Guild Wars 2

Question is: does anyone think s/d is superior to d/d for wvw 1v1 1v2 type scenerios? Or is backstab the bread and butter?

I run an odd setup, s/p for roaming, d/d for killing. I have a lot of p/t/v and to make up for lack of precision I use hidden killer to ensure backstab kills. I use sword to close and then retreat.

I am mostly p/t/v cuz i can’t afford more than one set of exotics, and the ones I have I got from dungeon tokens. If I get a 2nd set it will probably be condition for p/d setup.

I can link you to a guide I wrote for my guildies, for a S/D build, specifically a control tank build for WvW. It’s not a perfect guide, but maybe it’ll have some useful info for you.

here:
http://www.ehmry.com/topic/1419-thieves-looking-for-a-survivable-wvw-build/

S/D is CAPABLE of being miles better than D/D can ever be. The problem is, it’s an extremely high skill cap weapon set so there are few of us who can play it to it’s full potential.

Adaneshade.2409:

S/D is CAPABLE of being miles better than D/D can ever be. The problem is, it’s an extremely high skill cap weapon set so there are few of us who can play it to it’s full potential.

It does have a high skill cap, but even played towards the upper end of that cap I think you underestimate D/D in comparison. I hardly ever use D/D myself, but just because most people run it as “C&D->Steal->Backstab->lulz” doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot of potential. Particularly the use of Heartseeker as a pure movement ability requires a good amount of skill/timing.

I’m pretty decent at twitch, and I already love abusing infiltrator strike. I’m just slow on the theorycraft and I don’t really keep up with the patch notes. Is there a video or more in depth explination of why/how s/d can be miles better? I know with d/d once someone turns and fights I have a very little chance of finishing them off unless they’re in weak gear or pure glass build.

Do I try to land the back tactical most of the time? Or just shrug that and go for blind and if daze lands then yay? Or do I try to figure out how to land that frustrating #3?

I will probably switch to s/d d/d for a while to try this out but I’m really hoping to find a skilled s/d person with a vid or good solid breakdown of how to best utilize the weapon set. I just get the sneaking suspicion that it might help close the gap in my gaming style.

Try to land tactical, in fact you can land it from any position, if from the front just clip your character into theirs and it’ll count as behind them. The key is to try to hang out in stealth and wait on them to cast heal and interrupt that, timing is more important than with most builds.

edit: typo

How to use Infiltrator’s strike without a target? When I’m using it without a target I’m still in the same place.:(

Right, the point is to lay down a shadow return portal to always have a stun break if you get jumped, not for mobility (which you can use it for if you have an enemy targetted). The shadow return states 1200 range but it is in actuality FAR greater, over 2k.

Thanks for that post on sword tactics – like the one where you can move after first swing of flanking strike I did not know. I will have to try that build out sometime, but my first rendition went like this just to see if I can retain the ability to burst damage and still have survivability (please critique constructively if you have some):

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmzc9coLvRooFrvoaxfVacMaqVV
(kept the dodge quickness instead of a 20 pt stealth trait, that might be a mistake but i just love the little extra speed).

Like I said, I don’t have the option to buy new gear atm, I’m pretty poor. But I had already bought zerker gems. I have the invaders amulet, all AC p/t/v armor with 5 soldiers and 1 ice superior runes. Weapons are COF sword/dagger (zerker stats), and AC bow.

Unbuffed I have 17.1k hp, 1418 tough (2482 armor), 3,002 attack, 36% (41 with signet) crit, 69% crit damage.

I’ll have to practice with Flanking Strike. I’ve been trying to land it on Eles and Guardians when they throw up a lot of buffs. I have the practice with landing C&D and trying to get behind people (the bonus of sword being even if you fail you get the same damage and a blind). Wondering if the blind might be more useful on a mesmer.

S/D control build really isn’t made for WvW in my opinion. Sure you can probably stun/dazelock a single person in WvW and finish him/her off after a lot of effort and time but it doesn’t really get you anywhere.

In s/tPvP S/D control build is something completely different, you can actively control a fight in such a way that the opposing team has 1 less person that can do anything.

I’ve played S/D in both WvW and still sometimes use it in s/tPvP both cases because people are often shocked by running into a Thief that does something else than Backstabbing or Blossom spam.

P.s.: Last time I checked Flanking Strike is still a waste of initiative because the pathing is glitchy and buggy.

I was trying flanking strike on dummies and couldn’t land it without being point blank – then realized what Adaneshade.2409 meant by going to their right. You literally have to put them at your 9 oclock if they’re running in a straight line and you can land it as they run because it shoots you into their trajectory? Of course if they are running toward you it would be the opposite. It also seems to just plain be buggier than usual against dummies. In a pve scenario it was much more accurate.

The problem with this is it only works if they are running in a straight line (or if they’re holding basically still you can try to use it point blank). If anyone has any other tricks please let me know. I guess after an infiltrator strike it might be useful, and/or when you have cripple up on them.

Flanking Strike in any PvP setting is extra weird because people tend to have irregular movement patterns. Take into account lag/rendering issues and you have the recipe for disaster with this skill. I know about the trick to make it land but it still doesn’t make it a proper working skill because it still fails quite a lot if you opponent doesn’t move in that straight line.

It works (better) on AI because their movement pattern is regular and almost always in a straight line towards you.

i don’t really have problems vs S/d thieves as an D/D thieves.
The burst is too low – C&D – dodge – Backstab and you win vs S/D thief

@ matea: you can’t, but if you use return after that, you’ll still go back to your original place and get a condition removed.

@ neclon: out of curiosity, why Shadow Protector? The Healing Power of thieves is generally not so high, so you might be able to support your groupmates better if you blind your enemies more often. Cloaked in Shadows would be good for that, though Shadow Arts T1 has other very useful traits as well.

Oh, and regarding your original question: I’d say S/D is better for WvW 1vs1 or 1vs2 scenarios. You don’t have to focus on backstabbing (a rather predictable tactic) to deal good damage, and against two opponents, you can damage them both with your auto-attack if they are close enough to each other. Being able to cripple and immobilize your target(s) is also better than just being able to cripple them, especially if they’re trying to run away.

About FS: yeah, its only reliable use against players seems to be the boon removal with the first hit, and an unpredictable dodge with the second. (If you’re unpredictable, that’s good.) It can be used to damage players, but for that, you’d probably be better off with the auto-attack chain.

Rayya.2591:

i don’t really have problems vs S/d thieves as an D/D thieves.
The burst is too low – C&D – dodge – Backstab and you win vs S/D thief

Yeah, burst is the only way to overcome your 11k hp and paper thin armor rating.

bloodymarx.9052:

@ matea: you can’t, but if you use return after that, you’ll still go back to your original place and get a condition removed.

@ neclon: out of curiosity, why Shadow Protector? The Healing Power of thieves is generally not so high, so you might be able to support your groupmates better if you blind your enemies more often. Cloaked in Shadows would be good for that, though Shadow Arts T1 has other very useful traits as well.

Oh, and regarding your original question: I’d say S/D is better for WvW 1vs1 or 1vs2 scenarios. You don’t have to focus on backstabbing (a rather predictable tactic) to deal good damage, and against two opponents, you can damage them both with your auto-attack if they are close enough to each other. Being able to cripple and immobilize your target(s) is also better than just being able to cripple them, especially if they’re trying to run away.

About FS: yeah, its only reliable use against players seems to be the boon removal with the first hit, and an unpredictable dodge with the second. (If you’re unpredictable, that’s good.) It can be used to damage players, but for that, you’d probably be better off with the auto-attack chain.

The shadow protector is for more selfish reasons than anything, the regeneration stacks with your 30 point regeneration so you have allot more healing. yes, I’m aware it says “allies” but it counts you as an “ally” so you get regen too.

@ Adaneshade: sorry, but the question was for neclon, who doesn’t have Shadow’s Rejuvenation traited in his build. I know that the two traits synergize well, but he only had 15 points in the line, and in my opinion, there are other tier 1 traits worth considering then.

So sorry, this is what I get for posting so early in the AM. I see now that you had directed that to neclon.

Rayya.2591:

i don’t really have problems vs S/d thieves as an D/D thieves.
The burst is too low – C&D – dodge – Backstab and you win vs S/D thief

lol, a typical one trick pony reply. Want a cookie too?

Rayya.2591:

i don’t really have problems vs S/d thieves as an D/D thieves.
The burst is too low – C&D – dodge – Backstab and you win vs S/D thief

You assume that your backstab is vs another glass cannon. That is a mistake as allot of S/D thieves will be running a more tanky build. I myself run with a little over 3100 armor. Your opening volley will do good to half life me, assuming I just let you get it off.

10/30/30

Key.
H/t/p jewelry, p/v/crit damage orbs.
Zerker gear, apply upgrades to increase survivability or offense. Your style.

I run a boon removal on crit on sword, and offhand is water.

Offhand is sb with nullification, or dd with same setup. HiS for heal – stealth, condi removal), refuge, BP, (Your pick, i go scorp wire, ambush trap, or something else…)

Mug, regen ally on stealth, condi removal in stealth, heal in stealth, prec>vit, executioner, 7% crit from side/back.

Learn inf strike/return antics.
Tg/ambush+you=you just blew someones mind and usual chances 1v2 unless coordinated.
Stealth often, save steal for sub 30-40% bursting.

Plenty of flex in gear traits for how you play. Devastating spec.

@ neclon: out of curiosity, why Shadow Protector? The Healing Power of thieves is generally not so high, so you might be able to support your groupmates better if you blind your enemies more often. Cloaked in Shadows would be good for that, though Shadow Arts T1 has other very useful traits as well.

That was an accident – meant to pick infusion of shadow

i don’t really have problems vs S/d thieves as an D/D thieves.
The burst is too low – C&D – dodge – Backstab and you win vs S/D thief

I have yet to get backstabbed to death unless I am just goofing around and swinging my sword out of boredom trying to hit the thief. That said, it seems like the best tactic to fighting a thief, is just to stay stealthed longer, and stay mobile. I had fun running a backstab thief out of ini with shadow return… drop circle, run and dodge straight and when he catches up, return – run other way, rinse repeat. Takes me a fraction of the ini he spends catching up =). If I had the patience and ran with better 1v1 utilities I would stick around for the fight, but it just bores me to 1v1 for 5 minutes.

neclon.4510:

I have yet to get backstabbed to death unless I am just goofing around and swinging my sword out of boredom trying to hit the thief. That said, it seems like the best tactic to fighting a thief, is just to stay stealthed longer, and stay mobile. I had fun running a backstab thief out of ini with shadow return… drop circle, run and dodge straight and when he catches up, return – run other way, rinse repeat. Takes me a fraction of the ini he spends catching up =). If I had the patience and ran with better 1v1 utilities I would stick around for the fight, but it just bores me to 1v1 for 5 minutes.

That might not work so well with the new 50% stealth speed. If the BS thief can stealth off something he can move really fast for almost no ini cost.

Should work fine. Doubtful he’s got a mob directly inbetween us. Even if he did, he spent 3 ini just like a HS and probably didn’t close much more ground.

I did that just as much for fun as anything. 1v1 fights are boring to me. I might do them if I was built around it – like a p/d stealth build. But I’ve played that in pvp and i don’t think I would like it in wvw. sword gives the most mobility on the battlefield by far IMO.

dagger/pistol actually .

Swrd is nice, and quite frankly great against most of those annoying Guard/Ele/Warrior builds out there. Problem is WvW is not a wide wonderful world of 1v1.

WvW is 1vZerg. Dagger gives you the burst required to get a kill in the middle of 50+ enemies. I stopped running a full burst build, and adapted it to a more WvW friendly build. Some of the duelers who run pure sPvP builds out in WvW you can’t kill regardless how much more skill you have than they do…but they aren’t taking on as many players as I do

Well unless they are Ele’s……those kitteners need a nerf.

Correct, sword doesn’t have the burst of dagger, so why try to build around that, build yourself to take a hit and you can just tank away in the middle of the zerg and still get your kill :-P

Jinks.2057:

Swrd is nice, and quite frankly great against most of those annoying Guard/Ele/Warrior builds out there. Problem is WvW is not a wide wonderful world of 1v1.

WvW is 1vZerg. Dagger gives you the burst required to get a kill in the middle of 50+ enemies. I stopped running a full burst build, and adapted it to a more WvW friendly build. Some of the duelers who run pure sPvP builds out in WvW you can’t kill regardless how much more skill you have than they do…but they aren’t taking on as many players as I do

Well unless they are Ele’s……those kitteners need a nerf.

The eles are extremely weak, barely do any damage…. If they can do damage, you can easily kill them fast.
They do not need a nerf, maybe you need a buff. Anet will not give you that, so you need to learn.

Imo u need precision for sd so u crit on as many hits as possible… Im. Actually starting to love flanking strike.. With enough practice u can use it when your enemy is off to your right and flanking strike leads u right to them.. This is great when they are trying to move out of melee range… Not sure if sd is better than dd but alot more fun imo

I’d say D/D.
Sword is sustained semi-aoe damage, you already have a shortbow to do that.
Maybe the control skills are nice for duels, but you can kill a lot players with D/D without having to use any CC.