Guild Wars 2

Im’ pistol whip spec full berserker. And when I’m fighting monster which regen, in specific effigy boss in cof path 1, I always wonder if I should just switch to dagger dagger. But I kind of don’t want to since I’m not sure if I do good damage with dagger/dagger since I thought dagger is more of a condition damage thing.

What’s people thought on this topic?

Dagger mainhand is the highest damage in the entire game so you know sword is more for aoe.

tom.7468:

Dagger mainhand is the highest damage in the entire game so you know sword is more for aoe.

Actually, this isn’t quite true. Thief’s sword auto combo does more then Dagger’s. dagger just has Backstab and Heartseeker. Additionally, Triple Chop (the 3rd attack in Warrior’s Axe Mainhand chain) actually deals more damage then backstab. I’m not even sure if that’s the strongest melee weapon in the game.

As for the topic at hand. You could try P/D for Sneak Attack too, or if you can aim it well enough, FS on S/D could work. Another good idea is Clusterbomb and Choaking Gas on Shortbow. Combo them and you get Poison, Bleed and Weakness afflicted.

Well the dagger auto attack is faster than the sword’s auto attack…..

Rafahil.2857:

Well the dagger auto attack is faster than the sword’s auto attack…..

It doesn’t change anything.
The significance between the 2 auto’s is actually the poison.
This does 2 things
1) Scales on condition dmg and duration meaningfully.
2) Weakens heals.
The poison means auto attack speaking, Dagger will beat out sword in the case of one enemy. It’s not really attack speed, its the poison ticks.
2) The poison will naturally help you with your issue against regen by reducing it.
Mind you if all you’re trying to use is dagger skills outside of the mainhand you won’t have any poison to help you vs the regen.

Anyways.
Of course if you want you can take Needle trap, Kleptomaniac (Deadly arts trait), Spider poison venom or poison them with the shortbow first if you find the regen is bothering you and you wish to use your sword. Caltrops will also work against it. Or at least presumably the poison works on their heal I can’t recall. If you’re just attacking things 1 on 1 you might want a dagger instead since it excels at 1 on 1 encounters where the sword gives you potent offense for multiple monsters.

laokoko.7403:

Im’ pistol whip spec full berserker. And when I’m fighting monster which regen, in specific effigy boss in cof path 1, I always wonder if I should just switch to dagger dagger. But I kind of don’t want to since I’m not sure if I do good damage with dagger/dagger since I thought dagger is more of a condition damage thing.

What’s people thought on this topic?

D/D is a direct damage set. The bleed on Death Blossom is just a bonus; over the three hits it actually does direct damage, per target hit, that rivals a single <25% Heartseeker on top of evading attacks. It’s just your universal AoE attack.
The only reason condition damage has any use at all on a D/D thief is because the initiative allows you to blindly spam that single attack with the bleeds on it, but it’s not nearly as effective as a direct damage build would be.

Even the Deadly Arts trait line, which includes the cruddy dagger boosting trait, is not actually a condition damage trait line contrary to common misconception. It improves Power and Condition DURATION.
The venoms are all utility conditions, not damage, and benefit from increased duration but get little if any benefit from Condition Damage.

Remember the best offensive against the effigy is poison, something which thieves have the most of. It will reduce his heal potential by 33%. I’ve seen groups who lacked the DPS to kill it suddenly wreck it because poison. It really does make thief pretty valuable able in CoF(aside from the cliche, yet true 3X zerk warrer 2X zerk mesmer)

if I use d/d, do I just spam death blossom and heart seeker when boss is at 25%?

…Pretty much. But you’d only use Death Blossom if there were multiple enemies. I personally wish Heartseeker used a different mechanic, because spamming #2 any time an enemy gets low on health is not remotely fun.

Grimwolf.7163:

laokoko.7403:

Im’ pistol whip spec full berserker. And when I’m fighting monster which regen, in specific effigy boss in cof path 1, I always wonder if I should just switch to dagger dagger. But I kind of don’t want to since I’m not sure if I do good damage with dagger/dagger since I thought dagger is more of a condition damage thing.

What’s people thought on this topic?

D/D is a direct damage set. The bleed on Death Blossom is just a bonus; over the three hits it actually does direct damage, per target hit, that rivals a single <25% Heartseeker on top of evading attacks.

Actually unless you actually have some condition damage deathblossom isn’t going to be anywhere near that amount of damage, even a heartseeker on a full health enemy will do more direct damage than a deathblossom, granted the saving grace is the AoE effect but of course at the cost of a lot more initiative.

For direct damage on a single target with DD your really looking at a combination of dancing daggers (same damage as an above 50% hp heartseeker that bounces), CnD+Backstab and heartseeking, your DPS won’t be that good but the burst will be great.

Dasorine.1964:

For direct damage on a single target with DD your really looking at a combination of dancing daggers (same damage as an above 50% hp heartseeker that bounces), CnD+Backstab and heartseeking, your DPS won’t be that good but the burst will be great

that’s just wrong
look at the tool tip. The damage on this is actually LESS than the 1st autoattack on dagger. Dancing dagger is only used for ranged dps/cripple when the target is running away or when being chased by multiple enemies and trying to get away. The chasing part is much better b/c swapping to sbow and using 3 is much better than using dancing dagger to get away.

randomfightfan.4091:

that’s just wrong
look at the tool tip. The damage on this is actually LESS than the 1st autoattack on dagger.

Using my tooltips with 2307 power:

Heartseeker;
>50% – 846
25-50% – 1269
<25% – 1692

Dagger #1;
Double Strike – 2x 474
Wild Strike – 719
Lotus Strike – 719

Heartseeker not only does more damage than any part of the Dagger #1 chain per hit even at > 50% health it also attacks faster (Dagger #1 full chain takes 2 seconds to complete) as it is less affected by the delay after skills (You can chain it instantly, there’s no small delay after the cast animation before starting a new one)

The only reason HS >50% is not used is because it’s better to save the initiative until <50% where the benefit is much larger.

Taril.8619:

randomfightfan.4091:

that’s just wrong
look at the tool tip. The damage on this is actually LESS than the 1st autoattack on dagger.

Using my tooltips with 2307 power:

Heartseeker;
>50% – 846
25-50% – 1269
<25% – 1692

Dagger #1;
Double Strike – 2x 474
Wild Strike – 719
Lotus Strike – 719

Heartseeker not only does more damage than any part of the Dagger #1 chain per hit even at > 50% health it also attacks faster (Dagger #1 full chain takes 2 seconds to complete) as it is less affected by the delay after skills (You can chain it instantly, there’s no small delay after the cast animation before starting a new one)

The only reason HS >50% is not used is because it’s better to save the initiative until <50% where the benefit is much larger.

Drop a smoke screen. Now hs gives you stealth, sets you up for a free backstab, deals mad damage, and is free if traited for it. If you play it right, 1smoke screen yields 3 backstabs.

You should be doing CnD+BS, AA chain, CnD+BS, AA chain…etc etc until boss reaches 25% hp at which point spam Heartseeker. The poison from Lotus Strike is obviously really strong here. D/D is our best single target damage weapon set.

I think that’s the best use of your damage and initiative.

Taril.8619:

randomfightfan.4091:

that’s just wrong
look at the tool tip. The damage on this is actually LESS than the 1st autoattack on dagger.

Using my tooltips with 2307 power:

Heartseeker;
>50% – 846
25-50% – 1269
<25% – 1692

Dagger #1;
Double Strike – 2x 474
Wild Strike – 719
Lotus Strike – 719

Heartseeker not only does more damage than any part of the Dagger #1 chain per hit even at > 50% health it also attacks faster (Dagger #1 full chain takes 2 seconds to complete) as it is less affected by the delay after skills (You can chain it instantly, there’s no small delay after the cast animation before starting a new one)

The only reason HS >50% is not used is because it’s better to save the initiative until <50% where the benefit is much larger.

And why not to cnd/bs instead of falling into 222222222 train ?

Karolis.4261:

And why not to cnd/bs instead of falling into 222222222 train ?

Of course with D/D using CnD > BS > AA chain would be the best DPS for above 50% health.

I was just replying to the person who was claiming that >50% HS did less damage than the first hit of Auto-attack (When it infact deals nearly double)

Taril.8619:

Karolis.4261:

And why not to cnd/bs instead of falling into 222222222 train ?

Of course with D/D using CnD > BS > AA chain would be the best DPS for above 50% health.

I was just replying to the person who was claiming that >50% HS did less damage than the first hit of Auto-attack (When it infact deals nearly double)

Then you read my response wrong. Said dancing dagger dealt less damage, not hs. If u hadn’t edited my msg in ur reply you probably would have noticed

True against an individual Dancing dagger does half of HS damage per hit, get 2 mobs and you do heartseeker damage to both of them (until they drop below 50% and HS becomes more) against 2 targets its the best source of direct mutliple target damage, against 3 deathblossom is only just below and 4 or more your better off with deathblossom if they are grouped

You realize Death Blossom hits each target 3 times? It does not do 1/3rd the damage of Heartseeker;
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Blossom
201×3 = 603

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heartseeker
672 < 25%

And even with 0 Condition Damage, the Death Blossom adds an additional 1260 over 10 seconds through bleeding.
The only reason Heartseeker is better against single targets is because it costs 2 less initiative, animates faster and deals all the damage instantly.
Heartseeker costs 60% as much initiative, so even if you go by damage-per-initiative Death Blossom still does more than half as much even before bleeding.

Another point worth making is that if you’re fighting someone with > 50% health and can’t use CnD > Backstab for whatever reason, Death Blossom is the best option even against a single target.
If it’s a boss or something like that and dying slowly enough for the bleeds to tick, Death Blossom would be the best option even at > 25%.

thats not three hits of 201 its 201 over three hits, so 67×3

You’re sure? I have to test that again… 201 after 3 hits would be garbage.
Someone should fix the wiki too, because if that’s true then that would be “201 / 3”, not “201 × 3”.

yep, its confusing how they mark it on skills but the number is the total of the 3 hits.

Otherwise stuff like rapidfire would be insane (10x 1320 base)

Unfortunately the wiki posts it how it is in game and you have to dig through the damage page to find the rules on it, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage.

Yeah, you are right. I just tested it. This means I’ve been doing it wrong for some time because of those stupid lying tooltips.

hehe it happens, I know for certain your not the only one who has been doing so

Death Blossom seemed fine before when I thought the bleed was just an added bonus, but the direct damage really is total garbage. Because of the initiative cost plus damage, ignoring the bleed you would need to hit 6 people with it for it to be a better option than Heartseeker < 25%, 5 people < 50%, and 3 people > 50%.
And the bleed won’t reach many ticks anyway unless you’re fighting a boss, at which point there’s no way you’ll be hitting enough multiple targets for it to matter, and you’ll have the rest of your team competing for bleed stacks as well.

It’s a direct damage weapon set; they need to replace that bleed with something useful.

actually its a combination of the two, only heartseeker, backstab and 2 of the autoattack chain are pure direct damage.

None of the thief sets are “pure” direct damage (Sword would be closest as its higher base damages and no split with damage conditions), I’m not sure anyone has one.

Also your calculations aren’t quite right, with a 201 base you need 2 people >50%, 3 people <50% and 4 people <25%.

PLUS your also hitting them all rather than just one target and then a little extra from bleed (which even if you don’t have condition damage could potentially block them removing more important debuffs)

You’re forgetting that Heartseeker only costs 60% as much to use as Death Blossom, allowing you to use it more times for the same cost. Nearly 2 Heartseekers for every Death Blossom.

depends if your looking for burst or dps I guess, it really varies between build and circumstances.

I guess to the guy who wanted to say spamming dancing dagger for vs 2 people is great dps, swap to sbow. Use regular auto attacks and cluster bomb, deals a kittenton more dmg and costs less ini. It also applies those bleed stacks that everyone here seems so fond of.

randomfightfan.4091:

I guess to the guy who wanted to say spamming dancing dagger for vs 2 people is great dps, swap to sbow. Use regular auto attacks and cluster bomb, deals a kittenton more dmg and costs less ini. It also applies those bleed stacks that everyone here seems so fond of.

Ideally yes, but this was talking about D/D set specifically.