Guild Wars 2

The much anticipated Yishis post nerf Thief video. Enjoy!

Nice video.

I run a similar spec, 0/15/30/25/0
I find that the on the scenario you are running, the bonus 10% dmg when endurance is not full (often as we constant dodge) is better than the 10s fury every 45sec, since the gear already provides high crit chance.
I also use a couple more knights armor pieces and berzerker instead of valk. This gives me lower HP but I think the higher toughtness covers that well, since we cleanse conditions so often with stealth.

One nice thing of this build is that you only need to change a few things to make it a good S/P build for pve or soloing supply camps.

Ah, it’s so sad. I switched to Dagger/Pistol a few weeks ago as well since the nerf spoiled the flow of off-hand dagger. Post nerf it’s probably the better spec, but the big plus for me is the fact that the combat doesn’t make you feel like you’re trying to dance with two bricks for feet. It’s got a much better feel to it.

This isn’t how you nerf an ability, Anet. You really ham-fisted it up. Just sayin.

Thanks for posting, Boulderbolg. I always enjoy Yishis’ gameplay and commentary.

thanks Yishis for the next nerf ! black powder/hs nerf here we come !
please, for the love of god, stop making these movies, unless you want to nerf us into oblivion. (pve wise)
if for the troll, i give it 9/10
thanks

Just a perfect example of what I’ve written in the “Best WvW build” thread. D/P is just too easy to play and definitely needs a nerf. Mug, CnD, Backstab combo is totally fine, but I guess ANet won’t realize that. Good luck fighting d/p thieves, they’re a lot harder to kill due to the perma blind + stealth abuse. :|

laquito.5269:

Just a perfect example of what I’ve written in the “Best WvW build” thread. D/P is just too easy to play and definitely needs a nerf. Mug, CnD, Backstab combo is totally fine, but I guess ANet won’t realize that. Good luck fighting d/p thieves, they’re a lot harder to kill due to the perma blind + stealth abuse. :|

So from hardcore

• One shotters
• HS spammers
• Permanent stealth
• Never-ending blinds

and now this.

Want us to kill you naked and with our punches next patch?

Thieves are useless now, I tell you, I tell you! It’s the end for them.

Authority.6145:

So from hardcore

• One shotters
• HS spammers
• Permanent stealth
• Never-ending blinds

and now this.

Want us to kill you naked and with our punches next patch?

Just so you know: I main a thief, mostly in WvW, so I’m most likely not one of these forum warriors from other classes demanding a thief nerf, but this build was, is and will be the cause of our class being nerfed, its just too easy to play and its overpowered. Personally I play a balanced 10 / 30 /30, but I did play this build at one point aswell and its just too powerfull. You keep your enemies nearly perma blinded and you can easily stack up to 6 – 8 seconds stealth by blinding powder + heartseeker and therefore also Might. Not enough, the combo even triggers although heartseeker hits your opponent, whereas other builds instantly get the revealed debuff, d/p doesnt, which is quite silly. Unlike CnD you don’t even need a target to stealth and go for a backstab and while you’re revealed you just use blinding powder to prevent any incoming damage. Your target wants to run away? Fine shadowshot is a 900 range gap closer with only 4 initative and it once again blinds the oppo. If you miss a BP HS combo no problem due to the high initative regen.

Im fine with any other thief build but this is the cheesiest I have ever come across, I don’t quite get why ANet thinks the mug burst is too powerful, when there are builds like these, ever tried fighting a d/p thief as non d/p thief? U’ll get frustrated soon because 50% of your attacks will miss and your oppo can stack stealth as much as he wants to, its almost like perma shadow refuge and you don’t even have to stand still.

This might sound whiny, but thats just my opinion concerning d/p builds. I’ve duelled many people, even more thieves and I’d consider myself just as good as Yishi, but if you’re honest to yourself you’ll realize that this build is overpowered. CnD builds atleast need u to be in close range and watch out for any block or evade skills, but this one is a free stealth & backstab on demand, it might be not as bursty, but in the long run u’ll most likely win any battle due to the on demand stealth and the blinds. I have neither lost nor won any duel against d/p, but from a non d/p perspective its not worth fighting them because the battle will take ages, even if you’re facing a mediocre thief and thats exactly the problem: its too easy to play, unlike CnD builds.

I would like to see what 10 good thieves can do with this build vs 30-40 zerglings.

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see what 10 good thieves can do with this build vs 30-40 zerglings.

40 zerglings will start to kitten one thief and then proceeding to the next thief, and then there were none.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see what 10 good thieves can do with this build vs 30-40 zerglings.

40 zerglings will start to kitten one thief and then proceeding to the next thief, and then there were none.

I dont think so, which thief will they target long enough to kill with all the blind and stealth that is going on?

DanH.5879:

thanks Yishis for the next nerf ! black powder/hs nerf here we come !
please, for the love of god, stop making these movies, unless you want to nerf us into oblivion.
if for the troll, i give it 9/10
thanks

I will post this in the WvW forum. Bye Bye Black power/hs :P.

My build is different but I do agree with what you said. Blinding powder is the best defensive ability we have currently.

My footage looks exactly like this. You can keep Hidden Killer and keep 30CS 30SA 10 Acro.

The acro gives you the mobility and use Patience from CS line to give you init regen.

<3 the black powder to heart seeker.

You can also use a refuge and then keep using BP+HS every once in a while and keep stealth up for a very long time to avoid zergs.

EDIT: Just wanted to add. I didn’t see you using your shortbow much. I use my shortbow for camps and such but when I am roaming I run D/D. CnD→Steal→BS is still a great combo opener or when you are in the middle of a battle. You can BP→HS, wait 4s to unstealth, CND/steal combo. Add in a basi and you can catch some people off guard with it and get a quick down easy.

I liked S/D as my second weaponset when grouping and D/D when soloing. Shortbow for camps/bloodlust stacks vs. wolves.

That guy is an excellent player. I can run the same build as him and my results are not even close.

omg dnt post this yishi! anet will gonna nerf D/P build

brunohstein.9038:

That guy is an excellent player. I can run the same build as him and my results are not even close.

Yea, it requires a lot of practice and thought into playing like this.

You have to be on your toes and like yashis said very aware of your surroundings.

You can’t rely on culling anymore to just stealth and instantly loose agro from a zerg now.

D/P is a required weapon set for a solo roaming thief now. The secondary weaponset is still up in the air for me but D/D works well.

So much stealth. . . .

swinsk.6410:

D/P is a required weapon set for a solo roaming thief now.

Completely disagree with you. S/D works pretty well for me. =)

JakobGW.5730:

swinsk.6410:

D/P is a required weapon set for a solo roaming thief now.

Completely disagree with you. S/D works pretty well for me. =)

You would do better with D/P + S/D than anything else then imo.

Great vid and commentary.

In the first ten minutes of the video, the first 13 seconds is fluff, leaving 9.78 minutes of actual fighting/running. In that period of time, Yishis does the following:

1. BP/HS combo: 93 times (avg. 3 seconds = 4.65 minutes)
2. Hide in Shadows: 13 times (avg. 3 seconds = .65 minutes)
3. Shadow Refuge: 4 times (avg. 12 seconds = .80 minutes)
4. Blinding Powder: 3 times (avg. 3 seconds = .15 minutes)
5. Stolen: 4 times (avg. 3 seconds = .20 minutes)

Total stealth: 6.45 minutes.
Total un-stealth: 3.33 minutes
Percentage of time visible: 34%

Obviously some BP/HS combos don’t last 3 seconds, and some last the entire traited 4 seconds. I took an average of 3 seconds just, well, because it felt appropriate.

Personal opinion: As I’ve posted before, these types of videos are why people cry nerfs for thieves. It’s marketed as an “Outnumbered/Against the Odds” scenario implying that the maker of the video must overcome incredible odds to come out victorious. I’m a thief, and I have to admit that for close to 10 minutes of fighting and only 34% of that time the thief is visible is just plain annoying to other classes. Sure players can AoE, cleave, swing in the general direction of where they think the thief may be, but this isn’t how someone wants to play a game. A person wants to see their attacks land and they want to see the white numbers. I’ve had multiple thieves follow me and my small roaming group by simply using the BP/HS combo a small distance away keeping eyes on us and calling in reinforcements while we can only wait for the fight to come to us, usually in the form of a zerg. Many thieves are taking advantage of the BP/HS combo just like it’s depicted in this video, and many more will.

Another way to think about it is if Yishis had the revealed buff after each one of his stealth moves he would have been revealed for a minimum of 7.8 minutes. (This would, of course, only apply if you couldn’t stack stealth with multiple uses of skills). This type of play style would then, obviously, fail.

I voice no opinions regarding Yishis’s skill or the skill of the players he fights; those opinions are left to the watcher. I would, however, argue that this type of play style is exactly why there is so much thief hate all over these forums. Unfortunately, others will watch the video and copy the same play. I would only encourage new players watching to try something different and come up with a play style that is not what many veteran thieves would consider, myself included, “cheesy.”

yeah, but the thing IS that dungeon bosses do not give a kitten about how much you stay in stealth ! or that you can burst 20k in less 2 seconds

this is where wvw nerfs come to pve

JakobGW.5730:

snip

And thats why one competent mesmer with temporal curtain is always good to have around. GG thief, gg.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see what 10 good thieves can do with this build vs 30-40 zerglings.

40 zerglings will start to kitten one thief and then proceeding to the next thief, and then there were none.

Acctually, No.
10 thieves are in perma-stealth.
They come into zerg unexpected and BOOM, cluster bombs from 10 zerker thives. Half of the victory.

And come on, guys. D/P require no skill? Are you kidding?
It’s #4 is one of the most skill-dependent moves in thief’s arsenal.

I would, however, argue that this type of play style is exactly why there is so much thief hate all over these forums.

Exactly! But isn’t it a part of Thief Community?
To deceive, distract and strike you unguarded?
We all abuse shortbow#5 to be unreachable, don’t we? That’s the same thing. Or you think people don’t hate thives for shortbow#5?
So who cares? We are mean characters in any game.

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see what 10 good thieves can do with this build vs 30-40 zerglings.

No way that can happen. Way too much aoe spam, and CCs.

Yishis is a really really good player, and he’s making this look really easy, so easy in fact that people look at it and go “I can do this too!” Yea… no. Not unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing and what other classes can do to you. And if you are one of those people you can basically run any build you want and be successful.

If thieves get nerfed after videos like this I’d like Yishis to just stop because everyone is going to be screaming THIEVES OPPPPPPPPP until Anet does something drastic. Again.

Cost.6917:

And come on, guys. D/P require no skill? Are you kidding?
It’s #4 is one of the most skill-dependent moves in thief’s arsenal.

This would be a good point if Yishis actually used the ability even one time in the entire video. . . .

I think the point a lot of folks are trying to make is that you don’t even need that skill to be successful with d/p as demonstrated.

Also, I gotta add that I use d/p myself. I use it for spamming heartseeker to get accross the map, black powder for stomps, headshot for interupts, and shadowshot for teleport. Occoasionally I will even use the combo. My problem is not with the weaponset itself, but the fact many thieves are abusing the stealth combo to essentially stay stealthed more than 60% of the time, or even 100% of the time when necessary and on demand.

Cost.6917:

We all abuse shortbow#5 to be unreachable, don’t we? That’s the same thing. Or you think people don’t hate thives for shortbow#5?
So who cares? We are mean characters in any game.

Gosh it seems like I’m arguing with you, but I’m not. Please know that I’m just having a discussion. =)

But, I don’t use shortbow to be unreachable. I do, however, abuse heartseeker with no target for movement. Just like warriors use whirlwind attack with no target; or elementalists use ride the lightning with no target; or mesmers use blink with no target; or rangers use swoop/monarch’s leap with no target; and etc. etc.

Most classes have ways to run/escape/etc. None, however, have the ability like the thief to become invisible for minutes at a time.

JakobGW.5730:

My problem is not with the weaponset itself, but the fact many thieves are abusing the stealth combo to essentially stay stealthed more than 60% of the time, or even 100% of the time when necessary and on demand.

Oh, so the problem is that they are doing nothing but regen their health 60-100% of time? I don’t see it as a problem…

We are kinda scouts, so isn’t it ok?
After all we lack long range.

Cost.6917:

After all we lack long range.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. In my opinion, we have the very best range in the entire game. I can assure you that no other class has the ability to close a gap better than the thief.

Aren’t we talking about WvW here?

Cost.6917:

Aren’t we talking about WvW here?

I thought so. . . .

JakobGW.5730:

Cost.6917:

Aren’t we talking about WvW here?

I thought so. . . .

Walls?

Cost.6917:

Oh, so the problem is that they are doing nothing but regen their health 60-100% of time? I don’t see it as a problem…

Scenario: I fight a warrior. We go toe-to-toe and he’s very skilled. He takes me down to 1/4 of my health while he is at 1/2. I stealth, BP/HS combo near him while I regen health and he doesn’t (I’m too close to him for him to get out of combat and regen health). Several of his friends then arrive. I keep far enough away from the group and move around so that they don’t know where I am except for my BP’s on the ground of which I move away from quickly to avoid cleave/AoE damage. After a few seconds of stealth and full regen, I engage the warrior again while he’s at 1/2 health and I’m full. I beat him with 1/2 health.

Doing nothing is resetting the fight and healing, all with minimal to no risk to the thief while the enemy, no matter how skilled they may be, cannot do the same unless they simply run away. That is the problem.

Yishis does something very similar to this to a mesmer in the video at 14:55.

What I didn’t see people doing against him was interrupting the perma-stealth combo. I would like to point out that a player can force a D/P thief out of stealth by walking into the smoke field, all that happens us that you eat a single heartseeker which is probably minor since a thief stealthing up like that is usually on the ropes. There is already counterplay to the combo.

Maugetarr.6823:

What I didn’t see people doing against him was interrupting the perma-stealth combo. I would like to point out that a player can force a D/P thief out of stealth by walking into the smoke field, all that happens us that you eat a single heartseeker which is probably minor since a thief stealthing up like that is usually on the ropes. There is already counterplay to the combo.

Then you need a little research..

If you get hit by the Heartseeker.. we still get stealthed..

so please .. keep walking in range..

PS: did you also know in the smokefield you cant hit us ?

On the second jump through if you nick something, you become unstealthed. That’s why I mentioned that the perma-stealth playstyle (hs through the same field multiple times) has counterplay.

Maugetarr.6823:

On the second jump through if you nick something, you become unstealthed. That’s why I mentioned that the perma-stealth playstyle (hs through the same field multiple times) has counterplay.

That is assuming every thief uses it like that…

So i would not count that as a counter.. also even if they nick you on the second jump.. you are still blinded and inside the smoke field.

the best d/p counter is a d/p build that is competent enough to use headshot to interrupt HS. GG thief, gg.

iNaddict.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

On the second jump through if you nick something, you become unstealthed. That’s why I mentioned that the perma-stealth playstyle (hs through the same field multiple times) has counterplay.

That is assuming every thief uses it like that…

So i would not count that as a counter.. also even if they nick you on the second jump.. you are still blinded and inside the smoke field.

…..Which is why I specifically mentioned perma-stealth in the original comment. I was trying to point out a system of counterplay to people before our next build is put up on the chopping block because people say it’s unstoppable.

Maugetarr.6823:

…..Which is why I specifically mentioned perma-stealth in the original comment. I was trying to point out a system of counterplay to people before our next build is put up on the chopping block because people say it’s unstoppable.

It’s extremely easy to BP/HS combo three times uninterupted even when outnumbered 10 to 1. This “counterplay” may look good on paper, but fails to actually work in the game.

Eh. I don’t like how Yishi uses the BP+HS stealthing combo so much. It’s a perfectly fine tactic, and it works really well, but it costs 9 initiative minimum, 3 more for every other HS that you use. I usually prefer to use the combo against melee enemies, where I’ll blind them, lay down a bit of damage, and then HS for the stealth. That way, I get to do a little bit of damage while taking little or none, get in a free HS, and, on top of all of that, a neat stealth that works in perfect coordination with the rest of the build.

JakobGW.5730:

Maugetarr.6823:

…..Which is why I specifically mentioned perma-stealth in the original comment. I was trying to point out a system of counterplay to people before our next build is put up on the chopping block because people say it’s unstoppable.

It’s extremely easy to BP/HS combo three times uninterupted even when outnumbered 10 to 1. This “counterplay” may look good on paper, but fails to actually work in the game.

It works in practice too as well as against smokescreen+hs thieves (although it’s harder when they’re using smokescreen). I’ve done it and had it done to me (although I couldn’t kill the thief after I knocked it out due to my 0/15/30/25 build with no backpiece). It may not work every time, but try it out in a prolonged fight.

Sooo many D/P thiefs on wvw last night.

Anyway,
BP field is quite small one, using a 2Hander near it will get the thief inside without geting you blind. Dont go inside the field, stay in the border.
Staying in the border of the BP field will also screw the thiefs HS combo if hes using to get away.

Also, it doesnt work much on group play as any other field will change your combo.

When I play a guardian I like to use the hammer ring and/or the staff wall right on top of the field, with this, I know the thief will be knocked down right there and wasting his ini, or he will be forced to run away. GS pull also works well as it gets stealthed players, and thiefs have NO STABILITY! (unless they stole it from you, but only cond thiefs run that trait)
Using fields (necro marks, ele stun field, etc) over the BP field is a good way to counter that gameplay and force the thief out of his confort zone.

JakobGW.5730:

Obviously some BP/HS combos don’t last 3 seconds, and some last the entire traited 4 seconds. I took an average of 3 seconds just, well, because it felt appropriate.

Just want to point out, that the BP > HS combo doesn’t get benefit from Meld with Shadows and will always be a 3 second stealth.

Taril.8619:

JakobGW.5730:

Obviously some BP/HS combos don’t last 3 seconds, and some last the entire traited 4 seconds. I took an average of 3 seconds just, well, because it felt appropriate.

Just want to point out, that the BP > HS combo doesn’t get benefit from Meld with Shadows and will always be a 3 second stealth.

CnD works with it?

mystafa.6254:

Taril.8619:

JakobGW.5730:

Obviously some BP/HS combos don’t last 3 seconds, and some last the entire traited 4 seconds. I took an average of 3 seconds just, well, because it felt appropriate.

Just want to point out, that the BP > HS combo doesn’t get benefit from Meld with Shadows and will always be a 3 second stealth.

CnD works with it?

Yes, with Meld with Shadows the stealth from Cloak and Dagger will be 4 seconds.

It’s just stealth combos and Shadow Refuge that don’t benefit from this trait (Yet they benefit from all other “On using a skill that stealths you” traits, making this seem like a bug)

I’m pretty sure CnD works with meld with shadows because it’s a direct stealth effect, just like Hide in Shadows or Blinding Powder.

Great video and tutorial. Well played and explained.
I was intrigued watching the vid at work. So i tried the spec with my gear. Which is mostly valk armor rest zerker and allbut one zerker trinkets.

No ascended no divinity. Only 1 knight trinket.
Im sure it was a lot of l2p but ive been using d/p for quite awhile in my normal shadow crit build pretty well. My other thief friend had similar issues. Seemed like lack of any real burst and not quite durable enough. Our crit rates werent high enough and lack toughness and some vit.

Seems like a great build but i wont try again until i get a set of gear more in tune with the build

JakobGW.5730:

In the first ten minutes of the video, the first 13 seconds is fluff, leaving 9.78 minutes of actual fighting/running. In that period of time, Yishis does the following:

1. BP/HS combo: 93 times (avg. 3 seconds = 4.65 minutes)
2. Hide in Shadows: 13 times (avg. 3 seconds = .65 minutes)
3. Shadow Refuge: 4 times (avg. 12 seconds = .80 minutes)
4. Blinding Powder: 3 times (avg. 3 seconds = .15 minutes)
5. Stolen: 4 times (avg. 3 seconds = .20 minutes)

Total stealth: 6.45 minutes.
Total un-stealth: 3.33 minutes
Percentage of time visible: 34%

I voice no opinions regarding Yishis’s skill or the skill of the players he fights; those opinions are left to the watcher. I would, however, argue that this type of play style is exactly why there is so much thief hate all over these forums. Unfortunately, others will watch the video and copy the same play. I would only encourage new players watching to try something different and come up with a play style that is not what many veteran thieves would consider, myself included, “cheesy.”

Thank you, finally someone who thinks the same way as I do. D/P is fairly easy to play and it doesn’t even take a good player to be successfull, because its forgiving to mistakes. This might look cool in the vid, but as soon as you face a d/p stealth abusing thief as non d/p thief you’ll realize why this is cheesy and OP.