/3 of my ini pool) to deal RELIABLY less damage than my auto-attack and to strip a boon.

DB doesn’t deal less damage, with a condition build it deals A LOT MORE damage than FS, even more since it bypasses toughness.

Even more, i don’t want to go specific because players playing tourneys know perfectly those situations when you REALLY need to strip a boon ( note: FS boon stripping works on the last one applied): this means that 95 % of the time, you’re better off with C&D+ tactical strike ( more damage, more utility, no bad positioning).

If you’re not doing so, you’re basically playing sub-par and wasting initiative.

If a move is sub-par 95% of the time, than something is wrong.

2. Again, i’m not wasting initiative for my “general” melee skill. In this case i’m wasting initiative.
FS is THE ONLY SKILL IN GAME ( along with shadow shot, due to the root problem) that gets totally screwed by simply stepping aside, due to its long, slow and unreliable animation.

3. Dodge is your friend. You don’t need to waste 4 ini to avoid “root ability” like those.
And if you want the damage, hey pro-tip, you can also dodge+ auto-attack.
Amazing !!!.
Keep on using FS if you like it so much, i’ll keep on dazelocking my opponent.

TL:DR;

FS is currently good only for the boon stripping part. The rest makes the skill only worse and unreliable.

Since the boon stripping part is good, they could totally remove any kind of damage (like they did with headshot) and that horrible animation and make the skill to cost 2-3 ini, maybe with it stealing the boon.

FS is not competitive, if you think it is you’re simply delusional.

1. … and to evade. Anyway Flanking Strike doesn’t deal less damage than your autoattack.
You have access to CnD and Tactical Strike also, but you won’t use it against a Guardian with tons of boon on it. It depends on the situations, of course. If it has a real use and it’s worth using, it is balanced. If you want FS to be changed so you can use it over and over again and probably base your whole build around it, like some thieves to with DB, then you have a weird idea of balance.

2. Are you joking, right?

3. What if you are out of endurance? Anyone else have to take all the damage, but you, if you are running FS, have one or two extra dodge if you have initiative left.

1. I don’t want to use it over and over, i want it to be EFFECTIVE, in order to be a solid alternative to my other moves.

A perfect example ( maybe the only one, along with the shortbow) is S/P:
you use your auto-attack to deal damage when you’re out of ini/you’re controlling the situation;

you can use Inf Strike to close the gap ( and trigger the Shadow Return to escape bad situations/remove a condition);

you use Pistol Whip to nuke your opponent;

you use Head Shot to interrupt heals/stomps/rez/nuke moves;

you use BPS in melee fights with auto-attacks, waiting for the nuke, and to support your allies.

EVERYTHING is equally useful. When everything is equally useful, it’s a symptom of good design.

In S/D ( and D/P , and P/P and P/D, basically all our sets aside D/D, which is kinda particular due to possible double specialization) this is not the case: C&D + tactical strike is almost ALWAYS better, if not in some particular situations against particular builds ( with “lulz boons” guardians the only one you really want to remove is the stability one, in order to keep on chain-dazing, since other ones, like retaliation, are being reapplied almost instantly).

This is the symptom of bad design.

2. Absolutely. A simple side-stepping can totally screw FS pathing, sometimes sending you out of nowhere.

This is not happening with skills with even longer animations, like Dragon’s tooth.
This also happens to Shadow shot, due to the root problem.

3. Using your ini to dodge is a waste, unless you’re doing it RELIABLY ( like DB) and you’re dealing RELIABLY tons of damage ( like DB).

If you’ve wasted your dodges to evade auto-attacks, you were outplayed.
If your opponent has more nukes than you can evade, than something in your build is wrong.

I never use FS if not in extremely specific situations, yet my opponent can’t hit me. I never run out of endu, because i dodge WHEN I NEED IT, i don’t spam my dodges.

And still there’s a wide time frame with FS when you’re hittable ( unlike DB), and you WILL BE HIT, since auto-facing turns the opponent exactly where you’re positioning yourself.
No positioning advantage, no reliable damage, only a boon strip.

For 4 ini.

Way too much, even more since with 4 ini i can deal good damage+ stealth+vulnerability+3 secs daze.

From what I remember when I tried it, FS was the only skill in the game that would start working less reliably when I was using speed boosts like the signet or receiving swiftness XD I tended to overshot the target by a lot for the second string and miss it the faster I was going.

Flanking Strike could certainly use some rework. I’m not a fan of the “untargeted” movement abilities like that and the Ranger Sword poison attack (Sword3?). A LOT of missing based on a highly delayed (albeit cool) animation.

I think it would be better if the player faded into a black shadow, then shadowstepped directly behind the opponent (if one is targeted, or to X distance forward, turned around, if no target) for the second hit as they fade back in. The shadowstep animation can have a black shadow trail on the ground similar to the Mesmer Staff2 teleport. This will help the other player track the movement.

I think the damage itself is ok.

Mrbig.8019:

1. I don’t want to use it over and over, i want it to be EFFECTIVE, in order to be a solid alternative to my other moves.

A perfect example ( maybe the only one, along with the shortbow) is S/P:
you use your auto-attack to deal damage when you’re out of ini/you’re controlling the situation;

you can use Inf Strike to close the gap ( and trigger the Shadow Return to escape bad situations/remove a condition);

you use Pistol Whip to nuke your opponent;

you use Head Shot to interrupt heals/stomps/rez/nuke moves;

you use BPS in melee fights with auto-attacks, waiting for the nuke, and to support your allies.

EVERYTHING is equally useful. When everything is equally useful, it’s a symptom of good design.

In S/D ( and D/P , and P/P and P/D, basically all our sets aside D/D, which is kinda particular due to possible double specialization) this is not the case: C&D + tactical strike is almost ALWAYS better, if not in some particular situations against particular builds ( with “lulz boons” guardians the only one you really want to remove is the stability one, in order to keep on chain-dazing, since other ones, like retaliation, are being reapplied almost instantly).

This is the symptom of bad design.

2. Absolutely. A simple side-stepping can totally screw FS pathing, sometimes sending you out of nowhere.

This is not happening with skills with even longer animations, like Dragon’s tooth.
This also happens to Shadow shot, due to the root problem.

3. Using your ini to dodge is a waste, unless you’re doing it RELIABLY ( like DB) and you’re dealing RELIABLY tons of damage ( like DB).

If you’ve wasted your dodges to evade auto-attacks, you were outplayed.
If your opponent has more nukes than you can evade, than something in your build is wrong.

I never use FS if not in extremely specific situations, yet my opponent can’t hit me. I never run out of endu, because i dodge WHEN I NEED IT, i don’t spam my dodges.

And still there’s a wide time frame with FS when you’re hittable ( unlike DB), and you WILL BE HIT, since auto-facing turns the opponent exactly where you’re positioning yourself.
No positioning advantage, no reliable damage, only a boon strip.

For 4 ini.

Way too much, even more since with 4 ini i can deal good damage+ stealth+vulnerability+3 secs daze.

1. Chain dazing and what? Dealing no damage? Also the chain daze uses 6 initiative, Flanking Strike only needs 4 and also have a great use, as you said, because it allow you to strip stability, strip protection to improve your damage, remove might/fury to reduce damage output and so on. Other than that, it is a free dodge when you are out of endurance, like I said hundreds of time, and you shouldn’t understimate this feature. It also deal more damage than the daze chain.

2. The pathing of FS is fine. The first strike always land if you are in melee range, the second one needs you to get closer to enemy if he moved, not to hard anyway. I don’t see any problem here.

3. There will always a situation when you have to dodge to avoid damage. You can’t, of course, avoid all bursts with just two dodges, so extra damage mitigation coming from FS isn’t that bad. Also, unlike DB, it doesn’t need that you spec into condition damage, forcing you to use Rabid or Carrion amulet, to deal good damage. You can still hit for 1k+ damage with your autoattack and 5k+ damage with flanking strike.
When you are running D/D with conditions, you are probably sacrificing raw damage to have condition damage, making all other D/D skills, like backstab or heartseeker less powerful. It is not the case of FS, of course.

So 4 initiative to stip a boon, evade and deal decent damage are more than enough.
Still, it is better than 5 initiative to apply 3 bleed stack, have a longer evade and having a good damage only if specced into conditions or using 6 initiative to have 2s of daze, less damage and 3 stacks of vulnerability.

sorrow.2364:

So 4 initiative to stip a boon, evade and deal decent damage are more than enough.
Still, it is better than 5 initiative to apply 3 bleed stack, have a longer evade and having a good damage only if specced into conditions or using 6 initiative to have 2s of daze, less damage and 3 stacks of vulnerability.

Using 6 initiative to get 2s of daze gives you more damage than using Flanking Strike. Don’t forget that C&D hurts quite a lot by itself. It does supposedly as much damage as FS second hit.

stof.9341:

sorrow.2364:

So 4 initiative to stip a boon, evade and deal decent damage are more than enough.
Still, it is better than 5 initiative to apply 3 bleed stack, have a longer evade and having a good damage only if specced into conditions or using 6 initiative to have 2s of daze, less damage and 3 stacks of vulnerability.

Using 6 initiative to get 2s of daze gives you more damage than using Flanking Strike. Don’t forget that C&D hurts quite a lot by itself. It does supposedly as much damage as FS second hit.

But the damage is still less.
Anyway you are comparing 2 skills which are in the same bar.. This doesn’t make so much sense.
Also, when dazing your opponent, you are going to get the revealed debuff for 3 seconds, which make you exposed for that amount of time while, with FS, you get about a second of evade without drawbacks.
Plus, while you can use FS for 3-4 times in a row, you can use the daze combo only 2 times with your initiative bar, dealing also less damage and, most important, without stripping any boon.
Don’t understimate the boon stripping effect.

sorrow.2364:

But the damage is still less.

no
dps “1” > dps “3”

sorrow.2364:

But the damage is still less.
Anyway you are comparing 2 skills which are in the same bar.. This doesn’t make so much sense.
Also, when dazing your opponent, you are going to get the revealed debuff for 3 seconds, which make you exposed for that amount of time while, with FS, you get about a second of evade without drawbacks.
Plus, while you can use FS for 3-4 times in a row, you can use the daze combo only 2 times with your initiative bar, dealing also less damage and, most important, without stripping any boon.
Don’t understimate the boon stripping effect.

No, the damage is more. Tactical Strike does more damage when it connects than the first hit of Flanking Strike. With a level 10 trait, the daze combo only costs 4 initiative too. With the Mesmer runes the daze lasts nearly as long as the revealed debuff.

sorrow.2364:

with FS, you get about a second of evade without drawbacks.

You’re putting quite a lot of stock in FS’ evade. If it was half as good and reliable as you believe, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

sorrow.2364:

1. Chain dazing and what? Dealing no damage? Also the chain daze uses 6 initiative, Flanking Strike only needs 4 and also have a great use, as you said, because it allow you to strip stability, strip protection to improve your damage, remove might/fury to reduce damage output and so on. Other than that, it is a free dodge when you are out of endurance, like I said hundreds of time, and you shouldn’t understimate this feature. It also deal more damage than the daze chain.

2. The pathing of FS is fine. The first strike always land if you are in melee range, the second one needs you to get closer to enemy if he moved, not to hard anyway. I don’t see any problem here.

3. There will always a situation when you have to dodge to avoid damage. You can’t, of course, avoid all bursts with just two dodges, so extra damage mitigation coming from FS isn’t that bad. Also, unlike DB, it doesn’t need that you spec into condition damage, forcing you to use Rabid or Carrion amulet, to deal good damage. You can still hit for 1k+ damage with your autoattack and 5k+ damage with flanking strike.
When you are running D/D with conditions, you are probably sacrificing raw damage to have condition damage, making all other D/D skills, like backstab or heartseeker less powerful. It is not the case of FS, of course.

So 4 initiative to stip a boon, evade and deal decent damage are more than enough.
Still, it is better than 5 initiative to apply 3 bleed stack, have a longer evade and having a good damage only if specced into conditions or using 6 initiative to have 2s of daze, less damage and 3 stacks of vulnerability.

1. With infusion of shadow ( 1st tier in shadow arts) the combo costs 4 ini.

You’re comparing an unreliable evade+ unreliable damage+ boon stripping to a reliable damage+3 secs daze+stealth ( that traited can restore more than 1k health+ remove conditions and even more)+ 3 secs vulnerability.

All while dealing about the same damage ( if not more) not counting the damage you can do while your opponent is dazed and can’t react.

Sorry, i’ll take C&D+ tactical strike ALL THE TIME.

2. You’re the only one thinking the path is fine. I’ve never been hit by flanking strike second hit if not when i was not paying attention ( while fighting someone else), and i were secretly laughing since that guy used it instead of dazelocking me to death.

If people allowed you to land the second strike, they were so bad they’re not even able to press the “strafe left” keybind.

3. The argument is absurd. “you’re not forced to build for condition damage to use FS, unlike DB” is the same as saying " you’re not forced to build for power to use DB, unlike FS".

Fact is DB evade is more reliable than FS, making it an overall better evasive move ( perma-evade thieves build for condition damage in order to MAXIMIZE the damage from DB, not viceversa, evading a lot more than with FS).

If they build for condition damage with D/D they know perfectly they won’t use backstab or heartseekeer, but 4/6 of D/D attacks are perfectly viable ( Dancing dagger, C&D and auto-attack).

Not for casualty i said D/D is a special set, with a double specialization.

On the other side, when i build for S/D, since S/D is not a strange case at all, i would RELLY LOVE if all my moves worked well, like with S/P and shortbow.

Please stop this nonsense, especially since no one agrees ( and will ever) with you.

Mrbig.8019:

sorrow.2364:

1. Chain dazing and what? Dealing no damage? Also the chain daze uses 6 initiative, Flanking Strike only needs 4 and also have a great use, as you said, because it allow you to strip stability, strip protection to improve your damage, remove might/fury to reduce damage output and so on. Other than that, it is a free dodge when you are out of endurance, like I said hundreds of time, and you shouldn’t understimate this feature. It also deal more damage than the daze chain.

2. The pathing of FS is fine. The first strike always land if you are in melee range, the second one needs you to get closer to enemy if he moved, not to hard anyway. I don’t see any problem here.

3. There will always a situation when you have to dodge to avoid damage. You can’t, of course, avoid all bursts with just two dodges, so extra damage mitigation coming from FS isn’t that bad. Also, unlike DB, it doesn’t need that you spec into condition damage, forcing you to use Rabid or Carrion amulet, to deal good damage. You can still hit for 1k+ damage with your autoattack and 5k+ damage with flanking strike.
When you are running D/D with conditions, you are probably sacrificing raw damage to have condition damage, making all other D/D skills, like backstab or heartseeker less powerful. It is not the case of FS, of course.

So 4 initiative to stip a boon, evade and deal decent damage are more than enough.
Still, it is better than 5 initiative to apply 3 bleed stack, have a longer evade and having a good damage only if specced into conditions or using 6 initiative to have 2s of daze, less damage and 3 stacks of vulnerability.

1. With infusion of shadow ( 1st tier in shadow arts) the combo costs 4 ini.

You’re comparing an unreliable evade+ unreliable damage+ boon stripping to a reliable damage+3 secs daze+stealth ( that traited can restore more than 1k health+ remove conditions and even more)+ 3 secs vulnerability.

All while dealing about the same damage ( if not more) not counting the damage you can do while your opponent is dazed and can’t react.

Sorry, i’ll take C&D+ tactical strike ALL THE TIME.

2. You’re the only one thinking the path is fine. I’ve never been hit by flanking strike second hit if not when i was not paying attention ( while fighting someone else), and i were secretly laughing since that guy used it instead of dazelocking me to death.

If people allowed you to land the second strike, they were so bad they’re not even able to press the “strafe left” keybind.

3. The argument is absurd. “you’re not forced to build for condition damage to use FS, unlike DB” is the same as saying " you’re not forced to build for power to use DB, unlike FS".

Fact is DB evade is more reliable than FS, making it an overall better evasive move ( perma-evade thieves build for condition damage in order to MAXIMIZE the damage from DB, not viceversa, evading a lot more than with FS).

If they build for condition damage with D/D they know perfectly they won’t use backstab or heartseekeer, but 4/6 of D/D attacks are perfectly viable ( Dancing dagger, C&D and auto-attack).

Not for casualty i said D/D is a special set, with a double specialization.

On the other side, when i build for S/D, since S/D is not a strange case at all, i would RELLY LOVE if all my moves worked well, like with S/P and shortbow.

Please stop this nonsense, especially since no one agrees ( and will ever) with you.

None agrees with not because my logic makes no sense, it’s because you have your point of view extremely spoilt by some bad designed weapon sets which rely on only one skill/combo, like s/p and d/d. FS has an use, also of it stripped just one boon without the evade or the damage it would be good. You can’t say that a combo in the same build is preferred in most situations so FS is unbalanced. It’s like saying that stunbreakers are weak because you can use protection. This makes absolutely no sense. I think that every other profession would be very happy to have that skill on their bar, because it is very, very useful.

I agree with several of Sorrow’s points, and object to anyone thinking they can speak for me without consent. The skill needs work though, not a complete overhaul or a scrapping, but it does need some work.

1) Pathing. I think the biggest complaint about the skill is the pathing. If its not a simple matter, then the suggestion that seems to be the most common is to make it a shadowstep to the rear of the target.

2) The evade. Personally, this evade has saved my bacon more times than I could count, and has let me go toe to toe with many targets I otherwise couldn’t have. I have spent most of my time as a thief (which is most of my GW2 time) in S/D style, so I have a lot of practice with it. That being said, you do have to cut it a bit to close, and it could really use some forgiveness in its execution.

3) First Strike strips a boon AND is unblockable something that seems to be forgotten in this thread. How many of these can you get off in 3 seconds if you skip the second strike? My count so far is 3.

4) Landing that second strike. I don’t know, maybe it doesn’t work that well in TPVP, don’t care either, for me its an unimportant game mode, maybe its so amazingly fast paced that the half second it takes to make the second hit connect is all someone needs to escape it. I feel two things, one that the second hit could use a slight boost in delivery speed, and two, I feel sorry for the people using the skill that don’t realize they can chase after a target and still hit.

It’s not the worst skill in the game, it could use some improvements yes, for certain, but it isn’t garbage. It’s just a move that requires finesse and practice.

Ravrohan.8231:

It’s just a move that requires finesse and practice.

I’d really like to believe this, because I don’t mind an ability with some depth that takes some investment to really shine. Infiltrator’s Arrow is a good example of this, an ability that works well being used casually but is incredible once you’re mastered it. But the fact of the matter is that FS’ propensity to rip control of your character works against it being a skill-heavy ability and decreases the degree to which you can affect it with “finesse and practice”.

1. Chain dazing and what? Dealing no damage?

Just a heads up, chain dazing people while autoattacking actually does a ton of damage. It may not be as much damage as spamming flanking strike (provided the target is stationary so you don’t get screwed by the pathing), but you’ve actually implied multiple times that you don’t spam the ability and think that it shouldn’t be a spam ability anyways.

On top of that, chain dazing a person in a fight effectively NULLIFIES THAT PERSON. :O Regardless of whether they’re dead, they’re not doing anything while being chain dazed. That’s significantly more powerful than flanking strike, ignoring cnd damage and autoattack damage. Throw in the fact that the sword chain with a zerker amulet and 30 points in CS with executioner (which pretty much every thief that’s not a condition thief runs with) can kill a medium armor golem in about 6secs, and I really don’t see why you’re acting like chain dazing isn’t a better route than flanking strike.

Yea, when you need a boon stripped, using flanking is a good idea. For nearly every other situation? I’d rather chain daze. Especially if I’m running a heavy shadow arts S/D spec.

edit Just thought I’d throw in, I play s/d a lot, it’s actually my absolute favorite thief weapon set, and I love the concept of flanking strike. But it does need improvements. It’s ALMOST in a good place right now, but not quite.

sorrow.2364:

None agrees with not because my logic makes no sense, it’s because you have your point of view extremely spoilt by some bad designed weapon sets which rely on only one skill/combo, like s/p and d/d. FS has an use, also of it stripped just one boon without the evade or the damage it would be good. You can’t say that a combo in the same build is preferred in most situations so FS is unbalanced. It’s like saying that stunbreakers are weak because you can use protection. This makes absolutely no sense. I think that every other profession would be very happy to have that skill on their bar, because it is very, very useful.

S/P is a perfect set, only NOOBS spam pistol whip, and only WORSE NOOBS get beaten by it.

With S/P every move is functional, and every move has its use.

This is not the case with S/D: FS basically has no use and no tactical advantage over C&D+ tactical strike if not in those situations when you want to rip off stability ( kinda funny with dagger storming thieves).

Again, the boon ripping is great. But since the rest of the move is unreliable ( evade+ damage) it’s not a solid investment to use 4 ini for it.

In order to make it viable, S/D should

1) evade more reliably (full evade like DB)
2) be faster, in order to make the second hit to, well, actually HIT.

OR

1b) be completely rehauled into something else.

Otherwise the trade off is not fair, especially since you have C&D+ tactical strike for the same cost.

It’s actually rather easy, since Swork skills and Dagger skills melt perfectly, and they would redo only the dual.

I actually like FS.
I just wish that the second strike would hit a little harder since it rarely hits. That way, if it does hit, it is worth it.

Though they need to definitely fix it with SoS.

Ravrohan.8231:

3) First Strike strips a boon AND is unblockable something that seems to be forgotten in this thread.

Is it truly unblockable, or rather, does it strip Aegis? There’s a difference.

Mrbig.8019:

S/P is a perfect set, only NOOBS spam pistol whip, and only WORSE NOOBS get beaten by it.

With S/P every move is functional, and every move has its use.

This is not the case with S/D: FS basically has no use and no tactical advantage over C&D+ tactical strike if not in those situations when you want to rip off stability ( kinda funny with dagger storming thieves).

Again, the boon ripping is great. But since the rest of the move is unreliable ( evade+ damage) it’s not a solid investment to use 4 ini for it.

In order to make it viable, S/D should

1) evade more reliably (full evade like DB)
2) be faster, in order to make the second hit to, well, actually HIT.

OR

1b) be completely rehauled into something else.

Otherwise the trade off is not fair, especially since you have C&D+ tactical strike for the same cost.

It’s actually rather easy, since Swork skills and Dagger skills melt perfectly, and they would redo only the dual.

Let’s try to stay in topic. I don’t care if people who spam Pistol Whip/Backstab/Heartseeker are noobs or not, the fact is that you can be more effective than you should when relying on only one skill.

FS has lots of advantages over CnD + Tactical strike when the target has at least one boon.
Do you know what stripping one boon means? Depending on the boon stripped:
- Aegis: the attack is unblockable
- Fury: your target has -20% critical chance
- Might: your target has -35 power per stack.
- Protection: you deal 50% more damage
- Regeneration: you deal ~150 damage per second
- Retaliation: you don’t take >267 damage per hit
- Stability: you can CC your enemy which is otherwise uncontrolled.
- Swiftness: your enemy moves 25% slower
- Vigor: your enemy’s endurange regenerates 50% slower.

Now you’ll see that only one of those effects makes FS worth using over CnD + Tactical Strike at the cost of 4 initiative, also considering that is the only easy to access way for thieves to strip boons.
You shouldn’t care about the evade, which is a nice plus, or the 2nd sword attack, which is also a well accepted extra.

The evade is also a great thing. Just imagine you are in a fight against more people focusing on you and, to survive, you finished your endurance. Now imagine that a burst is coming to you, like Dragon’s Tooth or BC+HB combo. If you have 4 initiative with S/D left you can survive and manage to leave the battle. CnD won’t save your kitten in this situation, FS can.

Who cares if the second hit doesn’t land? If you are good (because it is about being good) and succed to land it, fine, if not, you invested your initiative well anyway IF you used it on a target with a boon.

CnD doesn’t cost 4 initiative. It still cost 6 initiative, but if you trait, when you stealth you gain 2 initiative. This means that if you have 4 or 5 initiative left, you can’t use CnD while you can use FS. Also, to make CnD “costs 4 initiative”, you have to invest precious trait points on Shadow Arts while FS doesn’t need it.

They are two different skills useful in different situations. There are some situations where CnD + TS is better than FS and some other when FS is better than CnD + TS.
It is absolutely untrue that CnD + TS is always better.

SFtheWolf.5179:

Ravrohan.8231:

3) First Strike strips a boon AND is unblockable something that seems to be forgotten in this thread.

Is it truly unblockable, or rather, does it strip Aegis? There’s a difference.

Truly unblockable. If someone has Aegis on, and is using a skill to block (not Aegis) you will punch through and strip aegis from them.

Simple fix: First strike stuns

Esturk.2183:

Simple fix: First strike stuns

And then give it Backstab damage, Death Blossom evade time, Stealth on second hit, 5 stacks of bleeding and gives you protection and retaliation.

Seriously guys, the skill is fine. Just move after your target and you’ll see the second strike will land too.

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

S/P is a perfect set, only NOOBS spam pistol whip, and only WORSE NOOBS get beaten by it.

With S/P every move is functional, and every move has its use.

This is not the case with S/D: FS basically has no use and no tactical advantage over C&D+ tactical strike if not in those situations when you want to rip off stability ( kinda funny with dagger storming thieves).

Again, the boon ripping is great. But since the rest of the move is unreliable ( evade+ damage) it’s not a solid investment to use 4 ini for it.

In order to make it viable, S/D should

1) evade more reliably (full evade like DB)
2) be faster, in order to make the second hit to, well, actually HIT.

OR

1b) be completely rehauled into something else.

Otherwise the trade off is not fair, especially since you have C&D+ tactical strike for the same cost.

It’s actually rather easy, since Swork skills and Dagger skills melt perfectly, and they would redo only the dual.

Let’s try to stay in topic. I don’t care if people who spam Pistol Whip/Backstab/Heartseeker are noobs or not, the fact is that you can be more effective than you should when relying on only one skill.

FS has lots of advantages over CnD + Tactical strike when the target has at least one boon.
Do you know what stripping one boon means? Depending on the boon stripped:
- Aegis: the attack is unblockable
- Fury: your target has -20% critical chance
- Might: your target has -35 power per stack.
- Protection: you deal 50% more damage
- Regeneration: you deal ~150 damage per second
- Retaliation: you don’t take >267 damage per hit
- Stability: you can CC your enemy which is otherwise uncontrolled.
- Swiftness: your enemy moves 25% slower
- Vigor: your enemy’s endurange regenerates 50% slower.

Now you’ll see that only one of those effects makes FS worth using over CnD + Tactical Strike at the cost of 4 initiative, also considering that is the only easy to access way for thieves to strip boons.
You shouldn’t care about the evade, which is a nice plus, or the 2nd sword attack, which is also a well accepted extra.

The evade is also a great thing. Just imagine you are in a fight against more people focusing on you and, to survive, you finished your endurance. Now imagine that a burst is coming to you, like Dragon’s Tooth or BC+HB combo. If you have 4 initiative with S/D left you can survive and manage to leave the battle. CnD won’t save your kitten in this situation, FS can.

Who cares if the second hit doesn’t land? If you are good (because it is about being good) and succed to land it, fine, if not, you invested your initiative well anyway IF you used it on a target with a boon.

CnD doesn’t cost 4 initiative. It still cost 6 initiative, but if you trait, when you stealth you gain 2 initiative. This means that if you have 4 or 5 initiative left, you can’t use CnD while you can use FS. Also, to make CnD “costs 4 initiative”, you have to invest precious trait points on Shadow Arts while FS doesn’t need it.

They are two different skills useful in different situations. There are some situations where CnD + TS is better than FS and some other when FS is better than CnD + TS.
It is absolutely untrue that CnD + TS is always better.

I would argue that Bountiful Theft makes the boon stripping not that important any more. It’s nice to be able to do consistently, but how many boons is a person going to have at the start of a fight? Taking 2 off the top and giving it to yourself and all allies is all I’ve felt like I needed. The fights are usually short enough that I kill them and get out, or I decide it’s not worth it and slip away before they manage to start applying a bunch more.

SFtheWolf.5179:

I would argue that Bountiful Theft makes the boon stripping not that important any more. It’s nice to be able to do consistently, but how many boons is a person going to have at the start of a fight? Taking 2 off the top and giving it to yourself and all allies is all I’ve felt like I needed. The fights are usually short enough that I kill them and get out, or I decide it’s not worth it and slip away before they manage to start applying a bunch more.

I think you know that S/D isn’t a hit-n-run set, you are not going to kill someone in seconds like you do with backstab, so yes, consistent boon stripping makes a bunker (like Guardian or Elementalist with consistent boon application) much much easier to kill and, most important, it doesn’t force you to put 20 trait points in a traitline you won’t use if you aren’t specced for conditions.

Flanking strke is not justifiable to use for its cost in both initiative and in risk in the immense majority of cases. It’s kinda ironic that it’s most reliable when you can’t use it to flank.