Why is our stealth so garbage?
I agree with you. Not only does engineer arguably have the best stealth at the moment (factor in Toss Elixer S, sneak gyro and smoke bomb blasting), they also have the best anti-stealth with a reveal trait as well as Gyro Toolbelt AOE reveal – and this is what kittenes me off. I’d be content with thief’s stealth as it is, if we ALSO had decent reveal to counter other stealth users, but as it stands we don’t.
You should either be good at stealthing OR good at revealing, not both.
La Fantoma – Aurora Glade
And don’t even make preparedness baseline, just remove preparedness from the game and make every thief skill that uses initiative cost 1 less initiative.
La Fantoma – Aurora Glade
I agree with you. Not only does engineer arguably have the best stealth at the moment (factor in Toss Elixer S, sneak gyro and smoke bomb blasting), they also have the best anti-stealth with a reveal trait as well as Gyro Toolbelt AOE reveal – and this is what kittenes me off. I’d be content with thief’s stealth as it is, if we ALSO had decent reveal to counter other stealth users, but as it stands we don’t.
You should either be good at stealthing OR good at revealing, not both.
Completely agree, even though I still don’t get why other professions have stealth in the first place. Or even why guardian has instant cast burst traps, and we have this complete garbage of trap set WITH cast time.
(edited by rylark.3418)
Dare I say, because ArenaNet has troubles balancing stealth to not seem OP to inexperienced players, they rather hand it out to everyone to even the playing field.
“Oh poor Mr. Ranger, you were thief food for 3 years.. Shh, don’t worry – here, you get stealth on Longbow and you get a new pet that creates a smoke field for you to stealth in. Also here is a reveal skill for you. ’
“Oh poor mesmers, you were eaten alive by thieves for 3 years.. Shh, don’t worry – here is a trait that doubles your stealth time and gives you all the best boons in the game’.
La Fantoma – Aurora Glade
(edited by godmoney.6025)
Because Anet devs are brainless made thief into garbage class.
Even gyro and mesmer got better stealth than us + so many reveals on almost every profession now.
and almost every single profession does better damage than us and its bloody aoe spammable.
[…] You could argue with shadow refuge giving a decent amount, which is true, but might as well sound a horn when we put it down and add a giant sign saying “SPAM TRAPS/PULSING CC HERE”. Like come on, even engineers get in stealth easier than us.
Okay, I really don’t understand the point here. You are complaining about SR saying “spam traps/pulsing cc here” and then you are complaining scrapper has too good access to stealth? Sneak Gyro shows the position of the scrapper in stealth the whole time, because it is following him. Also Sneak Gyro is an elite skill, SR is just a utility.
[…] You could argue with shadow refuge giving a decent amount, which is true, but might as well sound a horn when we put it down and add a giant sign saying “SPAM TRAPS/PULSING CC HERE”. Like come on, even engineers get in stealth easier than us. […]
Okay, I really don’t understand the point here. You are complaining about SR saying “spam traps/pulsing cc here” and then you are complaining scrapper has too good access to stealth? Sneak Gyro shows the position of the scrapper in stealth the whole time, because it is following him. Also Sneak Gyro is an elite skill, SR is just a utility.
[…] You could argue with shadow refuge giving a decent amount, which is true, but might as well sound a horn when we put it down and add a giant sign saying “SPAM TRAPS/PULSING CC HERE”. Like come on, even engineers get in stealth easier than us. […]
Okay, I really don’t understand the point here. You are complaining about SR saying “spam traps/pulsing cc here” and then you are complaining scrapper has too good access to stealth? Sneak Gyro shows the position of the scrapper in stealth the whole time, because it is following him. Also Sneak Gyro is an elite skill, SR is just a utility.
Yeah, an elite with half the cd that our utility has and it moves.
[…] You could argue with shadow refuge giving a decent amount, which is true, but might as well sound a horn when we put it down and add a giant sign saying “SPAM TRAPS/PULSING CC HERE”. Like come on, even engineers get in stealth easier than us. […]
Okay, I really don’t understand the point here. You are complaining about SR saying “spam traps/pulsing cc here” and then you are complaining scrapper has too good access to stealth? Sneak Gyro shows the position of the scrapper in stealth the whole time, because it is following him. Also Sneak Gyro is an elite skill, SR is just a utility.
Yeah, an elite with half the cd that our utility has and it moves.
Was going to answer this but I will also add that, you know, he’s an engineer with easier access to stealth than us thieves.
Dare I say, because ArenaNet has troubles balancing stealth to not seem OP to inexperienced players,…
Stealth is OP fullstop, whichever class, for the simple reason it is a bad mechanic, that is impossible to balance, that at times you see ESL players flapping at fresh air for a stealthed player who is now not even in the area and making their way to another capture point, is a fine example of why it is bad, as a mechanic it is incredibly one sided, where one player severely lacks meaningful information so resorts to guesstimating.
Which is why once there was a dev studio (when they had balls) that didn’t have stealth in their game, precisely because it was impossible to balance, but they caved in to the nabs who love the the skilless easymode crutch that stealth is.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
Dare I say, because ArenaNet has troubles balancing stealth to not seem OP to inexperienced players,…
Stealth is OP fullstop, whichever class, for the simple reason it is a bad mechanic, that is impossible to balance, that at times you see ESL players flapping at fresh air for a stealthed player who is now not even in the area and making their way to another capture point, is a fine example of why it is bad, as a mechanic it is incredibly one sided, where one player severely lacks meaningful information so resorts to guesstimating.
Which is why once there was a dev studio (when they had balls) that didn’t have stealth in their game, precisely because it was impossible to balance, but they caved in to the nabs who love the the skilless easymode crutch that stealth is.
I would agree if the stealth lasted for 10sec or even more, but it doesn’t (unless you use Shadow Refuge, which by the way I don’t like, or waste a ton of resources). Usually it lasts 2-3 seconds which gives the player time to re-position himself or retreat from the fight, this is not OP. League of legends doesn’t suffer from stealth mechanics, nor does Aion, nor does DotA, etc. because they know how to deal with it, Anet doesn’t.
A lot of the game mechanics involves around guessing, not just stealth. Guessing when the enemy is about to use a heal, or any other casting skill and interrupt it for example. Guessing what their strategy is, where they’ll rotate, etc. etc.
Also if you actually want to bring the “skilless easymode” to the argument, I could just throw every single passive trait at you. Which by the way the thief lacks of.
because stealth is op?
Not even sure where to start on this post…
The only class that has stealth that’s nearly as useful as thief stealth is Engi with Stealth Gyro. In PvE, it’s clearly superior. In PvP, it’s roughly equivalent for starting a match with an organized group (where the other team knows your stealthed, but doesn’t know your split due to stealth). In team fights, it’s a real nuisance to counter. However, you can’t roam the map undetected like a thief can.
It’s getting a fair nerf.
As for why we have to spend so many resources for stealth? Seems pretty obvious. We’re the only class that gets additional mechanics from stealth (backstab and such).
Usually it lasts 2-3 seconds…
Not really, Toss Elixir S – 6 secs, sneak gyro if they stay in it any length of time much more, groups blasting smoke fields to set up an opener 10 sec+, mass invis 5 / 7.5 secs, 3 HS through black powder, chaining stealth skills together, etc
A lot of the game mechanics involves around guessing, not just stealth. Guessing when the enemy is about to use a heal,
Not really comparable as the opponent has much more info available like the health of the player, is the opponent trying to LOS / kite to get a heal off, the heal animation to interrupt (on well designed heals, instant / super fast heals are a different matter), one cooldown to keep track of, etc.
Where as with stealth you can try hit the opponent to see if your autoattack changes (which in itself is an issue for many classes weaponsets that can’t do that) and then it is just guesstimating.
Also if you actually want to bring the “skilless easymode” to the argument, I could just throw every single passive trait at you. Which by the way the thief lacks of.
Whilst some passive traits are skilless easymode that do too much, others are fairly minor and are needed due to the way classes are designed differently, none are on the level of impact of stealth, beyond that just because something is “active” doesn’t make it skilful, auto targeted instant teleports for example are pretty skilless easymode.
Regardless, two wrongs don’t make a right.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
Not really, Toss Elixir S – 6 secs, sneak gyro if they stay in it any length of time much more, groups blasting smoke fields to set up an opener 10 sec+, mass invis 5 / 7.5 secs, 3 HS through black powder, chaining stealth skills together, etc
Like I said, with wasting a lot of resources to manage such time. Are you even reading?
Not really comparable as the opponent has much more info available like the health of the player, is the opponent trying to LOS / kite to get a heal off, the heal animation to interrupt (on well designed heals, instant / super fast heals are a different matter), one cooldown to keep track of, etc.
And with 2-3sec stealth you know where your opponent was when he got into stealth, that’s already a decent info for you to know where to “guess”. It’s not even hard to counter this low stealth duration, there are so many blocks, invulnerables, stun breakers, etc. It’s more than enough to counter stealth, just keep moving around and be ready.
Whilst some passive traits are skilless easymode that do too much, others are fairly minor and are needed due to the way classes are designed differently, none are on the level of impact of stealth, beyond that just because something is “active” doesn’t make it skilful, auto targeted instant teleports for example are pretty skilless easymode.
I’d rather have them completely removed, I’m no fan of something doing the job for you to the point that you don’t even need to click. You’re right, something for just being active isn’t skilled, but it’s not braindead like passive is. You cannot think around just skillshots, there must be targeted skills specially for professions who specialize around that. cough thief cough.
Not even sure where to start on this post…
As for why we have to spend so many resources for stealth? Seems pretty obvious. We’re the only class that gets additional mechanics from stealth (backstab and such).
You’re right here, I shouldn’t have complained about that. It’s pretty obvious actually, it’s the payment for being able to sneak around someone with such amount of time.
Like I said, with wasting a lot of resources to manage such time. Are you even reading?
Since when was toss elixir S, mass invis, multiple people using short cooldown blast finsihers in a smoke field, etc “wasting a lot of resources”.
And with 2-3sec stealth …
Outside of your magic kingdom where no one in three years used elixir S toss, mass invis, stealth gyro, shadow refuge, more than one HS in to black powder, group blasts for an opener, etc over half the stealth in the game is over 2-3 secs…
I’d rather have them completely removed, I’m no fan of something doing the job for you to the point that you don’t even need to click. You’re right, something for just being active isn’t skilled, but it’s not braindead like passive is.
If you want them totally removed then classes would have to be redesigned and homogenised, so it isn’t going to happen.
Also when it comes to passives and relatively few on thief, I note many miss or conveniently ignore why thief can get away with fewer passives, as an “active” class thief is relatively easy to play because it has tools / mechancis that make being “active” very easy like a lot of low cast time skills, instant skills and no cooldowns on weapon skills.
And there are plenty of “braindead” active skills in this game, take the previously mentioned instant teleports, if I Judge’s Intervention or Steal to my opponent, nearly all the emphasis in terms of skill, reaction, counterplay, etc is on my opponent, rather than me and the 1200 range braindead instant skill I use and no checking they aren’t blocking, etc does not equate to equality of these things. (and let’s not even go into the skilless faceroll cheese that using these from that range through walls where the other player cannot even see me is)
You cannot think around just skillshots, there must be targeted skills specially for professions who specialize around that. cough thief cough.
Not really, the reason that most skills in this game are targeted is that the skill cap needs to be kept low, because it is an MMO with a casual, very mixed ablity customerbase, so they have a sort of faux action combat where the majority of it is still autotargeted to keep things easy and not place anything near the sort of mechanical demands that games with a real skill cap take like SC2, CS, etc, and then add actual blocking, dodge and a minority of skills that need to be aimed (though most aren’t really skill shots) to give a sort of illusion of real action combat, whilst keeping it very easy / low skilled to play.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
Since when was toss elixir S, mass invis, multiple people using short cooldown blast finsihers in a smoke field, etc “wasting a lot of resources”.
Using shortbow + black powder wastes the full initiative to reach more than 3sec, wasting SR isn’t “a lot of resources” but it’s still an utility with a decent cooldown. Stop mentioning other invis mechanics, besides thief, since I don’t even think they should exist in the first place.
Outside of your magic kingdom where no one in three years used elixir S toss, mass invis, stealth gyro, shadow refuge, more than one HS in to black powder, group blasts for an opener, etc over half the stealth in the game is over 2-3 secs…
Again, don’t care about other stealth mechanics. Already mentioned that using SR or black powder + anything else uses the full initiative which is a decent cost.
If you want them totally removed then classes would have to be redesigned and homogenised, so it isn’t going to happen.
Also when it comes to passives and relatively few on thief, I note many miss or conveniently ignore why thief can get away with fewer passives, as an “active” class thief is relatively easy to play because it has tools / mechancis that make being “active” very easy like a lot of low cast time skills, instant skills and no cooldowns on weapon skills.
And there are plenty of “braindead” active skills in this game, take the previously mentioned instant teleports, if I Judge’s Intervention or Steal to my opponent, nearly all the emphasis in terms of skill, reaction, counterplay, etc is on my opponent, rather than me and the 1200 range braindead instant skill I use and no checking they aren’t blocking, etc does not equate to equality of these things. (and let’s not even go into the skilless faceroll cheese that using these from that range through walls where the other player cannot even see me is)
You just cannot argue that active skills are as braindead as passive ones, it’s logical that something that does the job for you is automatically easier.
Instant-teleports simply cannot be skillshots for obvious reasons, it would be just ridiculously hard to hit them as the game already gives an awkward feeling to aim at something (at least for me). It goes through walls because there’s a lot of terrain bugs and issues, previously the teleport couldn’t go through walls which was a complete bug fest.
Not really, the reason that most skills in this game are targeted is that the skill cap needs to be kept low, because it is an MMO with a casual, very mixed ablity customerbase, so they have a sort of faux action combat where the majority of it is still autotargeted to keep things easy and not place anything near the sort of mechanical demands that games with a real skill cap take like SC2, CS, etc, and then add actual blocking, dodge and a minority of skills that need to be aimed (though most aren’t really skill shots) to give a sort of illusion of real action combat, whilst keeping it very easy / low skilled to play.
The actual reason is because skill shots just don’t really fit this type of game, therefore the reason you don’t see many in other MMO’s. GW2 already feels sluggish enough with after-casts and what not, adding more and more skillshots would be terrible.
Don’t get me wrong, I love high-skill gap games, I’m diamond in LoL and supreme on CS:GO. But those are completely different games, it’s a bad comparison.
Using shortbow + black powder wastes the full initiative to reach more than 3sec
If you mean shortbow into a smoke field as in a group blasting for an opener, no it isn’t wasting resources, because you build up 14 secs of stealth and generally do it some distance from the point, so have time to recover.
“a lot of resources” but it’s still an utility with a decent cooldown.
So what, it has been used a lot over the course of this game and is way more than 3 sec stealth, it is also group stealth which is another issue with stealth in this game, I couldn’t care less about your made up rules for what counts and what doesn’t.
Also what about HS into BP, maybe you are the only player in existence that has only ever used one HS, newsflash the rest us of often use more, and don’t give me this nonsense about using up a resource, backstab requires no initiative and the resource is fast regenerating, plus there are utility skills / traits to get it back quicker.
Same thing for disengaging, mesmers + thieves will happily chain stealth skills together if they need to disengage, again way longer than 2-3 secs.
Stop mentioning other invis mechanics, besides thief, since I don’t even think they should exist in the first place.
LOL so because you don’t think it shouldn’t exist on other classes no one should discuss other stealth in a thread that is comparing thief stealth to other stealth, I realise it is inconvenient when you come out with nonsense like stealth is 2—3 secs, and you have actual facts pointed out that contradict that, but no, I am no going to stop going on about other stealth, if you don’t like that, tough.
Again, don’t care about other stealth mechanics. Already mentioned that using SR or black powder + anything else uses the full initiative which is a decent cost.
And I again I couldn’t care less if you don’t care about other stealth mechanics, nor about your silly made up rules for why SR or anything else shouldn’t count, so again tough.
You just cannot argue that active skills are as braindead as passive ones…
I didn’t argue that, I simply find that often when people go on about passives, they often give the impression that everything “active” in this game is skillful and fine, which is far from the truth.
That they also ignore or seem ignorant of both the design considerations and differences between classes that mean some passives are needed for certain classes, due to design, and that some classes like thief have a significant advantage due to design when it comes to being “active”, and finally seem oblivious to the fact they are playing a casual MMO, not SC2, so the devs have to make it so classes have easier builds available, because the playerbase is going to be very mixed in both why different people play and in ability, I was just highlighting that.
Instant-teleports simply cannot be skillshots for obvious reasons, it would be just ridiculously hard to hit them as the game already gives an awkward feeling to aim at something (at least for me).
Eles manage to use their blink to hit targets (it has a 120 radius), it’s certainly much easier than a headshot in most FPS, aside from that it isn’t simply about it not being a skill shot, it is about how one sided an instant auto targeted teleport is, much like stealth.
Plus in respects it is still ‘playing the game for you’, the game is doing too much for your button press, there is frankly a lot of that on so called “active” skills in this game, like back when we had bunker guard with shout runes, one press of stand your ground, breaks stun, AOE stab / retal, AOE condi clear, all without aiming, on an instant skill.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
because stealth is op?
why give it to classes that are already really strong?
just a side note, gyro can be casted whil stunned, refuge- not~
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
(edited by Cynz.9437)