Guild Wars 2

many thieves out there give us bad names. im talking about group play.

there are many dos/donts of team play. make sure your build is appropriate for team play when u are doing a guild run, dungeon, or wvw and tpvp.

for instance. d/d is not good for fractals and dungeons. if u wanna slip them on for a boss sure thats cool. dont stack with a group on a corner/pill are start heartseekering etc. we thieves have enough of a hard time getting groups without this happening. a small part of this problem lies on anet for how they build us and mostly the players for choosing silly builds that dont help.

most important of all:

if a group says Exp/PRO and zerk only lvl 80s full gear ping SPEED run etc etc. . . dont lie or fake or say whatever ill do what i want. its rude to the group makers. ty.

Travlane.5948:

many thieves out there give us bad names. im talking about group play.

there are many dos/donts of team play. make sure your build is appropriate for team play when u are doing a guild run, dungeon, or wvw and tpvp.

for instance. d/d is not good for fractals and dungeons. if u wanna slip them on for a boss sure thats cool. dont stack with a group on a corner/pill are start heartseekering etc. we thieves have enough of a hard time getting groups without this happening. a small part of this problem lies on anet for how they build us and mostly the players for choosing silly builds that dont help.

most important of all:

if a group says Exp/PRO and zerk only lvl 80s full gear ping SPEED run etc etc. . . dont lie or fake or say whatever ill do what i want. its rude to the group makers. ty.

d/d is actually pretty good on some bosses, like bloomhunger for instance or entire cof p1/p2/p3

i have yet to see a thief spamming heartseeker when pulled a mob to the corner

latest problem is not thief issue, but player mentality

D/D is actually more useful now that we can spam AOE blind. ;/

Cynz.9437:

Travlane.5948:

many thieves out there give us bad names. im talking about group play.

there are many dos/donts of team play. make sure your build is appropriate for team play when u are doing a guild run, dungeon, or wvw and tpvp.

for instance. d/d is not good for fractals and dungeons. if u wanna slip them on for a boss sure thats cool. dont stack with a group on a corner/pill are start heartseekering etc. we thieves have enough of a hard time getting groups without this happening. a small part of this problem lies on anet for how they build us and mostly the players for choosing silly builds that dont help.

most important of all:

if a group says Exp/PRO and zerk only lvl 80s full gear ping SPEED run etc etc. . . dont lie or fake or say whatever ill do what i want. its rude to the group makers. ty.

d/d is actually pretty good on some bosses, like bloomhunger for instance or entire cof p1/p2/p3

i have yet to see a thief spamming heartseeker when pulled a mob to the corner

latest problem is not thief issue, but player mentality

:) plz read or re read.

i said d/d is bad in dungeons. unless u wanna whip it out for bosses which is ok.

i said dont give thieves a bad name. this means that its the player not the class.

:P

I don’t understand why D/D is “bad” in dungeons.

I don’t recall ever not killing a trash mob in more than two hits, or needing that spike for elites.

I don’t recall ever fighting in a party where I haven’t definitively dealt the most damage or downed overly-frequently (aside from other thieves)

I think you’re mistaking D/D with heartspam noobs, which also includes D/P. In which case you should simply give people real advice and tell them not to bother with HS spamming if the mob is over 25% health.

Actually, real advice is to tell people never to HS spam for DPS. You can achieve better numbers with other weapon sets and different builds, or simply just autoing from behind maximizing stabs, and conserving initiative is critical for survival, seeing as one should require an instant fight reset (stealth) if they’re actually doing real damage to the point where they are the top damage dealer in the party, thus increasing aggro threat.

The only support thief I know is venomshare or x/d blind spam. Otherwise, you’re not doing much support work. To declare D/D as not being useful for a party is saying anyone not building support isn’t being useful. Frankly, I think the ability to clear non-elite trash within one second, and supplying over 40% of the overall damage dealt to a given boss alone is quite beneficial for a lot of groups, especially when dungeoning, for so many people demand speed runs.

I think you’re blaming a weapon set as an excuse for either being called useless as d/d by some other people, or seeing a bad d/d thief. I’ve never been declined a party because someone assumed I would HS spam trash mobs lol. The only time I’ve been denied was joining/filling AC when there was no ele.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t understand why D/D is “bad” in dungeons.

I don’t recall ever not killing a trash mob in more than two hits, or needing that spike for elites.

I don’t recall ever fighting in a party where I haven’t definitively dealt the most damage or downed overly-frequently (aside from other thieves)

I think you’re mistaking D/D with heartspam noobs, which also includes D/P. In which case you should simply give people real advice and tell them not to bother with HS spamming if the mob is over 25% health.

Actually, real advice is to tell people never to HS spam for DPS. You can achieve better numbers with other weapon sets and different builds, or simply just autoing from behind maximizing stabs, and conserving initiative is critical for survival, seeing as one should require an instant fight reset (stealth) if they’re actually doing real damage to the point where they are the top damage dealer in the party, thus increasing aggro threat.

The only support thief I know is venomshare or x/d blind spam. Otherwise, you’re not doing much support work. To declare D/D as not being useful for a party is saying anyone not building support isn’t being useful. Frankly, I think the ability to clear non-elite trash within one second, and supplying over 40% of the overall damage dealt to a given boss alone is quite beneficial for a lot of groups, especially when dungeoning, for so many people demand speed runs.

I think you’re blaming a weapon set as an excuse for either being called useless as d/d by some other people, or seeing a bad d/d thief. I’ve never been declined a party because someone assumed I would HS spam trash mobs lol. The only time I’ve been denied was joining/filling AC when there was no ele.

1) dagger maxes out around 6500 in a dungeon with backstab. sword does 6-12k to ALL enemies. with its swing.

2) dagger has no defensive utility. pistol has blackpowder shot and sword has a long evade.

3)dagger has no way of keeping you alive with a nice heal when attacking like sword or pistol canpaired with SOM.

4) when a thief uses dagger in a stack and a bunch of enemies come closing in…. its basically a 4 man team and the thief does about 2% of the total group dmg rather than its share around 20%+.

its pretty obvious why its bad. and yes its ok to bring out d/d for solo bosses. thats never an issue.

D/D is fine.

Give me the Thief playing a style that they are familiar with, rather than someone mashing their way through some spec that’s alien to them.

Travlane.5948:

1) dagger maxes out around 6500 in a dungeon with backstab. sword does 6-12k to ALL enemies. with its swing.

2) dagger has no defensive utility. pistol has blackpowder shot and sword has a long evade.

3)dagger has no way of keeping you alive with a nice heal when attacking like sword or pistol canpaired with SOM.

4) when a thief uses dagger in a stack and a bunch of enemies come closing in…. its basically a 4 man team and the thief does about 2% of the total group dmg rather than its share around 20%+.

its pretty obvious why its bad. and yes its ok to bring out d/d for solo bosses. thats never an issue.

I don’t particularly agree on a few points you’ve made.

Dagger Backstabs can go as high as 15k if you’re full Zerker spec’ed and you get the perfect storm of might/vuln. Throw in a 7k C&D crit and that’s a lot of damage — especially especially repeated every 3 seconds indefinitely. I have no idea where this “2% of the groups damage” idea comes from. I would wager if there was some sort of DPS meter — in most situations D/D thieves would be close to the top.

I don’t have any hard numbers on sword, but I know the last hit in the chain can go up to 6 or 7k (maybe higher) if you’re spec’d properly and also get proper might/vuln. So it does do decent damage, but D/D doesn’t just out-do it in single target DPS — it demolishes it in single target DPS. Also note-worthy, is the full auto-attack chain for Dagger takes less time to complete than the Sword chain.

It certainly has its merits, and you definitely bring up a good point with the cleave. My personal preference is much more for D/D for single target DPS and SB for AoE damage though. The cleave requires mobs to be somewhat close to eachother and has a 3 target max where SB has a 5 target max (with clusterbomb) and a bigger AoE range. I would argue too that clusterbomb spam provides more DPS than the sword auto — it’s not sustainable, but most stuff dies by the time you run out of initiative anyways, so it’s almost always a non-issue.

You also mention there’s no ability that adds to your survivability. I personally find that this is just blatantly false. Well timed C&D’s to drop aggro or to chain stealth off of mobs helps a lot. Wild strike — the second strike in Dagger’s chain — adds 10 endurance. Might not seem like much but that 10 endurance makes a huge difference if you know the right time to dodge as you’re really able to keep your endurance up. Also — if you’re really good with timing, Death Blossom can be used as an emergency evade.

So the way I see it — SB is superior for AoE, and D/D is very superior for single target DPS — so if you’re going for the best DPS / fastest clears, D/D and SB are the way to go. Again, I don’t have numbers on this — this is just my opinion and the logic behind it.

I used S/D at launch for the longest time with a daze/AoE blind spam build and it was a lot of fun. I even switched to a more DPS-ey S/D build. Once I made the switch to D/D — I realized how significantly faster everything died, both in the groups I was in and in solo and I just couldn’t resist. And please don’t say I made the switch because I was doing S/D wrong or something like that. These discussions around balance and meta can get heated sometimes and that’s not my intent — and replies like that are simply not constructive.

At any rate — that’s my take on it.

Ok, 2 things -

1) D/D is what thiefs get into their hands on every wallpaper with a reason: It looks awesome and is what thiefs are supposed to love. I totally agree that d/d isn’t made for any situation and in dungeons I get why s/p is better but I’ll try to go d/d to trash some mobs notheless with them.

2) Why in all of gods name are you so worried for some stupid reputation? It’s a game for christ’s sake and if someone doesn’t want you in his/her party bc. you play a certain class or are just new to the game, you don’t wanna be in that kitten h ole’s party anyways. Thanks to LFG system there is no way you won’t find a more “aged” party in which players respect each other and play for fun rather than for some stupid videogame-reputation
Do you know what all this “OMG POINTS GRIND!”-b.kitten has brought us? Go to this winter snowball contest, be on the loosing side after 1 round and have a long hard look on how many idiots are quitting the game before it has even begun. That’s what I call a problem: People taking a v.game too hard for their own good. It ruins the fun for everyone.

Chers

i’m actualling doing everything with D/D.. never whip, and just died to ress some wars glass cannon god mode on.. i did 75% of dungeons pathes, and 22 lvls of fractal.. donno how will be the 49th but, for now, i don t find any problem.

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

25 sa… and when u cannot stay at melee ranged, u have always ur lovely sb

I’ve seen Backstabs higher than 30k in CoF. D/D is superior for single target if you are able to get behind the target.

How are yall coming up with such ridiculously low backstab numbers? It can hit for over 40k -.-

Swimfan.8014:

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

No when in organized party play the might get stacked for you essentially though we can easily contribute with a shortbow. What i mean was when you get 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability our DPS spikes with A DD build. The thing to remember is that in group play you are a group. getting supported with might stacks pushes our dps and the parties clear time. You do not need to stack it yourself you just need a competent group to do it for you.

Mixchimmer.7230:

Travlane.5948:

its pretty obvious why its bad. and yes its ok to bring out d/d for solo bosses. thats never an issue.

I don’t particularly agree on a few points you’ve made.

Dagger Backstabs can go as high as 15k if you’re full Zerker spec’ed and you get the perfect storm of might/vuln. Throw in a 7k C&D crit and that’s a lot of damage — especially especially repeated every 3 seconds indefinitely. I have no idea where this “2% of the groups damage” idea comes from. I would wager if there was some sort of DPS meter — in most situations D/D thieves would be close to the top.

I don’t have any hard numbers on sword, but I know the last hit in the chain can go up to 6 or 7k (maybe higher) if you’re spec’d properly and also get proper might/vuln. So it does do decent damage, but D/D doesn’t just out-do it in single target DPS — it demolishes it in single target DPS. Also note-worthy, is the full auto-attack chain for Dagger takes less time to complete than the Sword chain.

It certainly has its merits, and you definitely bring up a good point with the cleave. My personal preference is much more for D/D for single target DPS and SB for AoE damage though. The cleave requires mobs to be somewhat close to eachother and has a 3 target max where SB has a 5 target max (with clusterbomb) and a bigger AoE range. I would argue too that clusterbomb spam provides more DPS than the sword auto — it’s not sustainable, but most stuff dies by the time you run out of initiative anyways, so it’s almost always a non-issue.

You also mention there’s no ability that adds to your survivability. I personally find that this is just blatantly false. Well timed C&D’s to drop aggro or to chain stealth off of mobs helps a lot. Wild strike — the second strike in Dagger’s chain — adds 10 endurance. Might not seem like much but that 10 endurance makes a huge difference if you know the right time to dodge as you’re really able to keep your endurance up. Also — if you’re really good with timing, Death Blossom can be used as an emergency evade.

So the way I see it — SB is superior for AoE, and D/D is very superior for single target DPS — so if you’re going for the best DPS / fastest clears, D/D and SB are the way to go. Again, I don’t have numbers on this — this is just my opinion and the logic behind it.

I used S/D at launch for the longest time with a daze/AoE blind spam build and it was a lot of fun. I even switched to a more DPS-ey S/D build. Once I made the switch to D/D — I realized how significantly faster everything died, both in the groups I was in and in solo and I just couldn’t resist. And please don’t say I made the switch because I was doing S/D wrong or something like that. These discussions around balance and meta can get heated sometimes and that’s not my intent — and replies like that are simply not constructive.

At any rate — that’s my take on it.

only gonna respond with 3 thigns here.

sword pistol =

1) long evade
2) condi removal
3) best defense with AOE perma blind
4) 1 swing of sword = more than any backstab can do ( multiple enemies etc)
5) stuns 2 diff skills
6)immobs target + weakness + blinds + cripples + daze (tactical strike)
7) burst skill 6-12k easy dpeending on armor/build

Dagger Dagger = (ps nobody runs full zerk with this…10.8k hp is death with no def)

1) no defense
2) adds bleeds + poison + cripple + vulnerability
3) 5-6500 backstabs and almsot same with HS if under 25% hp. ONE TARGET.

aside from the obvious lopsided abilitys in the pros list above….. cons can be done but nto important yet. d/d cannot sit there in a stack and do dmg. it has to dodge and heal and reset and ect etc etc. s/p sits in there and just digsin and keeps dmging. its uncommon to slightyly occaisonal that they have to back out and heal. the sword set will sit there and keep dmging where the dagger needs breaks every few secs.

single target dmg goes to dagger. total dmg goes to sword. so if ur not on a boss….in a dungeon its not a good idea to run dagger. i mean if ur just a casual party lolligagging thru the path then yeah run whatever. if its organized and expreienced and lvl 80s ….then u should act like it. MOST groups that run pro/speed/experienced/zerk would not like to see dagger thieves as main hand. offhand its ok but then again bow is best offhand in my opinion but thats another thing.

either way the true point is do whats best for the group. dont just say…seeing a big number on ONE target looks cool even tho its not really productive. so many groups say “no thieves plz”. its horrendous.

half the problem is the way most ofthem play. the other half is anet …the way they set us up.

TheGuy.3568:

Swimfan.8014:

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

No when in organized party play the might get stacked for you essentially though we can easily contribute with a shortbow. What i mean was when you get 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability our DPS spikes with A DD build. The thing to remember is that in group play you are a group. getting supported with might stacks pushes our dps and the parties clear time. You do not need to stack it yourself you just need a competent group to do it for you.

d/d entire build will never ever outdmg a s/p build unless its a boss. period. auto attack only on sword beats entire d/d build. :P

thief BS is 5-6500 on average. can go higher maybe 8k if u have a decent d/d build /armor . if u are any higher ur gonna die…alot. even if its 10-12k its stillno comparison. even with 6k HS .

thief sword attack is like 2800 2800 4800 and repeats. so in a stack in a dungeon it goes 8400 8400 14400. even if you HS 3x in the same amount of time…u would be nowhere close to the dmg. 31,200 dmg from sword in 3 seconds. that would be 3 heartseekers at 10,400 dmg each. and less of a chance for rally revive.

even if u dont count multiple targets. single target dmg is only a bit more on d/d.

then u consider defense and utility for party…dagger brings nothing. its a boss weapon and farming weapon only when ur solo.

Clumsy.6257:

How are yall coming up with such ridiculously low backstab numbers? It can hit for over 40k -.-

with ambient creature.

or when target is naked with 25 stacks of vulnerability and u packing 25 bloodlust and 25 might with a signet build while using 10% night sigil and 30 30 0 0 10 setup and scholar runes etc etc so on and so forth.

i can PW for 40k too if u count perfect conditions or noob targets.

I dont care about any discussion going on here, cause there are endless threads about it so i just hope everyone agrees that D/D rotation (Backstab hiting the back) has higher single target dps than S/P under the same circumstances.

Cya have a good one

Travlane.5948:

TheGuy.3568:

Swimfan.8014:

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

No when in organized party play the might get stacked for you essentially though we can easily contribute with a shortbow. What i mean was when you get 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability our DPS spikes with A DD build. The thing to remember is that in group play you are a group. getting supported with might stacks pushes our dps and the parties clear time. You do not need to stack it yourself you just need a competent group to do it for you.

d/d entire build will never ever outdmg a s/p build unless its a boss. period. auto attack only on sword beats entire d/d build. :P

thief BS is 5-6500 on average. can go higher maybe 8k if u have a decent d/d build /armor . if u are any higher ur gonna die…alot. even if its 10-12k its stillno comparison. even with 6k HS .

thief sword attack is like 2800 2800 4800 and repeats. so in a stack in a dungeon it goes 8400 8400 14400. even if you HS 3x in the same amount of time…u would be nowhere close to the dmg. 31,200 dmg from sword in 3 seconds. that would be 3 heartseekers at 10,400 dmg each. and less of a chance for rally revive.

even if u dont count multiple targets. single target dmg is only a bit more on d/d.

then u consider defense and utility for party…dagger brings nothing. its a boss weapon and farming weapon only when ur solo.

LTR

TheGuy.3568:
The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

S/P is good when you are stacking in a corner to kill trash. You get the auto cleave, get to put all your initiative into black powder field; it’s a totally stationary set that cleaves, just what you want for that.

When there’s a single champion or legendary mob, blind is no longer valuable and the cleave doesn’t do anything, so dagger damage dominates; D/D is the highest possible DPS for burning down the giant bags of HP.

Short Bow dominates against foes that are reasonably low HP and not tightly stacked, as Cluster Bomb spam deals more damage than sword autos over a wider area to more targets (but starts to suck when you’re reduced to autoattacks).

TheGuy.3568:

Travlane.5948:

TheGuy.3568:

Swimfan.8014:

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

No when in organized party play the might get stacked for you essentially though we can easily contribute with a shortbow. What i mean was when you get 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability our DPS spikes with A DD build. The thing to remember is that in group play you are a group. getting supported with might stacks pushes our dps and the parties clear time. You do not need to stack it yourself you just need a competent group to do it for you.

d/d entire build will never ever outdmg a s/p build unless its a boss. period. auto attack only on sword beats entire d/d build. :P

thief BS is 5-6500 on average. can go higher maybe 8k if u have a decent d/d build /armor . if u are any higher ur gonna die…alot. even if its 10-12k its stillno comparison. even with 6k HS .

thief sword attack is like 2800 2800 4800 and repeats. so in a stack in a dungeon it goes 8400 8400 14400. even if you HS 3x in the same amount of time…u would be nowhere close to the dmg. 31,200 dmg from sword in 3 seconds. that would be 3 heartseekers at 10,400 dmg each. and less of a chance for rally revive.

even if u dont count multiple targets. single target dmg is only a bit more on d/d.

then u consider defense and utility for party…dagger brings nothing. its a boss weapon and farming weapon only when ur solo.

LTR

TheGuy.3568:
The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

most of dungeons u are facing multiple enemies. and they are usually clumped up. and yes i thought i read IS good but it says ISNT good. i misread it.

99% of dungeons is "trash"mobs. there are only usually 2-3 bosses and semi bosses in each path/map.

d/d is a single target set. rarely do you fight single targets. the dmg is only about 30% of the problem, even as big of a gap as there is from sword over dagger….. its utility that it brings to group too. dagger brings none.

the whole point of this thread was to make thieves bring appropriate weaponsets and builds to missions, dungeons, fractals, zergs, wvw, tpvp, spvp and etc etc. we are so pidgeonholed that when we dont have much wiggle room and when we dont produce like other classes we get branded. I, and WE for that matter, am/are sick of seeing “no thieves” groups and “heavies only” which usually means non thief/ranger more often than not. in reality a good thief (usually 1 atleast) makes a group run faster and smoother in most dungeons as you can skip trash mobs and perma blind the harder annoying types…or scorp pulling…. or soloing hard parts and etc. be that as it may thieves are usually shunned from high lvl / functioning groups.

Please. The people who kick Thieves out of their parties, are probably not the same people who will understand the nuances of Thief damage. You’re ranting at the wrong people for the wrong reason.

lol love it u can only back stab a boss for 6k?? hahaha I get 15 on full valk gear and no stacks of blood lust

Interceptor.2653:

Please. The people who kick Thieves out of their parties, are probably not the same people who will understand the nuances of Thief damage. You’re ranting at the wrong people for the wrong reason.

i said half the reason is bad builds…the other half is anet. is that not appropriate? i think it is.

and you are right about other people not understanding. but when they see…

thief downed thief downed thief downed

or

we went with 2 thieves in this speed run rather than 2 warriors and its taking somuch longer…i dont get it. must be the thieves.

generally they are right about these situation. d/d has no survival and only good dmg when group is on a boss. im not saying not bring it…all im saying is have a stack weapon ready too.

Spyder.9713:

lol love it u can only back stab a boss for 6k?? hahaha I get 15 on full valk gear and no stacks of blood lust

actually i have a video of backstabbing for over 62k on a warrior.

anyway since we are done bragging and chest thumping…plz re read. i said the average backstab is around 6k. that means NOT running 25 30 0 0 15 bc its not really goign to survive in many dungeons. see thats the typical thinking im talking about in bad thieves. ooh ugh ahghooogah! me hit big number. rawrgruh! lol cmon its about total dmg and sustained dmg at same time. cant do that with d/d. set up stealth… backstab for 10k 6k or 12k whatever….then try again in 5-7 seconds “if” u havent been using init for anyting other than CND BS CND BS. you are not helping a group running a dungeon fractal etc going d/d. you can be replaced by a ranger that would outproduced d/d just with spirits alone. production = helping the group thru dmg, healing, buffs, conditions, skip trash, etc etc. the only thing d/d can do is dmg. period. cant even sustain hiself.

anyway my OP wasnt about dagger vs sword. its about brining appropriate builds/gear for each need. we are so fragile that we need to bring what is exactly correct or it really shows. if a guardian brings clerics or brings soldiers armor….ur not ever going to notice the difference on yoru character unless u see the enemies hp going a lil faster or slower. even that is barely noticeable if at all. with at thief its immediately apparent tho. hence why appropriation is of immense importance.

plz people on this thread. take off tunnel vision. look at the picture im trying to paint. Thief hate. trying to stop some of it by asking thieves to bring the right buidls for the job.

Travlane.5948:

Spyder.9713:

lol love it u can only back stab a boss for 6k?? hahaha I get 15 on full valk gear and no stacks of blood lust

actually i have a video of backstabbing for over 62k on a warrior.

anyway since we are done bragging and chest thumping…plz re read. i said the average backstab is around 6k. that means NOT running 25 30 0 0 15 bc its not really goign to survive in many dungeons. see thats the typical thinking im talking about in bad thieves. ooh ugh ahghooogah! me hit big number. rawrgruh! lol cmon its about total dmg and sustained dmg at same time. cant do that with d/d. set up stealth… backstab for 10k 6k or 12k whatever….then try again in 5-7 seconds “if” u havent been using init for anyting other than CND BS CND BS. you are not helping a group running a dungeon fractal etc going d/d. you can be replaced by a ranger that would outproduced d/d just with spirits alone. production = helping the group thru dmg, healing, buffs, conditions, skip trash, etc etc. the only thing d/d can do is dmg. period. cant even sustain hiself.

anyway my OP wasnt about dagger vs sword. its about brining appropriate builds/gear for each need. we are so fragile that we need to bring what is exactly correct or it really shows. if a guardian brings clerics or brings soldiers armor….ur not ever going to notice the difference on yoru character unless u see the enemies hp going a lil faster or slower. even that is barely noticeable if at all. with at thief its immediately apparent tho. hence why appropriation is of immense importance.

plz people on this thread. take off tunnel vision. look at the picture im trying to paint. Thief hate. trying to stop some of it by asking thieves to bring the right buidls for the job.

Do you even understand what your saying? First you tell people that one of 2 viable builds shouldn’t ever be used. A build that you say can’t survive in dungeons. A build that I’ve personally ran in every dungeon and survived perfectly well with. And second, you say that we should promote the “right buidls” (that’s how you spelled it). Now sit back and reread what you posted.

and yes I get 15k consistently on my thief running 10/30/30/0/0 and I cant remember the last time I died in a dungeon run and I am always in the top of the damage charts, don’t get me wrong I agree with u that bad thieves give us a bad name not just in grp settings but period, it is because its the glimmer class that any noob thinks they can just roll and dominate with till they realize it requires a lot more tactics and thinking they bargained for, I have always played assassin/ thief since paper d&d and yes im that old lol, my reason is because I find them one of the more difficult classes to play, most of the time as an assassin u are alone that is the life of an assassin, unlike other classes where u are almost always in a party unless u are asking to die lol so that being said as a thief u have to use ur brain because if u screw up u usually don’t have the buddies to come running to ur rescue… I just saying that it isn’t builds that ruin us, its the person sitting in front of the monitor, d/d works fine in dungeons if you know how to play, yes it isn’t ideal for every situation but that is why they have weapon swaps, some areas yes I switch to my short bow to aoe support the grp but I do just as much damage when im hitting 5-6k on cluster bombs on multiple target and not to mention the aoe poison/weakness if u know how to use combo fields…

Spyder.9713:

and yes I get 15k consistently on my thief running 10/30/30/0/0 and I cant remember the last time I died in a dungeon run and I am always in the top of the damage charts, don’t get me wrong I agree with u that bad thieves give us a bad name not just in grp settings but period, it is because its the glimmer class that any noob thinks they can just roll and dominate with till they realize it requires a lot more tactics and thinking they bargained for, I have always played assassin/ thief since paper d&d and yes im that old lol, my reason is because I find them one of the more difficult classes to play, most of the time as an assassin u are alone that is the life of an assassin, unlike other classes where u are almost always in a party unless u are asking to die lol so that being said as a thief u have to use ur brain because if u screw up u usually don’t have the buddies to come running to ur rescue… I just saying that it isn’t builds that ruin us, its the person sitting in front of the monitor, d/d works fine in dungeons if you know how to play, yes it isn’t ideal for every situation but that is why they have weapon swaps, some areas yes I switch to my short bow to aoe support the grp but I do just as much damage when im hitting 5-6k on cluster bombs on multiple target and not to mention the aoe poison/weakness if u know how to use combo fields…

maybe u mean AC? or something? mediocre lvl? try lvl 50 fractals? tpvp? i like how u pick out the corniest of the examples and say you 15k backstab. again even in pve thats rare. like i said ive hit 62.4k and its rare. if u play all modes equally between fractals/dungeons/wvw/tpvp/spvp you will only break 10k backstabs about 1-2% of the time u try. im sure you only play low lvl trash….but in higher lvl dungeons u are not doing that. perhaps you run with p/d off hand to build up 25 stacks of vulnerability and 25 might from 2 guards and 25 bloodlust you farmed to make it look cool on your screen lol. either way. even if u hit 25k backstabs. ur still not outdamaging sword. excluding bosses. even bosses tho its close.

again try to look past the d/d vs s/p thing . IT WAS A KITTEN EXAMPLE! that means not the main point. wow. tunnel vision cmon. its about being as productive as you can be or as productive as other classes in 1 of 5 team spots.

@ clumsy…. again…ill say it a 3rd or 4th time. half the problem is anet. the way they built thief. they just down alot bc they cant afford a mistake. not only that certain builds wont produce like another class can or other thief builds. and you cant deny the “no thieves plz” groups. they are out there. even the ones that dont say it usually kick you before you even ping your gear or build. has nothing to do with personal relations. its a thief thing. so u can disagree with me bc u like to disagree with me. and thats just bc ur a top 4 in here already…. yes u know. but you always do that without anyfacts or suggestions. why do u think parties do that? in lvl 49 (nobody runs 50s due to bug … yes bug.) i am usually the last person standing during party wipes and always actively attacking as i dont run stealth in my build. so its not like thief cant be productive. they can be a neccessity if played right yet….people kick them in 2 secs of entering a party…even a party which only has 2 people in it already.

It’s situational, not black and white

Sword hits multiple enemies. It does a higher overall DPS to groups. Sure.

Dagger Dagger does higher overall DPS to a single target.

It’s not just bosses that need to be bursted quickly. Sometimes, amidst a group of mobs, you need high priority targets dead.

Sometimes, you need a desired result more than you need overall numbers to beat an encounter.

I would be remiss to not mention that sometimes, sword is better for that same reason.

It’s situational, not black and white.

For Dungeons, I only use S/P, able to hit 5 foes at once, in level 80 dungeons I do 13K + per pistol whip EASY, and up to 15k+.

With the evade+stun and SoM Your almost unstoppable.

That plus AoE Blind there is no reason to use d/d in Group fights over s/p

IMO the thieves that give us a bad name are Venom Share thieves in Dungeons and fractals.

it’s ANET that give us a bad name. if they didn’t nerf us every patch we wouldn’t be in this position.

Faux.1937:

For Dungeons, I only use S/P, able to hit 5 foes at once, in level 80 dungeons I do 13K + per pistol whip EASY, and up to 15k+.

With the evade+stun and SoM Your almost unstoppable.

That plus AoE Blind there is no reason to use d/d in Group fights over s/p

IMO the thieves that give us a bad name are Venom Share thieves in Dungeons and fractals.

p/p and s/p are best buidls for high dungeons and fractals. anythign else is purely 1 or 2 situations prefferred at best

Man, you’ve started to look at this game as a life, and not what it really is – a game. Seriously though. I run the 25/30/0/0/15 build with great success in every single dungeon and high level fractals – I’m usually the last man standing, and sometimes soloing a boss because my group wiped. This game is 90% player, which means that builds, weapon sets and all that stuff is personal preference and play style.

Yes, a S/P thief will be more effective against trash mobs and better to bring in speed runs, so I agree that you shouldn’t join a speed-run group if you can’t speed run it. D/D isn’t bad, it’s less effective than S/P in dungeons. So stop saying everyone that’s not doing the same as you are damaging the thief reputation, because honestly, it’s people like you that do it.

Although I do think that if you know you’re running an experimental or downright awful dungeon build – let your group know.

Geiir.7603:

Man, you’ve started to look at this game as a life, and not what it really is – a game. Seriously though. I run the 25/30/0/0/15 build with great success in every single dungeon and high level fractals – I’m usually the last man standing, and sometimes soloing a boss because my group wiped. This game is 90% player, which means that builds, weapon sets and all that stuff is personal preference and play style.

Yes, a S/P thief will be more effective against trash mobs and better to bring in speed runs, so I agree that you shouldn’t join a speed-run group if you can’t speed run it. D/D isn’t bad, it’s less effective than S/P in dungeons. So stop saying everyone that’s not doing the same as you are damaging the thief reputation, because honestly, it’s people like you that do it.

Although I do think that if you know you’re running an experimental or downright awful dungeon build – let your group know.

another fella who didnt read the posts and missed the point. the point is tired of people kicking a thief with full ascended 4 legendaries and so many titles. (basically saying im expreienced) all these kicks are in les thatn 2 secs so its not like its osmething personal. people just dont want thieves in their group. even in tpvp. “can you please reroll”? fractals is bad too. dungeons not AS bad but still some parties are picky. and if u dont go in a picky party you could end up running a 2 hour run for a 15 minute path. so i suggested to theives to help cut down on people thinking like this to run appropriate builds that coincides with the path/dungeion/map/mode youare entering. and dont join an exp/speed run group if u are not experienced. it makes thieves look bad. now its not all their fault. no no no. its anets too for building us for everything BUT team play. we dont ahve too much to offer other than BPS. and those who say venoms jsut arent very good at math but w.e. yeah so half the problem is anet half is bad thieves. maybe a lil more on anets part but w.e.

so basically plz read a lil more b4 saying something that 3 other people said and got the same response . READ :P

Geiir.7603:

Man, you’ve started to look at this game as a life, and not what it really is – a game. Seriously though. I run the 25/30/0/0/15 build with great success in every single dungeon and high level fractals – I’m usually the last man standing, and sometimes soloing a boss because my group wiped. This game is 90% player, which means that builds, weapon sets and all that stuff is personal preference and play style.

Yes, a S/P thief will be more effective against trash mobs and better to bring in speed runs, so I agree that you shouldn’t join a speed-run group if you can’t speed run it. D/D isn’t bad, it’s less effective than S/P in dungeons. So stop saying everyone that’s not doing the same as you are damaging the thief reputation, because honestly, it’s people like you that do it.

Although I do think that if you know you’re running an experimental or downright awful dungeon build – let your group know.

also ur 100% backwards. i dont look at this game as a life…but as i HAVE a life. i dont wanna spend my hour or 2 that im able to play when my daughter is in bed just looking for a group or spending it all on 1 path (1.5g) bc its a horrible group due to the fact the experienced groups dont want thieves.

I have been kicked two or three times from a group as you say here, so it may be something on your server? But yes, way too many doesn’t know what they’re doing, yet they join experienced / speed groups, and as I said; I agree on that point. People shouldn’t join something they’re not up for. In tPvP I meet a lot of negativity against the thief. There it’s go meta or gtfo, but that applies to pretty much every profession. Thieves get hit pretty hard there due to the devs hate against stealth and thieves in general. As for dungeons and fractals I sometimes meet some negative feedback, but I tell them to give me a shot and I’m usually doing a few dungeons / paths with them after that

Hmm, valid point about the waiting and not spending your in-game time waiting. I never get kicked, so I don’t know man :/

Go fig. I run my usual 0/30/0/20/20 spec in dungeons (P/P for single-target, S/P for other), and do alright. Alright being: if I wipe as Thief, I’d still have wiped on any other alt. Usually run Withdraw/SoS/S.Step/RoI, Elite switches for what I’m dealing with.
(Need to try out the Skelk Venom trick, might be interesting in dungeon runs.)

The problem I run into, especially with guildies or folk who know what alts I tend to run, is that most folk think the Thief’s gonna drag ’em down … so they ask for the Mesmer or Ele, most times.

Travlane.5948:

also ur 100% backwards. i dont look at this game as a life…but as i HAVE a life. i dont wanna spend my hour or 2 that im able to play when my daughter is in bed just looking for a group or spending it all on 1 path (1.5g) bc its a horrible group due to the fact the experienced groups dont want thieves.

Its rare that I get to play my thief in the typical experienced groups that I normally run with. Not because they don’t want thieves in the party but because by the time I join the group normally already has 1-2 thieves in it. An experienced group that doesn’t like thieves is not an experienced group.

OP: Who are you to tell anyone else how to play? Just curious.

Quells.2498:

OP: Who are you to tell anyone else how to play? Just curious.

+1

Geiir.7603:

I have been kicked two or three times from a group as you say here, so it may be something on your server? But yes, way too many doesn’t know what they’re doing, yet they join experienced / speed groups, and as I said; I agree on that point. People shouldn’t join something they’re not up for. In tPvP I meet a lot of negativity against the thief. There it’s go meta or gtfo, but that applies to pretty much every profession. Thieves get hit pretty hard there due to the devs hate against stealth and thieves in general. As for dungeons and fractals I sometimes meet some negative feedback, but I tell them to give me a shot and I’m usually doing a few dungeons / paths with them after that

Hmm, valid point about the waiting and not spending your in-game time waiting. I never get kicked, so I don’t know man :/

it really compounds with the problem anet made by making thieves barely if at all desierable for dungeons/fractals. so on top of being a bad team class …. bad players make it doubly worse and these 2 combined make thieves auto kicked from alot of higher end groups.

Quells.2498:

OP: Who are you to tell anyone else how to play? Just curious.

who am i? i am just like the guy who says “no thieves allowed” . sad that it has to happen but im responding to THAT guy. and trying to make it better on our end. and if u dont like hearing “dont lie when entering groups”…“dont fake when entering groups” and “play appropriate builds for experienced/speed/pro runs” is off or wrong…then u are selfish yourself. im not asking anyone to be top notch for casual runs. but for the experiened runs….as they are required to be so…yes. im basically reiterating what the LFG posts say. its not like im saying it first. just reiterating. hows that wrong? oh… its not :P . if u dont like it then go /whisper the party leaders you see in the LFG Beta table. cheers.

You can’t control the world bro. It’s just life don’t take it so seriously or you’ll never get out alive. I’m just asking you to take a step back and look at the things you’re asking.

Quells.2498:

You can’t control the world bro. It’s just life don’t take it so seriously or you’ll never get out alive. I’m just asking you to take a step back and look at the things you’re asking.

Van Wilder quote

Travlane.5948:

who am i? i am just like the guy who says “no thieves allowed” . sad that it has to happen but im responding to THAT guy. and trying to make it better on our end. and if u dont like hearing “dont lie when entering groups”…“dont fake when entering groups” and “play appropriate builds for experienced/speed/pro runs” is off or wrong…then u are selfish yourself. im not asking anyone to be top notch for casual runs. but for the experiened runs….as they are required to be so…yes. im basically reiterating what the LFG posts say. its not like im saying it first. just reiterating. hows that wrong? oh… its not :P . if u dont like it then go /whisper the party leaders you see in the LFG Beta table. cheers.

Its ironic that you think your actually helping. Because teaching people to use mediocre wvw builds in pve is helping. Thank you.

Clumsy.6257:

Quells.2498:

You can’t control the world bro. It’s just life don’t take it so seriously or you’ll never get out alive. I’m just asking you to take a step back and look at the things you’re asking.

Van Wilder quote

Travlane.5948:

who am i? i am just like the guy who says “no thieves allowed” . sad that it has to happen but im responding to THAT guy. and trying to make it better on our end. and if u dont like hearing “dont lie when entering groups”…“dont fake when entering groups” and “play appropriate builds for experienced/speed/pro runs” is off or wrong…then u are selfish yourself. im not asking anyone to be top notch for casual runs. but for the experiened runs….as they are required to be so…yes. im basically reiterating what the LFG posts say. its not like im saying it first. just reiterating. hows that wrong? oh… its not :P . if u dont like it then go /whisper the party leaders you see in the LFG Beta table. cheers.

Its ironic that you think your actually helping. Because teaching people to use mediocre wvw builds in pve is helping. Thank you.

mediocre WVW builds in pve? nobody ever uses s/p or p/p in wvw…WOW lol what are you talkin about?

What am I talking about? Well… heres a list.
1.

it really compounds with the problem anet made by making thieves barely if at all desierable for dungeons/fractals.

Thieves have always been and more than likely will always be in the tier of classes for dungeons/fractals.

2.

p/p and s/p are best buidls for high dungeons and fractals. anythign else is purely 1 or 2 situations prefferred at best

P/p has 2 uses in this entire game. None of which require it. It should never be used in any circumstances in anything other than molten duo boss fractal or grawl fractal for end boss. Both situations benefit from a weapon hitting multiple times really fast to burn off stacks.

3.

auto attack only on sword beats entire d/d build. :P

Sword auto attack doesn’t even come close to d/d auto attack. Unless your talking about cleave but then thats so obvious that it doesn’t even need to be mentioned.

4.

thief BS is 5-6500 on average. can go higher maybe 8k if u have a decent d/d build /armor . if u are any higher ur gonna die…alot. even if its 10-12k its stillno comparison. even with 6k HS .

That backstab damage is pathetic. A full cleric’s thief would hit higher. Its more than possible to run in full berserkers and never die. I know multiple thieves that do it daily.

5.

Dagger Dagger = (ps nobody runs full zerk with this…10.8k hp is death with no def)

Your wrong. Refer to above quote.

6.

d/d cannot sit there in a stack and do dmg. (snip) the sword set will sit there and keep dmging where the dagger needs breaks every few secs.

If you can’t sit in a stack with d/d then your not dodging. D/d is very capable of surviving in a stack

7.

MOST groups that run pro/speed/experienced/zerk would not like to see dagger thieves as main hand.

Most speed run teams would kick a thief on sight if he wasn’t using d/d on bosses.

And just FYI about me not providing help, I’ve posted survival tips for meta builds many times. Its honestly incredibly easy. After playing my glass staff elementalist these past few days I’ve realized that you have no idea how easy thieves have it. We’re the epitome of tankiness compared to an elementalist.