Guild Wars 2

Im jumping in the bandwagon ive tried so much to not admit it but can we nerf the thieves already? i mean come on you even admit it this class is just so annoying you can evade everything deal decent amount of damage and run away so easy thats not even funny.

this might seem like rant but i cant express how annoying it is to be 3 shotted from nowhere and not be able to retaliate.

to be honest its bulls…..

I’m just gonna go ahead and re-post my picture from another thief thread and it should fix your problem.

Nice art you made man. Although everyone going for 4k armor is not the solution, just sayin’.

That picture is lol

OP: L2P

Ofc 4k armour isn’t the solution for everyone but it proves that thieves aren’t the “almighty-mega-op-kill-all build”, if you have trouble with thieves or glasscannons in general then invest in more defensive traits.

I rarely post on these forums as half the community here make me sigh in disbelief but this caught my attention.

The Thief is annoying but if they weren’t I don’t think they would be considered a Thief. The mobility and option to pop out of view (within reason) is the backbone of the profession: If we aren’t buzzing around you like a bothersome fly that won’t go away then we’re not doing it right!

There’s a trait bonus that grants us 15% endurance back after we dodge meaning (with a full bar) we can evade 3 times in 5 seconds and some weapon sets offer poor damaging + evade skills but burning through those leaves us in a worse situation if we actually want to escape and we won’t have any initiative left to do something fancier than auto-attacking. As for stealth, well, you might not see us but you can still hit us. Several times I have been downed having just entered stealth because the opponent predicted where I would be or used some AoE on where I was last seen. You might have also been standing in a black powder pool generated from the pistol 5 skill which applies a small AoE blind for 4 seconds. Generally speaking we have low toughness and a lower health pool as well so when you can hit us it does hurt a fair bit and if you’re facing a berserker Thief then any landed hits will make them melt faster than butter on the surface of the sun. In some respect we are the definition of glass cannon.

You mention being 3-shotted and automatically I think you’re exaggerating due to understandable frustration but if true then I have to assume you’re some kind of low toughness/vitality build and had been attacked by a full berserker Thief. In that situation 7-9k backstabs and 3-4k heartseekers aren’t unheard of but landing that particular scenario isn’t easy unless the target is stationary and not looking around. First we’d need to spot the target and then hide behind structures until they get closer or stealth to avoid them seeing our where-abouts. Then we’d need to catch up to them whilst remaining unseen which is often a bad joke unless they are running nearby. There are perma-stealth builds so in theory you can tail someone in the open while remaining unseen but the mandatory stopping to “top up” means our travel speed is severely hindered and chasing a constantly moving target is genuinely impossible (plus a keen eye can spot our tell-tale black powder rings, so even then there is still a way of knowing about our presence). It’s nowhere near as easy as you might think!

To mirror the other replies, more toughness would greatly help in such situations. I guess in some aspects it’s that age-old “rock paper scissors” deal and generally speaking a berserker Thief will beat a berserker anything else if he gets the jump on him.

zero.5317:

I rarely post on these forums as half the community here make me sigh in disbelief but this caught my attention.

The Thief is annoying but if they weren’t I don’t think they would be considered a Thief. The mobility and option to pop out of view (within reason) is the backbone of the profession: If we aren’t buzzing around you like a bothersome fly that won’t go away then we’re not doing it right!

There’s a trait bonus that grants us 15% endurance back after we dodge meaning (with a full bar) we can evade 3 times in 5 seconds and some weapon sets offer poor damaging + evade skills but burning through those leaves us in a worse situation if we actually want to escape and we won’t have any initiative left to do something fancier than auto-attacking. As for stealth, well, you might not see us but you can still hit us. Several times I have been downed having just entered stealth because the opponent predicted where I would be or used some AoE on where I was last seen. You might have also been standing in a black powder pool generated from the pistol 5 skill which applies a small AoE blind for 4 seconds. Generally speaking we have low toughness and a lower health pool as well so when you can hit us it does hurt a fair bit and if you’re facing a berserker Thief then any landed hits will make them melt faster than butter on the surface of the sun. In some respect we are the definition of glass cannon.

You mention being 3-shotted and automatically I think you’re exaggerating due to understandable frustration but if true then I have to assume you’re some kind of low toughness/vitality build and had been attacked by a full berserker Thief. In that situation 7-9k backstabs and 3-4k heartseekers aren’t unheard of but landing that particular scenario isn’t easy unless the target is stationary and not looking around. First we’d need to spot the target and then hide behind structures until they get closer or stealth to avoid them seeing our where-abouts. Then we’d need to catch up to them whilst remaining unseen which is often a bad joke unless they are running nearby. There are perma-stealth builds so in theory you can tail someone in the open while remaining unseen but the mandatory stopping to “top up” means our travel speed is severely hindered and chasing a constantly moving target is genuinely impossible (plus a keen eye can spot our tell-tale black powder rings, so even then there is still a way of knowing about our presence). It’s nowhere near as easy as you might think!

To mirror the other replies, more toughness would greatly help in such situations. I guess in some aspects it’s that age-old “rock paper scissors” deal and generally speaking a berserker Thief will beat a berserker anything else if he gets the jump on him.

cant argue anything in here. i bet this blew his mind

So many of these posts and threads about the Castrophic Theif Tyranizing WvW and Class Balance far too long.. near 1 year Anniversary.. yet nothing been done about it.

The Only One Who Have The Absolute Power To End This Tryanny Once And For All Is;-Is- Arena net

Yet

As the saying goes, ""the one who support Tyranny is a Tyrant"

Is this Arena net?

Dude all this kittening and complaining about wvw roaming thieves, the one area where the thief skills actually shine and the entire non thief community is up in arms about the NERFFFFFF HAMMER hulk-smashing the thief…

Have you seen a thief in a zerg? Were you petrified and peeing in your pants when you see a thief shooting his all powerful clusterbomb at 1500 range, dropping support banners and giving out boons to teammates like candy? Perhaps dropping necro AoE and killing 5 guys before they even notice they had 5 different conditions on them and 12 stacks of bleed in 3 seconds?

No? There’s a good reason for that, we are not a zerg class. Our best support in a zerg is spamming CB on a firefield to stack might on teammates or something but outside of that and cloaking our zerg and surprise attack (which a mesmer can also do), we aren’t useful in a zerg. We can, however, pick off stragglers in a zerg, get in a good backstab or 2 before the rest of the zerg realize we are there, finishing off the injured and then gtfo. Why? Because we are thieves, not a guard warr or necro…

EDIT: All this being said there are some thieves who make a living trolling people in wvw, all they do is dodge roll and dance over the place, then go “hey I’m still here! You cant catch me! na na na na na~!” until these guys get tired of him and run away, at which point the thief will pick off the last 2 guys before anyone notices. Just for the sheer joy of trolling. And that is infuriating, but trolls will be trolls.

There is more tyranny in pretend to destroy a whole class becouse of laziness.
Cry about a class is always easier than try to understand how it works first, and than how to deal with it.

Burnfall.9573:

So many of these posts and threads about the Castrophic Theif Tyranizing WvW and Class Balance far too long.. near 1 year Anniversary.. yet nothing been done about it.

The Only One Who Have The Absolute Power To End This Tryanny Once And For All Is;-Is- Arena net

Yet

As the saying goes, ""the one who support Tyranny is a Tyrant"

Is this Arena net?

so many of these posts are from NON thieves who are bad. :P seriously its a L2P issue. 99% of the time its a L2P issue. i erally hate saying that bc its and inadvertant way of calling somebody a bad player or “ignorant” to the truth/experience. we cant show enough videos of good players beating thieves…or give tips. we shouldnt even have to do that. thieves suck at everything important in the game. we are only good at roaming. and guess what? roaming is not a part of the game. its a “thing” or “term” players made up. has 0 to do with the game. so basically thieves suck at the game. logic. its amazing

Travlane.5948:

its a “thing” or “term” players made up. has 0 to do with the game. so basically thieves suck at the game. logic. its amazing

What is your definition of the game? Roaming is not only part of wvw its pretty important too. Just look at the stats, points coming from yaks/sentries/camps make up 25% of a server’s points. Thieves have some very special advantage by being able to stay invisible for longer periods of time, which results in mesmer sweaps. I’m not saying it slows the game down, but it does add an element to it. And to say that thieves are useless otherwise is just not true. There are other classes that contribute in other ways, which people find more convenient. Its human nature. I’m positive that if people took the time, effort to utilise what thieves have to offer they could be very useful in wvw. A thief can hide a party for 10 sec, share poisons with them which then results in 5 people’s attacks adding poison/immobilize/stun out of stealth. That could be useful, but people choose to just run with guards and elementalist, cause thats easier.

nagymbear.5280:

A thief can hide a party for 10 sec, share poisons with them which then results in 5 people’s attacks adding poison/immobilize/stun out of stealth. That could be useful, but people choose to just run with guards and elementalist, cause thats easier.

You are talking about a specific venom share thief build that most people don’t run for various reasons. People run with ele’s or guards because they can support very easily without compromising too much of their own dps or survivability.

Example: On just one critical hit, thieves do not gain vigor for 5s + give 5s of might to nearby allies + proc altruistic healing for each allies that get might like a guard can, effectively dealing damage, healing, and supporting, all at the same time. We can do damage OR focus on survival OR support, we cannot do all 3 as well as a guard can.

well first lets define roaming b4 we get to discussing what when where why how its important or not. IMHO:

Roaming: The act of a character on a WvWvW map wandering about without interest in societal productivity, more over the goal of self served elation through 1v1 or small skirmishes. Occasionally does the thief through bordom take sentries.

now for a literal definition:

ROAM (rm)
v. roamed, roam·ing, roams
v.intr.
To move about without purpose or plan; wander. See Synonyms at wander.
v.tr.
To wander over or through: roamed the streets.
n.
The act or an instance of roaming.

most used synonym : wander (personal note : wanderlust)

ok this said now we can discuss why or why its not important. none of the goals specified in the definition above are helping the server/guild/zerg. none of the give poitns. killing yaks gives liek 1-3 points per kill which is nice but not going to really be worth saying " ok lets split up and run the score upwith yaks".

mesmer sweeps? that is a sweep in a keep/garrison/tower looking for mesmers so they cant portal people in. hence it being called mesmer sweeps. looking for thieves is only bc they hide and revive mesmers sometimes. but generally its useless unless they have a mesmer to revive.

everything a thief can do in wvw another class can do better (which exclusion of roaming as only 1 or 2 classes other than thief have the ability to roam at any talented level)….that said i guess you COULD utilize a thief in wvw however why would you? if i gave you 50 people that you could make into any class/build you wouldnt run more than prolly 2 thieves and thats only for blast finishing. they are useless in a zerg bcof aoe melts them faster than butter on a hot pan.

poison sharing? i could see this being usefull but outside of the poinson sharring its like….not going to be much production. you have 49 people in your zerg. the 50th you have a choice of venom share or another necro…which would you choose. outside of the venoms the thief wont do much. the necro can cover that many conditions with 2 skills on his staff. then he can use the other 3 skills plus a line of utilities and then switch weapons and pop off 4 more which are all AOE effective. why would u take a venom sharer over that.

TLDR: thief can do stuff but other classes offer more in the group play standard. why pick a th ief if they wont be AS productive AS another class? so this is why we all run roaming builds rather than venom share. its not a coincidence. if we cant be as usefull as others why not roam and have fun being selfish. :P

I play a ranger 99.9% and feel I should defend thieves. For quite a while I also thought “**** thieves, those no-skill, heart-seeker spamming, trolling nubs!” Then I rolled a thief, got him to 80 and did some WvW. It is not as easy as it looks. But I learned some of their mechanics and now I have no fear of solo thieves. Even a GC thief cannot down me ever, unless I make a terrible mistake.

My favorite fights are against really talented thieves. When played well, it is a class that is really fun to watch. When played poorly they are walking loot bags, just like any other class.

That said, when a thief is part of a duo or small group, they are devastating. An experienced player can track a thief in 1v1 and counter their moves (assuming you have high toughness). But in the chaos of a skirmish, a GC thief especially can be a powerhouse, picking off wounded targets, dropping the unaware, and stealth stomping/rezing.

Sure it can be annoying, but it is no more annoying or unbalanced than my ranger who can shrug off burst attacks and passively heal so much that I’m sure my opponents sometimes feel like they are beating against a rock.

At least in WvW and for roaming/havoc, thieves are not OP. It really is a L2p issue, as well as having the right build to roam. If a GC thief can kill you in their initial burst and you have no defensive tools to fall back on, then you should consider a different build for roaming.

Bredin.5368:

I play a ranger 99.9% and feel I should defend thieves. For quite a while I also thought “**** thieves, those no-skill, heart-seeker spamming, trolling nubs!” Then I rolled a thief, got him to 80 and did some WvW. It is not as easy as it looks. But I learned some of their mechanics and now I have no fear of solo thieves. Even a GC thief cannot down me ever, unless I make a terrible mistake.

My favorite fights are against really talented thieves. When played well, it is a class that is really fun to watch. When played poorly they are walking loot bags, just like any other class.

That said, when a thief is part of a duo or small group, they are devastating. An experienced player can track a thief in 1v1 and counter their moves (assuming you have high toughness). But in the chaos of a skirmish, a GC thief especially can be a powerhouse, picking off wounded targets, dropping the unaware, and stealth stomping/rezing.

Sure it can be annoying, but it is no more annoying or unbalanced than my ranger who can shrug off burst attacks and passively heal so much that I’m sure my opponents sometimes feel like they are beating against a rock.

At least in WvW and for roaming/havoc, thieves are not OP. It really is a L2p issue, as well as having the right build to roam. If a GC thief can kill you in their initial burst and you have no defensive tools to fall back on, then you should consider a different build for roaming.

well said man. same with d/p … if u can F up their BPS to HS combo they are sitting ducks with only a couple of init left.

Travlane.5948:

poison sharing? i could see this being usefull but outside of the poinson sharring its like….not going to be much production. you have 49 people in your zerg. the 50th you have a choice of venom share or another necro…which would you choose.

Well I don’t want to split hairs, but if we’re talking about 49 guys already in the zerg 1 more won’t have a huge inpact on the zerg. So you might as well bring one more thief.

Ah, Burnfall, again….

Another thief thread, what a shock -_-

Even my glass cannon thief can’t be three shotted by another thief… Those few thieves that build like being able to dish out 10k backstabs have sacrificed nearly all of their survivability for one attack. It’s so redicolously easy to counter that it isn’t fun….

Denial Of Service.5732:

Im jumping in the bandwagon

welcome to the club DOS

nagymbear.5280:

Travlane.5948:

poison sharing? i could see this being usefull but outside of the poinson sharring its like….not going to be much production. you have 49 people in your zerg. the 50th you have a choice of venom share or another necro…which would you choose.

Well I don’t want to split hairs, but if we’re talking about 49 guys already in the zerg 1 more won’t have a huge inpact on the zerg. So you might as well bring one more thief.

its not about 1 mroe impacting the zerg. its about 1 person vs the other. like a zerg of 50 thieves will ALWAYS lose to a zerg of 50 necros….its about invidivual comparison and why to or not to bring thieves

One moment, I’m trying to find my tiny violin.

In all seriousness, please try to improve your play before you try to ruin another class. A lot of people only play one class and nerfs based on posts like this isn’t good for the game. People quit when their class is needlessly nerfed.

totalpwnage.6534:

I’m just gonna go ahead and re-post my picture from another thief thread and it should fix your problem.

Actually, considering how the damage formula works, if someone with 2,700 armor is getting hit for 15,000, someone with 4,000 armor should be hit for 10,125.

Honestly, as a Warrior, Thieves are the reason I originally went full Soldier armor in WvW. After checking my damage logs in WvW, I realized that they weren’t really doing that much damage to me. Now I’m running Berserker armor with Knight Trinkets and I’m still not getting oneshot.

Am I doing something wrong?

Actually, considering how the damage formula works, if someone with 2,700 armor is getting hit for 15,000, someone with 4,000 armor should be hit for 10,125.

Honestly, as a Warrior, Thieves are the reason I originally went full Soldier armor in WvW. After checking my damage logs in WvW, I realized that they weren’t really doing that much damage to me. Now I’m running Berserker armor with Knight Trinkets and I’m still not getting oneshot.

Am I doing something wrong?

:) I think you’re doing it right! Vitality handles burst better than toughness anyways; your math shows that to some extent. It’ll be costly but you might end up with better stats if you go knight armor and berserker trinkets though. You should end up with similar stats but higher crit damage.

Hype.8032:

One moment, I’m trying to find my tiny violin.

In all seriousness, please try to improve your play before you try to ruin another class. A lot of people only play one class and nerfs based on posts like this isn’t good for the game. People quit when their class is needlessly nerfed.

I got you covered! :D

Let me play a sad song for you guys (especially burnfall).

Olba.5376:

totalpwnage.6534:

I’m just gonna go ahead and re-post my picture from another thief thread and it should fix your problem.

Actually, considering how the damage formula works, if someone with 2,700 armor is getting hit for 15,000, someone with 4,000 armor should be hit for 10,125.

Honestly, as a Warrior, Thieves are the reason I originally went full Soldier armor in WvW. After checking my damage logs in WvW, I realized that they weren’t really doing that much damage to me. Now I’m running Berserker armor with Knight Trinkets and I’m still not getting oneshot.

Am I doing something wrong?

Not at all. I went knights armor cavalier trinkets on my warrior when I first hit 80 because there were threads about lack of sustain and thief burst and what not. I’m currently in the process of gearing to berserker armor because the highest crit backstab I got hit with (so far) was 3.5k damage from a thief who had wrecked me on my thief earlier that week. I was able to down him with a combination of LB, axe auto, shield bash, and finally eviscerate which hit for over 7.5k (on a toughness build 0/15/25/0/30). I actually decided I had too much defense and could trade some for attack. Fighting thieves really comes down to having played as them and realizing that their only defense is smoke and mirrors.

But I onry haz 15-17k HP as not entirely GC and full GC Warriors are tanky and can do 1200 range backstab damage w/o needing stealth or flanking and 1shot meh. I dun need nerfed our squishyness is enough sacrifice.
Didn’t catch a screen of the 17k crit Kill Shot. :<

Doggie.3184:

But I onry haz 15-17k HP as not entirely GC and full GC Warriors are tanky and can do 1200 range backstab damage w/o needing stealth or flanking and 1shot meh. I dun need nerfed our squishyness is enough sacrifice.
Didn’t catch a screen of the 17k crit Kill Shot. :<

I’ve been one-shotted by killshot when I was running a glassy build a few times. Nothing to complain about though, if I would have played better or put on more defense I would have survived. It’s a good lesson for the OP to learn.

Any good GC thief has a priority target system. You, unfortunately, are full glass and make for their #1 target.

They can probably tell by:
A) your greatsword
your greatsword
C) boo boos
D) you’re a warrior
E) your greatsword

Now I am going to make a Greatsword Warrior tank build exclusively to troll thieves.

Doggie.3184:

But I onry haz 15-17k HP as not entirely GC and full GC Warriors are tanky and can do 1200 range backstab damage w/o needing stealth or flanking and 1shot meh. I dun need nerfed our squishyness is enough sacrifice.
Didn’t catch a screen of the 17k crit Kill Shot. :<

Thief isn’t the only class that get’s downed by warrior specced for f1… Thief ehp isn’t significally lower than that of a guard, only 10% or so, thieves just tend to play a glass spec more often.

As for the topic, I think that d/p is the only build that clearly needs a nerf.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Doggie.3184:

But I onry haz 15-17k HP as not entirely GC and full GC Warriors are tanky and can do 1200 range backstab damage w/o needing stealth or flanking and 1shot meh. I dun need nerfed our squishyness is enough sacrifice.
Didn’t catch a screen of the 17k crit Kill Shot. :<

Thief isn’t the only class that get’s downed by warrior specced for f1… Thief ehp isn’t significally lower than that of a guard, only 10% or so, thieves just tend to play a glass spec more often.

As for the topic, I think that d/p is the only build that clearly needs a nerf.

guardians have the sam hp pool but so much more toughness so there is a BIG difference between guard/thief being kill shotted. also d/p isnt OP…just has variety of skills that are viable and balanced. d/p is actually at mercy alot….. if u cant figure out how and why…. :P well then its a L2p issue. there are actually other thief builds that are overall a lil stronger.