Guild Wars 2

“On My Mark!”: This skill now applies revealed for 4 seconds in addition to vulnerability.
Is this a joke? Why only 4s tho? Should be 6s like sick em. I didnt tested it but im sure we cant even dodge it and its insta cast so there is no counterplay to it, as usual.
I suggest to give reveal to dragonhunters as well in the next patch. Or just give it to everyone. Its definetly well designed, anet. You are keep destroying our class and Im not even surprised.

Terissimo.6852:

“On My Mark!”: This skill now applies revealed for 4 seconds in addition to vulnerability.
Is this a joke? Why only 4s tho? Should be 6s like sick em. I didnt tested it but im sure we cant even dodge it and its insta cast so there is no counterplay to it, as usual.
I suggest to give reveal to dragonhunters as well in the next patch. Or just give it to everyone. Its definetly well designed, anet. You are keep destroying our class and Im not even surprised.

Dragonhunter already has a reveal had it since HoT launch…..

Ow right, their trap I totally forget about it since noone is using it. Well, their shout should reveal us then :P

That’s the biggest concern I had from the update, and an unjust warrior buff/thief nerf imo.

Reveals should be part of the counter meta as long as stealth stacking is allowed. Fighting against invisible opponents particularly something like the Ghost Thief should have solid counter play options.

Straegen.2938:

Reveals should be part of the counter meta as long as stealth stacking is allowed. Fighting against invisible opponents particularly something like the Ghost Thief should have solid counter play options.

What is this Ghost Thief I keep hearing about?

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

What is this Ghost Thief I keep hearing about?

If this is sarcasm, ignore the reply.

A Ghost Thief build centers around stealth stacking to stay permanently stealthed and uses attacks that have no damage component so they are never directly revealed. This is mainly done with Needle Trap, Krait/Plex runes, Caltrops, Bewildering Ambush, Serpent’s Touch, etc.

Basically the only way to fight it is to run away after the first condi application, use a Disrupter trap or be on one of the few classes that has a non-targeted reveal such as Scrapper.

On my mark is a skill which is already under used so couldn’t care at all lol. They kitten themselves by using it over other utils.

Stop caring about irrelevant stuff

Straegen.2938:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

What is this Ghost Thief I keep hearing about?

If this is sarcasm, ignore the reply.

A Ghost Thief build centers around stealth stacking to stay permanently stealthed and uses attacks that have no damage component so they are never directly revealed. This is mainly done with Needle Trap, Krait/Plex runes, Caltrops, Bewildering Ambush, Serpent’s Touch, etc.

Basically the only way to fight it is to run away after the first condi application, use a Disrupter trap or be on one of the few classes that has a non-targeted reveal such as Scrapper.

Oh yeah, the condi stealth trapper. Didn’t think that build was very dangerous unless a couple thieves run together with it.

bluri.2653:

On my mark is a skill which is already under used so couldn’t care at all lol. They kitten themselves by using it over other utils.

Stop caring about irrelevant stuff

I mostly run in WvW, so I can only speak for that. When I’m running a prof that has reveal available and I see a thief in the area, I switch a skill to it just for that.

That still means the war has to give up something for it regardless. And that is quite a lot just for reveal.

i wouldn’t worry about it, unless if they super buff healing shouts, and then, and only then they will still have to give up one of their traitline (tactics) for it.

its one of those useless buffs to satisfy them since for a while they got nerf to the ground, like thief.

No one will ever use On My Mark, even with the 4s reveal. Teef was doomed ever since the CD on stealth attacks. There’s only one person good enough to play thief and overcome the powercreep, and that’s the almighty Terissimo

Koto.1824:

No one will ever use On My Mark, even with the 4s reveal. Teef was doomed ever since the CD on stealth attacks. There’s only one person good enough to play thief and overcome the powercreep, and that’s the almighty Terissimo

CD on stealth attack was unnecessary and kinda useless as well. You only notice it once in a while tbh. Annoying like a D/D condi thief you meet every 20th match or so. Most of them can be oneshotted with rev. Don´t think I actually met a “good” D/D condi-thief this year.

Coronit.9432:

Koto.1824:

No one will ever use On My Mark, even with the 4s reveal. Teef was doomed ever since the CD on stealth attacks. There’s only one person good enough to play thief and overcome the powercreep, and that’s the almighty Terissimo

CD on stealth attack was unnecessary and kinda useless as well. You only notice it once in a while tbh. Annoying like a D/D condi thief you meet every 20th match or so. Most of them can be oneshotted with rev. Don´t think I actually met a “good” D/D condi-thief this year.

Once again, I can only speak for WvW, but that stealth CD is more than just an annoyance there.

Terissimo.6852:

“On My Mark!”: This skill now applies revealed for 4 seconds in addition to vulnerability.
Is this a joke? Why only 4s tho? Should be 6s like sick em. I didnt tested it but im sure we cant even dodge it and its insta cast so there is no counterplay to it, as usual.
I suggest to give reveal to dragonhunters as well in the next patch. Or just give it to everyone. Its definetly well designed, anet. You are keep destroying our class and Im not even surprised.

And yet that skill is as crappy as ever. This is a non-issue. No self-respecting warrior uses shouts.

PS. I’m thoroughly surprised that crappy didn’t get kittened. xD

Im just worried being outnumbered and having THAT one warrior who switched skill just to take me down. Its instant cast and long range just as sick em which is ridiculous as well, forcing us to run away for 6s.

I doubt many warriors will run it. The skill itself isn’t really that good.

Really, the things to be complaining about still are the ICD to stealth attacks and changes to BV.

The more and more patches that come out for the thief, the more I suspect they’re nerfing core stealth and stealth attack builds in preparation for the next elite. Wouldn’t surprise me if the next one indeed ends up as a rifle-based stealth-camping sniper, and we see all professions getting tons of reveal access to sweep thieves with as “counterplay”.

As I said some time ago, though, I think Karl just wants us all on D/D condi venom gank squads.

I really do not have a problem with this reveal. What I DO have a problem with is Professions WITH such skills complaining that stealth is OP and when pointed out they can take such a skill then contradicting themselves when they say they have better skills to use.

babazhook.6805:

I really do not have a problem with this reveal. What I DO have a problem with is Professions WITH such skills complaining that stealth is OP and when pointed out they can take such a skill then contradicting themselves when they say they have better skills to use.

The Druid, DH and Warrior whine I constantly get from whispers playing WvW is ridiculous.

Hopefully this is just a way for Anet to cull the amount of whining about Stealth.
I mean, it’s a terrible utility even with this buff. I’ll gladly face warriors that run this… It’s 4 seconds in every 30 (or 24 if they actually bothered traiting is)… If you can’t kite that out against a warrior, you’ve got bigger issues than a Reveal.

I don’t even use stealth anymore. They should just delete it since everyone hates it so much including the devs. I never wanted it in the first place. I wanted a GW1 Assassin styled class.

See, this sort of silliness is why I started playing S/P in the first place.

What warrior is gonna take this stupid shout over triple stance or something with a stun break. This is nothing to worry about, the only time I would even think about using it is in wvw and there’s a ghost thief around trolling.

My problem with it is whole concept of giving classes reveals on demand. The core is (close to) unplayable in higher tiers of pvp because Anet been handling reveals to other classes like candy. Why not allow steal to disable entire trait line of the class for 6 sec? Let’s see how it will be accepted. It is somehow ok to force thief players into such crap.

a warrior who picks this up is usually a free kill

unless friends are about and you are solo…

babazhook.6805:

I really do not have a problem with this reveal. What I DO have a problem with is Professions WITH such skills complaining that stealth is OP and when pointed out they can take such a skill then contradicting themselves when they say they have better skills to use.

Because there are eight other professions. Some of those have access to stealth, but since the PU nerf, none of them really use stealth to the degree that a countermeasure to it is worth a utility slot for fighting them.

Revealed also isn’t a hard counter to thieves. Most revealed skills have a fairly low uptime, and some of them are only available if you can target the thief in the first place (which is not when you really want it). If you land it on a thief that has their resources topped up, they can usually either survive the revealed period using evade frames, or use their mobility to disengage until the revealed wears off. For it to really work, you need to land it on a thief when stealth was their last hope of survival.

Most people aren’t going to cripple themselves against the other eight professions just to be a little bit better against one. In sPvP, you can look at the enemy lineup and decide whether revealed skills are worth taking… but in practise, thieves stack poorly, so if the enemy team has that many thieves they’ve probably already forfeited the advantage to you anyway. Good PvP players will know that and will switch profession if they see such an unbalanced lineup, so if you do switch in a Revealed skill it may turn out redundant anyway. Bad ones… well, a bad thief player is their own counter. In WvW… well, no revealed skill will protect you against the random thief gank from nowhere, and stealth isn’t exactly your biggest concern in zerg fights. So the revealed skills you’re going to see are those that are packaged with something else that’s worth having in its own right, and the Revealed is an added bonus.

To add insult to injury, the professions that have revealed skills are, by and large, those that don’t really need them. Guardians have had an easy time against thieves since release. Engineers, rangers, and revenants all have good options against stealthing thieves. Warriors in the current meta can generally pin them down and take them out through CC chains.

The profession that needs it the most, which has had a hard time against thieves pretty much since release, has its primary mechanic completely shut down by stealth, doesn’t have the ability to respond to thieves by spamming AoE effects like some professions do, and which in the current meta is one of the professions that’s most likely to end up in a 1v1 scenario with a thief… doesn’t have it.

“No decent xy would use…” the thieves that are dangerous are D/P + staff daredevils – they can live without stealth/SA. Those who need stealth aren’t currently dangerous to anyone, what if this turns?

We’ve discussed this tons of times. Thief is built around stealth, some sets can go without it but still every set has got stealth attacks and still the profession is that squishy because they can stealth.
Thus it was rather stupid to bring reveal skills into the game and they need to redesign thief if they want to keep stealth for other classes and reveal skills.
But, since we know anet, we know this will stay in game and we’ll get a few nerfs on top of that.

With the amount of reveals coming on to us, i am just wondering what kind of surprise and change they will bring to the Thief. They must be preparing some sort of mechanic to alleviate this.

The argument of “nobody uses On My Mark anyways” just does not hold. The point is that it’s there, and it’s real.

This is pretty much just for make it similar to Analyze, thats the only reason i see they gave them reveal.

draxynnic.3719:

babazhook.6805:

I really do not have a problem with this reveal. What I DO have a problem with is Professions WITH such skills complaining that stealth is OP and when pointed out they can take such a skill then contradicting themselves when they say they have better skills to use.

Because there are eight other professions. Some of those have access to stealth, but since the PU nerf, none of them really use stealth to the degree that a countermeasure to it is worth a utility slot for fighting them.

Revealed also isn’t a hard counter to thieves. Most revealed skills have a fairly low uptime, and some of them are only available if you can target the thief in the first place (which is not when you really want it). If you land it on a thief that has their resources topped up, they can usually either survive the revealed period using evade frames, or use their mobility to disengage until the revealed wears off. For it to really work, you need to land it on a thief when stealth was their last hope of survival.

Most people aren’t going to cripple themselves against the other eight professions just to be a little bit better against one. In sPvP, you can look at the enemy lineup and decide whether revealed skills are worth taking… but in practise, thieves stack poorly, so if the enemy team has that many thieves they’ve probably already forfeited the advantage to you anyway. Good PvP players will know that and will switch profession if they see such an unbalanced lineup, so if you do switch in a Revealed skill it may turn out redundant anyway. Bad ones… well, a bad thief player is their own counter. In WvW… well, no revealed skill will protect you against the random thief gank from nowhere, and stealth isn’t exactly your biggest concern in zerg fights. So the revealed skills you’re going to see are those that are packaged with something else that’s worth having in its own right, and the Revealed is an added bonus.

To add insult to injury, the professions that have revealed skills are, by and large, those that don’t really need them. Guardians have had an easy time against thieves since release. Engineers, rangers, and revenants all have good options against stealthing thieves. Warriors in the current meta can generally pin them down and take them out through CC chains.

The profession that needs it the most, which has had a hard time against thieves pretty much since release, has its primary mechanic completely shut down by stealth, doesn’t have the ability to respond to thieves by spamming AoE effects like some professions do, and which in the current meta is one of the professions that’s most likely to end up in a 1v1 scenario with a thief… doesn’t have it.

This very much like the “I do not have enough cleanses to clear all conditions” arguement. Reveal should not be about permanent access to a reveal skill when needed. Reveal should not be about applying such a long reveal the thief is sure to die.

It , like most skills is , is most effective when used at the proper time at those very times you yourself mention. The opportune time for that ranger, is when that thief low on health or evades and preparing to stealth and not after he stealths. His BP goes up at range, use your sreveal and follow up with your pew pew. This basic gameplay like learning to read the tells of an enemy skill.

No single skill should be given to a class to make them a hard counter to another class.

In WvW when fighting in smaller groups, only one person really needs a reveal in that group. If no one wishes to make that sacrifice, then they should not complain when the thief gets away. In zergs, as you have said it really does not matter.

You have a choice to make when you have a reveal skill available , either to one self or in a group. If you decide your build better off with another skill then by definition stealth is not op because you decided to not take a reveal for that other choice. Added to that , I find it relatively easy to load upa reveal if I suddenly find the need for it. That whole “the thief just runs away and resets” thing is an opportune time to shift one skill for a reveal.

babazhook.6805:

This very much like the “I do not have enough cleanses to clear all conditions” arguement. Reveal should not be about permanent access to a reveal skill when needed. Reveal should not be about applying such a long reveal the thief is sure to die.

I agree with you, actually, but you’ve missed my point.

I was responding to your denigrating people who don’t use reveal skills and then complain about thief. My point is not that Reveal should be about “applying such a long reveal the thief is sure to die”, it’s that reveal skills are more of a soft counter than a hard counter to any decent thief player (as they should be), and bringing a skill that gives you a small advantage against one profession is just not worth putting yourself at a disadvantage when fighting against any of the other eight. If it WAS a “thieves just melt if you have this skill”, then maybe it’d be worth taking… but that’s not the case, nor should it be.

Unless you’re in a position where that profession is the profession that gives you trouble and you have a large chance of having that matchup – and, as I mentioned, mesmers (who can’t generate illusions when 1v1ing a stealthed thief, and therefore can’t use their mechanic, don’t have the ability to spam AoEs in hope of catching a stealthed thief that way, and are one of the professions that commonly ends up doing a thief’s job when there isn’t a thief on the team to do it and thus has a good chance of ending up 1v1 against the enemy thief) don’t have a reveal skill.

The reason you see rangers using “Sic ’Em” is that 40% extra damage and move speed on their pet is something quite worth taking even if they don’t face thieves, especially for tankier druid builds where the pet is a larger component of their damage.

You probably don’t need to fear warriors bringing On My Mark! because good warrior players probably realise they have plenty of tools for dealing with a thief without it, so why give up a skill that’s useful against all comers (including thieves) purely to deal with thieves? Considering what they’d have to give up, I’m not even convinced taking On My Mark! would even make them stronger against thieves. Similar comments apply to guardians. Revs have Reveal locked into Legendary Dragon Stance, and when an engineer takes it you can bet they’re doing it for Stealth Gyro, not for the reveal.

So, to reiterate my point: A soft counter to thieves isn’t worth taking if it’s going to put you at a disadvantage against other professions, unless thieves are a profession you have trouble with – and the profession that’s had the most trouble with thieves since release doesn’t have it.

If I had a reveal skill on mesmer, I would probably take it. The other professions I play in PvP? Either don’t have it, are strong enough against thieves anyway that they don’t need it, or both.

(Now, if you’re reading between the lines, you’ll note that I’m implicitly saying that guardian and warrior players shouldn’t be complaining about thieves. You may also be thinking ‘well, it it’s not worth taking, what’s the point of having it in the game anyway’ – to which the answer is having it means that if the meta does shift to one that is dominated by stealthing thieves, there is a counter to it. There’s also WvW considerations, as you note: as I said, though, if you’re roaming on your own then reveal can’t protect you against the stealth thief gank from nowhere, and if you’re in a group, it’s easier to have a couple of people with reveal skills as designated thief-catchers than it is in an sPvP scenario.)

well the reveal on warrior is not that big issue he has to have you on sight and target you doesn’t work if you are already stealth, i personally tried with my warrior in wvw on a ghost theif,i couldn’t reveal him so actually works bad. and it’s on 30s cd,most of the warrior will not use it since take off a stance that keeps you alive.
the shout build is so toned down that is not good anymore

My view on revealing stealth is that it shouldn’t be something you can just instantly bring that is effortless without any kind of tactics to just counter the act of stealthing. Then go take a loot at our non d/p weapon setups like d/d, s/d, and staff. The ones with offhand dagger have stealth ability but its not easily accessible and then staff you can stealth with it but with comparing other classes and their options the thief has to do a lot of sacrificing in order to do it which makes it not viable.

I’ll give one example of when they add in a reveal like that they should also add in an option that doesn’t make d/p the automatic go to setup for stealth. This ones a no brainer dancing dagger it received a damage buff in the last balance pass but its still never going to be used unless someone really really likes the sound it makes and likes to die without doing anything except annoying someone to death with cripple. Then there are all those skills that are there that require you to just be using one weapon which you are never going to see anyone use.

So don’t know if anet will ever read this or not but I’m not saying giving those reveals is a bad thing but a good thing to do would be a polishing of all these abilities that are agreeable by vast numbers of players that they will never use and maybe do something where we have choices on what skills we have on weapons to where if you wanna use weapons as an acrobatic nature fine. If say you wanted to have decent access to stealth you can do that too. It just doesn’t sound viable to keep giving our reveals and then buffing skills that aren’t used and only one kind of weapon setup to rule over all others basically killing the thief class. One idea I had for dagger/dagger was reinvent that #4 dancing dagger skill as shadow form where it could be a utility stealth that drains initiative at a certain amount per interval basically like gw1 energy system/way revs work with some of their skills this would make both d/d and d/p both be useful but unique in their own ways.

I would not have a problem with the revealed thing, if they had not done the backstab cool down. Like, really? so now it’s harder to land backstab, and on top of that everyone has a way t reveal us?

if you roam at end of the day you have to accept that some build will just hard counter you no reason anet need to balance around 1v1.

@OP: Keep destroying your class? lmao…wtf r u talking about?! XD Who cares if you get revealed? Do you not have like a bajillion teleports and dodges to kite away until the few seconds of reveal go away?! lmao R u telling me that ur such a bad thief that if u got revealed, u’ll just insta-die right away?! bahahahahhahaha

LionChain.7694:

@OP: Keep destroying your class? lmao…wtf r u talking about?! XD Who cares if you get revealed? Do you not have like a bajillion teleports and dodges to kite away until the few seconds of reveal go away?! lmao R u telling me that ur such a bad thief that if u got revealed, u’ll just insta-die right away?! bahahahahhahaha

Granted while I disagreed with the OP, do you have any idea who they are?

Pretty sure they’d straight destroy you in a fight, Mr. “DH needs a buff”.

LionChain.7694:

@OP: Keep destroying your class? lmao…wtf r u talking about?! XD Who cares if you get revealed? Do you not have like a bajillion teleports and dodges to kite away until the few seconds of reveal go away?! lmao R u telling me that ur such a bad thief that if u got revealed, u’ll just insta-die right away?! bahahahahhahaha

That is the problem with reveals on demand – every thief in pvp is forced into dodge spam because alternative builds are stupidly hardcountered. Simply giving reveals like this, especially on low CD killed build diversity for thieves.

Terissimo.6852:

“On My Mark!”: This skill now applies revealed for 4 seconds in addition to vulnerability.
Is this a joke? Why only 4s tho? Should be 6s like sick em. I didnt tested it but im sure we cant even dodge it and its insta cast so there is no counterplay to it, as usual.

3 base dodges, possibly more depending on whether you run Channeled Vigor or Signet of Agility (2 skills that seem pretty common in WvW), or Withdraw. Ports on shortbow (since it seems most people use that as their second weapon), or staff evade skills. Probably running Shadowstep, so there’s that too. Not to mention you also have a pretty low cd block. If you don’t panic and spam dodges, you’ll probably be fine.

Terissimo.6852:

Its definetly well designed, anet. You are keep destroying our class and Im not even surprised.

With all due respect, the addition of reveal to that skill will change mostly nothing. No one is going to run this, unless maybe they’re duelling a thief, in which case refer to my first point. I understanding it seems like Anet is just adding more and more ways for already annoying classes to have an easier time against thief, but like I said, you won’t find warriors running this – I certainly haven’t since the patch hit. Whilst I can’t attest to how many guardians run their reveal, in my experience rangers generally don’t run Sic Em either.

You’re right that it’s definitely well designed though. Anet seem to love taking skills no one uses and adding some random gimmick or buff to them in some weird attempt to make it usable. It’s lazy design that generally fails to make a skill better imo, just like the necro axe buff.

The difference being that I thought Axe on necro was already a solid weapon before the buff – it frankly just needs a little more life force love by putting some on its AA chain and it’d be in a great spot. It’s no PvE master due to its AA, but it’s almost a very good PvP weapon, and an amazing WvW one, as it offers good burst LF gains, lots of utility when paired with the OH options, and non-reflectable ranged damage

I’ll take my 14k GC’s and two boon corrupts + cleanse and run with them :P

But yea, ANet’s profession team only does “low hanging fruit” fixes per the words of either MO or Colin (can’t remember who said it specifically) some years ago. These are often lazy and in many cases are not enough or go too far.

@DeceiverX…i know who the OP is, ive seen her thief gameplay vids, that’s why i was loling so hard when i read this post by her…when i said my comments, it was meant to be ironic…as in, u have to be effin kiddin me if ur saying that u and other experienced thief players cant come up with some kind of way to counter a reveal on a skill that probably wont be used by most wars neway…and it’s just plain silly for the OP to talk like this one buff to a skill means the ‘destruction of her class’ or that it somehow totally negates her skill-level on thief….i mean, if OP wants to talk about ‘having her class destroyed,’ she should try maining a necro lol….just when u think necros cant get rekt ne harder, here comes another dumb nerf brought to u by anet that makes necros an even easier target