Guild Wars 2

Pyriall.5027:

Saying that S/D is about timing and postitioning when your choices are between skills that dodge, an evade (that is a heat seeking missile), and a teleport/cc break/immobilize is just plain laughable.

I could tell you that you can spam Shadow Shot on D/P and have a shadowstep (unblockable) to target that blinds and deals more damage per second and comepletely invalidate your statement. And that’s not even the best skill on D/P.

Do you play thief?

Med.6150:

Pyriall.5027:

Saying that S/D is about timing and postitioning when your choices are between skills that dodge, an evade (that is a heat seeking missile), and a teleport/cc break/immobilize is just plain laughable.

I could tell you that you can spam Shadow Shot on D/P and have a shadowstep (unblockable) to target that blinds and deals more damage per second and comepletely invalidate your statement. And that’s not even the best skill on D/P.

Do you play thief?

What you said, does not invalidate my statement…Do you read?

Pyriall.5027:

What? You don’t find it a bit absurd that the limiting factor in being able to run other GC builds are two profession’s gc builds?

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

stof.9341:

Pyriall.5027:

What? You don’t find it a bit absurd that the limiting factor in being able to run other GC builds are two profession’s gc builds?

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

…..No

A GC engineer, or necro, or ranger, or guardian, are all on even footing.

Thief and mesmer GC are all cannon and hardly glass because of all the teleports/offensive shutdowns they have. They can deliver their burst while invulnerable or untargetable, and they can reset a fight at will whereas the other GC’s do not get that luxury.

Zenith.7301:

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

…..No

A GC engineer, or necro, or ranger, or guardian, are all on even footing.

Thief and mesmer GC are all cannon and hardly glass because of all the teleports/offensive shutdowns they have. They can deliver their burst while invulnerable or untargetable, and they can reset a fight at will whereas the other GC’s do not get that luxury.
[/quote]

AMEN to that.

Zenith.7301:

stof.9341:

Pyriall.5027:

What? You don’t find it a bit absurd that the limiting factor in being able to run other GC builds are two profession’s gc builds?

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

…..No

A GC engineer, or necro, or ranger, or guardian, are all on even footing.

Thief and mesmer GC are all cannon and hardly glass because of all the teleports/offensive shutdowns they have. They can deliver their burst while invulnerable or untargetable, and they can reset a fight at will whereas the other GC’s do not get that luxury.

Sounds like a problem with those classes more than thieves and mesmers, why punish the haves instead of improving the have nots.

This thread is getting off-topic. If you’re going to discuss this, please continue the conversation in an alternate thread.

BobbyT.7192:

Zenith.7301:

stof.9341:

Pyriall.5027:

What? You don’t find it a bit absurd that the limiting factor in being able to run other GC builds are two profession’s gc builds?

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

…..No

A GC engineer, or necro, or ranger, or guardian, are all on even footing.

Thief and mesmer GC are all cannon and hardly glass because of all the teleports/offensive shutdowns they have. They can deliver their burst while invulnerable or untargetable, and they can reset a fight at will whereas the other GC’s do not get that luxury.

Sounds like a problem with those classes more than thieves and mesmers, why punish the haves instead of improving the have nots.

You think that adding targeted teleports, weapon based stun breaking teleports, weapon based evade skills and stealth to 6 professions is better than toning down the amount of evade, teleports, stealth and invulnerability that 2 professions have?

I think it would be easier to:
- Phase Retreat no longer breaks stuns
- Blurred Frenzy now applies 2s of Protection instead of 2s of Invulnerability
- Blink cool down increased to forty five seconds

- Flanking Strike no longer evades
- Larcenous Strike now costs 3 Initiative stealing 2 boons with an unblockable skill should be costly, it’s fracking awesome Players should choose when to use it, not just spam it several times to strip a player of all their boons in 3s, while evading attacks, gap-closing and doing significant damage.
- Shadowstep cool down increased to 60s
- Shadow Return no longer breaks stuns

The Risk vs Reward is currently skewed for Mesmers and Thieves allowing them either too many escapes (which massively benefits total glass cannons)
Or too much survivability
Blurred Frenzy allowing a Mesmer to jump into the middle of a fight and cleave everything while immune to damage once every 8-10s is crazy.
Choosing to do something like that should carry with it the risks the rest of us face when going into the thick of a fight, Mesmers should be susceptible to cleave / AoE damage and Retaliation when using Blurred Frenzy.

wanna stop an s/d thief? bring a d/p thief. that is all.

Arganthium.5638:

Now, people often maintain that the sword thief has “perma-evade”. However, given that FS had a half second cast, alongside LS, this clearly isn’t true. As a matter of fact, assuming an infinite amount of #3 spam, consecutively, a player will only be evading 50% of the time.

“Only?”

They take more then 1/2 second each, the full combo seems to take about 2 seconds. so there’s a 25% evade, at best.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

I like this idea. Consecutive usage of a certain skill increases initiative cost by 1.

And you think Pistol/Pistol is bad now? My guildmates wouldn’t even let me buy a 2nd pistol if this change went through.

S/D is broken right now and yes, spamming 3 is optimal because you get great, unblockable damage, crazy evasion and boon stealing.

fishergrip.4082:

S/D is broken right now and yes, spamming 3 is optimal because you get great, unblockable damage, crazy evasion and boon stealing.

Please read OP before replying. Repeating a point over and over does not make it true.

Arganthium.5638:

fishergrip.4082:

S/D is broken right now and yes, spamming 3 is optimal because you get great, unblockable damage, crazy evasion and boon stealing.

Please read OP before replying. Repeating a point over and over does not make it true.

Show us some tournament videos…EVERYTIME someone comes up with a “it’s not as easy as you think thread” they try to make it seem so much more complex; however when you watch them play guess what? It’s even easier. All you have to do is watch Jumper, I watch him stream very often and for the sake of comparison paid attention to his ability use. Guess what it was? A metric ton of 3 spam with dodge rolling and the shadow return to reset…

Ezrael.6859:

BobbyT.7192:

Zenith.7301:

stof.9341:

Pyriall.5027:

What? You don’t find it a bit absurd that the limiting factor in being able to run other GC builds are two profession’s gc builds?

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

…..No

A GC engineer, or necro, or ranger, or guardian, are all on even footing.

Thief and mesmer GC are all cannon and hardly glass because of all the teleports/offensive shutdowns they have. They can deliver their burst while invulnerable or untargetable, and they can reset a fight at will whereas the other GC’s do not get that luxury.

Sounds like a problem with those classes more than thieves and mesmers, why punish the haves instead of improving the have nots.

You think that adding targeted teleports, weapon based stun breaking teleports, weapon based evade skills and stealth to 6 professions is better than toning down the amount of evade, teleports, stealth and invulnerability that 2 professions have?

I think it would be easier to:
- Phase Retreat no longer breaks stuns
- Blurred Frenzy now applies 2s of Protection instead of 2s of Invulnerability
- Blink cool down increased to forty five seconds

- Flanking Strike no longer evades
- Larcenous Strike now costs 3 Initiative stealing 2 boons with an unblockable skill should be costly, it’s fracking awesome Players should choose when to use it, not just spam it several times to strip a player of all their boons in 3s, while evading attacks, gap-closing and doing significant damage.
- Shadowstep cool down increased to 60s
- Shadow Return no longer breaks stuns

The Risk vs Reward is currently skewed for Mesmers and Thieves allowing them either too many escapes (which massively benefits total glass cannons)
Or too much survivability
Blurred Frenzy allowing a Mesmer to jump into the middle of a fight and cleave everything while immune to damage once every 8-10s is crazy.
Choosing to do something like that should carry with it the risks the rest of us face when going into the thick of a fight, Mesmers should be susceptible to cleave / AoE damage and Retaliation when using Blurred Frenzy.

Rookie spotted. Phase retreat does not break CC. Also, Blurred Frenzy is really not as special skill as it may appear to rookies. There are many similiar skills, such as:
Warrior whirlwind attack: shorter 3/4s invulnerability, but deals more damage to greater arc and is a movement boost. Whirl Finisher. Same cool down.
Pistol Whip: Evasion comes after a stunning attack during which the thief can move but is vulnerable. Deals more damage than BR.
Quickshot: shoter 3/4s invulnerability and trash damage, but is ranged, grants a small movement boost and gives swiftness if it hits. In addition it has slightly better recharge of 9 seconds. Projectile Finisher.

I think I would rather take the warrior’s whirlwind attack on my shatter mesmer’s bar… Not sure if it would be better in all ocassions, but I just love the sheer offence of that skill. xD

Master of Timespace.2548:

Ezrael.6859:

BobbyT.7192:

Zenith.7301:

stof.9341:

Pyriall.5027:

What? You don’t find it a bit absurd that the limiting factor in being able to run other GC builds are two profession’s gc builds?

Not as such. The very nature of GC builds in GW2 is something that kills very fast and dies very fast (when you don’t avoid the damage). So two glass canons that fight each other are bound to be something very brutal.

If thief and mesmer didn’t have any effective GC build, you’d get 1-2 other classes to be declared “the kings of GC” and preventing all the other GC builds to be effective.

…..No

A GC engineer, or necro, or ranger, or guardian, are all on even footing.

Thief and mesmer GC are all cannon and hardly glass because of all the teleports/offensive shutdowns they have. They can deliver their burst while invulnerable or untargetable, and they can reset a fight at will whereas the other GC’s do not get that luxury.

Sounds like a problem with those classes more than thieves and mesmers, why punish the haves instead of improving the have nots.

You think that adding targeted teleports, weapon based stun breaking teleports, weapon based evade skills and stealth to 6 professions is better than toning down the amount of evade, teleports, stealth and invulnerability that 2 professions have?

I think it would be easier to:
- Phase Retreat no longer breaks stuns
- Blurred Frenzy now applies 2s of Protection instead of 2s of Invulnerability
- Blink cool down increased to forty five seconds

- Flanking Strike no longer evades
- Larcenous Strike now costs 3 Initiative stealing 2 boons with an unblockable skill should be costly, it’s fracking awesome Players should choose when to use it, not just spam it several times to strip a player of all their boons in 3s, while evading attacks, gap-closing and doing significant damage.
- Shadowstep cool down increased to 60s
- Shadow Return no longer breaks stuns

The Risk vs Reward is currently skewed for Mesmers and Thieves allowing them either too many escapes (which massively benefits total glass cannons)
Or too much survivability
Blurred Frenzy allowing a Mesmer to jump into the middle of a fight and cleave everything while immune to damage once every 8-10s is crazy.
Choosing to do something like that should carry with it the risks the rest of us face when going into the thick of a fight, Mesmers should be susceptible to cleave / AoE damage and Retaliation when using Blurred Frenzy.

Rookie spotted. Phase retreat does not break CC. Also, Blurred Frenzy is really not as special skill as it may appear to rookies. There are many similiar skills, such as:
Warrior whirlwind attack: shorter 3/4s invulnerability, but deals more damage to greater arc and is a movement boost. Whirl Finisher. Same cool down.
Pistol Whip: Evasion comes after a stunning attack during which the thief can move but is vulnerable. Deals more damage than BR.
Quickshot: shoter 3/4s invulnerability and trash damage, but is ranged, grants a small movement boost and gives swiftness if it hits. In addition it has slightly better recharge of 9 seconds. Projectile Finisher.

I think I would rather take the warrior’s whirlwind attack on my shatter mesmer’s bar… Not sure if it would be better in all ocassions, but I just love the sheer offence of that skill. xD

Phase retreat, although not a cc “breaker”, effectively acts as one.

All this posting isn’t going to stop the nerf that is coming to the S/D weapon set.

Brace yourselves for it.

http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/c/2452257
What you see: mindless 3 “spam” (?)
What I see: Counterplaying another good player’s counterplays(his trying to dodge my Larc Strike). Effective use of condi cleanse, well timed dodge-canceling of aftercast animation frames, combined with good dodge prediction (landed every hit but one slice I believe).

But by all means, Arganthium, if you want to show me how to “properly” play S/D, go ahead. I’m waiting.

Ridiculous. S/D isn’t even overpowered. Buff our other weapons sets so thief isn’t so useless.

Only thing I have to add, is that I don’t get why boon steal was buffed (1 to 2) AND change the unblockable part from the weak attack (FS) to the strong attack (LS).
If they kept the unblockable on the first hit, but changed boonsteal to the second, you’d have something you actually have to wait for at lacerous strike (using it at more tactical time) than just spamming it and hoping it’ll steal.

That being said, I’m not professing for a nerf, i’m just stating what my thoughts were when this buff came through.

Excalibur.9748:

Ridiculous. S/D isn’t even overpowered. Buff our other weapons sets so thief isn’t so useless.

I’m not the one complaining about this. This thread was originally posted in the sPvP forum, where people actually believe that it’s OP.

Arganthium.5638:

Excalibur.9748:

Ridiculous. S/D isn’t even overpowered. Buff our other weapons sets so thief isn’t so useless.

I’m not the one complaining about this. This thread was originally posted in the sPvP forum, where people actually believe that it’s OP.

People believe:
1. Extremely easy to play
2. Abilities are over budget (too much built into a single ability for its resource cost)
3. Overly rewarding
4. Extremely frustrating and unfun to play against

Jumper.9482:

http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/c/2452257
What you see: mindless 3 “spam” (?)
What I see: Counterplaying another good player’s counterplays(his trying to dodge my Larc Strike). Effective use of condi cleanse, well timed dodge-canceling of aftercast animation frames, combined with good dodge prediction (landed every hit but one slice I believe).

But by all means, Arganthium, if you want to show me how to “properly” play S/D, go ahead. I’m waiting.

Oh please.

As I’m currently using my phone (well, I do have extremely limited computer access), it is true that I cannot view your video (because a certain company decided that it would be a good idea not to have Adobe Flash Player…). So, instead, I’ll have to simply criticize you from my past experiences seeing your play style.

First of all, I’d like to start off by saying that the mathematics of your build are flawed; that I’ve shown this to you and that you have chosen to ignore my advice, likely without having considered thy I may have had a point. I’m saying this because I’m convinced that your fame has gone way over your head, to the point that you will not take build advice from someone as “lowly” as me. I’ve contributed a great deal to this community, and I’m disappointed that their newest idol has gone way over his head in that he chooses to follow some kind of overly aggressive dogma that greatly limits his options. Thus, the rest of my reply is a contribution to the welfare of the community, not (just) for you.

Now onto the real deal:
If a player really can’t avoid your LS, then that’s not a pro for you, it’s a con for them. Honestly, do you know the range of that thing? It’s not exactly better than CnD, that’s for sure. And it requires good timing if you’re planning on landing it. How can you afford good timing if evades are your only defense? Weapon swapping to save LS? What’s that going to do for you? It’ll just decrease your damage stream, inconvenience your initiative regeneration, inconvenience your endurance regeneration, and, again, causes you to lack any decent sort of range.

Your lack of utility of IS/SRet is frustrating. It basically gives off the impression that you’re good enough that you don’t need to worry about conditions all too often (even though I’ve seen them melt you). If anything, you lack utility of condi cleanse, in my experience watching you.

So you know how to dodge? Cool! But did I not put tips to countering dodges in the OP? And where’s your territory control? Why won’t you just melt when somebody drops a Chaos Storm on you, or a mark while you’re in your FS animation? Can you avoid either of those, or even afford to get hit by those? Not really, and I’ve seen them hurt you before as well.

So, in other words, your build causes you to focus on a huge number of things all at once, as opposed to focusing on the most important ones, lacks any good deal of defense (somebody looks at you funny and you’re dead), has to sacrifice range in order to work, doesn’t even utilize your weapon skills well, and causes you to die to territory control.

And that is why your build is flawed.

You do realize the entire point of the 30 Acro and Energy sigils, right?
Its for utilizing the first sword auto (Slice).
Since the cast is instant, and the aftercast is huge, by dodge rolling it you’re filling in time that you would normally just be standing there kitten.

Combat in GW2 is far more dynamic than you make it out to be.
The fact the last auto in the Sword auto chain has 877 base dmg is meaningless when it means you have to land two 540 strikes with terrible aftercast and casts.
I can probably count the number of Crippling Strikes I’ve landed on one hand.

Let’s go into detail the main combos I use to maximize damage and evasion shall we?
FS>LS>Dodge:
Very simple. If the enemy is trying to hit you after LS you cancel the 1/10th second of aftercast with a dodge and evade their hit. This is especially useful for slow-casters like Necros and HGH Engies if you get the rhythm placed well enough timing it to each of his casts.
FS>LS>Slice>Dodge:
500,1000,540 dmg. This is the S/D’s set quickest form of burst damage but also very predictable and prone to dodges, dealing damage in a mere ~.75sec disregarding the evade time from FS. Far more dmg than the full Sword Auto-chain. And much easier to land.
FS>Slice>Dodge>LS>Slice>Dodge:
An evade, 500 dmg, a near instant 540 from Slice followed up due to FS’s lack of aftercast. This is effective because not only are you not risking your LS being evaded, but Slice has an EXTREMELY faster cast time than LS and allows you to dodge much earlier. This, unless the enemy times it extremely well (in which case just forget the Slice), gives your opponent a false sense of “ok, I have 1/2sec to hit him”. Either he tries to hit you, and likely fails, or he dodges expecting you to LS, in which case you followup after your and his dodge with a LS+Slice for 1000+540 dmg.

You have to constantly switch up your playstyle to remain unpredictable, predict your opponent’s dodges, and break your rhythm to dodge or Shadow Return when necessary to avoid big-hitters such as Mindwrack, Eviscerate, Pheonix/Grab.
This is what seperates 3-spam with proper S/D play.

And your preferred playstyle is what, exactly? Spam 1 with 25-30-0-0-15 because its “more dps”?

Good thread, 3 spam is almost as bad as heartseeker spam, but at least you get an evade or something.

So let me get this straight- you spent 30 trait points and two sigils just so that you can utilize the after cast on Slice? The heck? I can tell you from my S/D experience that that’s easily achievable without that degree of overkill. And it’s not like you’re going to just stand there clueless after you hit the auto, anyhow. There’s this thing called “positioning”, too, ya know, that you could be spending time in getting rather than rolling in, practically speaking, some arbitrary direction.

And your combos:

Your first one is an elaborate scheme designed to save you a tenth of a second in exchange for the two tenths of a second it takes you to remember it.

Your second one… If you’re bragging about it doing significantly more damage than the auto, you should check the coefficients out on the skills. And taking out the evade time on FS, here, lacks any justification, and the same goes for evasion time on the dodge, assuming that we’re calculating DPS (which we suddenly seem to be doing). And, again, the positioning on this is somewhat suspect, although I’m getting the feeling that you don’t care about player-opponent positioning anyways. Your videos show it, too.

Your third combo is likely to only end up dealing the FS coefficient of .75 (as a good enemy will start attacking while you’re using FS), and you’ll probably end up missing LS anyways due to bad positioning from dodges. Unless, of course, you want to eat tons of damage while dealing your own.

And what happened to team fights? What happened to people using AoE and range to blast you to pieces? What happened to targeting and focus firing? You seem not to have considered these.

Not that it matters; none of this says anything in reply to previous points I’ve made. Seems just to be more of an advertisement for your alleged “skill”. You have no territory control, no solid defense, no good positioning, an inefficient method of dealing damage, no good utility of IS/SR, and no range, among a variety of other problems that plague you. Your build is both theoretically and practically inefficient, and your play style is suffering for it.

So what do I run? 10/0/0/30/30 with Mug, III, IX, and X in Acro, and traits V, VII, and XII in Trix. I run soldier’s amulet with zerker jewel, Lyssa runes, Withdraw, RfInit, InfSignet, SStep, and Basi venom. I also run two sigils of force (sword, SB) and a sigil of bloodlust on my dagger. I regenerate enough initiative to maintain a constant stream of damage output, amplified by the third minor in Trix. I can swap between melee and range, and sustain myself long enough to participate in team fights or 1v2 for long periods of time. I can manipulate Steal easily, position myself quickly, and have enough passive (or what I classify as type I active, essentially the “less dangerous” type) regeneration to focus on the details in a battle.

And you? Do you even understand the theory behind the game? It doesn’t seem like it; you were, after all, using base damage amounts as opposed to coefficients earlier. And your zerker amulet is mathematically inferior. Your calculations are extremely sketchy, and none of them take into account practical issues in battle. To me, this seems more like a build that went through tons of trial-and-error to its ultimately flawed state not based on facts, but biases on your behalf.

Do you even use damage amplifiers and dampeners in making your builds?

Arganthium.5638:

So let me get this straight- you spent 30 trait points and two sigils just so that you can utilize the after cast on Slice? The heck? I can tell you from my S/D experience that that’s easily achievable without that degree of overkill. And it’s not like you’re going to just stand there clueless after you hit the auto, anyhow. There’s this thing called “positioning”, too, ya know, that you could be spending time in getting rather than rolling in, practically speaking, some arbitrary direction.

And your combos:

Your first one is an elaborate scheme designed to save you a tenth of a second in exchange for the two tenths of a second it takes you to remember it.

Your second one… If you’re bragging about it doing significantly more damage than the auto, you should check the coefficients out on the skills. And taking out the evade time on FS, here, lacks any justification, and the same goes for evasion time on the dodge, assuming that we’re calculating DPS (which we suddenly seem to be doing). And, again, the positioning on this is somewhat suspect, although I’m getting the feeling that you don’t care about player-opponent positioning anyways. Your videos show it, too.

Your third combo is likely to only end up dealing the FS coefficient of .75 (as a good enemy will start attacking while you’re using FS), and you’ll probably end up missing LS anyways due to bad positioning from dodges. Unless, of course, you want to eat tons of damage while dealing your own.

And what happened to team fights? What happened to people using AoE and range to blast you to pieces? What happened to targeting and focus firing? You seem not to have considered these.

Not that it matters; none of this says anything in reply to previous points I’ve made. Seems just to be more of an advertisement for your alleged “skill”. You have no territory control, no solid defense, no good positioning, an inefficient method of dealing damage, no good utility of IS/SR, and no range, among a variety of other problems that plague you. Your build is both theoretically and practically inefficient, and your play style is suffering for it.

So what do I run? 10/0/0/30/30 with Mug, III, IX, and X in Acro, and traits V, VII, and XII in Trix. I run soldier’s amulet with zerker jewel, Lyssa runes, Withdraw, RfInit, InfSignet, SStep, and Basi venom. I also run two sigils of force (sword, SB) and a sigil of bloodlust on my dagger. I regenerate enough initiative to maintain a constant stream of damage output, amplified by the third minor in Trix. I can swap between melee and range, and sustain myself long enough to participate in team fights or 1v2 for long periods of time. I can manipulate Steal easily, position myself quickly, and have enough passive (or what I classify as type I active, essentially the “less dangerous” type) regeneration to focus on the details in a battle.

And you? Do you even understand the theory behind the game? It doesn’t seem like it; you were, after all, using base damage amounts as opposed to coefficients earlier. And your zerker amulet is mathematically inferior. Your calculations are extremely sketchy, and none of them take into account practical issues in battle. To me, this seems more like a build that went through tons of trial-and-error to its ultimately flawed state not based on facts, but biases on your behalf.

Do you even use damage amplifiers and dampeners in making your builds?

Jumper plays a good Thief. He knows what he’s doing. As good as you are, the fact remains that he also plays for one of the top 5 teams in the WORLD and consistently supports his team more than almost any Thief in the current meta.

I do agree with the “spam is bad” bit, but starting a thread to rail on his inadequacies when he’s clearly not inadequate is kind of an exercise in futility.

I should explain.

“Bad” is a relative term. He’s great compared to the majority of the community right now. He’s bad relative to what players can and should strive to be, and can achieve. I’m not a particularly good player, but I can theorycraft, and I can affirm that Jumper is making some fairly odd choices.

Relative to the meta, he’s great. Relative to what players will be like as he disappears from the scene and is replaced by more flexible players as the theory and competition within this game increases… If he wants to stick around, he’d better learn to adapt.

Arganthium.5638:

I should explain.

“Bad” is a relative term. He’s great compared to the majority of the community right now. He’s bad relative to what players can and should strive to be, and can achieve. I’m not a particularly good player, but I can theorycraft, and I can affirm that Jumper is making some fairly odd choices.

Relative to the meta, he’s great. Relative to what players will be like as he disappears from the scene and is replaced by more flexible players as the theory and competition within this game increases… If he wants to stick around, he’d better learn to adapt.

Doesn’t that hold true for everyone? =)

We learn and evolve with the meta. The D/D Burst Thief is totally obsolete right now. The S/P Hastewhip is ABYSMALLY obsolete. But months ago, they were meta.

Soon, S/D will join the ranks of D/P as viable-but-not-mandatory. And that’s a good trend to have.

Jumper hijacked the Unicorn build and made it dangerous, then jumped on D/P and made its relative brokenness public. Now he’s done the same with S/D.

I’m not singing his praises at all xD I know far better thieves. But you can’t say that he’s not using the build to its full potential, because that burst with the timing he’s introduced have won Team DM too many matches to ignore.

This is amusing me.

-Caed.

SharadSun.3089:

Arganthium.5638:

I should explain.

“Bad” is a relative term. He’s great compared to the majority of the community right now. He’s bad relative to what players can and should strive to be, and can achieve. I’m not a particularly good player, but I can theorycraft, and I can affirm that Jumper is making some fairly odd choices.

Relative to the meta, he’s great. Relative to what players will be like as he disappears from the scene and is replaced by more flexible players as the theory and competition within this game increases… If he wants to stick around, he’d better learn to adapt.

Doesn’t that hold true for everyone? =)

We learn and evolve with the meta. The D/D Burst Thief is totally obsolete right now. The S/P Hastewhip is ABYSMALLY obsolete. But months ago, they were meta.

Soon, S/D will join the ranks of D/P as viable-but-not-mandatory. And that’s a good trend to have.

Jumper hijacked the Unicorn build and made it dangerous, then jumped on D/P and made its relative brokenness public. Now he’s done the same with S/D.

I’m not singing his praises at all xD I know far better thieves. But you can’t say that he’s not using the build to its full potential, because that burst with the timing he’s introduced have won Team DM too many matches to ignore.

Perhaps.

Anyways, I’d argue that he’s using the build to its maximum efficiency, but he’s not using S/D to its maximum efficiency.

Narcarsis.5739:

This is amusing me.

-Caed.

Wot.

-Arctu

SharadSun.3089:

Arganthium.5638:

I should explain.

“Bad” is a relative term. He’s great compared to the majority of the community right now. He’s bad relative to what players can and should strive to be, and can achieve. I’m not a particularly good player, but I can theorycraft, and I can affirm that Jumper is making some fairly odd choices.

Relative to the meta, he’s great. Relative to what players will be like as he disappears from the scene and is replaced by more flexible players as the theory and competition within this game increases… If he wants to stick around, he’d better learn to adapt.

Doesn’t that hold true for everyone? =)

We learn and evolve with the meta. The D/D Burst Thief is totally obsolete right now. The S/P Hastewhip is ABYSMALLY obsolete. But months ago, they were meta.

Soon, S/D will join the ranks of D/P as viable-but-not-mandatory. And that’s a good trend to have.

Jumper hijacked the Unicorn build and made it dangerous, then jumped on D/P and made its relative brokenness public. Now he’s done the same with S/D.

I’m not singing his praises at all xD I know far better thieves. But you can’t say that he’s not using the build to its full potential, because that burst with the timing he’s introduced have won Team DM too many matches to ignore.

S/D has a burst?