Guild Wars 2

Humorless.1573:

Why are you having problems being in 900 range of anything considering you generally blow all your initiative ASAP and you can dodge A LOT. We’re easily fast enough to get into that range. We don’t need 1200.

And lol at you if you die to a rifle/longbow warrior. I don’t even know how you can die to one.

Sorry dude, seeing your posts throughout these forums you come off as an elitist jerk. If you’re honestly trying to be constructive and add to conversation, then I would check your tone.

You might not need 1200 range. You might also be the bane of Warriors everywhere. Gratz to you dude, but I, and I suspect many others, aren’t playing our Thieves as you do and don’t want too. I would like 1200 range. Ok? Thanks!

Humorless.1573:

Why are you having problems being in 900 range of anything considering you generally blow all your initiative ASAP and you can dodge A LOT. We’re easily fast enough to get into that range. We don’t need 1200.

And lol at you if you die to a rifle/longbow warrior. I don’t even know how you can die to one.

How can you get into that range if the enemy is 1200 from the wall… do you jump off into aoe of doom just to plink a few shortbow or pistol shots off before trying to dodge/steath back? because that way your are massively less effective than everyone else on your server.

Up for Rifles! And cool skills!

I think rifles has become a really popular theme on this forum recently!

Not sure about the extra range to be fair, we deal a lot of damage from both range and melee. Possibly a major master trait, just a flat out buff in range would be too strong.

Thief really falls behind in some aspects of the game due to the reduced range, I would really love to see if improved, to decide if that will be better from a trait or new weapon is the developer option.
Cluster bomb being the only skill at this moment to do this is bad and certainly not viable because at that range the damage is bad and we can’t even combo properly with the poison AoE because of the projectile speed, plus there are dungeons encounters where players with bigger range just have a much better advantage ( we tried Giganticus Lupicus with 5 Thiefs…).

Dronin.3957:

How can you get into that range if the enemy is 1200 from the wall… do you jump off into aoe of doom just to plink a few shortbow or pistol shots off before trying to dodge/steath back? because that way your are massively less effective than everyone else on your server.

Relocate on the wall… if none of them are in range, jump off, because they’re probably backing off and your side should just wipe them. As a thief you can get away with this extremely easily. I’m always attacking or moving to a spot where I can during WvW sieges, 900 range doesn’t matter. Ofcourse it comes with some limitations, but they’re easily made up for by the fact that you can empty someone’s HP bar in 6 seconds of them being in 900 range.

Thieves in this game are by no means weak or underpowered.

Humorless.1573:

Dronin.3957:

How can you get into that range if the enemy is 1200 from the wall… do you jump off into aoe of doom just to plink a few shortbow or pistol shots off before trying to dodge/steath back? because that way your are massively less effective than everyone else on your server.

Relocate on the wall… if none of them are in range, jump off, because they’re probably backing off and your side should just wipe them. As a thief you can get away with this extremely easily. I’m always attacking or moving to a spot where I can during WvW sieges, 900 range doesn’t matter. Ofcourse it comes with some limitations, but they’re easily made up for by the fact that you can empty someone’s HP bar in 6 seconds of them being in 900 range.

Thieves in this game are by no means weak or underpowered.

I think its interesting you bring up the whole underpowererd overpowered argument. I don’t think this thread is here to discuss that, in fact there are loads of threads arguing one way or the other. In reality the main reason people argue thief is so good is due to pistol whip right now.

Myself and others are happy to take a small ranged damage reduction (even though our only good ranged damage is unload) to compensate for a slight increase in range

Flamu.2319:

Not sure about the extra range to be fair, we deal a lot of damage from both range and melee. Possibly a major master trait, just a flat out buff in range would be too strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBOoyh1yHDc

there are some issues with your video

1 Is I would suggest that theif is level 80, and killing lower level players

2 Right now everyone is trying to build glass cannon on every class so toughness is almost non existant

3 The exceptional damage is coming from his ulti and stealing from a warrior

4 He has a damage buff from orb

I’d rather have it so I can infiltrate the base in some way (infiltrators arrow?) than having to retort to long ranged combat for a class I kinda feel is ill fit for it.

All classes in gw2 are supposed to be able to fill the same roles

allowing the theif to infiltrate bases would mean they have a special role that no one else could do. This goes against ANets philosophy for the game…. I agree it would be a nice idea but it would never happen.

Concequentially as we are supposed to be able to range nuke like everyone else a 1200 would be helpful, would you not agree?

Dronin.3957:

Humorless.1573:

Dronin.3957:

How can you get into that range if the enemy is 1200 from the wall… do you jump off into aoe of doom just to plink a few shortbow or pistol shots off before trying to dodge/steath back? because that way your are massively less effective than everyone else on your server.

Relocate on the wall… if none of them are in range, jump off, because they’re probably backing off and your side should just wipe them. As a thief you can get away with this extremely easily. I’m always attacking or moving to a spot where I can during WvW sieges, 900 range doesn’t matter. Ofcourse it comes with some limitations, but they’re easily made up for by the fact that you can empty someone’s HP bar in 6 seconds of them being in 900 range.

Thieves in this game are by no means weak or underpowered.

I think its interesting you bring up the whole underpowererd overpowered argument. I don’t think this thread is here to discuss that, in fact there are loads of threads arguing one way or the other. In reality the main reason people argue thief is so good is due to pistol whip right now.

Myself and others are happy to take a small ranged damage reduction (even though our only good ranged damage is unload) to compensate for a slight increase in range

Interesting how you focus on one line in my entire post, that wasn’t specifically in response to yours…

And I’d rather keep my damage. I have no problem damaging anything in WvW and PvE. I’d rather win a fight at 900 range than lose it at 1200, lol. And if you think Unload is our only good source of damage then you have no clue how to do damage.

I didn’t mean to upset you, I assure you I read your whole post.

I’m talking about damage at range purely here, not in melee, our close range damage is much, much higher than our ranged. Sorry If i didn’t make it clear as to what I was referring to but i did attempt to make that clear

(even though our only good ranged damage is unload)

If you want me to break your post down

- Relocate on the wall ie move closer
This makes you easier to tab target and moves you into the aoe spam. On the ground level shooting people on the wall… this makes you a very obvious visual target.

- Your always attacking
This is your play style, The idea of guild wars is to allow every class to perform each role. Ie if your a thief and you want to just sit back and nuke on a wall with everyone else you should be able to. I play aggressively much like you, but that’s often because I don’t have the option to sit back with all my other buddies.

- I’m always moving
Everyone should always be moving, that’s part of just general good play. It just shows you have a clue

- Emptying someones health in 6 seconds
Situational, depends on class and build. I assume your talking about using sneak attack and unload to do this at long range? It is not always possible, depends on if your hitting a warrior or an elementalist… or whether your specced glass cannon or not. It also depends on the other persons spec, although most people are pretty soft right now.

I hope you feel this is a better analysis of your post and my opinions of what you contributed. I just picked up on the stand out area of your post last time and I apologise if I upset you

In relation to the dragon world events.. the problem isn’t having less then 1200 range, the problem is that the dragons are FACEROLL if you have that 1200 range.. who designed these fights with such an obvious flaw in them?

Dragons should lay a can of whoopass down upon anyone attacking them.. regardless of range!

It probably does come down to playing style. During large sieges there’s always people in range, and during smaller ones I jump down and move to the side of their group. Either I pick people off or they chase me. If one person chases me I kill them, if it’s more than one then they’re wasting their time because thieves don’t die.

With 15 acrobatics you can dodge so much that getting into range has never felt like an issue to me. You can get away with almost anything and rarely die.

Considering how people constantly dog pistols as being less than shortbows.. i think shortbows should stay 900 range and pistols should go to 1200 range. That would balance the 2 weapon sets.

@Dronin I agree about that.

@Flamu, hi fellow tribes player! :>

Ha Flamu, stealing from warriors and gangkittenpeople in full zerker with orb buff is not helping this thread… however it is very funny

Devildoc I dont mind that

I really would like to know the reasoning behind not allowing Thiefs to have a 1200 range weapon, there must be a really good reason or they’ll implement it someday.

I agree that the range should be upped to 1200, I’ve thinking about this for days and I can’t come up with a logical conclusion why we’re locked to only 900! It’s insane.

TSLlol.4879:

I agree that the range should be upped to 1200, I’ve thinking about this for days and I can’t come up with a logical conclusion why we’re locked to only 900! It’s insane.

Yeah, the more WvW I play the more annoying it gets. I mean somebody has to be standing almost right underneath the wall in order to hit them.

WTB more range on the short-bow.

thief shortbow

crits for 5k can hit 3 targets

ranger shortbow
crits for 1k 1 target

see the difference?

sure rangers shortbow shoot 2times faster but thief damage is way higher and hit more targets

your class is already overpowered
giving 1200 range to thief shortbow will make it more op

saurus.8290:

thief shortbow

crits for 5k can hit 3 targets

ranger shortbow
crits for 1k 1 target

see the difference?

sure rangers shortbow shoot 2times faster but thief damage is way higher and hit more targets

your class is already overpowered
giving 1200 range to thief shortbow will make it more op

We are talking about WvW and range here, not damage. IF we’ll get the increased range and HOW it will be implemented is the developer decision, people are just stating an area of the game that they feel the Thief is lacking.

But, seriously, 5k in 3 targets? 3 Rabbits or 3 Naked lvl 10 toons? Plus Ranger Shortbow does way more than 1k.

saurus.8290:

crits for 5k can hit 3 targets

your class is already overpowered
giving 1200 range to thief shortbow will make it more op

Not sure if troll or just another QQ-er… it’s amazing if one crits for above 1.5k

Gamblit.5041:

Its a bummer that as a thief i feel like somewhat useless in WvW atm.
While everyone is having fun shooting from the Walls, all i get is " Out of Range " message all the time.

Look, I get it, you want to shoot from walls, and I agree that a longer ranged option for thieves on siege defense would be nice.

However, if you’re feeling “useless in WvW” it is probably because you’re doing something that the profession isn’t very well suited to. Thieves are amazing at chasing people down, soloing control points, soloing supply points, killing explorers, killing dolyaks, etc. Far better at it, in fact, than most professions. I’m sorry you aren’t having fun in WvW, because your chosen profession has so many better options than are available to most people for fun WvW play.

I agree that 1200 range is almost necessary in many WvW situations. I definitely don’t think that all ranged skills should be 1200 range though. Here’re my ideas:

Option 1: I’m not positive they could do this, but based on other powers I think it’s possible. Give Trickshot 1200 range, but at a cost. Make it like the Blunderbuss style abilities, which do more damage the closer they are, but using ricochet instead of raw damage. By that I mean that the current ability does 3 bounces at 900 range. Change that. Make it so that you can shoot at 1200 range, but if so it doesn’t bounce, it’s just a single shot per draw. To balance it out, and not make it a complete buff to an ability that already works fine, you would only get two bounces at 900 range instead of three, but you’d still get three bounces within 600 range. I think this would be balanced and useful.

Option 2: Replace Disabling Shot with “Sniper shot,” a 1200 range charged blast similar to the Warrior’s Burst attack, but maybe with a Cripple or Bleed effect.

Option 3: New weapon. Rifle, Longbow, whatever, I don’t think we need this, but I certainly wouldn’t kick it out of bed.

You’re standing underneath a wall anyway if you want to hit people on them, it’s actually safer and you lower cluster travel time meaning you can spam it…

And from 900 range the travel time is so long you can walk into range with 30 people firing your way, shoot and dodge backwards… you’ll take a little damage at most and by the time it lands you can repeat.

However, if you’re feeling “useless in WvW” it is probably because you’re doing something that the profession isn’t very well suited to. Thieves are amazing at chasing people down, soloing control points, soloing supply points, killing explorers, killing dolyaks, etc. Far better at it, in fact, than most professions. I’m sorry you aren’t having fun in WvW, because your chosen profession has so many better options than are available to most people for fun WvW play.

How many of those activities increment the “kill 50 players in WvW” monthly objective, because I’m still only halfway through that one, and most of the kills I do have came from people stupid enough to get close to our tower when I had access to a cannon, and not running away fast enough when damaged (if it were a ‘damage 50 players in WvW’ I’d have completed it in ten minutes).

So having read all the posts thus far and all the discussion about balance with a SHORTBOW 1200 range autoattack, I believe there is absolutely no reason for thief to be without it. I guess pistol is out of the question as AOE is king in WvW defense, plus having only pistols auto at 1200 would make it kinda pointless in relation to it’s other skills like unload/body shot. Yet raising all pistol skills to 1200 is going to incur the wrath of any thief hater.

Therefore back to shortbow, other then the misguided trolls or clueless who think thieves can 100 to 0 someone with a shortbow or have 5k auto crits, LOL. If fact, most of those in favor do not mind a slight damage tweak or it being traited. So long as there is an OPTION to do so and be marginally, and I repeat MARGINALLY better at keep defense.

Yahrim.9485:

Sylosi.6503:

So if thieves range should be brought into line, I take it you have no objection with every other classes mobilty, lack of stealth, burst damage, being “brought into line” witht that of a thief? Oh look we’ve just ended up with 8 classes exactly the same.

That’s number one where you mention all classes becoming the same.

Sylosi.6503:

I entriely agree, the point was “bringing into line” is utterly illogical as classes have differnt strengths/weakness/skills, etc and that classes are balanced as a whole, not on one specific aspect, if you bring everything into line, you have 8 identical classes.

That’s twice. By that logic GW2 would have 7 identical classes currently…

I can only suggest learning to read, I never stated giving 1200 range would make all classes the same (hence he was lying or has the same lack of basic comprehension as yourself).

I stated the “logic” that a specific aspect such as range should be “brought into line” is dumb and not how they balance, because if you follow that logic on every aspect (range, damage, armour, hp, etc), then you would indeed end up with all classes the same.

The fact you can not differentiate that a point on the illogical justification of “bringing into line” a specific aspect in isolation in regard to balancing, is an entirely different thing from saying “making some thief skills 1200 makes all classes the same”, is worrying and frankly says more about your reading skills than anything else.

Hence making out I said something which I did not, is the only thing near troll behaviour, the OP needs to learn disagreeing with someone is not trolling.

I’ll agree with the notion of having more weapon sets. Longbows of the singletarget or AoE variety please (They also look nicer than shortbows.)

Ohoni.6057:

However, if you’re feeling “useless in WvW” it is probably because you’re doing something that the profession isn’t very well suited to. Thieves are amazing at chasing people down, soloing control points, soloing supply points, killing explorers, killing dolyaks, etc. Far better at it, in fact, than most professions. I’m sorry you aren’t having fun in WvW, because your chosen profession has so many better options than are available to most people for fun WvW play.

How many of those activities increment the “kill 50 players in WvW” monthly objective, because I’m still only halfway through that one, and most of the kills I do have came from people stupid enough to get close to our tower when I had access to a cannon, and not running away fast enough when damaged (if it were a ‘damage 50 players in WvW’ I’d have completed it in ten minutes).

I can usually get “kill 50” in a few hours of solo or small group play. Just camp out by a “safe” skill point (one in the back of enemy territory) and you’ll be surprised how many people you can ambush and destroy. Optionally, set yourself up along an obvious road from the enemy’s respawn to wherever the fight is and kill people trickling in. Very few people can survive a thief getting the jump on them, especially if they’re completely unprepared for it.

I’m thinking this will become less of an issue when siege weaponry and organized tactics become popular. Considering Thieves can solo supply camps and sentries and are super mobile, I can’t see why they couldn’t set up some dangerous artilery behind the enemy to punish their frontal assault. But this will take time while funds accumulate

saurus.8290:

thief shortbow

crits for 5k can hit 3 targets

ranger shortbow
crits for 1k 1 target

see the difference?

sure rangers shortbow shoot 2times faster but thief damage is way higher and hit more targets

your class is already overpowered
giving 1200 range to thief shortbow will make it more op

This is why I think shortbow should stay 900, it’s a skirmishing aoe weapon.

Pistol is supposed to be our ranged single target weapon.

Yet it’s at 900 units too.

While yes you’ll take a single target down with pistols faster than shortbow, most people see shortbow’s additional utility/mobility/combos to be worth the damage tradeoff. Pistols are neglected.

Putting pistols at 1200 range would equalize them (though I still think pistols need something, mainly head shot damage increase and body shot vuln duration increase)

People asking for shortbow to be 1200 range are being very unrealistic. You’re asking for AOE at a 1200 range. You will never get it.

Single target 1200 range is more reasonable.

Pistols definitely should NOT get 1200 range. They are a skirmishing weapon, designed to be paired with daggers and swords. You should not be able to both fire at 1200 range and have the solid melee options the other weapons provide.

People asking for shortbow to be 1200 range are being very unrealistic. You’re asking for AOE at a 1200 range. You will never get it.

Single target 1200 range is more reasonable.

Not every attack in the Shortbow arsenal would need to be raised to 1200, Most ranged weapons in the game have variable ranges to them. All of the Ranger Shortbow skills are at 1200 range, and at least one Thief Shortbow skill is already at 1200 (and it’s an AoE), so adding a few more wouldn’t be ridiculous.

900 range on the pistol or shortbow might be problematic. But I could see some really cool skills coming off giving Thieves access to rifles.

we have the least amount of sets of all.

Naw, pretty sure that’s engineers with only two and a half.

Technically can use their utilites in the same way as an Elementalist uses elements and they still get f1 to f4 for utilites…

So grenades, Bombs, elixir gun and flamethrower are 4 more

Ohoni I totally agree with you, Not every attack, Id be happy for just the auto attack

saurus.8290:

thief shortbow

crits for 5k can hit 3 targets

ranger shortbow
crits for 1k 1 target

see the difference?

sure rangers shortbow shoot 2times faster but thief damage is way higher and hit more targets

your class is already overpowered
giving 1200 range to thief shortbow will make it more op

Saurus I dont know where on earth you are getting your figures from but they are just a little bit off

Ill correct you for the figures of my theif and ranger in same gear from the mist

Ranger short bow
~480 hits 850 crits / can add bleed to target, sustains 10 stacks for an additional 500+dps
- full divinity runes,
- berserker amu, knights gem
- short bow with no sigil
- 30/30/0/0/10
- Heavy golem kill time
– From front 8.5-10 seconds dependant on crits holding pet back
– From front 6.5-7.5 seconds dependant on crits with pet
– From behind 6.5-7.5 second dependant on crits holding pet back
– From behind 5-5.5 seconds dependant on crits with pet
- assuming the heavy golem has 12k hp ranger dps:
-front no pet: ~ 1300dps
-front with pet: ~ 1700dps
-back no pet: ~ 1700dps
-back with pet: ~ 2285dps (pet had to be closer as was closer to the golem to be behind)

Theif Short bow
~480 hits 850crits / Hits 3 targets.
- full divinity runes,
- berserker amu with knights gem
- short bow with no sigil
- 25/25/5/0/15
- Heavy golem kill time 18-20 seconds dependant on crits
- asuming golem has 12k hp, dps:
- Single target ~ 630 dps
-Three targets ~1890 dps

please, test things before you come here and complain, and dont forget the range difference.

The reason the theifs damage is just under half of the ranger is due to opening strike giving the ranger a buff to their opening damage and stacking some vuln causing the target to drop faster. Usually the ranger would do twice the dps as the damage is the same and the attack speed is double

Dronin.3957:

I think rifles has become a really popular theme on this forum recently!

It reminds me of my Sniper in Old Republic. That was kind of a novel class.

Ohoni.6057:

Pistols definitely should NOT get 1200 range. They are a skirmishing weapon, designed to be paired with daggers and swords. You should not be able to both fire at 1200 range and have the solid melee options the other weapons provide.

People asking for shortbow to be 1200 range are being very unrealistic. You’re asking for AOE at a 1200 range. You will never get it.

Single target 1200 range is more reasonable.

Not every attack in the Shortbow arsenal would need to be raised to 1200, Most ranged weapons in the game have variable ranges to them. All of the Ranger Shortbow skills are at 1200 range, and at least one Thief Shortbow skill is already at 1200 (and it’s an AoE), so adding a few more wouldn’t be ridiculous.

Okay let’s just take pistols out of thieve’s arsenal then if you want to continue to make shortbow increasingly better than them.

Right now pistols only have an edge on single target damage where you can just stand there and pew pew.

They need something.

Okay let’s just take pistols out of thieve’s arsenal then if you want to continue to make shortbow increasingly better than them.

No, pistols are fine, they are just a mid-range skirmish weapon, designed to be used interchangeably with melee weapons, while Shortbow is more of an artillery stand-off weapon, better suited to long range. That really shouldn’t be a matter of debate, but to clarify, the Shortbow already has a 1200 range attack, has three ground targeted attacks, and cannot be paired in a single toolset with any melee attacks.

The Pistol, on the other hand, is all direct fire attacks, all 900 range and below, and can be paired on either side with swords and daggers, so it’s clearly meant to interact with these melee attacks, and to be used while dodging around the opponent just outside of melee range, similar to the Ranger’s Axe or Engineer Pistol. Giving Pistol extreme range is not a good idea.

Now, if you believe that the Pistol is not balanced, then that’s a separate discussion, but if it is, increasing its functional range is a poor way to fix it.

Yes, a thief with shortbow can hit multiple targets for 5k… if very lucky. But it’s a ground target AOE with a long travel time and it cannot be spammed unless point blank range.

Unless you’re refering to trick shot, in which case you’re just being silly. There’s no way that’s gonna crit that high. The average trick shot hits for 500 noncrit, +/- 100 depending on gear/spec/target.

pmnt.4067:

How about that: since 900 -> 1200 is a 33% increase in range, so nerf the damage by 33%. (Btw: It would not be the first time that a class gets hit by a 33% nerfhammer)

But I agree that Thieves should also get 1200 option – even though they are gernerally OP atm.

It already hits weaker than pretty much every other ranged option in the game. Try playing a Thief and using bow and tell us how great it is when you get back. The only reason so many people use it is for the teleport.

Tell you what, how about they increase the range to 1200, make cluster bomb do the full damage without detonate, make poison cloud last 6 seconds instead of 4, and buff the damage for the first target you hit with the 1 skill by 33%, lower the second 2 bounces to compensate. Then we might actually have a viable ranged weapon. Except you would still have to add traits that benefit SB because we really don’t have anything at the moment.

Thieves aren’t overpowered. Haste, Quickness, and Frenzy are. All 3 should just be removed from the game. Time Warp and quickness procs (RNG) should be removed as well.

Humorless.1573:

Yes, a thief with shortbow can hit multiple targets for 5k… if very lucky. But it’s a ground target AOE with a long travel time and it cannot be spammed unless point blank range.

Unless you’re refering to trick shot, in which case you’re just being silly. There’s no way that’s gonna crit that high. The average trick shot hits for 500 noncrit, +/- 100 depending on gear/spec/target.

Humorless as he suggest 3 targets and cluster bomb hits as many that are in the puddle I think hes pointing more towards trick shot

With the same spec that is mentioned above the arrow will hit for:
2580 non detonated max crit on heavy golem

2670 detonated max crit on heavy golem if all 3 parts crit

assassins signet doesn’t seem to affect the damage.

are rangers as deadly as Thieves close up?

are rangers as deadly as Thieves close up?

In my experience (having a main Thief and secondary Ranger), a Shortbow Ranger is deadlier than a Shortbow Thief in close, but not as deadly as a D/D Thief. Rangers are ok, I don’t think they need messing with.

This isn’t really a balance issue, the solution doesn’t need to make Thieves “better” than they are in an overall sense, it can be a “+1/-1” solution, but Thieves should have some more opportunities to deal damage at 1200 range, given how vital having that distance be be when challenging certain content.

Either that or make it much easier to survive when in a general melee press or fighting a giant boss mob with PBAoEs, so that Thieves can chill out as comfortably within 600 range as characters currently can at 1200-1500.

illgot.1056:

are rangers as deadly as Thieves close up?

I’m so glad you asked this

Shortsword + warhorn

use call of the wild for fury might and swiftness,
use hunters call,
use quickening zephyr,
auto attack,
get a sub 4 second kill on the heavy golem…

Seriously good burst

My vote is for 1200 Rifles. Or at the VERY least an optional trait to turn shortbows/pistols into 1200 range.

Eliteseraph.4970:

My vote is for 1200 Rifles. Or at the VERY least an optional trait to turn shortbows/pistols into 1200 range.

I’m leaning more towards a trait at this point in the game. Another weapon sounds very expansion pack.