Guild Wars 2

BlackDevil.9268:

And that’s an argument for not nerfing consume plasma because…?

It’s funny how the burden of proof is reversed when it comes to thieves nerfs.

Gakeman.5296:

Sandrox.9524:

hmmmmmmm nope,thief is not hard counter to mesmer(as a player who have 2k hours on each one).Mesmer actually is a hard counter to thief.

K, wanna 1vs1 me? I gonna use sword only on thief.

What happens when you lose?

Really this thread.

Sword Thieves are strong against Mesmers, because their attacks cleave, they can restrict their movement, can swap out of aoe at ease, have defenses provided mostly by evades. Meaning; Sword thieves will not waste their burst on clones, but will both destroy the clones and damage the mesmer simultaneously. Most of Mesmer’s defenses come from simply not being there when the attack lands, but a thief can pretty much force them on the spot. Sword #2 out of aoe and immob. Evading negates even aoe and channeling.

Dagger thieves often, however struggle with mesmers. Their damage is single target, they have no real immobilize, most of their defenses base on either stealth or a small puddle of blind. Meaning; the thief can chase the mesmer, but will have no meaningful way of stopping him from escaping. Dagger thieves miss their bursts randomly on mesmer clones. Dagger thieves still get hit by aoe and channeling while in stealth. The mesmer can just troll around the puddle as he will.

Let’s not even go to the Pistol/Condi thieves, since that cheese is only for WvW trytards…

But tl;dr Advantages and disadvantages all depend on specs, not the class. Sure, there are a lot of Sword thieves around, but they’re not really killing you because of Consume Plasma, it’s just a poor match-up for you in terms of soft rock-paper-scissor.

Ritt is win. That is all.

BlackDevil.9268:

style.6173:

BlackDevil.9268:

Ghostwolf.9863:

musu.9205:

But since thief highly counters mesmer

Never noticed this, 4/4/0/0/6 shatter.

And no to your request, 3s stability from a stolen ability from a steal that might not even land and clones usually deal with Aegis. You can also make a build focusing on destroying boons if it bothers you that much.

Maybe you never faced good thieves then, cause overall, thief is the hard-counter to mesmers at the moment.

Might not even land? Either that mesmer can dodge really good, or the thief is just failing to spam f1.

Make a build to counter a skill? Let’s just not do that shall we?
The stability and aegis are both not in the description, while the buffs are already long enough. The moment you think you can counter the thief by using I-wave when he uses his shadow refuge, it wont push him out cause he uses the cheap steal skill. The skill is already strong enough without it, why put both aegis and stability on it too? It’s not like mesmer gets stability from the signet of inspiration. It’s actually funny cause mesmer has almost 0 access to stability.

Wrong. At equal skill levels, a mesmer should win.

Wrong, at equal skill levels a thief should always, but really always win.

Chicago Jack.5647:

The reason why thieves have a better game against mesmers is not because of consume plasma.

And that’s an argument for not nerfing consume plasma because…?

Calsifer.6079:

You do realize that the I wave doesn’t push us out because we dodge inside the refuge right? Not because we have stability.

A good mesmer will never make it so obvious when he will cast it. For example; you can precast it from range, teleport in/near the SR and even the best thief wont expect that to happen. Another thing is casting it from stealth. That’s only for if the thief can’t dodge or isn’t fast enough. Had enough times that in a 3v3 environment I could easily push the thief out cause of too much kitten going on. Skilled or not, dodging I-wave as thief against a mesmer who knows how to do it stealthy is pretty hard. That consume plasma just takes away all that skill in 1 push and granting another 6 boons of at least 10 seconds duration that can easily win you the fight.

so you state that theif using SR fighting against mesmer MUST be kicked out of SR circle, get revealed and get killed eventually, overwise it is disbalance, OP and omg not fair? nice.

When 2 equal skilled players are fighting eachother, than short answer: yes, to the SR part.
I’m not saying the thief should insta-lose the moment he gets knocked out of SR. I’m just saying a thief shouldn’t have such easy access to such powerfull skill. Instead of dodging a combo that requires the mesmer to hold on certain skills to knock out the thief who clearly wasn’t able to put his SR against a wall, he can just klick F1 and pretty much /sit in his SR cause the mesmer can’t do anything to him.
Another thing is, a thief can’t get interrupted easily already. Giving stability to thief makes it impossible to interrupt. Sometimes it’s just crucial to do so, while a thief can just go like ‘’f1 lolol no interrupt for you!’’ and then just goes on with his 2/3 spam till the mesmer is dead.
’’very’’ skillfull, but very effective.

BlackDevil.9268:

style.6173:

BlackDevil.9268:

Ghostwolf.9863:

musu.9205:

But since thief highly counters mesmer

Never noticed this, 4/4/0/0/6 shatter.

And no to your request, 3s stability from a stolen ability from a steal that might not even land and clones usually deal with Aegis. You can also make a build focusing on destroying boons if it bothers you that much.

Maybe you never faced good thieves then, cause overall, thief is the hard-counter to mesmers at the moment.

Might not even land? Either that mesmer can dodge really good, or the thief is just failing to spam f1.

Make a build to counter a skill? Let’s just not do that shall we?
The stability and aegis are both not in the description, while the buffs are already long enough. The moment you think you can counter the thief by using I-wave when he uses his shadow refuge, it wont push him out cause he uses the cheap steal skill. The skill is already strong enough without it, why put both aegis and stability on it too? It’s not like mesmer gets stability from the signet of inspiration. It’s actually funny cause mesmer has almost 0 access to stability.

Wrong. At equal skill levels, a mesmer should win.

Wrong, at equal skill levels a thief should always, but really always win.

Chicago Jack.5647:

The reason why thieves have a better game against mesmers is not because of consume plasma.

And that’s an argument for not nerfing consume plasma because…?

Calsifer.6079:

You do realize that the I wave doesn’t push us out because we dodge inside the refuge right? Not because we have stability.

A good mesmer will never make it so obvious when he will cast it. For example; you can precast it from range, teleport in/near the SR and even the best thief wont expect that to happen. Another thing is casting it from stealth. That’s only for if the thief can’t dodge or isn’t fast enough. Had enough times that in a 3v3 environment I could easily push the thief out cause of too much kitten going on. Skilled or not, dodging I-wave as thief against a mesmer who knows how to do it stealthy is pretty hard. That consume plasma just takes away all that skill in 1 push and granting another 6 boons of at least 10 seconds duration that can easily win you the fight.

It doesn’t matter how stealthy you play your I-wave if I’m dodging inside the refuge as a precaution against cleave and the anticipation of a pull or push at anytime.

EDIT: Also, you can only be so sly when using I-wave. It still has the same big kitten animation. If my reactions are fast enough, I WILL dodge it every time.

musu.9205:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma

I know this forum is so tired of all those thief haters’ post .But since thief highly counters mesmer , removals of aegis or stability won’t affect thief itself that much but will help classes variety in tpvp.

(Anet could nerf it only in tpvp ,so please don’t start "pu mesmer ")

well most thief open with a steal-cnd so any decent player will dodge that and you really crying about a steal that gives us aegis and stab etc every 20+ seconds providing we hit with our steal yet all other classes have access to these boons from skill use and passive.

ANET plz nerf thief its able to block one attack every 20+ seconds with aegis is it every going to end. stop the crying and roll a thief and get to know the class so you can counter not spam the forums begging for a nerf.

I think Consume Plasma is completely fine. But I’m laughing at all of these bad thieves saying Mesmer is bad for losing to them, or Mesmer is hard. I’m not a bad Mesmer, and I can beat Thieves…but in high level play Thief > Mesmer. I could name so many thieves I cannot beat more than twice in ten fights. Sizer, Chozen, Red Levin, Sensotix, Anonymous, Smoozi, Atrastea, A Br A, Ventari. I could probably name more.

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

vincecontix.1264:

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

I like discussion, so please explain how? From my personal experience in a fight between the two (excluding what else they bring to the table) thief should come on top. And a lot of thieves including TCG’s sizer have stated that alone thief poops on Mesmer. I don’t believe they “poop” over mesmer, but I do believe they should win. So tell me what kills you as a thief?

EDIT: Looking at my posts it appears as if I come across as a whiner and someone who loses to every thief I fight, this is not true. But In a 1v1 arena I struggle vs competent thieves more than any other class, so of course i’d like to learn what they dislike about me.

Benjamin.8237:

vincecontix.1264:

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

I like discussion, so please explain how? From my personal experience in a fight between the two (excluding what else they bring to the table) thief should come on top. And a lot of thieves including TCG’s sizer have stated that alone thief poops on Mesmer. I don’t believe they “poop” over mesmer, but I do believe they should win. So tell me what kills you as a thief?

EDIT: Looking at my posts it appears as if I come across as a whiner and someone who loses to every thief I fight, this is not true. But In a 1v1 arena I struggle vs competent thieves more than any other class, so of course i’d like to learn what they dislike about me.

First off are you talking about dueling builds? because a memser built to duel will kill just about anything or viable spvp build? Either way got lots of footage of my mesmer in soloq spvp will upload vids when I get home.

Benjamin.8237:

EDIT: Looking at my posts it appears as if I come across as a whiner and someone who loses to every thief I fight, this is not true. But In a 1v1 arena I struggle vs competent thieves more than any other class, so of course i’d like to learn what they dislike about me.

1. Mesmer’s can continue direct damage in stealth, thief simply cannot. (clones)
2. Mesmer’s are as deceptive as thieves, with several methods of “confusing” the enemy. Most mesmer’s can’t really pull this off unless the enemy is using single target skills, but even while stealthed their clones can hit quite hard.
3. As bursty as a thief. I wouldn’t go as far to say they can out dps a thief although they very well may be able to in pvp, but if you talk about nuking your target a Mesmer can do the job and then some. Both thief and Mesmer have stealth so an ambush is certainly a possibility.
4. Group utility without even trying. Thief can focus fire or poke at people with sb but otherwise they aren’t helping the group all that much, and venom share is sadly not all that great. Of all the power or condi builds I see, Mesmer always has some group utility that helps them too. Maybe this is by accident or maybe on purpose but either way, it works for their set up. SB is our best group set but it still doesn’t bring a whole lot.

Just the few off the top of my head. Wish I had multiple AI smacking my enemy for 3-6k while I /dance in the background.

It appears I have come across incorrectly, as what Ninja has said very well applies in WvW and hotjoins and maybe even duels. Maybe this is where I’m wrong because I’m talking about the one viable tournament build, which I don’t change to duel as I feel I should only practice in the build I always use. In this case I am talking about a Staff and Greatsword shatter build with no stealth. Thief does seem to counter this well as I have no way of locking them down, and I usually credit myself of playing very well when I beat them in this set-up. It might be that I am being too specific when comparing an entire class to one build, but as far as tournaments go for supporting my team and playing my role, phantasm won’t work, PU won’t work, Condition won’t work.

But I also only Play tpvp where normally the thieves I meet are of a much higher skill level to the rest of the game.

vincecontix.1264:

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

Or you just start watching ESL and see every mesmer getting kitten d by any thief that knows what they’re doing. Not these half kitten d idiots who think they can play thief by spamming 2 and 3. Sure, mesmer beats thief with PU dueling builds, but when we look at soloq/tpvp then it’s always thief > mesmer.

Benjamin.8237:

It appears I have come across incorrectly, as what Ninja has said very well applies in WvW and hotjoins and maybe even duels. Maybe this is where I’m wrong because I’m talking about the one viable tournament build, which I don’t change to duel as I feel I should only practice in the build I always use. In this case I am talking about a Staff and Greatsword shatter build with no stealth. Thief does seem to counter this well as I have no way of locking them down, and I usually credit myself of playing very well when I beat them in this set-up. It might be that I am being too specific when comparing an entire class to one build, but as far as tournaments go for supporting my team and playing my role, phantasm won’t work, PU won’t work, Condition won’t work.

But I also only Play tpvp where normally the thieves I meet are of a much higher skill level to the rest of the game.

Usually, but not always. Bad thieves are at every reach of the game. I only compared Mesmer to thief in general, not in any specific game mode but still the group utility a Mesmer can bring to tpvp (ethereal fields + chaos armor is really, really good) while also dishing out damage, etc etc. Basically they bring more to the table than a thief can even outside of stealth. Not all of us thieves enjoy our selfish nature.

BlackDevil.9268:

vincecontix.1264:

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

Or you just start watching ESL and see every mesmer getting kitten d by any thief that knows what they’re doing. Not these half kitten d idiots who think they can play thief by spamming 2 and 3. Sure, mesmer beats thief with PU dueling builds, but when we look at soloq/tpvp then it’s always thief > mesmer.

Soloq was what I was referring to here some videos: This video is mainly and video of me using my mesmer vsing all class but there are a couple of thief fights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8Y7pvQQuA

This one is pre patch of me using one of my SoloQ builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A its also actually easier to kill most thief due to the change to lyssa runes since they can no longer to get the boons b4 you nuke your target. Also when I do use the PU trait dealing with thiefs is just faceroll.

vincecontix.1264:

BlackDevil.9268:

vincecontix.1264:

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

Or you just start watching ESL and see every mesmer getting kitten d by any thief that knows what they’re doing. Not these half kitten d idiots who think they can play thief by spamming 2 and 3. Sure, mesmer beats thief with PU dueling builds, but when we look at soloq/tpvp then it’s always thief > mesmer.

Soloq was what I was referring to here some videos: This video is mainly and video of me using my mesmer vsing all class but there are a couple of thief fights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8Y7pvQQuA

This one is pre patch of me using one of my SoloQ builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A its also actually easier to kill most thief due to the change to lyssa runes since they can no longer to get the boons b4 you nuke your target. Also when I do use the PU trait dealing with thiefs is just faceroll.

You’re playing condi mesmer.
Play a Shatter build then come back here.

Anyone who can honestly tell themselves and swear to others that Mesmers arnt hard countered by thieves and actually for a second believe that it’s vice versa has got their head in the kittenin sand. Theif has been a general counter since kittening launch except it was a bit easier then to fight them bc Mesmer class was broken in multiple ways such as no LoS on phants, shorter CDs etc. still it was a kitten to fight a thief.
Consume plasma has nothing to do with what makes thieves good against them (I find it much more useful in not just mes fights but against other classes so removing aegis and stab will effect gameplay against others more), the general high single and aoe burst potential, easy stealth and evades are allow them to have a field day on their corpse. As a thief, your main goal is to take out Mesmers and of course harrass medium to light classes. The only kitten Mesmer build that can actually be any bit of trouble for a thief is PU condi bullkitten that’s useless in pvp anyways. I’ve played mes since launch as well as thief and I can easily say that when I play thief, I usually don’t think twice about Mesmers, just kitten down their throat and move on bc even if they try to run, they arnt going anywhere regardless. Honestly I have no problem fighting mes regardless of class as Mesmers, especially now are very limited in builds that are somewhat “viable” as everything else sucks. Like I said PU is pure kitten, just random WvW roaming garbage and useless everywhere else.

BlackDevil.9268:

When 2 equal skilled players are fighting eachother, than short answer: yes, to the SR part.
I’m not saying the thief should insta-lose the moment he gets knocked out of SR. I’m just saying a thief shouldn’t have such easy access to such powerfull skill. Instead of dodging a combo that requires the mesmer to hold on certain skills to knock out the thief who clearly wasn’t able to put his SR against a wall, he can just klick F1 and pretty much /sit in his SR cause the mesmer can’t do anything to him.
Another thing is, a thief can’t get interrupted easily already. Giving stability to thief makes it impossible to interrupt. Sometimes it’s just crucial to do so, while a thief can just go like ‘’f1 lolol no interrupt for you!’’ and then just goes on with his 2/3 spam till the mesmer is dead.
’’very’’ skillfull, but very effective.

What attacks do you have that are a threat to a thief in SR? i-wave and mind stab. When you pop refuge you want to stay in refuge at all costs you don’t care about your endurance. If you already have your GS out then maybe you have a chance with your technique but thieves are dodging yes even randomly in SR because by time the stealth is up you have your endurance back.

It seems like your angle is counter play but a thief can’t counter play distortion + anything you decide to do. Somethings just have no or very little counter play. Also not everyone is running a GS on their mesmer. Consume plasma souldn’t be change just because of your preferred play style.

You asume the thief has full endurance and/or initive points. I, however, disagree. Most of the times the moment a thief goes into SR he’s out of any survivability, so he can sit in stealth for a while to reset the fight a bit. It doesnt take 5 seconds for a mesmer to blink to the the SR and use iwave on it. Hell it only takes 0.5 escond to do that. It, however, takes a bit longer than 0.5 seconds to restore his endurance.

Oh, this thread is disgusting. A whole pack of brainless WvWers crying about thief being weaker than mesm. Facepalm. Have you even played mesmer in tpvp?

BlackDevil.9268:

You asume the thief has full endurance and/or initive points. I, however, disagree. Most of the times the moment a thief goes into SR he’s out of any survivability, so he can sit in stealth for a while to reset the fight a bit. It doesnt take 5 seconds for a mesmer to blink to the the SR and use iwave on it. Hell it only takes 0.5 escond to do that. It, however, takes a bit longer than 0.5 seconds to restore his endurance.

I disagree as been stated by others dodging inside of SR is something that thieves do often. With nothing to back this up except my own experience dodging in SR is something I do often even if there is no class nearby that can knock me out of it but it is a better safe then sorry move.

BlackDevil.9268:

You asume the thief has full endurance and/or initive points. I, however, disagree. Most of the times the moment a thief goes into SR he’s out of any survivability, so he can sit in stealth for a while to reset the fight a bit. It doesnt take 5 seconds for a mesmer to blink to the the SR and use iwave on it. Hell it only takes 0.5 escond to do that. It, however, takes a bit longer than 0.5 seconds to restore his endurance.

A thief who always uses SR when he is below 30% hp is a dead and bad thief. Or he is a WvW SA thief
You will never see such things from high level players, as they know the risk they are undertaking when they place a refuge.

Gakeman.5296:

Sandrox.9524:

hmmmmmmm nope,thief is not hard counter to mesmer(as a player who have 2k hours on each one).Mesmer actually is a hard counter to thief.

K, wanna 1vs1 me? I gonna use sword only on thief.

Dude,If I will and I will win it or you will win it,does it prove any point?
Fact is that,in terms of who can counter who,mesmers have many ways to counter thieves while thieves have only mobility.most ppl-like you-playing wvw killing some mesmers and think that this is indicates the “who counter who o`meter”,but it isn’t,take a good shatter mesmer and a non stealth-all-the-time thief and you will see that shatter mesmer have more counters than the thief.
now if you gonna tell me “Why non-stealth-all-the-time” it is ok,but dont complain about PU mesmers beating you

hihey.1075:

vincecontix.1264:

BlackDevil.9268:

vincecontix.1264:

Looks like lots of mesmers need practice mes> thief.

Or you just start watching ESL and see every mesmer getting kitten d by any thief that knows what they’re doing. Not these half kitten d idiots who think they can play thief by spamming 2 and 3. Sure, mesmer beats thief with PU dueling builds, but when we look at soloq/tpvp then it’s always thief > mesmer.

Soloq was what I was referring to here some videos: This video is mainly and video of me using my mesmer vsing all class but there are a couple of thief fights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8Y7pvQQuA

This one is pre patch of me using one of my SoloQ builds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A its also actually easier to kill most thief due to the change to lyssa runes since they can no longer to get the boons b4 you nuke your target. Also when I do use the PU trait dealing with thiefs is just faceroll.

You’re playing condi mesmer.
Play a Shatter build then come back here.

The first video is post patch and I am a hybrid. The builds for soloq and teams can be quite different in soloq its safer to go for a self sufficient build. Shatter builds in soloq aren’t really worth the effort esp when you don’t know if u can rely on your team or not. Using the build in the first bid I was hovering in the 200ish zone in both tpvp and soloq.

I will upload a video using shatter mes if that will make you happy.