Guild Wars 2

When I went to thief I wanted to do something different with it, I like P/P it is very fun. However those few of us who actually play P/P thieves know there are more powerful builds for thieves. Obviously it doesn’t bother us so much but I’m just curious as to why the P/P build has been untouched for a while specifically. I know there has been plenty of changes to thieves in general, mostly involving around stealth. My P/P is built around mobility, speed and range DPS, which stealth does not compliment so I am stealthless.

This is not a complain, I love P/P thief but with other builds being complimented more and more it’s not easy to sit and look at every one else eat lol. Kind of complacent at being fully aware that other thief builds are just more powerful when done right. That’s not the issue, I can still 1v1 pretty decently just because I’m so used to the flow of my build. Hence I would not like a drastic change if any, but something a little more shiny maybe? With crit being nerfed a bit, it kinda put’s P/P builds in a worse spot than before, which honestly…P/P thieves are laughed at most of the time, maybe it because not many exist or maybe most know cookie cutter builds are there for a reason. I don’t know, anyhow happy hunting.

I guess my question is why no love for stealthless P/P thieves

From what I’ve witnessed, its probably because of its low utility and poor synergy with itself.

Its bleed capability is bad compared to d/d and its autoattack and #2 are weak. These only get better with boon duration. Then you have the #3 which is better for power builds which make the auto and #2 almost useless. #5 places a smoke field on your location but since this is a ranged build it is not worth the initiative cost to fire from a distance.

Again, this is just from what I have seen.

Yea P/P thieves mostly find our selves spamming 3 all day, not a complain but the reality and practical application of the weapon skills. Sometimes 2 is good in situations we love the option too, and 4. Yea I agree the autoattack is pretty weak because most P/P thieves are not condition based. When the perplexity runes first came out I loved it because it actually allowed us to play Dire on P/P and kill, giving us the defense needed sometimes to outlast an opponent. But after the perplexity nerf had to go back to full zerk, now it’s worse than before after this last patch.

I think the auto attack is weak for the build though, but I do like every other weapon skill. They do fit some situations perfectly, I would not like them to change except #1.

Not sure how to approach it honestly, just seems lackluster in comparison to other popular builds. Maybe endurance procs? Maybe initiative procs? Maybe more passive initiative in traits for P/P duel wield?

It’s not necessarily a bad thing to be running a Thief spec that ArenaNet isn’t aware exists.

^
This is true…lol

But it would be nice if there were more thief buffs not centered around stealth.

I think their strategy is to have some very bad weapon sets so that the others look that much better…

I actually love the weapon setup honestly, the only thing lacking is the auto attack. While when I did play around with D/D, the auto attack is mostly what I spammed lol, ofcourse the other’s were good too though. I do love all the weapon skills except for #1 though, not fitting for Power based build at all.

Come to think about it, that auto attack skill might be handy in the near future. If it looks like I might be going back to the nerfed perplexities, not sure yet. I’m content on where it’s at for the most part, but it would be cool to have some thief buffs here and there not focused around stealth is all I guess.

only real bad part about P/P is that it has no evade on it’s skill kit (whereas the other two ranged sets do) besides that if the basic attacks did more damage then it would be perfect. though i have been using P/P with S/D in PvP and so far i am likin it cause the blind tanking helps when classes like war lock you down. ATM it’s playable and still good single target damage but you just have less escape/evade potential,

I imagine because mainhand pistol is already pretty great on a P/D set. And offhand pistol is pretty great on D/P and S/P sets. They really couldn’t improve the 1,2,4,5 skills without making P/D, D/P, and S/P stronger.

The only way for Anet to really improve P/P without messing with the balance of other weapon sets is to work on Unload. However, Unload is generally what P/P teefs spam to begin with.

If it was not for unload, there would be no reason to go P/P tbh.

@OP

I don’t know about you, but the improvement to the initiative gain is a M-M-MAAAAASSSIVE BUFF to P/P.

Joking aside, the initiative gain is indeed a big buff to P/P but yes, it still need more love specifically Unload.

What kind of p/p thieves are you using build wise? I’m curios b/c I’ve been using it for a while and I promise it is much more effective than people give it credit for. Stealth is very good for a p/p thief and should not be overlooked.

It’s like running a dual short bow build. It is extremely fun, but not even a fraction as effective because no one knows we exist. It’s sad really, that stealthless builds get no love, but oh well.

P/P has remained near worthless since launch, which is inexcusable – especially when the problem is so obvious and so easy to address.

Vital Shot is underpowered. This means that your main source of damage is an Initiative hog. This means that you pulse damage rather than stream it, leading to horrible sustained DPS.

This in itself would be bad enough, but what makes it even worse is that Initiative is a shared resource. Making your damage dependent on it causes your utility to always take a back seat. Trying to squeeze any utility out of P/P requires dumping far too much damage, and vice versa. Hence, the set is utterly broken.

In short, P/P is #3 spam fest with-
Bad sustained DPS
Bad utility
Poor mobility
Mediocre to slightly above average spike damage

I play a Thief P/P since pre-release.

Its funny how I only use 3. SOMETIMES 4. And even less 2.

I have 1,500 hours of playing my only character which is a thief and I don’t play stealth.
I can assure you there’s barely any other decent build for thief.
Venom thiefs are a joke.
Pistols is a joke.
Tank is a joke.

I’ve tried it all. Right now I’m a mix between Venoms and Tank, which is ok for PvE but really lackluster on PvP.

But don’t worry, our time will come.

I usually P/P to start a fight (in PvE), a few #2’s for the vuln, a few #3’s, then F1 to get in close and switch to D/D to finish them off.

For big bosses, I just run around in P/P avoiding damage, using #2 for the vuln, and #4 to remove Defiant.

yolo swaggins.2570:

From what I’ve witnessed, its probably because of its low utility and poor synergy with itself.

Then you haven’t witnessed much. The utility P/P gives is great (easy interrupts and stomps), and all attacks (projectiles) have synergy with black powder, but there is even more.

Stolen items work the best with pistol main-hand and pistol off-hand. Example: you are ranged, but axe stolen from a warrior combined with smoke suddenly makes you very dangerous in melee. ‘Throw gunk’ is very effective aswell, because you can apply multiple stacks of confusion. If you combine it with ‘panic strike’, this is very hard kicking. ‘Throw feathers’ from thief allows you to proc a combo field on your way x5 or create a gap for safe unloads, maybe even both.

There are many very effective synergies only possible to P/P. Condi P/P is bad, but somehow people I meet are surprised when they realize I’m playing it power.

Dagins.5163:

yolo swaggins.2570:

From what I’ve witnessed, its probably because of its low utility and poor synergy with itself.

Then you haven’t witnessed much. The utility P/P gives is great (easy interrupts and stomps), and all attacks (projectiles) have synergy with black powder, but there is even more.

Stolen items work the best with pistol main-hand and pistol off-hand. Example: you are ranged, but axe stolen from a warrior combined with smoke suddenly makes you very dangerous in melee. ‘Throw gunk’ is very effective aswell, because you can apply multiple stacks of confusion. If you combine it with ‘panic strike’, this is very hard kicking. ‘Throw feathers’ from thief allows you to proc a combo field on your way x5 or create a gap for safe unloads, maybe even both.

There are many very effective synergies only possible to P/P. Condi P/P is bad, but somehow people I meet are surprised when they realize I’m playing it power.

Couldn’t you gain the same benefits from using D/P + SB along with the increased mobility, untraited AoE, not to mention the group utility with the blast finishers?

@Maugetarr
You just said something like ,,couldn’t you use spoon instead of fork in a restaurant?".

Actually, I use two weapon sets (like majority here) – p/p with <surprise> shortbow.

Dagins.5163:

@Maugetarr
You just said something like ,,couldn’t you use spoon instead of fork in a restaurant?".

Actually, I use two weapon sets (like majority here) – p/p with <surprise> shortbow.

In that line of analogy then I was trying to suggest that using P/P is like using that fork to eat a bowl of soup; you can, but there are better options.

And what if you don’t want to eat the soup? Surprisingly, even seasoned players have problems countering it, because they don’t know what to expect.

Anyway, for WvW d/p is mostly better option, but only because of its chasing capabilities with shadow shot, since noobs (especially warriors) tend to run away when they are low HP, and there are lots of situations like this. In sPvP its a different story, and there it is truly fork vs. spoon argue.

Dagins.5163:

And what if you don’t want to eat the soup? Surprisingly, even seasoned players have problems countering it, because they don’t know what to expect.

Anyway, for WvW d/p is mostly better option, but only because of its chasing capabilities with shadow shot, since noobs (especially warriors) tend to run away when they are low HP, and there are lots of situations like this. In sPvP its a different story, and there it is truly fork vs. spoon argue.

If it’s working well for you that’s great. TeamBattleAxe has been the only video I’ve seen that made it look good. In my original post, I was trying to suggest that D/P and SB might cover the same situations and more. I also didn’t consider bringing 2 ranged weapons on a thief when I read your original post because I don’t think like that. It’s much easier for me to give up ranged weapons for a melee only build. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Can one of you link a P/P build for me? I have an 80 thief that I was trying to use for P/P but I just couldn’t find anything that worked all that well. I always loved the idea but like so many, I got sucked into the D/D + SB concept to the point I quick playing the character all together.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vYAQNAqaVlsMpvpdPx0JsPNRs9onAlncFcq2DaiTYC-TsAg0CnIQShkDJDSSksINsYBxECA

It is made mostly for ambushes and fire support in sPvP. With that much power, might and crit, you can one-shot another glass cannon from range, and finish off fleeing low HP enemies without problem.

It is almost impossible to balance dual pistol thieves outside of focusing on our 3 skill. The primary problem is how well the 1,2,4, and 5 skills are set up to synergize for the other builds. What we would need changed or buffed to make them useful for dual pistol weaknesses would make them too strong for the stealth builds that use them also.

Dual Pistol generally lacks in aoe by nature of it’s attacks, and a lower survivability in comparison to other thief builds without gutting dps and/or mobility. Unlike more popular builds you can have one, but not both. If you buff the 1,2,4, or 5 skills to make up for this it would allow other builds to utilize them as well and free up more utility slots and/or alternate weapon options for them to further increase their ability.

The only way, in my opinion, to buff dual pistol is to do one of two things:
1) buff the 3 ability to either do higher single target dps than typical abilities or add an aoe component. I don’t see them doing this because, despite what they may say, some balancing is done around 1v1 and the crying would be loud if the single target was much higher.
2) Add utilities that are specific to dual pistol weilding. An ability like Dagger Storm that only functioned when dual wielding pistols. Not holding my breath on that one either as at this point in development I don’t see them introducing new utilities that require specific weapon combos and having to appease other classes demanding the same for rarely used weapon combos.

Short version though to answer your question:
They have implied multiple times that their design time goes towards the more popular game segments. When they admit more time/resources are spent on humans as they are more popular… then it is fair to believe they won’t spend much time developing the dual pistol build for much the same reason.

Soon as I wrote that I had a great idea (at least one I would be happy about).

Add a utility ability that stacks a power (or crit) buff which resets on stealth. Just like the weapon stacking buff it can give you a +5 for each kill and reset to zero when you stealth, die, or weapon swap. While encouraging thieves to not stealth, the reality is that only dual pistol thieves would use it and it would be a simple way to buff all 5 abilities to something closer to where they need to be when playing dual pistol.

FinalPatriot.8034:

Can one of you link a P/P build for me? I have an 80 thief that I was trying to use for P/P but I just couldn’t find anything that worked all that well. I always loved the idea but like so many, I got sucked into the D/D + SB concept to the point I quick playing the character all together.

I use this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vYEQRAqa4YlsMpwpVPx8JsPRRspAo/krQR9PQWdG0slA-zg1AorAizwQawoOICCIRBjKAk9Gia6DLBCWDLiGrSHRvgpLBUnQaUYtLqHHxdg5PgcIAeE4AAIAEGNA-e

Dagins.5163:

yolo swaggins.2570:

From what I’ve witnessed, its probably because of its low utility and poor synergy with itself.

Then you haven’t witnessed much. The utility P/P gives is great (easy interrupts and stomps), and all attacks (projectiles) have synergy with black powder, but there is even more.

Stolen items work the best with pistol main-hand and pistol off-hand. Example: you are ranged, but axe stolen from a warrior combined with smoke suddenly makes you very dangerous in melee. ‘Throw gunk’ is very effective aswell, because you can apply multiple stacks of confusion. If you combine it with ‘panic strike’, this is very hard kicking. ‘Throw feathers’ from thief allows you to proc a combo field on your way x5 or create a gap for safe unloads, maybe even both.

There are many very effective synergies only possible to P/P. Condi P/P is bad, but somehow people I meet are surprised when they realize I’m playing it power.

No, P/P’s utility is terrible – not because the skills themselves are terrible, but because to use them you have to siphon resources away from your main source of damage. Thief P/P is the only set in the entire game with this problem, and it’s why it’s broken and has been since launch.

The problem, as I’ve talked about numerous times, revolves around how weak Vital Shot is. It makes you too dependent on Initiative to maintain any semblance of reasonable damage. You simply have to sacrifice too much to get much use out of P/P’s utility.

I tried out a p/p build in spvp.

Basically uses signet of malice, caltrops, and the other 2 given utilities. (Shadowstep and Shadow refuge) All you really need is 30 in trickery and get the ricochet trait. It’s somewhat useful in team fights, but still not on par with other builds.

Here’s what I’ve concluded on p/p.

1. Very obvious. They rely on 1 skill for dps, and that skill is rather easy to negate if the enemy has even a little awareness of their surroundings. I tested this by making a spec for p/p that solely focused on spamming 3, evading, maybe interrupt a heal here and there and evasion. Since the aa is a hybrid and the remaining 3 skills are utility you’re left with #3 for a majority of your damage which is either expensive, weak, or little of both. The lack of a suitable #2 and low dps on #3 I was only slapping people and killing people who still use A and D to turn in pvp.

2. The utility from #2/4/5 doesn’t do much good to the thief defense. #2 has a long aftercast, #4 doesnt’ last you in the long run, #5 only affects those who aren’t aware you can melee outside the circle or range. Other weapon sets have strong evasion or can reposition themselves either from teleports or stealth.

As fun as it can be, it’s not practical for a thief in any pvp enviroment. If they just changed the #2 to something useful then maybe it can partake in competitive play but right now its just not comparable to the rest.

NinjaEd.3946:

Here’s what I’ve concluded on p/p.

1. Very obvious. They rely on 1 skill for dps, and that skill is rather easy to negate if the enemy has even a little awareness of their surroundings. I tested this by making a spec for p/p that solely focused on spamming 3, evading, maybe interrupt a heal here and there and evasion. Since the aa is a hybrid and the remaining 3 skills are utility you’re left with #3 for a majority of your damage which is either expensive, weak, or little of both. The lack of a suitable #2 and low dps on #3 I was only slapping people and killing people who still use A and D to turn in pvp.

You need to use it more often before you conclude because your conclusion is not representative of how P/P is actually used.

The common misconception is that P/P is mainly to spam skill #3. You can’t be anymore wrong.

Think about it, what does P/D uses as their main source of damage? Got that?

Now look at D/P and S/P on how they are using skill #4 and #5. Got that?

Knowing that, look at on how you’re building around P/P — sad right? You got the wrong idea about P/P.

If you put any points into CS or SA, then you’ve already failed at P/P. Might as well use other build.

2. The utility from #2/4/5 doesn’t do much good to the thief defense. #2 has a long aftercast, #4 doesnt’ last you in the long run, #5 only affects those who aren’t aware you can melee outside the circle or range. Other weapon sets have strong evasion or can reposition themselves either from teleports or stealth.

Then you’re using it wrong. Whoever said that you have to remain at a far distance using P/P? This set is effective either at far range or close range.

Also, I never seen a Thief who insist on standing on the smoke zone while enemy melee them from the outside the zone. That’s has L2P issue written all over it.

As fun as it can be, it’s not practical for a thief in any pvp enviroment. If they just changed the #2 to something useful then maybe it can partake in competitive play but right now its just not comparable to the rest.

I don’t know about that. Where ever P/D is viable, so is P/P. You really just have to learn how to use the weapon set starting with a (6/x/x/x/6) build.

Help me out here, I think I am missing where you are coming from.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Think about it, what does P/D uses as their main source of damage? Got that?

P/D stack conditions, and generally make themselves hard to target by utilizing the 3 skill and cloak and dagger. The 3 skill in this case is also used in stacking conditions. Relying on this sort of play for the 1 and 2 abilities when playing P/P results in lower damage (lower condition damage) with weaker mitigation (blindness vs stealth), and a dual skill no longer worth using because you have geared for conditions and should keep spamming 1.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Now look at D/P and S/P on how they are using skill #4 and #5. Got that?

When I watch other play D/P I see the 4 as an interrupt with heavy utilization of the 5 skill for perma stealth. Their main source of damage is sword or dagger. P/P loses the prime attraction of the 5 skill to someone playing D/P. S/P primary damage comes from the sword and the 3 of that combo is also a prime attraction of that set.

What you describe seems like a lower dps Condition build with less escape options. Am I missing something about how you think it should play?

MrQuillen.3014:

Help me out here, I think I am missing where you are coming from.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Think about it, what does P/D uses as their main source of damage? Got that?

P/D stack conditions, and generally make themselves hard to target by utilizing the 3 skill and cloak and dagger. The 3 skill in this case is also used in stacking conditions. Relying on this sort of play for the 1 and 2 abilities when playing P/P results in lower damage (lower condition damage) with weaker mitigation (blindness vs stealth), and a dual skill no longer worth using because you have geared for conditions and should keep spamming 1.

Warmer. You’re on the right path.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Now look at D/P and S/P on how they are using skill #4 and #5. Got that?

When I watch other play D/P I see the 4 as an interrupt with heavy utilization of the 5 skill for perma stealth. Their main source of damage is sword or dagger. P/P loses the prime attraction of the 5 skill to someone playing D/P. S/P primary damage comes from the sword and the 3 of that combo is also a prime attraction of that set.

Note, S/P has no access to perma-stealth, thus that thought is not applicable. You need to look for what is applicable for both set since it is also applicable for all x/P set.

What you describe seems like a lower dps Condition build with less escape options.

Are you suggesting that main hand pistol is suddenly have less condition damage just because the off-hand is also a pistol?

Also are you saying that S/P has less escape option? P/P have escape option, you just have to know when to use them.

You have to look at the strengths, not the weaknesses.

Am I missing something about how you think it should play?

Yup.

“Are you suggesting that main hand pistol is suddenly have less condition damage just because the off-hand is also a pistol?”

Are you suggesting the 1 skill is the only condition dealing ability?

“Also are you saying that S/P has less escape option?”

Are you suggesting I wasn’t also talking about D/P?

Are you suggesting that strengths of the P/P combo are not present on any other combination in the absence of utilizing the 3 skills?

If you want to discuss great, if you just want to throw vague questions out I don’t have time for that game thanks.

Dagins.5163:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vYAQNAqaVlsMpvpdPx0JsPNRs9onAlncFcq2DaiTYC-TsAg0CnIQShkDJDSSksINsYBxECA

It is made mostly for ambushes and fire support in sPvP. With that much power, might and crit, you can one-shot another glass cannon from range, and finish off fleeing low HP enemies without problem.

You bring a P/P anywhere near a competent group of players or a team in tPvP and you’ll be the biggest and deadest joke on the battlefield. I have met exactly zero P/P thieves in PvP that gave anyone a problem and I play every day.

@Static
I used to play it in 50-100 soloque few months ago, and it was even before initiative buff, what made it much stronger.

P/P has always been bad, nothing changed to make it viable, for me as a thief, these P/P thieves are easy kills and if they are on my team… they are useless, why ppl insist in playing P/P is beyond my comprehension…

Dagins.5163:

@Static
I used to play it in 50-100 soloque few months ago, and it was even before initiative buff, what made it much stronger.

Stronger than what? No other weapon combo on thief….

P/P is a free kill, it’s garbage tier in tPvP.

Static.9841:

Dagins.5163:

@Static
I used to play it in 50-100 soloque few months ago, and it was even before initiative buff, what made it much stronger.

Stronger than what? No other weapon combo on thief….

P/P is a free kill, it’s garbage tier in tPvP.

I ran it for a while, and I agree. It also generates more complaints about spam than any other build I have played, which I don’t disagree with.

MrQuillen.3014:

“Are you suggesting that main hand pistol is suddenly have less condition damage just because the off-hand is also a pistol?”

Are you suggesting the 1 skill is the only condition dealing ability?

You said condition damage, not condition dealing ability. I have over 1.2k condition damage and that never changes regardless of what weapon I choose.

You’re suggesting that all of a sudden my condition damage changes just because my off-hand weapon changes.

“Also are you saying that S/P has less escape option?”

Are you suggesting I wasn’t also talking about D/P?

I know you’re talking about D/P, which is not applicable to S/P. You’re cherry picking.

Are you suggesting that strengths of the P/P combo are not present on any other combination in the absence of utilizing the 3 skills?

One thing for sure, if you think that you have to spam 3 on a P/P weapon set to make viable is proof that you don’t know how P/P works.

Since you cannot grasp the concept nor you’re willing to understand it, let’s just leave it at that. You use whatever weapon set you like and speak only of those weapon set, but don’t speak on the behalf of P/P.

Fair enough?

If you want to discuss great, if you just want to throw vague questions out I don’t have time for that game thanks.

But it is a game.

Many Thieves are still scratching their head on how to solve the P/P puzzle.

You keep talking about strengths off the set quite vaguely. People are pointing out that it does not have a strength via 1,2,4, or 5. If you want to debate that great but you need to provide something besides “I have a secret”. Strentgth by any definition of the term implies that you believe that combination of abilities is “better” than the alternate available combinations.

Please pick any combination of your choosing to compare to and explain how you think it is more effective otherwise you really still have not added anything of value and sound like you are just trolling.

MrQuillen.3014:

You keep talking about strengths off the set quite vaguely.

How is it vague? If you know how to use P/D, then it’s plain as daylight. The source of damage is the same — condition damage.

Can P/P apply condition better than P/D? Of course not — because P/D have access to Torment.

But can P/P apply the same pressure as P/D? Of course not — because it can do better.

While P/D relies solely on applying conditions, once the conditions are cleansed, they’re SoL. P/P on the hand can constantly apply pressure from two sources; condition damage and direct damage.

Is it still vague for you?

People are pointing out that it does not have a strength via 1,2,4, or 5.

That’s because they don’t know how to play using P/P. Like I’ve already pointed out; if your mind set is that P/P is all about skill #3 spam, then you’ve already set yourself up to fail when using P/P.

If you want to debate that great but you need to provide something besides “I have a secret”.

Debate what? How can we possible have a debate when the opposition have no understanding about the main topic (P/P)?

Strentgth by any definition of the term implies that you believe that combination of abilities is “better” than the alternate available combinations.

What makes you believe that the alternative is “better” that P/P?

We can go around in circles asking each other that question.

Please pick any combination of your choosing to compare to and explain how you think it is more effective otherwise you really still have not added anything of value and sound like you are just trolling.

^ Read above.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

MrQuillen.3014:

You keep talking about strengths off the set quite vaguely.

How is it vague? If you know how to use P/D, then it’s plain as daylight. The source of damage is the same — condition damage.

Can P/P apply condition better than P/D? Of course not — because P/D have access to Torment.

But can P/P apply the same pressure as P/D? Of course not — because it can do better.

While P/D relies solely on applying conditions, once the conditions are cleansed, they’re SoL. P/P on the hand can constantly apply pressure from two sources; condition damage and direct damage.

Is it still vague for you?

People are pointing out that it does not have a strength via 1,2,4, or 5.

That’s because they don’t know how to play using P/P. Like I’ve already pointed out; if your mind set is that P/P is all about skill #3 spam, then you’ve already set yourself up to fail when using P/P.

If you want to debate that great but you need to provide something besides “I have a secret”.

Debate what? How can we possible have a debate when the opposition have no understanding about the main topic (P/P)?

Strentgth by any definition of the term implies that you believe that combination of abilities is “better” than the alternate available combinations.

What makes you believe that the alternative is “better” that P/P?

We can go around in circles asking each other that question.

Please pick any combination of your choosing to compare to and explain how you think it is more effective otherwise you really still have not added anything of value and sound like you are just trolling.

^ Read above.

What about SB though?

Good physical damage
Decent condi damage
Bouncing AA without traiting for it
AoE poison, AoE bleeds, AoE weakness, and Cripple
Blast Finishers
Evade frames
Mobility

Just a simple question: Why should I take P/P over SB when choosing a ranged weapon?

I recently started a P/P non-stealth thief and have leveled to only 20 so far. This is easily the worst build I’ve ever played on any class. Borderline unplayable. Running with two signets and potion/food buffs and the damage output is still pathetic. Takes two rounds of unload to kill one trash enemy at my level, and then I’m nearly out of initiative. Pretty clear that not one person at Anet has ever played a P/P thief for even 5 minutes.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

I recently started a P/P non-stealth thief and have leveled to only 20 so far. This is easily the worst build I’ve ever played on any class. Borderline unplayable. Running with two signets and potion/food buffs and the damage output is still pathetic. Takes two rounds of unload to kill one trash enemy at my level, and then I’m nearly out of initiative. Pretty clear that not one person at Anet has ever played a P/P thief for even 5 minutes.

That’s partly because you’re low leveled. Unload does decent dps when traited properly, and the additional bounces from unload are also pretty strong. That said, p/p as a whole is still weaker than the alternative weapon sets, and shortbow is probably a better choice for a ranged weapon.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

I recently started a P/P non-stealth thief and have leveled to only 20 so far. This is easily the worst build I’ve ever played on any class. Borderline unplayable. Running with two signets and potion/food buffs and the damage output is still pathetic. Takes two rounds of unload to kill one trash enemy at my level, and then I’m nearly out of initiative. Pretty clear that not one person at Anet has ever played a P/P thief for even 5 minutes.

You just won lolz! How many lolz you ask? ALL THE LOLZ!!!

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3299578

(A lot of us were hoping changes to P/P might come after this)

Maugetarr.6823:

What about SB though?

Good physical damage
Decent condi damage
Bouncing AA without traiting for it
AoE poison, AoE bleeds, AoE weakness, and Cripple
Blast Finishers
Evade frames
Mobility

Just a simple question: Why should I take P/P over SB when choosing a ranged weapon?

SB has its own set of problems and here’s the main reasons why I opt in for P/P instead of SB;

1. Physical Damage – The damage output of SB is pathetic when it comes to single target. P/P deals more damage against single target and can spec for Ricochet for AoE damage.
2. Condition Damage – The capability of P/P in stacking bleed is much more better than SB. Even though SB has access to poison, but the fact that poison doesn’t stack intensity (and the nerf on Choking Gas) makes SB a poor choice for applying conditions. Still the best choice on applying poison, but in terms of damage from condition it falls short.
3. Bouncing AA – This used to be great when it was 1200 range with homing projectiles — but not anymore. You can Throw snowballs farther than you can shoot with SB. As for the Bouncing Projectile, it’s not that great. Even though you have to spec for Ricochet, the amount of bullets you can unleashed with one Unload is enough to make SB’s AA insignificant.
4. AoE – I admit that AoE is the strength of the SB and this is the only reason why I would use it. In terms of AoE damage and AoE condition application, it’s the best. However, executing the AoE is clunky and susceptible to interrupts. Not to mention the pre-cast and after cast delays.
5. Evade – Good and bad. Good when you have a lot of space to evade to (and it don’t glitch on a tiny rock or shallow slope). Bad when you’re in a limited space, debris all around, and sloped terrain. P/P have access to AoE blind and blind applicator bullets. In most situation, blind is better defense than evade.
6. Mobility – No argument here. SB has the best mobility. However, not enough reason for me to choose SB over P/P, just look at what I have to give up for mobility.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

What about SB though?

Good physical damage
Decent condi damage
Bouncing AA without traiting for it
AoE poison, AoE bleeds, AoE weakness, and Cripple
Blast Finishers
Evade frames
Mobility

Just a simple question: Why should I take P/P over SB when choosing a ranged weapon?

SB has its own set of problems and here’s the main reasons why I opt in for P/P instead of SB;

1. Physical Damage – The damage output of SB is pathetic when it comes to single target. P/P deals more damage against single target and can spec for Ricochet for AoE damage.
2. Condition Damage – The capability of P/P in stacking bleed is much more better than SB. Even though SB has access to poison, but the fact that poison doesn’t stack intensity (and the nerf on Choking Gas) makes SB a poor choice for applying conditions. Still the best choice on applying poison, but in terms of damage from condition it falls short.
3. Bouncing AA – This used to be great when it was 1200 range with homing projectiles — but not anymore. You can Throw snowballs farther than you can shoot with SB. As for the Bouncing Projectile, it’s not that great. Even though you have to spec for Ricochet, the amount of bullets you can unleashed with one Unload is enough to make SB’s AA insignificant.
4. AoE – I admit that AoE is the strength of the SB and this is the only reason why I would use it. In terms of AoE damage and AoE condition application, it’s the best. However, executing the AoE is clunky and susceptible to interrupts. Not to mention the pre-cast and after cast delays.
5. Evade – Good and bad. Good when you have a lot of space to evade to (and it don’t glitch on a tiny rock or shallow slope). Bad when you’re in a limited space, debris all around, and sloped terrain. P/P have access to AoE blind and blind applicator bullets. In most situation, blind is better defense than evade.
6. Mobility – No argument here. SB has the best mobility. However, not enough reason for me to choose SB over P/P, just look at what I have to give up for mobility.

I guess it’s coming down to preference then. I have never gotten enough damage out of unload compared to the initiative cost to use that over 2xCB from shortbow. I wish they had left the homing projectiles since the projectile speed is so slow, but honestly the 900 range CB doesn’t bother me since it took forever to land at that range. I can still hit rams at the gate.

I don’t see how anybody can argue that P/P is good – it’s very obviously not. It’s not just about people being “unload spam”-minded; the simple fact is, as I’ve pointed out many times – its ‘primary’ source of damage – Vital Shot – is weaker than it should by by a significant margin.

This means two things – one, you will have problems keeping up good sustained damage in any prolonged engagement, and b., you have to heavily lean on Initiative just to supplement your damage enough for P/P to even be usable, which doesn’t actually help because it limits your mobility AND bars you from making much use of the set’s utility.

The set is flat-out garbage at the baseline, and becomes only barely mediocre when traited for Ricochet. It’s unreal to me that they’ve gone 1.5 years without giving Vital Shot a buff it very obviously needs.

The reason you guys are arguing, however, is that Shortbow really isn’t much better. However, Shortbow’s weakness is part of a larger design quirk where, since it’s specialized for AoE damage, it’s intended to be bad for single target. This makes P/P more versatile when traited for Ricochet. Don’t mistake that versatility for being good. Ricochet is a half-kitten band-aid for an awful set.