Guild Wars 2

I’ve been lurking on the forums for some time, looking for info and suck and the great majority of the threads i see are all salty about thief being op and whatnot. Now i ask you why all the salt? Are you annoyed that thieves got stealth and and extra dodges? No CD on weapon skills? Well you don’t have to. If you don’t build for stealth, you won’t get it, or get it in low numbers with small benefits (looking a CnD and Backstab ICD here). You say thieves spam weapon skills? Dodge, cc, fear them or make them waste that precious ini that is in limited number so that he can aa only.
But thieves have so much dodge, why can’t i hit? Condi is your friend here… Thieves melt with condi, with 13k hp in glass gear they will melt.

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters? This is coming from a thief, and I love the class over any others.

Cheers and thanks for reading.

Edit – typos i think

Who do you hope is your audience is here? Posting this in the thief forum is a bit like going to a church and asking why some people aren’t keen on Jesus.

Choppy.4183:

Who do you hope is your audience is here? Posting this in the thief forum is a bit like going to a church and asking why some people aren’t keen on Jesus.

Well I’m looking mostly at the people who complain about thief. Since all the salt is here maybe some enlightenment will come… who knows…

Long story short: people don’t like losing or being wrong and will find any reason to absolve themselves of wrongdoing or mistakes.

I think lot of the salt is from players that got denied revenge after some thief killed them several times in outnumbered match. Basically, the better the thief does its job of decapping and +1ing, the more frustrated and salty people are.

Well, speaking only about small scale and 1v1 in wvw, I find thief has way too much forgiveness to it. It’s no longer a matter of highly skilled people being able to pull off dramatic wins through a high risk:high reward playstyle. It now allows average and low skill players to recover from countless mistakes to eventually win through attrition.

As a point of comparison, people used to complain a lot about Nike warriors in the same way. The current incarnation of daredevil puts the old Nike warrior to shame in terms of mobility, but also has far more cheesy build options and requires much less in terms of sacrifices or tradeoffs.

For example, a standard d+p/sb thief has way more in and out of combat mobility than the old Nike warrior, way more burst, way more defense potential, the same old control over fight initiation that always caused salt to be thrown at thieves, and then loads of burst.

So I get the salt from that perspective, but I can’t deny the limitations of the class in other contexts. I’d personally like to see the thief to be evened out with other classes in small scale and simultaneously buffed to expand its usefulness in other aspects of the game.

I think its because, of all the different profession mechanics, thieves have the most annoying set (apart from perhaps mesmer). Stealth, massive amounts of evades and the ability to easily flee if the fight isn’t going their way.
Personally though, I don’t mind thieves. I’ve killed more thieves than any other profession and been killed by more thieves than any other profession.

Choppy.4183:

Well, speaking only about small scale and 1v1 in wvw, I find thief has way too much forgiveness to it. It’s no longer a matter of highly skilled people being able to pull off dramatic wins through a high risk:high reward playstyle. It now allows average and low skill players to recover from countless mistakes to eventually win through attrition.

As a point of comparison, people used to complain a lot about Nike warriors in the same way. The current incarnation of daredevil puts the old Nike warrior to shame in terms of mobility, but also has far more cheesy build options and requires much less in terms of sacrifices or tradeoffs.

For example, a standard d+p/sb thief has way more in and out of combat mobility than the old Nike warrior, way more burst, way more defense potential, the same old control over fight initiation that always caused salt to be thrown at thieves, and then loads of burst.

So I get the salt from that perspective, but I can’t deny the limitations of the class in other contexts. I’d personally like to see the thief to be evened out with other classes in small scale and simultaneously buffed to expand its usefulness in other aspects of the game.

Its def no secret that there are unbalanced classes in the game, however as someone who started out as a noob teef about 2-3 months ago I can say that if a thief makes a mistake, its always fatal so there’s very little “forgiveness” unless the opponent(s) don’t catch it (in which the opponent is part blame).

There is also a lot of good “risk vs reward” fights, and I couldn’t tell you how many I have been in. I also do not run sb or staff so my mobility isn’t as great as a meta teef. With the amount of AOE’s, Traps, revealing abilities (these ones actually help me…Revealed Training ftw,lol) and bursty builds out there, there is still a good level of skill involved to get a win (maybe not as high of skill pre HoT but there is still a good level of skill involved…Ive seen some terribad thieves that can prove this,lol)

Ive received lots of salt, esp from condi chronos and berserkers (the main 2 classes/builds i get salt from actually) ranging from “Cheeze, use a real build noob”…here im like “really? Pot calling the kettle black dont you think?” to “HA, you needed to stealth to kill me”…here im like “Uhhh really yeah, and you needed your weapons to attack me and to do your damage, whats your point?”

TL:DR Stuff happens, theres still a good level of risk and uhhh….ppl need to stop being salty…not like I throw salt at berzerkers or condi reapers or condi chronos.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Its def no secret that there are unbalanced classes in the game, however as someone who started out as a noob teef about 2-3 months ago I can say that if a thief makes a mistake, its always fatal so there’s very little “forgiveness” unless the opponent(s) don’t catch it (in which the opponent is part blame).

I just don’t see it like that anymore. Used to be true, but not any more.

For example, it used to be that you might be able to lock a thief down with immobilize or with a well timed stun (after baiting out Hard to Catch and Shadow Step). Now immobilize is removed on dodge (and there are more dodges than ever) and, in addition to the aforementioned stun defenses, you’ve got Bandit’s Defense on a 15s cd.

When you combine the ability to not be held down with the amount of easy mobility available to the class (through teleporting, movement speed, movement skills), stealth, and evades built into high damage skills, it makes for very forgiving builds that very low skill players can get a lot of mileage on. Combine that with melee and medium range options on most builds, and that’s a big toolkit.

That doesn’t mean no thieves have skill (obviously), nor that thieves will win every fight. But I regularly fight thieves who eat nearly every burst I put out (I play zerk gear warrior, have some really obvious tells), yet they can squeeze a lot of do-overs into that fight that isn’t a product of skill.

Like I said before, I see how thief is kitten in other areas. That’s why I’d support buffing the thief in some respects while also doing things to address issues like unparalleled escape potential and either reducing the reward (damage) in small scale or increasing the risk.

EDIT: I do know that other classes have their own issues that need to be addressed, including stuff that really bones thieves. I don’t think warriors pose much of a threat to thieves anymore post-patch, but others do, sure.

Choppy.4183:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Its def no secret that there are unbalanced classes in the game, however as someone who started out as a noob teef about 2-3 months ago I can say that if a thief makes a mistake, its always fatal so there’s very little “forgiveness” unless the opponent(s) don’t catch it (in which the opponent is part blame).

I just don’t see it like that anymore. Used to be true, but not any more.

For example, it used to be that you might be able to lock a thief down with immobilize or with a well timed stun (after baiting out Hard to Catch and Shadow Step). Now immobilize is removed on dodge (and there are more dodges than ever) and, in addition to the aforementioned stun defenses, you’ve got Bandit’s Defense on a 15s cd.

When you combine the ability to not be held down with the amount of easy mobility available to the class (through teleporting, movement speed, movement skills), stealth, and evades built into high damage skills, it makes for very forgiving builds that very low skill players can get a lot of mileage on. Combine that with melee and medium range options on most builds, and that’s a big toolkit.

That doesn’t mean no thieves have skill (obviously), nor that thieves will win every fight. But I regularly fight thieves who eat nearly every burst I put out (I play zerk gear warrior, have some really obvious tells), yet they can squeeze a lot of do-overs into that fight that isn’t a product of skill.

Like I said before, I see how thief is kitten in other areas. That’s why I’d support buffing the thief in some respects while also doing things to address issues like unparalleled escape potential and either reducing the reward (damage) in small scale or increasing the risk.

EDIT: I do know that other classes have their own issues that need to be addressed, including stuff that really bones thieves. I don’t think warriors pose much of a threat to thieves anymore post-patch, but others do, sure.

I can respect what you are saying. A lot of thieves (not I or the 6-7 other thieves I know) run Bandits defense as its the only thing they have to eat bursts if they are unprepared for it (as in unable to stealth or shadowstep away). I agree that Bandits Defense needs to be toned down (either set the CD to 20s or remove the CC on it or remove the “stun breaker” on it). I Assume that, like scrappers Stealth Gyro or half of the hammer skills, this will also be changed/toned down down the road.

Berserkers still post a threat once you bait out the BD, just means they have to do a bit more work (wont take much tho)

Well it is true true that BD has saved my kitten a whole lot of times, but in all honesty i don’t find it that unbalanced. You pop it once, block/stunbreak and if you don’t have anything else, youre dead tbh. At least for me that is the only defensive utility that i run, it makes it worth to time it properly to survive. Also staff is nice in wvw but i still prefer d/d

Every profession’s forum has salt. Right now is just Thief’s time of the month.

For those still salty, there is a post in WvW forum on teaching people how to fight a thief. Maybe pro thieves here can go share more there so people will be be less salty =D

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Please-teach-me-how-to-fight-a-Daredevil/first#post6581639

EremiteAngel.9765:

For those still salty, there is a post in WvW forum on teaching people how to fight a thief. Maybe pro thieves here can go share more there so people will be be less salty =D

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Please-teach-me-how-to-fight-a-Daredevil/first#post6581639

There’s not really much more that can be added to help people kick our kitten lol.

Because thieves have tools to get away and majority of players want a punching bag that rewards them with a loot bag. Simple as it is. They don’t care that due to their escape tools thieves also can’t hold points, can’t duel most classes, bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

Daredevil is really forgiving relative to core.
Condi in general is really forgiving.

So you can see where this is going.

Until they round out most of the elite specs and not make them overpowered, everyone’s gonna be salty. But this is extremely unlikely because it would require major overhauls and ANet doesn’t do those.

A slight correction for you btw Choppy; the old Nike warrior actually had higher landspeed than the thief unless the thief ran an entire build of gap-closers and initiative restores (really bad for anything but strictly moving around, unlike Nike Warrior having some potency from Strength/Defense traitlines), at the cost of no vertical mobility. Depending on what environment you were in, this was a back-and-forth between the two. Obviously it now favors Daredevil in all environments.

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is really forgiving relative to core.
Condi in general is really forgiving.

So you can see where this is going.

Until they round out most of the elite specs and not make them overpowered, everyone’s gonna be salty. But this is extremely unlikely because it would require major overhauls and ANet doesn’t do those.

A slight correction for you btw Choppy; the old Nike warrior actually had higher landspeed than the thief unless the thief ran an entire build of gap-closers and initiative restores (really bad for anything but strictly moving around, unlike Nike Warrior having some potency from Strength/Defense traitlines), at the cost of no vertical mobility. Depending on what environment you were in, this was a back-and-forth between the two. Obviously it now favors Daredevil in all environments.

Daredevil is a bit more forgiving relative to core.

Fixed it for ya

Wouldn’t go as far as to say “really” forgiving but due ot the extra dodge (with effects) does make it a bit forgiving.

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

how explanatory~

please show me how thief can heal other, share boons consistently, give blocks etc.

i am sure no necro would like a thief as support lol

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

how explanatory~

please show me how thief can heal other, share boons consistently, give blocks etc.

i am sure no necro would like a thief as support lol

*Thieves can heal others via Skelk Venom, wich is crap. Channeled Vigor offer a better sustain/mobility wich is needed to help allies.
*The boon stripping/sharing it’s on a 20 sec, high cd but with high impact
*CC > Aegis: you can negate more enemy damage
*Black Powder’s Blind can negate some damage

Thief support:
-forcing the enemy team in disadvantage by decapping (can negate 1 man’s damage)
-make use of it’s mobility to quickly turn the tides of the match by +1
-providing bursty buff via Steal Thrill of the Crime/Bountiful Theft combo, now more powerful without pulsing stability
-quickstomping, making downed allies rally or cc sharing
-stop stomping/ressing/cleaving via Chocking Gas, wich even provide a great help to Reapers that can provide the initial stack of poison needed to proc the daze and slaughter nearby dazed foes. Poison whirl deals more damage than Deathly Chill’s proc in PvP and are more bursty, thieves can offer a good cc/burst option to help reapers while saving their Executioner’s Scythe and Infusing Terror, usually used to make Executioner’s Scythe connect.

Like if healing and boon sharing were the only support ability in this game..

Zilong.1407:

Long story short: people don’t like losing or being wrong and will find any reason to absolve themselves of wrongdoing or mistakes.

https://tinyurl.com/mzfcg75

theodor.3480:

Dodge, cc, fear them or make them waste that precious ini that is in limited number so that he can aa only.
But thieves have so much dodge, why can’t i hit? Condi is your friend here… Thieves melt with condi, with 13k hp in glass gear they will melt.

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters? This is coming from a thief, and I love the class over any others.

I’ll bite.

Thief has so many dodges, and target-clearing that I can’t hit it with the counters you list.

No wonder you love the class over any others.

Svarty.8019:

theodor.3480:

Dodge, cc, fear them or make them waste that precious ini that is in limited number so that he can aa only.
But thieves have so much dodge, why can’t i hit? Condi is your friend here… Thieves melt with condi, with 13k hp in glass gear they will melt.

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters? This is coming from a thief, and I love the class over any others.

I’ll bite.

Thief has so many dodges, and target-clearing that I can’t hit it with the counters you list.

No wonder you love the class over any others.

https://tinyurl.com/mzfcg75

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

how explanatory~

please show me how thief can heal other, share boons consistently, give blocks etc.

i am sure no necro would like a thief as support lol

*Thieves can heal others via Skelk Venom, wich is crap. Channeled Vigor offer a better sustain/mobility wich is needed to help allies.
*The boon stripping/sharing it’s on a 20 sec, high cd but with high impact
*CC > Aegis: you can negate more enemy damage
*Black Powder’s Blind can negate some damage

Thief support:
-forcing the enemy team in disadvantage by decapping (can negate 1 man’s damage)
-make use of it’s mobility to quickly turn the tides of the match by +1
-providing bursty buff via Steal Thrill of the Crime/Bountiful Theft combo, now more powerful without pulsing stability
-quickstomping, making downed allies rally or cc sharing
-stop stomping/ressing/cleaving via Chocking Gas, wich even provide a great help to Reapers that can provide the initial stack of poison needed to proc the daze and slaughter nearby dazed foes. Poison whirl deals more damage than Deathly Chill’s proc in PvP and are more bursty, thieves can offer a good cc/burst option to help reapers while saving their Executioner’s Scythe and Infusing Terror, usually used to make Executioner’s Scythe connect.

Like if healing and boon sharing were the only support ability in this game..

- mes, rev, even druid (on certain maps) can do it just as well
- see point above
- is it really that bursty? Not to mention other classes share more boons/strip them/provide more team dmg in a sense
- i assume you mean elite which vs any half decent team will get either thief killed or interrupted at least. Engis provide stomps without even being in stomp range.
- about any class can provide as much if not more cleave….

Bottom line it none of that is special enough to claim that thief provides team support. Yes, there is some, hence why i said nearly but it is extremely limited and not consistent compared to other classes. People don’t pick thief for support or bunkering point, people pick thief for roaming (which is not support) for a reason (they are really great at it, they just will never be good support with their current kit). And that role is also why thief is designed how it is.

I didn’t read through the replies, so it could have already been addressed by someone else. But I think the people crying about Thief are either angry they cannot kill a highly mobile class. (running away is basically a kill, if you’re not helping your team by avoiding death)

Thieves hit and run tactics with access to ranged to supplement this. A good Thief can counter any class. But this cannot be done by the average Thief, it requires you to match low skill cap classes with a max skill capped Thief. So basically they are angry that a class is much harder to play and much more dangerous, but more rewarding if done correctly.

I honestly do not understand the hate. Thief was designed great in my eyes. This is the nature of the beast of stealth classes, always being squishy, dies easily when in the hands of low skill, and is the ultimate 1v1 class in the hands of someone who can play the class perfectly.

If you take away Thieves 1v1 power, you remove all reason to even play Thief. Because the only way to achieve this power in 1v1s is to be an exceptional player and melee in a squishy class. Many classes designed around the condi meta are uncounterable because the only way to counter them is via cleanses, which are limited, and condis can be spammed by low skill players for high reward.

The low to medium tier condi classes look like the exceptional tier Thieves in PvP because of this, which is honestly why I think it is a little unfair that you have to be so good at Thief just to be on an even playing field with other classes.

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

how explanatory~

please show me how thief can heal other, share boons consistently, give blocks etc.

i am sure no necro would like a thief as support lol

*Thieves can heal others via Skelk Venom, wich is crap. Channeled Vigor offer a better sustain/mobility wich is needed to help allies.
*The boon stripping/sharing it’s on a 20 sec, high cd but with high impact
*CC > Aegis: you can negate more enemy damage
*Black Powder’s Blind can negate some damage

Thief support:
-forcing the enemy team in disadvantage by decapping (can negate 1 man’s damage)
-make use of it’s mobility to quickly turn the tides of the match by +1
-providing bursty buff via Steal Thrill of the Crime/Bountiful Theft combo, now more powerful without pulsing stability
-quickstomping, making downed allies rally or cc sharing
-stop stomping/ressing/cleaving via Chocking Gas, wich even provide a great help to Reapers that can provide the initial stack of poison needed to proc the daze and slaughter nearby dazed foes. Poison whirl deals more damage than Deathly Chill’s proc in PvP and are more bursty, thieves can offer a good cc/burst option to help reapers while saving their Executioner’s Scythe and Infusing Terror, usually used to make Executioner’s Scythe connect.

Like if healing and boon sharing were the only support ability in this game..

- mes, rev, even druid (on certain maps) can do it just as well
- see point above
- is it really that bursty? Not to mention other classes share more boons/strip them/provide more team dmg in a sense
- i assume you mean elite which vs any half decent team will get either thief killed or interrupted at least. Engis provide stomps without even being in stomp range.
- about any class can provide as much if not more cleave….

Bottom line it none of that is special enough to claim that thief provides team support. Yes, there is some, hence why i said nearly but it is extremely limited and not consistent compared to other classes. People don’t pick thief for support or bunkering point, people pick thief for roaming (which is not support) for a reason (they are really great at it, they just will never be good support with their current kit). And that role is also why thief is designed how it is.

-Revenant and Druids are nowhere near good as thieves to decap and +1, Mesmer only while a portal it’s already placed.
- ^
-Well.. might, fury and swiftness aren’t bursty like quickness but makes you hit harder and run faster, other classes can debuff better than thieves but the thief can jump into the fight like Batman while stripping boons, buffing allyies and making it’s burst, then leaving the fight. Other classes have to stay sticked to the fight to make an effective use of their stripping ability, thief it’s about execution speed.
-Basilisk venom are a very good elite and it’s better than impact strike, but with impact strike you can just making use of the last hit teleporting on a downed to turn the tides of a fight. Engi’s Gyro it’s good but it have only 1 stability stack and can be interrupted.
All the things that help your team to win are support.
-You stop the cleave with Chocking Gas.. how many meta build can provide a good pulsing CC?

Turk.5460:

Svarty.8019:

theodor.3480:

Dodge, cc, fear them or make them waste that precious ini that is in limited number so that he can aa only.
But thieves have so much dodge, why can’t i hit? Condi is your friend here… Thieves melt with condi, with 13k hp in glass gear they will melt.

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters? This is coming from a thief, and I love the class over any others.

I’ll bite.

Thief has so many dodges, and target-clearing that I can’t hit it with the counters you list.

No wonder you love the class over any others.

https://tinyurl.com/mzfcg75

I suppose, from that response, that you have nothing rational to back up your opinion.

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

how explanatory~

please show me how thief can heal other, share boons consistently, give blocks etc.

i am sure no necro would like a thief as support lol

*Thieves can heal others via Skelk Venom, wich is crap. Channeled Vigor offer a better sustain/mobility wich is needed to help allies.
*The boon stripping/sharing it’s on a 20 sec, high cd but with high impact
*CC > Aegis: you can negate more enemy damage
*Black Powder’s Blind can negate some damage

Thief support:
-forcing the enemy team in disadvantage by decapping (can negate 1 man’s damage)
-make use of it’s mobility to quickly turn the tides of the match by +1
-providing bursty buff via Steal Thrill of the Crime/Bountiful Theft combo, now more powerful without pulsing stability
-quickstomping, making downed allies rally or cc sharing
-stop stomping/ressing/cleaving via Chocking Gas, wich even provide a great help to Reapers that can provide the initial stack of poison needed to proc the daze and slaughter nearby dazed foes. Poison whirl deals more damage than Deathly Chill’s proc in PvP and are more bursty, thieves can offer a good cc/burst option to help reapers while saving their Executioner’s Scythe and Infusing Terror, usually used to make Executioner’s Scythe connect.

Like if healing and boon sharing were the only support ability in this game..

- mes, rev, even druid (on certain maps) can do it just as well
- see point above
- is it really that bursty? Not to mention other classes share more boons/strip them/provide more team dmg in a sense
- i assume you mean elite which vs any half decent team will get either thief killed or interrupted at least. Engis provide stomps without even being in stomp range.
- about any class can provide as much if not more cleave….

Bottom line it none of that is special enough to claim that thief provides team support. Yes, there is some, hence why i said nearly but it is extremely limited and not consistent compared to other classes. People don’t pick thief for support or bunkering point, people pick thief for roaming (which is not support) for a reason (they are really great at it, they just will never be good support with their current kit). And that role is also why thief is designed how it is.

-Revenant and Druids are nowhere near good as thieves to decap and +1, Mesmer only while a portal it’s already placed.
- ^
-Well.. might, fury and swiftness aren’t bursty like quickness but makes you hit harder and run faster, other classes can debuff better than thieves but the thief can jump into the fight like Batman while stripping boons, buffing allyies and making it’s burst, then leaving the fight. Other classes have to stay sticked to the fight to make an effective use of their stripping ability, thief it’s about execution speed.
-Basilisk venom are a very good elite and it’s better than impact strike, but with impact strike you can just making use of the last hit teleporting on a downed to turn the tides of a fight. Engi’s Gyro it’s good but it have only 1 stability stack and can be interrupted.
All the things that help your team to win are support.
-You stop the cleave with Chocking Gas.. how many meta build can provide a good pulsing CC?

- decaps are not support really, it is part of roamings
- have you ever seen freecasting necro that knows his stuff for example? sticking the fight is not an issue if enemy is dead
- thief can also be interrupted…. actually easier than gyro since last tends to spawn under the ground and is hard to target generally
- you don’t need pulsing cc, one is enough in many cases…. high aoe dmg is probably more effective tbh

Once again, most of those are not really support. Support is healing teammates, provide boons/blocks/invuls and peels.

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

Vitali.5039:

Cynz.9437:

bring nearly 0 team support etc. (at least in pvp).

No.

how explanatory~

please show me how thief can heal other, share boons consistently, give blocks etc.

i am sure no necro would like a thief as support lol

*Thieves can heal others via Skelk Venom, wich is crap. Channeled Vigor offer a better sustain/mobility wich is needed to help allies.
*The boon stripping/sharing it’s on a 20 sec, high cd but with high impact
*CC > Aegis: you can negate more enemy damage
*Black Powder’s Blind can negate some damage

Thief support:
-forcing the enemy team in disadvantage by decapping (can negate 1 man’s damage)
-make use of it’s mobility to quickly turn the tides of the match by +1
-providing bursty buff via Steal Thrill of the Crime/Bountiful Theft combo, now more powerful without pulsing stability
-quickstomping, making downed allies rally or cc sharing
-stop stomping/ressing/cleaving via Chocking Gas, wich even provide a great help to Reapers that can provide the initial stack of poison needed to proc the daze and slaughter nearby dazed foes. Poison whirl deals more damage than Deathly Chill’s proc in PvP and are more bursty, thieves can offer a good cc/burst option to help reapers while saving their Executioner’s Scythe and Infusing Terror, usually used to make Executioner’s Scythe connect.

Like if healing and boon sharing were the only support ability in this game..

- mes, rev, even druid (on certain maps) can do it just as well
- see point above
- is it really that bursty? Not to mention other classes share more boons/strip them/provide more team dmg in a sense
- i assume you mean elite which vs any half decent team will get either thief killed or interrupted at least. Engis provide stomps without even being in stomp range.
- about any class can provide as much if not more cleave….

Bottom line it none of that is special enough to claim that thief provides team support. Yes, there is some, hence why i said nearly but it is extremely limited and not consistent compared to other classes. People don’t pick thief for support or bunkering point, people pick thief for roaming (which is not support) for a reason (they are really great at it, they just will never be good support with their current kit). And that role is also why thief is designed how it is.

-Revenant and Druids are nowhere near good as thieves to decap and +1, Mesmer only while a portal it’s already placed.
- ^
-Well.. might, fury and swiftness aren’t bursty like quickness but makes you hit harder and run faster, other classes can debuff better than thieves but the thief can jump into the fight like Batman while stripping boons, buffing allyies and making it’s burst, then leaving the fight. Other classes have to stay sticked to the fight to make an effective use of their stripping ability, thief it’s about execution speed.
-Basilisk venom are a very good elite and it’s better than impact strike, but with impact strike you can just making use of the last hit teleporting on a downed to turn the tides of a fight. Engi’s Gyro it’s good but it have only 1 stability stack and can be interrupted.
All the things that help your team to win are support.
-You stop the cleave with Chocking Gas.. how many meta build can provide a good pulsing CC?

- decaps are not support really, it is part of roamings
- have you ever seen freecasting necro that knows his stuff for example? sticking the fight is not an issue if enemy is dead
- thief can also be interrupted…. actually easier than gyro since last tends to spawn under the ground and is hard to target generally
- you don’t need pulsing cc, one is enough in many cases…. high aoe dmg is probably more effective tbh

Once again, most of those are not really support. Support is healing teammates, provide boons/blocks/invuls and peels.

-All the things that put your team in advantage it’s support, your team can lose all the fights but win the match if the enemy don’t have caps, even steal the kill of forest’s npc its support
-Yes, i main necromancer and i’m rarely freecasting. Only vs bads to be precise.
-Interrupt a teleport/stomping isn’t so easy. Where are the pvp location where the gyro spawn underground? (never seen that)
-Stop a cleave with more cleave it’s very.. clever

Decapping points and stealing beast is not supporting your team in combat. Its quite the opposite.

Does it support your overall team’s score? Yes. But anyone with 1st grade level reading skills can see that Cynz was clearly talking about combat.

Turk.5460:

Decapping points and stealing beast is not supporting your team in combat. Its quite the opposite.

Does it support your overall team’s score? Yes. But anyone with 1st grade level reading skills can see that Cynz was clearly talking about combat.

Forcing foes to waste time to retake points and stealing beast (other time wasted) it’s support.
While one player it’s forced to stay close the thief can fastly go mid and help his team bursting down the squishy one and then roam again. It’s combat, you see.

Vitali.5039:

Turk.5460:

Decapping points and stealing beast is not supporting your team in combat. Its quite the opposite.

Does it support your overall team’s score? Yes. But anyone with 1st grade level reading skills can see that Cynz was clearly talking about combat.

Forcing foes to waste time to retake points and stealing beast (other time wasted) it’s support.
While one player it’s forced to stay close the thief can fastly go mid and help his team bursting down the squishy one and then roam again. It’s combat, you see.

Is Thief the only one capable of this tactic?

Turk.5460:

Vitali.5039:

Turk.5460:

Decapping points and stealing beast is not supporting your team in combat. Its quite the opposite.

Does it support your overall team’s score? Yes. But anyone with 1st grade level reading skills can see that Cynz was clearly talking about combat.

Forcing foes to waste time to retake points and stealing beast (other time wasted) it’s support.
While one player it’s forced to stay close the thief can fastly go mid and help his team bursting down the squishy one and then roam again. It’s combat, you see.

Is Thief the only one capable of this tactic?

No, but it’s the more suited.

theodor.3480:

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters?

Thieves are perceived to be an easy kill, yet a Thief killed them.

They get humiliated and embarrassed, so they cry.

And their tears produce salt.

EDIT: typo

All thieves should get the vial of salt by default upon winning a pvp match.

:-p

Vitali.5039:

Turk.5460:

Vitali.5039:

Turk.5460:

Decapping points and stealing beast is not supporting your team in combat. Its quite the opposite.

Does it support your overall team’s score? Yes. But anyone with 1st grade level reading skills can see that Cynz was clearly talking about combat.

Forcing foes to waste time to retake points and stealing beast (other time wasted) it’s support.
While one player it’s forced to stay close the thief can fastly go mid and help his team bursting down the squishy one and then roam again. It’s combat, you see.

Is Thief the only one capable of this tactic?

No, but it’s the more suited.

So they’re more suited for this, but they lack team-fight presence and effectiveness to be more suited for this. Whereas other professions are more effective in a team-fight and have stronger presence there, but lack the mobility to contest beasts or decap points as efficiently as thief.

I don’t see the problem here.

Turk.5460:

Vitali.5039:

Turk.5460:

Vitali.5039:

Turk.5460:

Decapping points and stealing beast is not supporting your team in combat. Its quite the opposite.

Does it support your overall team’s score? Yes. But anyone with 1st grade level reading skills can see that Cynz was clearly talking about combat.

Forcing foes to waste time to retake points and stealing beast (other time wasted) it’s support.
While one player it’s forced to stay close the thief can fastly go mid and help his team bursting down the squishy one and then roam again. It’s combat, you see.

Is Thief the only one capable of this tactic?

No, but it’s the more suited.

So they’re more suited for this, but they lack team-fight presence and effectiveness to be more suited for this. Whereas other professions are more effective in a team-fight and have stronger presence there, but lack the mobility to contest beasts or decap points as efficiently as thief.

I don’t see the problem here.

Neither I, in fact I was only answering to Cynz, that was writing about thieves bringing nearly 0 team support.

Svarty.8019:

Turk.5460:

Svarty.8019:

theodor.3480:

Dodge, cc, fear them or make them waste that precious ini that is in limited number so that he can aa only.
But thieves have so much dodge, why can’t i hit? Condi is your friend here… Thieves melt with condi, with 13k hp in glass gear they will melt.

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters? This is coming from a thief, and I love the class over any others.

I’ll bite.

Thief has so many dodges, and target-clearing that I can’t hit it with the counters you list.

No wonder you love the class over any others.

https://tinyurl.com/mzfcg75

I suppose, from that response, that you have nothing rational to back up your opinion.

Should I? Judging by your post history regarding Thieves, none of your opinions have been remotely rational and have all been speculative from best-case scenarios.

Try playing Thief for a while, and if you still think your opinions are valid, please demonstrate by recording yourself playing (non-montage, please) and follow-up with a post here. Please put your money where your mouth is.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is really forgiving relative to core.
Condi in general is really forgiving.

So you can see where this is going.

Until they round out most of the elite specs and not make them overpowered, everyone’s gonna be salty. But this is extremely unlikely because it would require major overhauls and ANet doesn’t do those.

A slight correction for you btw Choppy; the old Nike warrior actually had higher landspeed than the thief unless the thief ran an entire build of gap-closers and initiative restores (really bad for anything but strictly moving around, unlike Nike Warrior having some potency from Strength/Defense traitlines), at the cost of no vertical mobility. Depending on what environment you were in, this was a back-and-forth between the two. Obviously it now favors Daredevil in all environments.

Daredevil is a bit more forgiving relative to core.

Fixed it for ya

Wouldn’t go as far as to say “really” forgiving but due ot the extra dodge (with effects) does make it a bit forgiving.

To a new thief, maybe.

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

So…almost like every other profession?

DeceiverX.8361:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is really forgiving relative to core.
Condi in general is really forgiving.

So you can see where this is going.

Until they round out most of the elite specs and not make them overpowered, everyone’s gonna be salty. But this is extremely unlikely because it would require major overhauls and ANet doesn’t do those.

A slight correction for you btw Choppy; the old Nike warrior actually had higher landspeed than the thief unless the thief ran an entire build of gap-closers and initiative restores (really bad for anything but strictly moving around, unlike Nike Warrior having some potency from Strength/Defense traitlines), at the cost of no vertical mobility. Depending on what environment you were in, this was a back-and-forth between the two. Obviously it now favors Daredevil in all environments.

Daredevil is a bit more forgiving relative to core.

Fixed it for ya

Wouldn’t go as far as to say “really” forgiving but due ot the extra dodge (with effects) does make it a bit forgiving.

To a new thief, maybe.

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Man, if you’re not able to eat new level 80 warriors for breakfast as a thief with even a few hundred hours of experience, you’ve got serious l2p issues. I assume that’s the same with the other classes you mentioned, as well.

Honestly, and especially if we’re talking 1v1 or small scale, you’ve got all the tools you need to manhandle warriors with less (and often more) experience than you.

Larger scale combat, or on a point, no, but anything else? C’mon bra.

Even with lag (going from NA to EU) playing vs new warriors is like cutting through butter with a hot knife. Or should I say a HoT knife :-p

saerni.2584:

Even with lag (going from NA to EU) playing vs new warriors is like cutting through butter with a hot knife. Or should I say a HoT knife :-p

Its really, really, really easy to tell which ones are the new ones, too. I usually don’t go after them a second time.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Man, if you’re not able to eat new level 80 warriors for breakfast as a thief with even a few hundred hours of experience, you’ve got serious l2p issues. I assume that’s the same with the other classes you mentioned, as well.

Honestly, and especially if we’re talking 1v1 or small scale, you’ve got all the tools you need to manhandle warriors with less (and often more) experience than you.

Larger scale combat, or on a point, no, but anything else? C’mon bra.

My argument was for time investment vs skill cap. None of what you said is relevant to this. New 80 Thieves vs new 80 Warriors of equal time investment,Warriors win hands down.

When you start to exponentially invest more time into the Thief class, and learn the mechanics behind it, you can begin to start owning Warriors. You cannot honestly believe what you type.

Your whole argument is about Thief should be nerfed because you must invest exponentially more time into this class, to reap the same rewards other classes have when they get 80 on the get-go. It makes no sense. The Thief class is balanced around high skill cap and being able to 1v1 when you invest this time to reach it.

If you have some valid argument that suggests Thieves are God-tier off the get-go, and can easily pwn scrubs as soon as they get to 80 with sub par skill, let’s hear it. I know for a fact you have no such argument.

Martym.6971:

My argument was for time investment vs skill cap. None of what you said is relevant to this. New 80 Thieves vs new 80 Warriors of equal time investment,Warriors win hands down.

When you start to exponentially invest more time into the Thief class, and learn the mechanics behind it, you can begin to start owning Warriors. You cannot honestly believe what you type.

Your whole argument is about Thief should be nerfed because you must invest exponentially more time into this class, to reap the same rewards other classes have when they get 80 on the get-go. It makes no sense. The Thief class is balanced around high skill cap and being able to 1v1 when you invest this time to reach it.

If you have some valid argument that suggests Thieves are God-tier off the get-go, and can easily pwn scrubs as soon as they get to 80 with sub par skill, let’s hear it. I know for a fact you have no such argument.

On the contrary, you argued equivalence between a thief with thousands of hours of experience and a warrior, dh, and “other classes”.

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve.

Now you’re changing your argument, but still exaggerating your case. Sure, it’s got a lower skill floor than warrior and dh, but let’s be honest, someone at either class’ skill floor is going to ground up into a fine paste in pvp and wvw, unless they’re up against similarly green players.

It doesn’t take that much time fighting to understand the basic toolkit a thief has had its disposal to counter other classes. It doesn’t mean it’s always easy, but it’s never been easier to play a thief than it is now,. The class is much more forgiving to new players than it used to be.

Nice try with that strawman argument though. 8/10 for that one.

Martym.6971:

DeceiverX.8361:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is really forgiving relative to core.
Condi in general is really forgiving.

So you can see where this is going.

Until they round out most of the elite specs and not make them overpowered, everyone’s gonna be salty. But this is extremely unlikely because it would require major overhauls and ANet doesn’t do those.

A slight correction for you btw Choppy; the old Nike warrior actually had higher landspeed than the thief unless the thief ran an entire build of gap-closers and initiative restores (really bad for anything but strictly moving around, unlike Nike Warrior having some potency from Strength/Defense traitlines), at the cost of no vertical mobility. Depending on what environment you were in, this was a back-and-forth between the two. Obviously it now favors Daredevil in all environments.

Daredevil is a bit more forgiving relative to core.

Fixed it for ya

Wouldn’t go as far as to say “really” forgiving but due ot the extra dodge (with effects) does make it a bit forgiving.

To a new thief, maybe.

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

I never said the profession was overpowered. I said it’s easy compared to core.

And it is. Just like every other elite. The notion of outplaying by winning with a thief in it of itself is largely gone in general.

Thief used to require a reasonable degree of skill and knowledge to pull off very unique and very potent maneuvers. Daredevil massively reduces this and simply makes the profession more frustrating than anything to fight against for those not extremely familiar with the profession’s limitations while allowing the thief to survive occasional major misplays or beating opponents playing perfectly for how to beat a core thief but not the Daredevil who may lack the resources to beat them (most other core specs).

Daredevil, pretty much no matter how you look at it, is a dumbed-down version of the thief. It’s not overpowered, but that skill floor is way lower than it used to be, and the reward almost the same across most levels of play.

I main a thief in all game modes atm and started using a burn DH vs teefs is too easy (well…vs most classes/builds anyway)

Thieves are in no way OP…unbalanced? hmmm thats questionable but there are way more classes/builds that need to be looked at before thieves. Thieves are not in THAT bad of a position compared to most.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

My argument was for time investment vs skill cap. None of what you said is relevant to this. New 80 Thieves vs new 80 Warriors of equal time investment,Warriors win hands down.

When you start to exponentially invest more time into the Thief class, and learn the mechanics behind it, you can begin to start owning Warriors. You cannot honestly believe what you type.

Your whole argument is about Thief should be nerfed because you must invest exponentially more time into this class, to reap the same rewards other classes have when they get 80 on the get-go. It makes no sense. The Thief class is balanced around high skill cap and being able to 1v1 when you invest this time to reach it.

If you have some valid argument that suggests Thieves are God-tier off the get-go, and can easily pwn scrubs as soon as they get to 80 with sub par skill, let’s hear it. I know for a fact you have no such argument.

On the contrary, you argued equivalence between a thief with thousands of hours of experience and a warrior, dh, and “other classes”.

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve.

Now you’re changing your argument, but still exaggerating your case. Sure, it’s got a lower skill floor than warrior and dh, but let’s be honest, someone at either class’ skill floor is going to ground up into a fine paste in pvp and wvw, unless they’re up against similarly green players.

It doesn’t take that much time fighting to understand the basic toolkit a thief has had its disposal to counter other classes. It doesn’t mean it’s always easy, but it’s never been easier to play a thief than it is now,. The class is much more forgiving to new players than it used to be.

Nice try with that strawman argument though. 8/10 for that one.

I never argued equivalence. I said YOU achieved. I didn’t say everyone. Nice strawman though. For future reference, try reading my post thoroughly.

You stated the game is on auto-pilot for you after thousands of hours. The quote that I quoted had absolutely no mention of anything BUT auto-pilot from you. I never argued equivalence after 1000’s of hours. Matter of fact I argued AGAINST it.

I stated that Thieves overtook Warriors in the very post you quoted after time investment. Perception is not your strong suit, and making strawmans based on factually made-up and invented nonsense seems to be your strong suit.

Martym.6971:

I never argued equivalence. I said YOU achieved. I didn’t say everyone. Nice strawman though. For future reference, try reading my post thoroughly.

You stated the game is on auto-pilot for you after thousands of hours. The quote that I quoted had absolutely no mention of anything BUT auto-pilot from you. I never argued equivalence after 1000’s of hours. Matter of fact I argued AGAINST it.

I stated that Thieves overtook Warriors in the very post you quoted after time investment. Perception is not your strong suit, and making strawmans based on factually made-up and invented nonsense seems to be your strong suit.

Yeah, see, the cool thing about forums is you can go back and refer to what people actually said.

First of all, you were talking to DeceiverX, not me. Second, if you want to go back to the original claim then you’re saying newly levelled warriors, DHs, etc. are like running autopilot, because, that’s the bit you responded to in DeceiverX’s post. It’s not the number of hours that it takes a thief to get there that’s relevant, it’s the substance of both being in a state of autopilot when it (according to you) applies to warriors, DH, etc. as of level 80.

Do you… have that much trouble killing newly levelled warriors and DHs?

Here’s the original, since you seem to have forgotten.

Martym.6971:

DeceiverX.8361:

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm