Title.
Why is it I’m seeing a ton of QQ posts about S/D all of a sudden? Did something change?
Mesmer and elementalist are kitten ed that S/D thief removed them from the metagame and are complaining like crazy.
Apparently it’s okay for warrior to hard counter spirit ranger and condi necro, but not okay for S/D thief to hard counter mesmer and elementalist.
I’ve always wondered why S/D thief was lumped in with Passive play body blocking Petting Zoo Spirit Rangers, AoE condi spam/burst necro’s, and perma regen warriors. All 3 have options to invest completely in toughness/condition damage, 2 of them have insane AoE options, and all 3 are very survivable.
Somehow, S/D thieves are always lumped in to the “Super broken” column with those 3 classes, despite being almost entirely single target, having weak sustain (especially when compared to those 3) and needing a Zerker’s jewel to deal what anyone would consider “high” sustained damage.
i main an ele, and literally hate thieves with a passion, but i dont find s/d thieves to be a problem. i agree with op on this one, surprisingly.
It’s because we swing the sword so fast and skill 3 and 4 are OP
It’s because we swing the sword so fast and skill 3 and 4 are OP
Lol since when is dancing dagger OP??
It’s because we swing the sword so fast and skill 3 and 4 are OP
Lol since when is dancing dagger OP??
I’m going to guess there’s a missing sarcasm tag there…
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.
It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
It’s because we swing the sword so fast and skill 3 and 4 are OP
Lol since when is dancing dagger OP??
2 and 5 are also OP because 2 is spammable and 5 grants stealth on command.
EDIT: Lets not forget 6-9. Those are OP too.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
If they have to, move some of the damage from LS to FS – reducing the overall damage of the 2 skills by just straight reducing LS is silly, they hit on par with Auto attack in the same timeframe – yes, they have stronger attached effects than AA, but they also cost init…so it seems fairly balanced to me.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
If they have to, move some of the damage from LS to FS – reducing the overall damage of the 2 skills by just straight reducing LS is silly, they hit on par with Auto attack in the same timeframe – yes, they have stronger attached effects than AA, but they also cost init…so it seems fairly balanced to me.
That is not true, AA chain takes over 2 seconds (you can easily check this by chainign 2 AA chains, the second CS will hit AFTER the 2 second Cripple / Weakness has run out -> over 2 seconds), i can nearly chain 2x FS / LS in that time frame, and that is definetly more damage than an AA chain, not to mention the utility is a lot better + it doesnt suffer as much from blinds / blocks as the AA chain does.
Anyway im not saying LS does need a nerf, i’m just saying if they nerf it (and they will) i could live most with a dmg nerf (or shift some damage over to FS like u suggested), but they should complete the set to compensate, because seriously DD has absolutely no use whatsoever
(edited by Sizzle Hint.1820)
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
If they have to, move some of the damage from LS to FS – reducing the overall damage of the 2 skills by just straight reducing LS is silly, they hit on par with Auto attack in the same timeframe – yes, they have stronger attached effects than AA, but they also cost init…so it seems fairly balanced to me.
That is not true, AA chain takes over 2 seconds (you can easily check this by chainign 2 AA chains, the second CS will hit AFTER the 2 second Cripple / Weakness has run out -> over 2 seconds), i can nearly chain 2x FS / LS in that time frame, and that is definetly more damage than an AA chain, not to mention the utility is a lot better + it doesnt suffer as much from blinds / blocks as the AA chain does.
Anyway im not saying LS does need a nerf, i’m just saying if they nerf it (and they will) i could live most with a dmg nerf, but they should complete the set to compensate, because seriously DD has absolutely no use whatsoever
I don’t remember the math specifically off the top of my head, but I think your method is off because the aftercast of crippling strike is skewing your assessment (since you’re judging from using 2 AA chains in a row).
If I recall correctly, the time it takes to complete 1 AA chain is roughly equivalent with the time it takes to complete 1 FS→LS.
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
If they have to, move some of the damage from LS to FS – reducing the overall damage of the 2 skills by just straight reducing LS is silly, they hit on par with Auto attack in the same timeframe – yes, they have stronger attached effects than AA, but they also cost init…so it seems fairly balanced to me.
That is not true, AA chain takes over 2 seconds (you can easily check this by chainign 2 AA chains, the second CS will hit AFTER the 2 second Cripple / Weakness has run out -> over 2 seconds), i can nearly chain 2x FS / LS in that time frame, and that is definetly more damage than an AA chain, not to mention the utility is a lot better + it doesnt suffer as much from blinds / blocks as the AA chain does.
Anyway im not saying LS does need a nerf, i’m just saying if they nerf it (and they will) i could live most with a dmg nerf, but they should complete the set to compensate, because seriously DD has absolutely no use whatsoever
I don’t remember the math specifically off the top of my head, but I think your method is off because the aftercast of crippling strike is skewing your assessment (since you’re judging from using 2 AA chains in a row).
If I recall correctly, the time it takes to complete 1 AA chain is roughly equivalent with the time it takes to complete 1 FS->LS.
and pistol whip
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
If they have to, move some of the damage from LS to FS – reducing the overall damage of the 2 skills by just straight reducing LS is silly, they hit on par with Auto attack in the same timeframe – yes, they have stronger attached effects than AA, but they also cost init…so it seems fairly balanced to me.
That is not true, AA chain takes over 2 seconds (you can easily check this by chainign 2 AA chains, the second CS will hit AFTER the 2 second Cripple / Weakness has run out -> over 2 seconds), i can nearly chain 2x FS / LS in that time frame, and that is definetly more damage than an AA chain, not to mention the utility is a lot better + it doesnt suffer as much from blinds / blocks as the AA chain does.
Anyway im not saying LS does need a nerf, i’m just saying if they nerf it (and they will) i could live most with a dmg nerf, but they should complete the set to compensate, because seriously DD has absolutely no use whatsoever
I don’t remember the math specifically off the top of my head, but I think your method is off because the aftercast of crippling strike is skewing your assessment (since you’re judging from using 2 AA chains in a row).
If I recall correctly, the time it takes to complete 1 AA chain is roughly equivalent with the time it takes to complete 1 FS->LS.
Yea the aftercast alters the result a bit agree, sadly i dont rly know how to figure it out exactly it would be quite interesting to know. If i had to guess i would say AA chain takes around 1,5 – 2 seconds, since the second CS hits after the Cripple has run out (delay being the AC delay of the first CS)
FS + LS → 1 second cast time
Slash + CS → 1 second cast time, that is without slice because it is instant, so you have to count that in too which means the whole AA chain takes definetly more time than 1 second
Normally I’d just attribute it to more baseless stupid Thief hate, but the Devs are in on it too.
I’d really like then to give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume the Devs just have it out for us like so many players.
I doubt it’s the constant dodging. That already got nerfed pretty hard recently, and hardly even needed that with how weak the damage and versatility were, and how fast you’d drop the moment you made a single mistake.It’s almost invariably going to be a nerf to Inf Strike / Shadow Return, and it will probably ruin S/D.
I can’t imagine why they’d nerf LS damage – LS and CS are the only attacks that hit for any decent damage. Without LS to fill in the gaps, S/D is going to get pasted trying to facetank long enough to get to the end of an AA chain.
I doubt they will nerf IS / SR, it’s either going to be LS or dodge spam in general.
Any nerf to dodges is likely going to have a minor effect on those ineffectively spamming dodges mindlessly, and a major effect on those of us who use the skill appropriately.
S/D is a fairly strong set, but I just don’t see how it’s “broken” – 40% of the weapnset skillbar is borderline useless.
I agree with you, even tho i could live with a damage nerf to LS IF they make DD useful to compensate
If they have to, move some of the damage from LS to FS – reducing the overall damage of the 2 skills by just straight reducing LS is silly, they hit on par with Auto attack in the same timeframe – yes, they have stronger attached effects than AA, but they also cost init…so it seems fairly balanced to me.
That is not true, AA chain takes over 2 seconds (you can easily check this by chainign 2 AA chains, the second CS will hit AFTER the 2 second Cripple / Weakness has run out -> over 2 seconds), i can nearly chain 2x FS / LS in that time frame, and that is definetly more damage than an AA chain, not to mention the utility is a lot better + it doesnt suffer as much from blinds / blocks as the AA chain does.
Anyway im not saying LS does need a nerf, i’m just saying if they nerf it (and they will) i could live most with a dmg nerf, but they should complete the set to compensate, because seriously DD has absolutely no use whatsoever
I don’t remember the math specifically off the top of my head, but I think your method is off because the aftercast of crippling strike is skewing your assessment (since you’re judging from using 2 AA chains in a row).
If I recall correctly, the time it takes to complete 1 AA chain is roughly equivalent with the time it takes to complete 1 FS->LS.
Yea the aftercast alters the result a bit agree, sadly i dont rly know how to figure it out exactly it would be quite interesting to know. If i had to guess i would say AA chain takes around 1,5 – 2 seconds, since the second CS hits after the Cripple has run out (delay being the AC delay of the first CS)
FS + LS -> 1 second cast time
Slash + CS -> 1 second cast time, that is without slice because it is instant, so you have to count that in too which means the whole AA chain takes definetly more time than 1 second
Yes, and AA does more damage than FS->LS. When you normalize them for time, they do similar DPS. My initial post was poorly worded – AA and FS→LS have almost the same DPS.
What if CS in the auto attack chain were buffed in power so that you had to choose between doing more DPS or evading. Nerfing LS would probably be the wrong way to go. (A carrot instead of a stick for once)
My initial post was poorly worded – AA and FS->LS have almost the same DPS.
No they don’t. AA is free. As soon as you ran out of Init, FS/LS’s DPS goes down. While you wait for Init regen, your DPS suffers.
Backstab is OP.
Heartseeker is OP
Stealth is OP.
Blind tanking is OP.
Bleed spam is OP.
Headshot is OP (totally not the runes of perplexity; it’s just thieves).
Dodging is OP.
Now you know that one weapon set with no burst damage? The one with slow, telegraphed attacks and one neat trick where it takes your boons? But not in that cool way like Mesmers or Necro where they share them with their friends or turn them into conditions. Rather more frequently in the same ongoing theme of slow and obvious. Yeah, you know the one. We used to joke about how much it sucked back in the day.
That’s OP too.
Please kindly stand still in your P/- spec. You may spam Repeater if you like, to promote the illusion of fighting back and possibly trigger confusion or retaliation. But no utilities. We wouldn’t want you to accidentally win.
And it would have to be main hand pistol only, because I think that’s the only thing in the profession I haven’t heard blood-curdling cries of abuse over yet. But mark my words now, that won’t last. Body Shot will one day get its expected makeover. And the hills will echo with the cries of OP.
And it would have to be main hand pistol only, because I think that’s the only thing in the profession I haven’t heard blood-curdling cries of abuse over yet. But mark my words now, that won’t last. Body Shot will one day get its expected makeover. And the hills will echo with the cries of OP.
Nope too late. Body Shot is OP.
It went from 3stacks 8s, to 5 stacks 6s, to 10stacks 3s. :/
And it would have to be main hand pistol only, because I think that’s the only thing in the profession I haven’t heard blood-curdling cries of abuse over yet. But mark my words now, that won’t last. Body Shot will one day get its expected makeover. And the hills will echo with the cries of OP.
Nope too late. Body Shot is OP.
It went from 3stacks 8s, to 5 stacks 6s, to 10stacks 3s. :/
I saw the change, but didn’t do much with it after giving up on P/D. I just assumed that since there were builds on several professions capable of perma-maintaining anywhere from 10 to 25 vulnerability solo with little to no effort, that we’d be free of that rage. The Runes of Perplexity thief hate should have taught me otherwise. I don’t learn so good.
My initial post was poorly worded – AA and FS->LS have almost the same DPS.
No they don’t. AA is free. As soon as you ran out of Init, FS/LS’s DPS goes down. While you wait for Init regen, your DPS suffers.
Obviously.
We’re not taking into account all the differences between the 2, just comparing the DPS in a bubble to point out that FS→LS doesn’t need a damage nerf, because DPS is on par with auto attack.
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