Guild Wars 2

Wouldn’t this skill make more sense if you could control the direction of the dodge? It’s an instant cast ability too. Any direction + Withdraw would compliment acrobatics builds quite well especially with Vigorous Recovery.

The fact that it forces you to roll backwards feels awkard. If I wanted to go forward I would have to turn around 180 degrees and activate; which doesn’t make any sense.

Calae.1738:

The fact that it forces you to roll backwards feels awkard. If I wanted to go forward I would have to turn around 180 degrees and activate; which doesn’t make any sense.

This is much easier to do than you think.

Iohanna.4863:

Calae.1738:

The fact that it forces you to roll backwards feels awkard. If I wanted to go forward I would have to turn around 180 degrees and activate; which doesn’t make any sense.

This is much easier to do than you think.

Wether its easy or not doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense.

System 1
Turn mouse and face character in opposite direction of where you want to dodge then activate heal.

System 2
Press button for desired direction then activate heal.

I could emulate system 2 by using system 1. However, system 2 is far more efficient and less confusing. System 1 is like driving a car that turns left when steering right and turns right when steering left.

It’s doesn’t make sense.

I think it’s less about wanting to remove control from the player and more about the feel of the spell.

Withdraw is acting literally with regards to its definition: to back away.

The spell makes sense as it is. Whether or not the spell should be remade into a “Tumble” that utilizes directional keys is a different matter.

Well, if the reason the spell evades backwards is because it’s called Withdraw; one can wonder why they haven’t renamed it to Evade and provided more control to the player.

Very little thought process went into the design of this ability. Most other skills in this game share the same fate. It feels like they ran out of time and had to think of something quickly.

You’re overcomplicating the skill. The times where you need to go any other direction then forward or backwards, is next to zero. The point is simply to get out of a bad situation, from foes you are either facing, or who are chasing you. Turning 180 is as simple as pressing a button, if you just bind the key named “About Face”.

Kasama.8941:

You’re overcomplicating the skill. The times where you need to go any other direction then forward or backwards, is next to zero. The point is simply to get out of a bad situation, from foes you are either facing, or who are chasing you. Turning 180 is as simple as pressing a button, if you just bind the key named “About Face”.

Dude.

My point is you don’t have to “turn left to go right”. You could build it so that you can “turn right to go right”.

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right?

you can just mouse turn to make withdraw go whatever way ;/

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right? to have funny driving.

Calae.1738:

Dude.

My point is you don’t have to “turn left to go right”. You could build it so that you can “turn right to go right”.

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right?

The skill is designed to roll you back. If you changed the skill into a target based roll, it would be much more difficult to roll back, as you would have to both turn and target first. Having a reliable roll back is also much better for situations where you are immobilized or otherwise unable to turn. And again, the times when you want to go left or right with the skill is next to zero, and turning your camera is already easy. So I really don’t see any reason to change it.

Kasama.8941:

Calae.1738:

Dude.

My point is you don’t have to “turn left to go right”. You could build it so that you can “turn right to go right”.

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right?

The skill is designed to roll you back. If you changed the skill into a target based roll, it would be much more difficult to roll back, as you would have to both turn and target first. Having a reliable roll back is also much better for situations where you are immobilized or otherwise unable to turn. And again, the times when you want to go left or right with the skill is next to zero, and turning your camera is already easy. So I really don’t see any reason to change it.

They could have designed it to make you roll in whatever direction you’re moving, like a regular dodge roll. Then, if you don’t want to leave you don’t have to, but if you want to get out of there you can use it backwards like you would a dodge roll and get the current effect.

You can just keybind “About Face” and hit that then Withdraw if you want to go 180.

There is nothing wrong with this skill.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Kasama.8941:

Calae.1738:

Dude.

My point is you don’t have to “turn left to go right”. You could build it so that you can “turn right to go right”.

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right?

The skill is designed to roll you back. If you changed the skill into a target based roll, it would be much more difficult to roll back, as you would have to both turn and target first. Having a reliable roll back is also much better for situations where you are immobilized or otherwise unable to turn. And again, the times when you want to go left or right with the skill is next to zero, and turning your camera is already easy. So I really don’t see any reason to change it.

They could have designed it to make you roll in whatever direction you’re moving, like a regular dodge roll. Then, if you don’t want to leave you don’t have to, but if you want to get out of there you can use it backwards like you would a dodge roll and get the current effect.

Yes thank you.

So there actually ARE smart people in this forum.

Calae.1738:

Yes thank you.

So there actually ARE smart people in this forum.

In reality, everyone thinks like you, since there’s absolutely no logical reason for the skill not to behave like a regular Dodge… However, there will be always people with that mentality of:

“If I was was forced to do it this way, you should too” … or … “I troubled myself with this so you should have troubles too”.

Here’s a thought: Anet designed it this way because they didn’t WANT you to dodge in WHATEVER way you want. Wow, crazy eh?
The design is that Withdraw is a roll backward, deal with it. If that doesn’t suit you, consider it … flavor. They wanted to immerse players more with skills like this. Again, it’s designed this way.

If you’re not happy with it, may I suggest you offer your invaluable services and expertise as a game designer to Anet

Rhogall.4179:

Here’s a thought: Anet designed it this way because they didn’t WANT you to dodge in WHATEVER way you want. Wow, crazy eh?
The design is that Withdraw is a roll backward, deal with it. If that doesn’t suit you, consider it … flavor. They wanted to immerse players more with skills like this. Again, it’s designed this way.

If you’re not happy with it, may I suggest you offer your invaluable services and expertise as a game designer to Anet

Well, in that case, people is clearly exploting the skill by using camera turns to Dodge in whatever direction they see fit.

If what you say is truly the designer’s intention, then the skill is bugged and should be fixed to always move you away from your opponents, no matter your relative position, facing or camera angle.

Kyrion.2749:

Rhogall.4179:

Here’s a thought: Anet designed it this way because they didn’t WANT you to dodge in WHATEVER way you want. Wow, crazy eh?
The design is that Withdraw is a roll backward, deal with it. If that doesn’t suit you, consider it … flavor. They wanted to immerse players more with skills like this. Again, it’s designed this way.

If you’re not happy with it, may I suggest you offer your invaluable services and expertise as a game designer to Anet

Well, in that case, people is clearly exploting the skill by using camera turns to Dodge in whatever direction they see fit.

If what you say is truly the designer’s intention, then the skill is bugged and should be fixed to always move you away from your opponents, no matter your relative position, facing or camera angle.

I wouldn’t call it a bug per se.

The skill makes you roll backwards. Now, if your back is facing the opponent, that’s where you’re rolling “backwards” to. Notice the tooltip says “roll backward” and not “roll backward away from the opponent”

Bug or clever use of game mechanics? Well, I’ll leave that with the Anet devs.

Geez, this skill is already powerful enough.

A simple turn of camera will do. I personally think it should keep it’s “withdraw” style.

At this point is just semantics, but it is certainly difficult to understand that you are ‘Withdrawing’ from your opponent by rolling towards them

In any case I agree with you, It’s is a designer decision after all (no matter how cuestionable it may be) and we probably will never see changes to this skill.

Good points I’ve meaning to try this skill again, I use ShadowStep all the time.

Rhogall.4179:

Here’s a thought: Anet designed it this way because they didn’t WANT you to dodge in WHATEVER way you want. Wow, crazy eh?
The design is that Withdraw is a roll backward, deal with it. If that doesn’t suit you, consider it … flavor. They wanted to immerse players more with skills like this. Again, it’s designed this way.

If you’re not happy with it, may I suggest you offer your invaluable services and expertise as a game designer to Anet

If they didn’t WANT me to dodge in any direction I want then why am I allowed to do it? I bet you anyone who uses Withdraw uses it as an extra dodge.

I removed 10 points in Shadow Arts and replaced it with 10 points in Acrobatics to get some endurance refund on a dodge and Vigorous Recovery. Since Withdraw has such a low cooldown I can dodge almost indefinatley. This new build allows me to avoid so much damage that it makes Shadow Rejuvenation (regen while in stealth) look pretty terrible in comparison.

It’s easy to screw up Withdrawl if you don’t turn your camera all the way into the right direction and there’s been many a time where I’ve withdrawled right into the zerg I was trying to run away from. LoL

I always wished Withdraw and Roll for Initiative would allow you to roll in any direction like normal dodges do.

Yeah, it would make the heal more useful and make it more skillful as well, its not like the ability is for stealth users.

I’d be ok with being able to aim the Withdraw as long as I’m not forced into ground targeting with it. The main appeal for me is it’s instant cast time, which has saved my rear-end more times than I can count.

Eduardo.4675:

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right? to have funny driving.

Motorcycles turn their handlebars left to go right.

Darxio.5672:

Eduardo.4675:

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right? to have funny driving.

Motorcycles turn their handlebars left to go right.

Wat

At any rate, you all seem to be forgetting that this skill Is Not a normal dodge roll. It goes much much farther than a normal dodge roll, it cures multie conditions, and has a healing component. It is a very different skill, and functions differently as a result. Your arguments make less than no sense. Anet obviously didn’t want this skill to be a normal dodge roll, and so it isn’t. It makes no sense to go complaining that you can’t use this non-dodge roll skill as a normal dodge roll, it’s simply ridiculous.

Darxio.5672:

Eduardo.4675:

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right? to have funny driving.

Motorcycles turn their handlebars left to go right.

I once took my nephew (?) to a science show, and amongst other funny stuff, there was this bycicle that used those handlebars, only they were working “normal”. It was hilarious watching the 6 year old trying to veer right and going left all the time, with the following tumbles. However, even this six year old kid got the hang of it. The OP is less capable than this kid. Pathetic. And, guys, its a skill. Not a dodge. If it worked like a dodge, it would be less visible to opponents he was infact healing, not dodging. When i see someone using withdraw, i notice coz of this and the long distance traveled. I dont use head shot to interrupt it on these ppl, coz this heal is uninterruptible, for example. Maybe we need a moderator/dev coming here to clarify?

Calae.1738:

Wouldn’t this skill make more sense if you could control the direction of the dodge? It’s an instant cast ability too. Any direction + Withdraw would compliment acrobatics builds quite well especially with Vigorous Recovery.

The fact that it forces you to roll backwards feels awkard. If I wanted to go forward I would have to turn around 180 degrees and activate; which doesn’t make any sense.

You can actually bind a key to “Turn character around” that spins you 180 degrees within a second.

withdraw and roll for init go with facing of your avatar, not the facing of your view.
Coming out of stun spamming withdraw can end badly, specially since it does not break stun…

Maybe make withdraw a break stun? Perhaps that would increase its popularity and take away from hide in shadow. Less complains on stealth is what we want right?

Brassnautilus.2941:

withdraw and roll for init go with facing of your avatar, not the facing of your view.
Coming out of stun spamming withdraw can end badly, specially since it does not break stun…

Maybe make withdraw a break stun? Perhaps that would increase its popularity and take away from hide in shadow. Less complains on stealth is what we want right?

Popular or not (I run it over HIS anyday), none of our heals break stuns, and they shouldnt, we have stun breakers available in our utility spells. Each heal serves a purpose, and imho work nicely when you compare them.

I like WD like it is, and can easily control the direction I want it to send me

Eduardo.4675:

Darxio.5672:

Eduardo.4675:

Why build a car that turns left when you steer right? to have funny driving.

Motorcycles turn their handlebars left to go right.

I once took my nephew (?) to a science show, and amongst other funny stuff, there was this bycicle that used those handlebars, only they were working “normal”. It was hilarious watching the 6 year old trying to veer right and going left all the time, with the following tumbles. However, even this six year old kid got the hang of it. The OP is less capable than this kid. Pathetic. And, guys, its a skill. Not a dodge. If it worked like a dodge, it would be less visible to opponents he was infact healing, not dodging. When i see someone using withdraw, i notice coz of this and the long distance traveled. I dont use head shot to interrupt it on these ppl, coz this heal is uninterruptible, for example. Maybe we need a moderator/dev coming here to clarify?

Are you dense? I am using the skill as a dodge already, along with everyone else. Do I really need to draw a picture to illustrate my point?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

They could have designed it to make you roll in whatever direction you’re moving, like a regular dodge roll. Then, if you don’t want to leave you don’t have to, but if you want to get out of there you can use it backwards like you would a dodge roll and get the current effect.

You could also just make all target based skills work like this, so you never would have to aim with your mouse! But why remove all challenge from the skill? The fun part is learning how to use Withdraw to your advantage. This is where “skill” comes in. It’s the little things that makes a good player great.

Kasama.8941:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

They could have designed it to make you roll in whatever direction you’re moving, like a regular dodge roll. Then, if you don’t want to leave you don’t have to, but if you want to get out of there you can use it backwards like you would a dodge roll and get the current effect.

You could also just make all target based skills work like this, so you never would have to aim with your mouse! But why remove all challenge from the skill? The fun part is learning how to use Withdraw to your advantage. This is where “skill” comes in. It’s the little things that makes a good player great.

If you’re old enough, you might remember Quake.

Quake use to have a movement manuver called strafe jumping. It was a bug in the game code that players learned how to exploit in order to move faster. It later became a skill that separated the men from the boys. The designers desided to remove it in the early developement on Quake 3 Arena and there was an outcry from the fans so large you could hear it from the other side of the world.

The designers argued that this movement manuver was not intended. It broke immersion and was unintended design. The fans argument was that the skill when mastered, created a skill gap between players and enhanced competitve play. The designers decided to keep it in the game.

I understand your point of view. You mastered a new skill and you think that this skill makes you a better player. Although that may be true, it doesn’t mean that this skill can’t be made better. Skilled play is still required and I would argue that it makes the game even more skillful than before.

Calae.1738:

If you’re old enough, you might remember Quake.

Quake use to have a movement manuver called strafe jumping. It was a bug in the game code that players learned how to exploit in order to move faster. It later became a skill that separated the men from the boys. The designers desided to remove it in the early developement on Quake 3 Arena and there was an outcry from the fans so large you could hear it from the other side of the world.

The designers argued that this movement manuver was not intended. It broke immersion and was unintended design. The fans argument was that the skill when mastered, created a skill gap between players and enhanced competitve play. The designers decided to keep it in the game.

I understand your point of view. You mastered a new skill and you think that this skill makes you a better player. Although that may be true, it doesn’t mean that this skill can’t be made better. Skilled play is still required and I would argue that it makes the game even more skillful than before.

That’s a total moot comparison, as Withdraw is in no way game breaking. You completely missed my point. Learning how to utilize Withdraw is rather easy on it’s own, as several people have said in this topic already, but together with everything ells you have to do as a Thief, it becomes becomes part of a larger whole. It’s the little things that makes the difference. If Withdraw was just a dodge skill with a heal attached, then there wouldn’t be much reason for it to be a skill. Then it might as well just be a trait that says “Heal whenever you dodge. Cures immobilized, chilled, and crippled”. There needs to be some form of difficulty attached some places. That’s also why you have target based skills, next to auto attack skills.

Kasama.8941:

Calae.1738:

If you’re old enough, you might remember Quake.

Quake use to have a movement manuver called strafe jumping. It was a bug in the game code that players learned how to exploit in order to move faster. It later became a skill that separated the men from the boys. The designers desided to remove it in the early developement on Quake 3 Arena and there was an outcry from the fans so large you could hear it from the other side of the world.

The designers argued that this movement manuver was not intended. It broke immersion and was unintended design. The fans argument was that the skill when mastered, created a skill gap between players and enhanced competitve play. The designers decided to keep it in the game.

I understand your point of view. You mastered a new skill and you think that this skill makes you a better player. Although that may be true, it doesn’t mean that this skill can’t be made better. Skilled play is still required and I would argue that it makes the game even more skillful than before.

That’s a total moot comparison, as Withdraw is in no way game breaking. You completely missed my point. Learning how to utilize Withdraw is rather easy on it’s own, as several people have said in this topic already, but together with everything ells you have to do as a Thief, it becomes becomes part of a larger whole. It’s the little things that makes the difference. If Withdraw was just a dodge skill with a heal attached, then there wouldn’t be much reason for it to be a skill. Then it might as well just be a trait that says “Heal whenever you dodge. Cures immobilized, chilled, and crippled”. There needs to be some form of difficulty attached some places. That’s also why you have target based skills, next to auto attack skills.

You think turning your camera in the opposite direction of where you want to dodge takes skill? That’s almost as stupid as asking someone to learn how to drive a car that turns left when steering right. The guy is going to look at you like your from another planet.

It doesnt take skill? what is your problem then? you need to be spoonfed all the way? you want it the easy way, thats all. “hey, anet, let the game play itself for me plz, while i eat these tacos”. And saying “everyone uses withdraw as a dodge” its ridiculous. I use it as a heal and a immo remover. I ocasionally also use it when fighting eles to remove the aura chills. Never use it as a simple dodge. And you kittening look like Alf.

Withdraw: This ability now scales 20% better with healing power. Base healing per level has increased by 10%.

Yay! Expect more people rolling backwards!

Has always been my goto heal, just got better.

the answer is pretty simple: because u can’t turn while immobilized

Because the skill was designed fully as a get away, and not as an offensive skill.

/thread.

I like how everyone who disagrees with you must not be ‘smart’.

Regardless. We, as thieves, have the same base dodges as any other class — any direction, specified distance, etc.

Apart from that, SB 5 slot is a spammable shadowstep to any location in range that costs a flexible resource.
We also have raw shadowstep.
Our melee specs also have psuedo-shadowsteps that teleport us to our targets (Shadow Shot, Infiltrators Strike, and I guess Heartseeker, kind of)

All of these abilities let us travel in any direction we want (or are able to).

There are lots of them.

Apart from that, we have 2 ‘disengage’ style spells — Withdraw, which also restores Health, and ‘Roll for Initiative’ which restores initiative.

The shadowsteps are given to us as straight utilities. You don’t have to tie a heal or resource regen to a shadowstep to make it useful — it’s already incredibly useful.

Similarly, the ‘disengage’ type abilities DO need these tie-ins because they are, essentially, pidgeon-holed into being used as escapes and thus, as evasive, hyper-mobile high damage dealers, are less directly useful to us than an ability that can teleport us anywhere we want within x00 yards.

However, since these ‘diengage’ type abilities ARE capable of being used to move us around a battlefield similar to how a shadowstep might, but are still tied to more beneficial spells that the easier-to-use shadowsteps dont provide, a theoretical ‘skill-threshold’ is set before these abilities are maximized.

You haven’t reached that threshold, and thus find the abilities less useful.

Verisuvalise.3615:

I like how everyone who disagrees with you must not be ‘smart’.

Regardless. We, as thieves, have the same base dodges as any other class — any direction, specified distance, etc.

Apart from that, SB 5 slot is a spammable shadowstep to any location in range that costs a flexible resource.
We also have raw shadowstep.
Our melee specs also have psuedo-shadowsteps that teleport us to our targets (Shadow Shot, Infiltrators Strike, and I guess Heartseeker, kind of)

All of these abilities let us travel in any direction we want (or are able to).

There are lots of them.

Apart from that, we have 2 ‘disengage’ style spells — Withdraw, which also restores Health, and ‘Roll for Initiative’ which restores initiative.

The shadowsteps are given to us as straight utilities. You don’t have to tie a heal or resource regen to a shadowstep to make it useful — it’s already incredibly useful.

Similarly, the ‘disengage’ type abilities DO need these tie-ins because they are, essentially, pidgeon-holed into being used as escapes and thus, as evasive, hyper-mobile high damage dealers, are less directly useful to us than an ability that can teleport us anywhere we want within x00 yards.

However, since these ‘diengage’ type abilities ARE capable of being used to move us around a battlefield similar to how a shadowstep might, but are still tied to more beneficial spells that the easier-to-use shadowsteps dont provide, a theoretical ‘skill-threshold’ is set before these abilities are maximized.

You haven’t reached that threshold, and thus find the abilities less useful.

^ In others words, OP: Learn to Play.

Withdraw looks very attractive now, but Hide in Shadows is still better for the condition removal and stealth.

Except you guys forgot the most important part of my point.

I don’t use Withdraw exclusively as an escape.

I use it as an extra dodge, gap closer and immobilize break.

rolls eyes

Withdraw should have a area targetted shadowstep mechanic…

that would be awesome.. and it would make me consider to use it.

iNaddict.8021:

Withdraw should have a area targetted shadowstep mechanic…

that would be awesome.. and it would make me consider to use it.

Withdraw is fine as it is. It is instant cast which makes it the fastest thief heal. The instant cast combined with the dodge are a life saver more often that you would think. Another benefit is the short cooldown, so I’m not afraid to use it often.

The other heals have their uses but withdraw has its advantages.

with that logic shouldn’t ele staff fire and updraft roll be a targeted dodge as well rather than always backwards? Engineers rocketboots also?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

with that logic shouldn’t ele staff fire and updraft roll be a targeted dodge as well rather than always backwards? Engineers rocketboots also?

diff skill.. and they are welcomed to be different.. i dont mind either way,
but we are discussing withdraw are we not?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

with that logic shouldn’t ele staff fire and updraft roll be a targeted dodge as well rather than always backwards? Engineers rocketboots also?

If I was the designer that’s how I would have designed it. A dodge move that only moves in one direction doesn’t make any sense. The reality is that you can dodge in any direction; the only thing is that you have to face the opposite direction of where you want to go.

There’s a reason why we build things to be less confusing. We want many people to understand how to use it (low skill floor). Our ability to master the skill and use it in spectacular ways is what differentiates us from inexperienced players (high skill ceiling).

Auesis.7301:

You can just keybind “About Face” and hit that then Withdraw if you want to go 180.

There is nothing wrong with this skill.

If you can do stuff like that then that’s all the more reason to allow withdraw to dodge-roll in the direction of your choice.