Why is P/P viewed so poorly?

Why is P/P viewed so poorly?

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Posted by: Valvador.4291

Valvador.4291

If anything, P/P is a good burst option for Stealth-minimal builds as the range factor allows you to dodge and work in unloads.

With the right build you can pick up +30% damage to pistols when you’re above 6 initiative (easy when you have 15 max) and less than on full endurance. With the right gear, you’re pretty much sitting on 75% critical chance with fury active. You can do 3 unloads in a row and whenever they crit they hit between 4000 and 6000 damage (depending on armor).

So what exactly about P/P makes it so much worse than S/D or even D/P? S/D has sustained damage, but not much. Has the mobility and now lowered Boon Striping.

Thief – [BanD]Valnilus
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

You answered your own question pretty much. Unless you use that thiefsmer build, you’re going to be spamming unload, which isn’t that powerful. Now then, let’s assume you aren’t condi specced, the auto attack is rather laughable, so this means your main source of damage is coming from Unload. Nothing wrong with that…or is there? See Unload essentially becomes your bread and butter attack for P/P, not the auto attack, unless you use condi specs, but you normally wouldnt be doing P/P anyway. Back to the point, your bread and butter attack isn’t your auto attack, which means it uses initiative, which means that if you want to use any of the other moves that quite frankly have no synergy with your bread and butter attack (Unload in case we forgot), you have to sacrifice some initiative, which means less unloading and more lolpewing. That’s the problem, no synergy, little damage, and too slow it seems: no built in evade or stealth like literally every other weapon set the thief has.

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: Valvador.4291

Valvador.4291

You answered your own question pretty much. Unless you use that thiefsmer build, you’re going to be spamming unload, which isn’t that powerful. Now then, let’s assume you aren’t condi specced, the auto attack is rather laughable, so this means your main source of damage is coming from Unload. Nothing wrong with that…or is there? See Unload essentially becomes your bread and butter attack for P/P, not the auto attack, unless you use condi specs, but you normally wouldnt be doing P/P anyway. Back to the point, your bread and butter attack isn’t your auto attack, which means it uses initiative, which means that if you want to use any of the other moves that quite frankly have no synergy with your bread and butter attack (Unload in case we forgot), you have to sacrifice some initiative, which means less unloading and more lolpewing. That’s the problem, no synergy, little damage, and too slow it seems: no built in evade or stealth like literally every other weapon set the thief has.

I appreciate the explanation. I haven’t had much one on one time with this build in one on one operations. I am usually in combat and am relying on my utilities and dodges to get out of the way.

However with S/D I’m either using flanking string to string boons, or spamming 2 to teleport, or 5 to attempt to daze or heal.

With Dagger Pistol I am only really using Blinding Powder to stealth and then backstab.

I don’t know if saying that “relying on Unload” is really that bad of a thing especially if it’s your primary way of doing damage. And what makes you say that it’s not that great of a burst utility? Because it’s easy to read and dodge?

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Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: ensoriki.5789

ensoriki.5789

I could take a Pistol/Pistol for Unload.
Or I could roll Mesmer take /P and have it use Illusionary Unload which is only 5% weaker but has the same amount of hits. Meanwhile I’ll have greater in-combat mobility as a Mesmer due to Illusionary leap and because Mesmer uses Cooldowns instead of initiative, using that Illusionary Unload won’t take anything away from my ability to defend myself.

P/P recently got a buff so it’s not right of me to be super critical this early on, but that’s part of my qualm from it before patch. I could take a Mesmer to accomplish the same attack without trading defense.

The great forum duppy.

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Posted by: Valvador.4291

Valvador.4291

What do you mean as far as buff besides buffing the utility of #2 in groups?

Thief – [BanD]Valnilus
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

You answered your own question pretty much. Unless you use that thiefsmer build, you’re going to be spamming unload, which isn’t that powerful. Now then, let’s assume you aren’t condi specced, the auto attack is rather laughable, so this means your main source of damage is coming from Unload. Nothing wrong with that…or is there? See Unload essentially becomes your bread and butter attack for P/P, not the auto attack, unless you use condi specs, but you normally wouldnt be doing P/P anyway. Back to the point, your bread and butter attack isn’t your auto attack, which means it uses initiative, which means that if you want to use any of the other moves that quite frankly have no synergy with your bread and butter attack (Unload in case we forgot), you have to sacrifice some initiative, which means less unloading and more lolpewing. That’s the problem, no synergy, little damage, and too slow it seems: no built in evade or stealth like literally every other weapon set the thief has.

I appreciate the explanation. I haven’t had much one on one time with this build in one on one operations. I am usually in combat and am relying on my utilities and dodges to get out of the way.

However with S/D I’m either using flanking string to string boons, or spamming 2 to teleport, or 5 to attempt to daze or heal.

With Dagger Pistol I am only really using Blinding Powder to stealth and then backstab.

I don’t know if saying that “relying on Unload” is really that bad of a thing especially if it’s your primary way of doing damage. And what makes you say that it’s not that great of a burst utility? Because it’s easy to read and dodge?

It’s not that great at bursting because for one its power is a ways from being on par with backstab in the least, and also because a lot of the damage can be mitigated by sheer means of evasion.

Comparing D/P with P/P is a flase comparison because D/P moves have synergy. You have a blinding smoke field which can cast stealth if you use a leap finisher, which D/P just happened to have: heatseeker

You have an on demand interrupt: headshot, heartseeker for finalizing kills, shadow shot for gap closing and backstab for massive damage. And when you are in between attacks, you have your auto attack for bread and butter damage.

P/P, power wise, you kinda just have unload to deal damage. Yeah you can use your other attacks, but let’s not forget, initiative spending

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

It’s not a bad build if you play smartly.

OP’d thief, lol

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

It’s not a bad build if you play smartly.

Sanduskel, you’re pro any build that doesn’t use stealth -_-

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: infantrydiv.1620

infantrydiv.1620

If Body shot had any damage potential, we might be somewhere. Since it doesn’t P/P is simply Unload spamming with no mobility. It’s just terrible compared to any other set

Ranger//Necro

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Posted by: Valvador.4291

Valvador.4291

It works fairly well in WvW because unlike Melee it allows you to stay out of harms way most of the time. But I guess if I want to do more than that it’s a bit lackluster.

Thief – [BanD]Valnilus
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Doomdesire.9365

Doomdesire.9365

Because the only way you can make it work is to be relatively glassy, in which case, what is the point? It’s like running a zerker LB ranger with less HP. Not to mention unload is easily dodged. I’m sure there will always be players that get destroyed by someone using P/P, but the build is still trash.

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Posted by: Barfoi.9537

Barfoi.9537

Because the only way you can make it work is to be relatively glassy, in which case, what is the point?

If you’re not mostly “glassy” with P/P, or you can’t survive extreme encounters if you are, then you definitely will have problems. If not, however, then your P/P should ruin the lives of mostly every other profession and/or build in WvW. If anything, only certain Mesmer builds can mitigate the constant pressure to provide a long fight, or those troll-thieves that just keep running away and coming back for some reason.

It’s not that great at bursting because for one its power is a ways from being on par with backstab.

In small-to-large fights, how many back-stabs can you easily land in 10 seconds on multiple targets? More specifically, don’t confuse spike-damage with sustainable-damage.

You have a blinding smoke field which can cast stealth if you use a leap finisher

If someone shadow-steps into that field, you’ll get “revealed” and die 2-3 seconds later.

P/P, power wise, you kinda just have unload to deal damage. Yeah you can use your other attacks, but let’s not forget, initiative spending

… and don’t you kinda just have to Back-stab to deal damage? Against other thieves, Unload usually channels for 8-10k. I can probably spam Unload 4-5x in a row before having 1 ini left, and then I can steal/roll and go back to Unloading. Initiative is not a problem for P/P when it channels for so much (ranged) damage.

So what exactly about P/P makes it so much worse than S/D or even D/P?

P/P probably performs less effectively in sPvP, but outside of solo-roaming (or trolling), S/D and D/P in WvW can be rather useless. To be fair, they can be very effective in organized (and competent) groups, but don’t confuse their performance when matched against unorganized groups.

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Posted by: Volrath.1473

Volrath.1473

retaliation…

Not to mention that if you wanna play competitively you need to be in the capture point circle to cap/uncap/avoid cap if you stay at a distance your are useless to your team.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

RedSpectrum hit the nail on the head

P/P isn’t more capable at DPS than any other set in the game, the only difference is that in order to even reach reasonable damage you have to dump literally all of your Initiative into spamming Unload, which means you get absolutely nothing in the way of mobility OR utility, and vice versa. No other set on any class in the game has this problem, because all other classes use cooldowns (no direct competition between the skills) and Thief’s other weapons use the autoattack as their primary source of sustained DPS (which is how it should be).

This is all due to how horrible Vital Shot is. If they would just buff Vital Shot’s damage or reduce its aftercast by about .2 seconds it would magically fix the whole set.

(edited by Einlanzer.1627)

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Posted by: Barfoi.9537

Barfoi.9537

(in reference to WvW)

in order to even reach reasonable damage you have to dump literally all of your Initiative into spamming Unload

If your Unload doesn’t channel for 5-10k+ per, then you’re probably better-off sitting in stealth trying to land a back-stab. Although even then, you’d probably just tickle most people.

which means you get absolutely nothing in the way of mobility OR utility

The weapon-skills may lack mobility and/or utility, but there are other sources.

No other set on any class in the game has this problem, because all other classes use cooldowns

Not having cool-downs in not a problem for me. If I want to spam a skill, I can, but it comes at its own price, which is an enjoyable limitation.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

(in reference to WvW)

in order to even reach reasonable damage you have to dump literally all of your Initiative into spamming Unload

If your Unload doesn’t channel for 5-10k+ per, then you’re probably better-off sitting in stealth trying to land a back-stab. Although even then, you’d probably just tickle most people.

which means you get absolutely nothing in the way of mobility OR utility

The weapon-skills may lack mobility and/or utility, but there are other sources.

No other set on any class in the game has this problem, because all other classes use cooldowns

Not having cool-downs in not a problem for me. If I want to spam a skill, I can, but it comes at its own price, which is an enjoyable limitation.

You don’t get what I’m saying. I like Initiative; I’m saying that P/P specifically is not designed well within the context of Initiative and is consequently crippled in a way that no other weapon on any other class in the game is. And no matter how much you may like it thematically, or how effective it might be in certain specific situations, that’s a problem.

Because the primary source of damage is the Initiative-hogging Unload, in order to make use of its utility you have to sacrifice huge amounts of damage. In order to get good damage, you have to sacrifice all of its utility AND severely limit your mobility. This means the set is not very functional or effective, and it’s entirely because Vital Shot can’t pull its own weight in providing decent sustained DPS.

Why they felt like ‘buffing’ Body Shot would fix this when the problem is clearly Vital Shot is totally beyond me.

(edited by Einlanzer.1627)

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Posted by: Buzzcrave.6197

Buzzcrave.6197

I find P/P to be perfect with perplex runes, however the 6th ability on the runes need to be nerfed, maybe 15 sec ICD or make it give 1 stack of confusion for each interrupt instead of 5. P/P on burst/zerker though, does not do well.

First, the auto attack is more effective towards conditions. Second, the main burst is Unload which need tons of initiative but deal low damage and easily dodged. Third, the only way to play burst P/P efficiently is to use full zerk, once your utility is burned out, you won’t have any other option to escape, while S/D and D/P does. Not to forget you will be glassy as hell and will die easily. Even worst than LB ranger.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

I find P/P to be perfect with perplex runes, however the 6th ability on the runes need to be nerfed, maybe 15 sec ICD or make it give 1 stack of confusion for each interrupt instead of 5. P/P on burst/zerker though, does not do well.

First, the auto attack is more effective towards conditions. Second, the main burst is Unload which need tons of initiative but deal low damage and easily dodged. Third, the only way to play burst P/P efficiently is to use full zerk, once your utility is burned out, you won’t have any other option to escape, while S/D and D/P does. Not to forget you will be glassy as hell and will die easily. Even worst than LB ranger.

I would definitely agree that some of the problem with P/P revolves around the way most players build for it. Most people use a zerker/glass build with it to maximize Unload which means it has decent burst damage but at the cost of relatively poor sustained damage, poor mobility, and little to no utility.

P/P seems to in fact work better with a more hybridized build that Vital Shot draws some benefit from, where you trade off some of the burst potential for more reliable sustained DPS and significantly better mobility and utility. In other words, a pure condition build should use P/D, a hybrid build should use P/P, and a full zerker build should really avoid Pistols altogether outside of certain situations where you stand to benefit from little other than ranged burst potential.

However, having said that, Vital Shot is still weaker than it should be and it leaves the set in a less than desirable state.

(edited by Einlanzer.1627)

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

I feel that Shortbow > pistol/pistol because of the Shortbow’s AoE capabilities. Have you ever stuck a Superior Sigil of Fire on one and then spammed Cluster Bomb?

Explosions EVERYWHERE!

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Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

It’s viewed poorly because it requires planning and thought to use. People like the button mashing ez mode specs.

OP’d thief, lol

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Posted by: Ink.9058

Ink.9058

I find P/P to be perfect with perplex runes, however the 6th ability on the runes need to be nerfed, maybe 15 sec ICD or make it give 1 stack of confusion for each interrupt instead of 5. P/P on burst/zerker though, does not do well.

First, the auto attack is more effective towards conditions. Second, the main burst is Unload which need tons of initiative but deal low damage and easily dodged. Third, the only way to play burst P/P efficiently is to use full zerk, once your utility is burned out, you won’t have any other option to escape, while S/D and D/P does. Not to forget you will be glassy as hell and will die easily. Even worst than LB ranger.

I would definitely agree that some of the problem with P/P revolves around the way most players build for it. Most people use a zerker/glass build with it to maximize Unload which means it has decent burst damage but at the cost of relatively poor sustained damage, poor mobility, and little to no utility.

P/P seems to in fact work better with a more hybridized build that Vital Shot draws some benefit from, where you trade off some of the burst potential for more reliable sustained DPS and significantly better mobility and utility. In other words, a pure condition build should use P/D, a hybrid build should use P/P, and a full zerker build should really avoid Pistols altogether outside of certain situations where you stand to benefit from little other than ranged burst potential.

However, having said that, Vital Shot is still weaker than it should be and it leaves the set in a less than desirable state.

Out of curiosity, what would be the optimal gear setup for P/P? 50/50 Carrion/Zerker? Dire/Zerker? Something else? Kinda seems like that kind of hybrid set would synergize with D/D too, in a P/P + D/D setup.

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Posted by: blackgoat.5172

blackgoat.5172

Out of curiosity, what would be the optimal gear setup for P/P? 50/50 Carrion/Zerker? Dire/Zerker? Something else? Kinda seems like that kind of hybrid set would synergize with D/D too, in a P/P + D/D setup.

This is what I’ve been running on my thief and I find it quite fun. The way I have it set up in that link is for PVE for WvW I change a few things. Change out the Signet of Malice for Hide in the Shadows, change the Purity sigil for Fire. In Trickery change “Uncatchable” for “Thrill of the Crime” and if you’re not running with the Zerg change “Ricochet” for “Bountiful Thief”. And I always use Bloodlust and food.

I’m sure plenty of people will disagree but I run it because its fun for me. With all the initiative regen I can Unload 4-6 times then if I need more, Steal, Roll for Initiative and I’m good to go. Like I said for me, this works great in PVE and WvW but in sPvP, P/P just sucks. With the way sPvP is “balanced” I haven’t been able to make it work.

Káge – 80 Thief / Asháman – 80 Elementalist
Project Mayhem A multigaming, PVx social guild on Dragonbrand
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Posted by: aaron.7850

aaron.7850

It’s viewed poorly because it requires planning and thought to use. People like the button mashing ez mode specs.

spamming unload requires planning and thought?

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Posted by: Dagins.5163

Dagins.5163

P/P in sPvP is all about positioning. You can take down soft targets instantly out of combat while being outside of AoE fest. Find a pillar, and you are also protected from ranged damage. With right environment, it is the best anti-glass set we have.

You will get hard countered by retailation and projectile block, but you will also proc many combo fields on your way (hopefully poison and smoke).

In general, this set is 100% team dependant, and being team dependant in solo que or hot-join might be very dangerous.

Signed, level 1 alt

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Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

PP can totally worked if played well but its harder to be succesful than on other thief build. Condition pp full carrion with perplex runes(getting nerfed soon) is very strong dueling spec. Crit dmg can also work check out my olds it may give you some ideas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZrsaTsXCU 3v1 duel pistol thief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQtkZ8hOtkw thief pistol/pistol wvw gameplay

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir

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Posted by: Barfoi.9537

Barfoi.9537

(in reference to WvW)

Condition pp full carrion with perplex runes

It’s an extremely effective (albeit irritating) setup, but also extremely limited in their scope of effectiveness. ;P

spamming unload requires planning and thought?

If you don’t think it does, then you’d be one more to complain about its poor performance. Personally, I find the damage to be extremely high and sustainable, and it’s very easy to down most professions and still have full health. I will once again give props to the only profession than can sustainable (without CDs) mitigate its damage — certain Mesmer builds. I will exclude, however, troll-thieves that flee 2000 units after a single Unload.

Out of curiosity, what would be the optimal gear setup for P/P? 50/50 Carrion/Zerker? Dire/Zerker? Something else?

You’d be mediocre in both condition-damage and crit-damage, and would have to make sacrifices everywhere (e.g., runes, sigils, foods, etc.). It can still “work”, but a naked up-level with no traits can as well, so that’s not saying much.

Most people use a zerker/glass build with it to maximize Unload which means it has decent burst damage but at the cost of relatively poor sustained damage, poor mobility, and little to no utility.

Do you know why maximizing damage is important? It ends fights quickly. When a target can’t survive the first 5 seconds of combat, mobility isn’t high in priority. Bunkers take longer, but when realize their health drops much faster than for what they tickle you for, they’ve already lost.

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Posted by: Raolin Soulherder.3195

Raolin Soulherder.3195

P/P can be decent in it’s own way (speaking from a wvw perspective). need to trait for initiative regen. with enough precision, you knock 1-2 initiative off the cost of unload. if you add roll for initiative, it helps with the regen plus mobility. packing the SB adds to the mobility esp when you have good initiative regen. Nice thing about unload is that it follows the target, even if they stealth mid-skill. it helps burst down opponents from a safe distance. I can see how other thief builds might be superior, but I am more comfortable w/ the playing style. get to stay out of the thick of things (aoe/cc maelstrom)) and don’t have to think too much if brain is tired at the end of the day. don’t have to land a c’n’d every few seconds so it’s less stressful