Guild Wars 2

I exclusively play WvW and spvp as a thief and have done since launch. The below list attempts to roughly illustrate the popularity of main thief weaponsets as estimated via my own encounters during the last few months:

Dagger/Pistol 50%
Dagger/Dagger 30%
Sword/Dagger 15%
Shortbow 2%
Pistol/Dagger 2%
Pistol/Pistol 1%
Sword/Pistol 1%

Again, these are my own rough observations and only in those two game modes. Other players on other servers may see things differently or have friends/guildmates who main what I view as unpopular builds. I myself main S/D and have tried not to let my familiarity with this weaponset influence my judgement, however the above numbers are the general trend from my point of view.

What I’d like to do now is match each buff/nerf from the recent patch with a specific weaponset to see if some weaponsets may see more playtime in the future beyond curious tinkering. I will pass over traits that I feel users of that weaponset will probably ignore.

Dagger/Pistol 50%
Buffs:
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (Increased frequency of Mug, steal as engage/mobility and certain stolen items)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-picking targets)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Signets of Power: The 5 stacks of might that this trait grants have been increased to 10 seconds. (An improvement if traited)
- Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (An improvement if traited)
Nerfs:
- Lotus Poison: Increased the weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target. (Minor trait, not integral to D/P)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (the ability 99% of thieves love to hate!)
Overall: Moderate Buff. Thieves everywhere now have even more reasons to play the most hated build of the more hated class in all of WvW!

Dagger/Dagger 30%
Buffs:
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (Increased frequency of Mug, steal as engage/mobility and certain stolen items)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-pick)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Signets of Power: The 5 stacks of might that this trait grants have been increased to 10 seconds. (An improvement if traited)
- Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (An improvement if traited)
- Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3. (Good, this skill will see occasional use now)
Nerfs:
- Lotus Poison: Increased the weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target. (Minor trait, not integral to D/D)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (the ability 99% of thieves love to hate..)
Overall: A slightly larger buff than D/P due to Dancing Dagger. Maybe we’ll see more D/D thieves if the Last Refuge ‘buff’ doesn’t put them off. It should also be noted that, while I didn’t include D/D condi changes, some may be tempted to experiment with these waters.

Sword/Dagger 15%
Buffs:
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (A bigger buff than for D/x because ini-hungry S/x is more likely to trait into Trickery)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-pick)
- Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%. (Synergises well with daze build and new steal CD. Will likely see play.)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3. (Good, this skill will see occasional use now)
- Weakness: Changed from 50% fumble on regular attacks to 50% fumble on all attacks. Now only stacks up to 5 times (still stacks duration). (Strong buff for S/x)
Nerfs:
- Larcenous Strike: Increased the initiative cost to 2. (A big blow to evade builds, but not too bad for stealth builds)
- Shadow Return (Infiltrator Strike Toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker. (Again, a bigger problem for ini-heavy evade builds. Not too bad for stealth builds.)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (the ability 99% of thieves love to hate!)
Overall: With the weakness change and new possibilities with steal builds, S/D has the best buffs out of all weaponsets imo, however this is counterbalanced by two very hefty nerfs, especially to the evade variant. Overall, S/D popularity probably will remain static or perhaps increase slightly, though within the S/D weaponset, new builds are certainly viable.

Shortbow 2%
Buffs:
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (Unlikely to be traited on SB, however could be useful for short-range clusterbombs – clutching at straws here!)
- Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. (Useful buff, since SB has few ways to cleanse condis.)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (Useful buff for a non-stealth SB build, though no-one will likely trait 5 points into Shadow Arts for it alone.)

Nerfs:
- Cluster Bomb: Decreased the range set from 1200 to 900. (Significant nerf for many reasons. This one really hurt SB.)
- Lotus Poison: Increased the weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target. (Can still stack weakness with cluster bombs, but with overlapping blast fields and nerfed range it’s another big nerf in my book)
Overall: The buffs are very small and the two nerfs are big ones. I strongly believe we will see those few weakness generating, cluster bombing SB users dwindle away even further. With Shadow Trap, increased Steal range and new steal cooldowns for mobility now, SB will likely dwindle as a secondary weapon also. A big fail here for thief diversity. I’ve gone SB/SB before and I know how fun it can be.

Pistol/Dagger 2%
Buffs:
- Scorpion Wire: Decreased the aftercast by .2 seconds. Reduced the cooldown to 20 seconds. (Good for the lack of P/D chase and for pulling enemies into caltrops)
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (Good, allows P/D to close more often for a stealth.)
- Skale Venom: Replaced weakness with torment. (Creates some cover condis. Nothing to shout about. I wouldn’t take this on my P/D thief.)
- Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3. (Improved P/D lack of chase and kinder on ini-problems in certain builds)
- Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. (A small buff for some P/D builds.)
- Shadow Protector: This trait has been changed to apply 10 seconds of regeneration when the players stealth them. This effect will not occur if the ally already has regeneration on them. (An interesting option for some P/D builds)
- Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%. (An interesting option for a Mug/sustain build. Traiting adds condi damage. More ranged stealths with cloak and dagger.)
- Ricochet: The chance to bounce for this trait has been increased from 25% to 50%. (A small buff for a trait no one will take. I know I wouldn’t.)

Nerfs:
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (A big nerf to P/D. Thief rage 33% more often!)
Overall: A series of small buffs with an increased number of options to play around with. More players may be interested to main P/D. Torment probably won’t see much play at all beyond a hardcore venomshare build.

Pistol/Pistol <1%
Buffs:
- Body Shot: Reduced the aftercast by .4 seconds. Decreased the vulnerability duration to 3 seconds. Increased to 10 stacks for vulnerability. (A fairly useless buff for a useless waste of ini.)
- Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. (May be useful for more condi cleanse.)
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (More steals = more ini gained)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds.
- Sundering Strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. (A small buff, though I still wouldn’t trait it)
- Ricochet: The chance to bounce for this trait has been increased from 25% to 50%. (Better for P/P than P/D, but there are still much better options to take.)

Nerfs:
None!
Overall: An array for very minor buffs. P/P is still broken and everyone knows it. It won’t see more play as a main weaponset, but due to the SB nerfs, it may see increased play as a secondary weaponset for burst thieves.

Sword/Pistol <1%
- Pistol Whip: Decreased the time between the stun and the sword flurry. (A step in the right direction, but not a huge game changer. It may entice some to dust off this weaponset, but not many will linger.)
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (A bigger buff than for D/x and even S/D, due to the usefulness of steal halfway through a Pistol Whip and the dire need for ini return)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-pick)
- Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%. (Going this far into Trickery is almost a must for S/P due to the +15% full ini damage. This trait will almost certainly see play here, even though it will be the only daze available.)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Weakness: Changed from 50% fumble on regular attacks to 50% fumble on all attacks. Now only stacks up to 5 times (still stacks duration). (Strong buff for S/P)

Nerfs:
- Shadow Return (Infiltrator Strike Toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker. (A small nerf for S/P imo.)
Overall: The changes to steal will almost certainly convert a few thieves to S/P and that’s a good thing. This weaponset won’t see a return to greatness though due to Pistolwhip damage and the Quickness change.

Overall thoughts:
It justifies what others have already stated: D/P and D/D still rule supreme and while this is so, the lesser used weaponsets will continue to lie dormant. Unfortunately for pure Shortbow builds, the nerfs to this rarely mained weaponset have unarguably made them even weaker and therefore they will become even rarer. Thankfully, small improvements to P/D and S/P builds will hopefully keep things interesting and diversify the thief population somewhat.

However, for the niche thieves out there, condi Dagger/Dagger is definitely worth another shot. Also, with the improved weakness on Sword and numerous improved regen traits, I’m also looking at the possibility one or two tanky Sword/x sustain builds.

Overall, although there are still several traits that I guarantee will never see any play, thief traits as a whole have generally improved and have even opened up some new build options. But if anet is really interested in build diversity, the next balance patch needs to balance weaponsets. Thanks, anet, for the effort. Keep it up!

stop nerfing shortbow every patch. it needs some buffs.

Thanks a lot for your detailed view!! I’m glad to see this kind of posts here instead the usual “OMG Stop nerfing us” or the “You Thiefs are OP”.

Very good and detailed analysis. You really put effort to this.

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf, but shortbow stealth skill, surprise shot is too weak at the moment:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Surprise_Shot

2 second immobilize is not that bad (especially if you use condition duration gear + trait + consumables to make it longer), but the damage multiplier is too weak. For comparison backstab does clearly better damage even when it hits from the front (and 3x damage compared to surprise shot if it hits from sides or back).

How could we change surprise shot?
Maybe to give it 5 stacks of vulnerability OR 1.0 damage multiplier (+66% damage buff compared to current). Having both would make it too good. SB already has cripple + bleed + poison + area weakness (from SB#4 + SB#2 combo). I feel that vulnerability would suit an attack with the word surprise in front of it. The more different conditions on the target, the more difficult for the target to remove them.

very close but p/d is a lil higher. its a VERY good build.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I agree that SB could use some changes. Suprise shot has always been great in shortbows role as a support/secondary weaponset but vulnerability would help set up burst. My feeling is shortbow needs some better condi damage. Cover condis are all well and good, but without geomancy swap sigils, it doesnt out anything out worth cleansing.

Travlane.5948:

very close but p/d is a lil higher. its a VERY good build.

You know, I’d love to get more observations on weaponsets, ie from tpvp or other servers. I like P/D too but I jusy dont see many about. It’s tempting to give it another go after this update. But Last Refuge! OMG…

Very good and detailed. I would also like to add the blind bug fix (auto attack without hitting anything no longer clears blind) that was a HUGE buff to D/P and the blind on stealth trait that many D/D thieves use. It is also a slight buff to the S/P but not enough to bring it back to prevalence imo.

OP did a good job… I could pick at a few things, but it’s already a huge multi-page analysis.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf

I can see it as blind OCD compulsion. Numbers don’t match. Logically, a bow shouldn’t fire a heavy shot farther. Thief SB numbers don’t match Ranger SB numbers. Ranger SB shoots farther than Warrior LB (untraited.) Must…fix….numbers!!111!!!1

In terms of improving gameplay, balance, or diversity, it is completely indefensible.

The last refuge change isn’t a nerf for d/p because they don’t use cloak and dagger. It’s actually a buff for any set not using dagger in the offhand, especially for d/p, which supports the point you’re trying to make about d/p even more.

d/p users don’t care much about last refuge…
x/d users do mind….
maybe i should join the d/p bandwagon too, just for some lolz

Personally, I find Last Refuge irritating even with D/P stealth builds. Invariably I’m queuing up a BP+HS stealth combo….and LR pops the instant before BP goes off, giving me revealed debuff. Normally you want BP to hit the target because it slaps a blind on them making it harder to inadvertantly hit you in stealth or land a CC right before the leap.

That’s a good point, but I guess I just haven’t really had that issue much while playing d/p. When I played p/d however, last refuge was a problem daily and was directly responsible for easily a third of my deaths while solo roaming wvw or in hot join. I’ve yet noticed last refuge be the cause of my death with d/p.

Daeqar.8965:

I can see it as blind OCD compulsion. Numbers don’t match. Logically, a bow shouldn’t fire a heavy shot farther. Thief SB numbers don’t match Ranger SB numbers. Ranger SB shoots farther than Warrior LB (untraited.) Must…fix….numbers!!111!!!1

Actually after this patch the range of ranger’s short bow is 900. Thus exactly the same as thief’s short bow.

The range of warrior’s longbow is 1000 and 1200 if traited. Ranger’s longbow is 1200 and 1500 if traited. But if you look at the actual skills one could argue that warrior’s longbow is actually better as the warrior’s long bow offers so much better AoE + fire field for combos.

Range isn’t everything. Despite ranger with the eagle eye trait and long bow has a range advantage over anybody else, I would still call ranger’s long bow overpowered.

I know grenadier grandmaster trait gives engineer’s grenades (except grenade barrage) 1500 range as well, but it takes several seconds for the grenades to travel that distance. Anybody can side step or just walk away from them. Thus ranger’s long bow and harpoon gun (underwater) are the only fast hitting weapons at 1500 range (warrior’s rifle burst skill kill shot also has 1500 range, but it has so slow animation). This and few other things (pet + lick wounds) make ranger the best underwater profession.

One idea: give surprise shot 1200 range, but scrap that damage buff and vulnerability idea then. I can see utility use for 1200 ranged immobilize as it offers yet another way to get away of situation turned ugly. If surprise shot would put stacks of vulnerability instead of immobilize it could be used to soften the target before getting in 900 range. If it would cause both conditions at 1200 I would see it really powerful (maybe too powerful?). Many players would probably immediately waste their condition removal being rooted and seeing stacks of vulnerability on them. Time for thief to change weapon set e.g. D/D, optionally use basilisk/devourer venom, then steal with hidden thief (or use pre-casted cloak & dagger) and backstab. The target is rooted again from basilisk/devourer venom. Then on other hand this would once again promote the type of play most people really hate.

DanH.5879:

d/p users don’t care much about last refuge…
x/d users do mind….
maybe i should join the d/p bandwagon too, just for some lolz

Agreed that it’s certainly not as much of an issue, however in my experience any stealth build is vulnerable to Last Refuge. P/D however has provided my most unpleasant and frequent experiences with this unavoidable minor trait.

Craig.2403:

Very good and detailed. I would also like to add the blind bug fix (auto attack without hitting anything no longer clears blind) that was a HUGE buff to D/P and the blind on stealth trait that many D/D thieves use. It is also a slight buff to the S/P but not enough to bring it back to prevalence imo.

Wow. This is huge. I don’t know how I missed this change. This will boost D/P the most due to blind on stealth, black powder and shadowshot. D/D and S/D stealth builds are still affected, but this will certainly make the most common builds even more frequent. You know, I’ve been playing S/D for consecutive months now and I didn’t realise until yesterday that the sword stealth attack dazed and blinded on hit, making a S/D stealth blind/daze build particularly strong also.

Sarrow.2785:

You know, I’ve been playing S/D for consecutive months now and I didn’t realise until yesterday that the sword stealth attack dazed and blinded on hit, making a S/D stealth blind/daze build particularly strong also.

It does one or the other depending on if you hit from the front (blinds) or the side/back (dazes). If you take the blind on stealth trait though, combined with either a superior sigil of paralysation or mesmer runes to enhance the daze duration, you can pretty much keep up a chain of blind from CnD, daze from tactical strike, auto attack until revealed is finished (while the stun is still in effect on the enemy), CnD again, Tac strike. They won’t have much of a window to counterattack, unless they’re quick on using a stun break.

Right now I am experimenting with a S/P Build, atm with 0/30/0/10/30 in sPvP
but I am not sure if I really will be able to do well with it, but at least interrupting
the enemie is fun. But on the other hand conditions really eat me away right now
and with the new necro meta this isn’t a good weakness to have.

So right now it looks bad for build diversity…

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I already commented this in another thread.

Ranger’s short bow is also now 900 range. Same weapon, same range. Sounds logical. I know rangers have long bow as well, but thief has better mobility. And I would still argue that thief’s shortbow is better than ranger’s longbow in most circumstances (I got both level 80 ranger and thief).

Two conditions got buffed in the last patch: namely weakness and blind.

Weakness is now unconditional 50% fumble (glancing blows). Previously critical hits never fumbled with weakness. Thus weakness wasn’t that effective against high crit chance builds. Now weakness is basically an overall 25% damage reduction, -50% endurance regeneration. Thieves can apply area weakness using short bow #4 and short bow #2 combo.

Short bow #5 blinds nearby enemies. Previously blind was cleansed away even when the attacker had no target in range, now the blinded attacker needs a target. This gives thief a very efficient way to circumvent damage from melee attackers. When they are nearby just use SB #5 to shadowstep away from their melee range. They will be swinging air and remain blinded until they can target you.

I am not arguing that short bow got nerfed in that sense that you can no longer use it as an easy way to destroy enemy siege far away from the walls. Cluster bomb still works against enemies and siege which are close to tower walls. And you can still defend the tower by standing near the wall and rain down cluster bombs on the attackers who are on the ground near the tower.

Overall people are exaggerating this thing, considering short bow did indeed get 2 buffs and thief blind builds just got even stronger. If you don’t believe me, just have a look at how much warrior players are QQing about blind now. And thieves have more blind skills than any other profession.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I already commented this in another thread.

Ranger’s short bow is also now 900 range. Same weapon, same range. Sounds logical. I know rangers have long bow as well, but thief has better mobility. And I would still argue that thief’s shortbow is better than ranger’s longbow in most circumstances (I got both level 80 ranger and thief).

This is a terrible argument. You are comparing them because they are the same weapon? Really? Grenade has 1500 range and more conditions, why wasn’t that brought down to 900? You know to compensate for nerfing ranger SB. The same could go for necro staff, but at 1200 range.

Cluster Bomb is good damage, but it does not give as much as the above weapon sets that I just stated. What you are arguing makes no sense. If they are going to balance weapons, balance them within the class, not like this.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I already commented this in another thread.

Ranger’s short bow is also now 900 range. Same weapon, same range. Sounds logical. I know rangers have long bow as well, but thief has better mobility. And I would still argue that thief’s shortbow is better than ranger’s longbow in most circumstances (I got both level 80 ranger and thief).

This is a terrible argument. You are comparing them because they are the same weapon? Really? Grenade has 1500 range and more conditions, why wasn’t that brought down to 900? You know to compensate for nerfing ranger SB. The same could go for necro staff, but at 1200 range.

Cluster Bomb is good damage, but it does not give as much as the above weapon sets that I just stated. What you are arguing makes no sense. If they are going to balance weapons, balance them within the class, not like this.

No, it is actually a 100% legit argument. Shortbow skills for the thief have been normalized to have a maximum range of 900. They have been ‘balanced within the class’ so to speak.

Yuujin.1067:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I already commented this in another thread.

Ranger’s short bow is also now 900 range. Same weapon, same range. Sounds logical. I know rangers have long bow as well, but thief has better mobility. And I would still argue that thief’s shortbow is better than ranger’s longbow in most circumstances (I got both level 80 ranger and thief).

This is a terrible argument. You are comparing them because they are the same weapon? Really? Grenade has 1500 range and more conditions, why wasn’t that brought down to 900? You know to compensate for nerfing ranger SB. The same could go for necro staff, but at 1200 range.

Cluster Bomb is good damage, but it does not give as much as the above weapon sets that I just stated. What you are arguing makes no sense. If they are going to balance weapons, balance them within the class, not like this.

No, it is actually a 100% legit argument. Shortbow skills for the thief have been normalized to have a maximum range of 900. They have been ‘balanced within the class’ so to speak.

Then tell me, why is the range of Axe skills from the Ranger 900 long, whille it’s 600
for the Necro, and 130 (aside from one skill) for the Warrior?

No, your argument is not reeeeeaaaaaaly legit, since Rangers have nothing to do
with thieves.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Two conditions got buffed in the last patch: namely weakness and blind.

Thanks for elaborating, though I disagree.

I would argue that those two effects on the shortbow getting buffed, don’t result in an overall improvement to the weapon. For starters, the blind on #5 simply isn’t actively used – not defensively or offensively. You don’t want to waste 6 ini getting into melee range with a ranged weapon, and when escaping, you want to shadowstep away from your enemy, gaining ground, not across him, losing ground. Further to this, often the blind only seems to trigger on the end point of your #5, at least in my experience.

As for weakness, the nerf to Lotus Poison leaves clusterbomb is the only means to consistently generate it. This by itself is a nerf as you now need to waste more ini to stack weakness whereas previously a choking gas+AA did a great job of this with the bouncing arrows. Combine this with the range nerf on cluster and the fact that blast fields cannot overlap in group combat and this is even harder to do reliably. Previously, simply laying choking gas would generate good amounts of weakness, despite any other fields in the way. When the field timed out you simply dropped another one. Now with the lotus poison nerf, all enemies will get a 20 second immunity to your weakness.

Finally, your comment about the clusterbomb range nerf: putting weaponset range comparisons aside, as we can only guess about this, frankly I don’t care what kind of obsessive-compulsive person nerfs a weapon set so all the abilities have exactly the same range. At the end of the day, Anet made a rarely mained weaponset even less viable. This was after the nerf to z-axis shadowsteps, which severely reduced the viability of the secondary mobility shortbow also. If a weaponset is balanced in how it performs practically in game, you don’t fiddle around with the aesthetics of its range.

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I agree that SB could use some changes. Suprise shot has always been great in shortbows role as a support/secondary weaponset but vulnerability would help set up burst. My feeling is shortbow needs some better condi damage. Cover condis are all well and good, but without geomancy swap sigils, it doesnt out anything out worth cleansing.

Travlane.5948:

very close but p/d is a lil higher. its a VERY good build.

You know, I’d love to get more observations on weaponsets, ie from tpvp or other servers. I like P/D too but I jusy dont see many about. It’s tempting to give it another go after this update. But Last Refuge! OMG…

when i go into a duel with p/d (against non thieves / troll builds) i always end up betting most of the time i will win with 90% hp or more….elite or no elite used. i win 90% of these bets. guy today ended up switchinhg from guardian to necro to engineer to find a way to beat me. just had no chance. p/d is very underrated but only bc it draws against d/p bc of its supreme condi removal. any other class that is running a supreme condi removal has 0 chance of beating 90% of the builds out there so dont have to worry about that as you can literally just run away without using 1 skill bc they wont have enough dmg to touch you (i run near 23k hp) if somebody is using a build to win and not just troll p/d is amazing. if u trait / run it well weapons armor accs etc.

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Two conditions got buffed in the last patch: namely weakness and blind.

Thanks for elaborating, though I disagree.

I would argue that those two effects on the shortbow getting buffed, don’t result in an overall improvement to the weapon. For starters, the blind on #5 simply isn’t actively used – not defensively or offensively. You don’t want to waste 6 ini getting into melee range with a ranged weapon, and when escaping, you want to shadowstep away from your enemy, gaining ground, not across him, losing ground. Further to this, often the blind only seems to trigger on the end point of your #5, at least in my experience.

As for weakness, the nerf to Lotus Poison leaves clusterbomb is the only means to consistently generate it. This by itself is a nerf as you now need to waste more ini to stack weakness whereas previously a choking gas+AA did a great job of this with the bouncing arrows. Combine this with the range nerf on cluster and the fact that blast fields cannot overlap in group combat and this is even harder to do reliably. Previously, simply laying choking gas would generate good amounts of weakness, despite any other fields in the way. When the field timed out you simply dropped another one. Now with the lotus poison nerf, all enemies will get a 20 second immunity to your weakness.

Finally, your comment about the clusterbomb range nerf: putting weaponset range comparisons aside, as we can only guess about this, frankly I don’t care what kind of obsessive-compulsive person nerfs a weapon set so all the abilities have exactly the same range. At the end of the day, Anet made a rarely mained weaponset even less viable. This was after the nerf to z-axis shadowsteps, which severely reduced the viability of the secondary mobility shortbow also. If a weaponset is balanced in how it performs practically in game, you don’t fiddle around with the aesthetics of its range.

i agree. the only real buff we got (excluding traits) was to steal. the rest of the buffs to skills utilities or weapons are just irrelevant/hurtful/nonsense…..we only got one helpful buff and thats to steal. (some cool trait stuff but nothing gr8)(

Deniara Devious.3948:

Sarrow.2785:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I already commented this in another thread.

Ranger’s short bow is also now 900 range. Same weapon, same range. Sounds logical. I know rangers have long bow as well, but thief has better mobility. And I would still argue that thief’s shortbow is better than ranger’s longbow in most circumstances (I got both level 80 ranger and thief).

Okay so the argument for the cluster bomb range nerf is that rangers shortbow got set to 900 as well, and all weapons of the same type have to have the same range? Lets examine that argument for a moment shall we… We will use another weapon thief and ranger have in common, along with other classes that use the same.

Dagger

Thief Ranger Elementalist
skill 1 130 na 400-600-300-300
skill 2 450 na 400-400-300-240
skill 3 130 na 600-240-n/a-900
skill 4 900 250 240-n/a-1200-240
skill 5 130 1200 300-240-180-360

There is alot of discrepancy there, a ranger can throw a dagger farther than a thief can? not to mention farther than either can shoot a shortbow? WOW! I guess the same weapon doesnt have to have the same range on all skills and all classes. If you want another example, look at axe, or rifle for engi/war