Guild Wars 2

Gudy.3607:

evilapprentice.6379:

Except it’s still a kittenty condition damage based move in a power/crit damage based set.

D/D is clearly not a hybrid set – it has exactly 1 skill that can do damage with conditions (no, poison on lotus strike is not a viable damage source for condition builds). That is not a hybrid set.

sigh There we go again. Yes, most of the D/D skills are direct damage. Death Blossom, though, provides some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game and an easy way to stack them so they do significant damage. I don’t think that this is an accident like some other skills in this game which provide bleeding as something of an afterthought. Which, yes, makes D/D a hybrid set, whether you want it to or not.

With the poison to reduce healing, the Heart Seeker as a (admittedly somewhat short-ranged) gap closer, Dancing Dagger helping both with getting close and getting away, and Cloak and Dagger for stealth access, that makes it a decent hybrid set, as far as these things go. Is it competitive in PvP? Probably not, from what I’m hearing, and something should perhaps be done about that. Changing the character of the whole set, especially when the Thief already has a bunch of pure power sets (S/P, S/D, D/P), does not strike me as the way to do so, though.

I don’t really see how a hybrid set would work with d/d. I can see it happening if db costs 0 initiative but, with the way it is atm, after you finish spamming DB to stack bleeds, you’re gonna be too low to do anything else.

Then as the bleeds come off, you’re gonna need to kittenain to maintain the pressure. That basically leads to a build in which you just spam DB 90% of the time.

Justine.6351:

Reinn.7436:

Death Blossom
Initiative cost: 6

Description:
Shadowstep to your target foe and strike twice while evading attacks. The second strike hits foes that are adjacent to you and deals 50% more damage if target foe has more than 80% health.

Evade 1/2 s
Bleed (3 stacks)
Range 150

Hell why not make it steal a boon and knockdown while we are at it.

Nope, that’ll be asking too much.

Justine.6351:

Arikyali.5804:

What if….a thief is granted distort instead of just evades? and it reflected projectiles?

And I’m personally convinced it needs a buff. I’ve never seen it hold ground in WvW – ever. I’ve never lost to a d/d hybrid. Only when they go by the old style backstab, does d/d prove a threat/challenge.

Then why does it need to be changed?

I’m not understanding why the obsession with this skill having bleed stacks as bad. Even if converted to all power and remove bleeds it will never become the next Heatseeker. If this skill never had bleeds on it in the first place and had same dmg people would never have known the difference and instead complain more about its evade mechanic being somewhat unreliable than its low dmg. Not every skill on dagger needs to rip through a target. I was surprised on using glass d/d in low lvl pve that CND was 1 shoting trash. I thought the skill would be low dmg considering its powerful utility.

It needs to be changed because d/d hybrid isn’t a threat. It’s the only build that puts d/d 3 to use, and it’s still not effective. Utility or damage, it’s a waste of initiative. It serves no use in backstab d/d, when it could be changed to have decent utility. Hybrid damage is pointless if you need to spam initiative to stack those bleeds.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Gudy.3607:

evilapprentice.6379:

Except it’s still a kittenty condition damage based move in a power/crit damage based set.

D/D is clearly not a hybrid set – it has exactly 1 skill that can do damage with conditions (no, poison on lotus strike is not a viable damage source for condition builds). That is not a hybrid set.

sigh There we go again. Yes, most of the D/D skills are direct damage. Death Blossom, though, provides some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game and an easy way to stack them so they do significant damage. I don’t think that this is an accident like some other skills in this game which provide bleeding as something of an afterthought. Which, yes, makes D/D a hybrid set, whether you want it to or not.

With the poison to reduce healing, the Heart Seeker as a (admittedly somewhat short-ranged) gap closer, Dancing Dagger helping both with getting close and getting away, and Cloak and Dagger for stealth access, that makes it a decent hybrid set, as far as these things go. Is it competitive in PvP? Probably not, from what I’m hearing, and something should perhaps be done about that. Changing the character of the whole set, especially when the Thief already has a bunch of pure power sets (S/P, S/D, D/P), does not strike me as the way to do so, though.

I don’t really see how a hybrid set would work with d/d. I can see it happening if db costs 0 initiative but, with the way it is atm, after you finish spamming DB to stack bleeds, you’re gonna be too low to do anything else.

Then as the bleeds come off, you’re gonna need to kittenain to maintain the pressure. That basically leads to a build in which you just spam DB 90% of the time.

That’s why condi-builds are mostly defensive and have an offset like P/D. Because once you’re out of ini, you need to keep pressure on either with more conditions, or you need to dodge/stealth while they do their work.

Also, you could change DB into a purely power attack and nobody would use it when you could just CnD and then backstab and trounce whatever damage DB would do then. That’s why a change is not needed…you’re only screwing over the condi players, the power players will never play with the move no matter what because you either burst or condi with D/D, there is nothing else.

To look at how death blossom could be balanced you need to look to the past in the old skill of the same name

gw 1 death blossom was an dual attack move wich revolved around a damaging yet highly spammy ability behing the dual move with the lowest cooldown in the game (aka about 2 or 4 seconds) wich allowed it to be used in synergy with critical defence build for perma blocking. Since thief unlike assasin doesnt rely on cooldowns as a dual move death blossom could be designed in several way the first behing a full physical aoe attack the second by actualy exploiting the ‘’revealed system’’ and the fact dagger is suposed to be THE backstabing weapon aka making a repeat of the old right hand left hand dual skill gimmick of the assasin class by making death blossom particularly deadly once under the revealed debuff.

Other alternative would be to reduce death blossom cost further (aka cost 3 or 4 at worse) and allow it to be spammed the way it is now with a slight increase to physical damage. Or grant it a free cost when used while under the revealed debuff therefore encouraging the use of stealth for dot spammer.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Gudy.3607:

evilapprentice.6379:

Except it’s still a kittenty condition damage based move in a power/crit damage based set.

D/D is clearly not a hybrid set – it has exactly 1 skill that can do damage with conditions (no, poison on lotus strike is not a viable damage source for condition builds). That is not a hybrid set.

sigh There we go again. Yes, most of the D/D skills are direct damage. Death Blossom, though, provides some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game and an easy way to stack them so they do significant damage. I don’t think that this is an accident like some other skills in this game which provide bleeding as something of an afterthought. Which, yes, makes D/D a hybrid set, whether you want it to or not.

With the poison to reduce healing, the Heart Seeker as a (admittedly somewhat short-ranged) gap closer, Dancing Dagger helping both with getting close and getting away, and Cloak and Dagger for stealth access, that makes it a decent hybrid set, as far as these things go. Is it competitive in PvP? Probably not, from what I’m hearing, and something should perhaps be done about that. Changing the character of the whole set, especially when the Thief already has a bunch of pure power sets (S/P, S/D, D/P), does not strike me as the way to do so, though.

I don’t really see how a hybrid set would work with d/d. I can see it happening if db costs 0 initiative but, with the way it is atm, after you finish spamming DB to stack bleeds, you’re gonna be too low to do anything else.

Then as the bleeds come off, you’re gonna need to kittenain to maintain the pressure. That basically leads to a build in which you just spam DB 90% of the time.

That’s why condi-builds are mostly defensive and have an offset like P/D. Because once you’re out of ini, you need to keep pressure on either with more conditions, or you need to dodge/stealth while they do their work.

Also, you could change DB into a purely power attack and nobody would use it when you could just CnD and then backstab and trounce whatever damage DB would do then. That’s why a change is not needed…you’re only screwing over the condi players, the power players will never play with the move no matter what because you either burst or condi with D/D, there is nothing else.

Or they could make DB into an utility skill. A teleport, longer/more reliable evades that interrupts your attack animation, or something more complex like, say

Chain skill: Pain Weaver>Death Blossom

Pain Weaver: marks the target. For each further hit you damage the target with, it gains 1 stack of Pain. Each stack of Pain increases the damage the target takes by 0.5%.

Death Blossom: dash into the target, and if you successfully strike the target, remove all stacks of Pain from the target, dealing x damage per stack removed. Target loses all stacks of Pain and takes no damage if you fail to hit the target with this attack.

Xae Isareth.1364:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Gudy.3607:

evilapprentice.6379:

Except it’s still a kittenty condition damage based move in a power/crit damage based set.

D/D is clearly not a hybrid set – it has exactly 1 skill that can do damage with conditions (no, poison on lotus strike is not a viable damage source for condition builds). That is not a hybrid set.

sigh There we go again. Yes, most of the D/D skills are direct damage. Death Blossom, though, provides some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game and an easy way to stack them so they do significant damage. I don’t think that this is an accident like some other skills in this game which provide bleeding as something of an afterthought. Which, yes, makes D/D a hybrid set, whether you want it to or not.

With the poison to reduce healing, the Heart Seeker as a (admittedly somewhat short-ranged) gap closer, Dancing Dagger helping both with getting close and getting away, and Cloak and Dagger for stealth access, that makes it a decent hybrid set, as far as these things go. Is it competitive in PvP? Probably not, from what I’m hearing, and something should perhaps be done about that. Changing the character of the whole set, especially when the Thief already has a bunch of pure power sets (S/P, S/D, D/P), does not strike me as the way to do so, though.

I don’t really see how a hybrid set would work with d/d. I can see it happening if db costs 0 initiative but, with the way it is atm, after you finish spamming DB to stack bleeds, you’re gonna be too low to do anything else.

Then as the bleeds come off, you’re gonna need to kittenain to maintain the pressure. That basically leads to a build in which you just spam DB 90% of the time.

That’s why condi-builds are mostly defensive and have an offset like P/D. Because once you’re out of ini, you need to keep pressure on either with more conditions, or you need to dodge/stealth while they do their work.

Also, you could change DB into a purely power attack and nobody would use it when you could just CnD and then backstab and trounce whatever damage DB would do then. That’s why a change is not needed…you’re only screwing over the condi players, the power players will never play with the move no matter what because you either burst or condi with D/D, there is nothing else.

Or they could make DB into an utility skill. A teleport, longer/more reliable evades that interrupts your attack animation, or something more complex like, say

Chain skill: Pain Weaver>Death Blossom

Pain Weaver: marks the target. For each further hit you damage the target with, it gains 1 stack of Pain. Each stack of Pain increases the damage the target takes by 0.5%.

Death Blossom: dash into the target, and if you successfully strike the target, remove all stacks of Pain from the target, dealing x damage per stack removed. Target loses all stacks of Pain and takes no damage if you fail to hit the target with this attack.

Combined ini cost would probably the be the equivalent of a CnD…and would probably do less damage. Again, it wouldn’t replace CnD and Backstab. And if anything, would pigeonhole all the condition users exclusively into P/D (a set I personally find boring). And again, WHY do we need another power set other than S/D, S/P, and D/P anyway? Nobody has explained that part to me yet…because it would be like changing LB on Ranger into a condition weapon when they already have SB, mainhand axe, offhand axe, and offhand torch.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Xae Isareth.1364:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Gudy.3607:

evilapprentice.6379:

Except it’s still a kittenty condition damage based move in a power/crit damage based set.

D/D is clearly not a hybrid set – it has exactly 1 skill that can do damage with conditions (no, poison on lotus strike is not a viable damage source for condition builds). That is not a hybrid set.

sigh There we go again. Yes, most of the D/D skills are direct damage. Death Blossom, though, provides some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game and an easy way to stack them so they do significant damage. I don’t think that this is an accident like some other skills in this game which provide bleeding as something of an afterthought. Which, yes, makes D/D a hybrid set, whether you want it to or not.

With the poison to reduce healing, the Heart Seeker as a (admittedly somewhat short-ranged) gap closer, Dancing Dagger helping both with getting close and getting away, and Cloak and Dagger for stealth access, that makes it a decent hybrid set, as far as these things go. Is it competitive in PvP? Probably not, from what I’m hearing, and something should perhaps be done about that. Changing the character of the whole set, especially when the Thief already has a bunch of pure power sets (S/P, S/D, D/P), does not strike me as the way to do so, though.

I don’t really see how a hybrid set would work with d/d. I can see it happening if db costs 0 initiative but, with the way it is atm, after you finish spamming DB to stack bleeds, you’re gonna be too low to do anything else.

Then as the bleeds come off, you’re gonna need to kittenain to maintain the pressure. That basically leads to a build in which you just spam DB 90% of the time.

That’s why condi-builds are mostly defensive and have an offset like P/D. Because once you’re out of ini, you need to keep pressure on either with more conditions, or you need to dodge/stealth while they do their work.

Also, you could change DB into a purely power attack and nobody would use it when you could just CnD and then backstab and trounce whatever damage DB would do then. That’s why a change is not needed…you’re only screwing over the condi players, the power players will never play with the move no matter what because you either burst or condi with D/D, there is nothing else.

Or they could make DB into an utility skill. A teleport, longer/more reliable evades that interrupts your attack animation, or something more complex like, say

Chain skill: Pain Weaver>Death Blossom

Pain Weaver: marks the target. For each further hit you damage the target with, it gains 1 stack of Pain. Each stack of Pain increases the damage the target takes by 0.5%.

Death Blossom: dash into the target, and if you successfully strike the target, remove all stacks of Pain from the target, dealing x damage per stack removed. Target loses all stacks of Pain and takes no damage if you fail to hit the target with this attack.

Combined ini cost would probably the be the equivalent of a CnD…and would probably do less damage. Again, it wouldn’t replace CnD and Backstab. And if anything, would pigeonhole all the condition users exclusively into P/D (a set I personally find boring). And again, WHY do we need another power set other than S/D, S/P, and D/P anyway? Nobody has explained that part to me yet…because it would be like changing LB on Ranger into a condition weapon when they already have SB, mainhand axe, offhand axe, and offhand torch.

Why would it do the same damage? It requires more build up, and thus can be more punishing on the target.

You also get a damage bonus on the target which benefits the entire group, that’s especially useful for PvE.

I don’t disagree with the idea of a thief condition weapon. D/D is not a condition weapon, it’s designed to be a hybrid weapon but that’s just doesn’t work.

The thing I don’t get is why does it always have to be this idea that it’s gotta do damage. Why can’t it be an utility skill?

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Ironic, I keep killing other players with it in sPvP and WvW. They don’t really expect it to be used on them immediately after a backstab, and it has some nice bleeding on it. You could call them bads or whatever, I call it the art of surprise, because would YOU expect another thief to use DB on you?

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Except it isn’t. Layering it on top of Caltrops is the most effective bleed stacking in the game, hands down. And yes, it does. It’s called versatility. Stop being myopic.

Einlanzer.1627:

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Except it isn’t. Layering it on top of Caltrops is the most effective bleed stacking in the game, hands down.

For things too stupid to walk out of the caltrop AoE and incapable of cleanses, IE things that nearly any spec would work on. Just because something works on dumbkitten AI and kittenty players does not make it viable or well designed. If you still want to mindlessly spam 3 in PvE, you can always roll S/P.

And yes, it does. It’s called versatility. Stop being myopic.

No, it’s called poor design – the set is too disjointed. For any specific weapon skill, you’re only ever using one set of DPS stats – every time you DB, every point you have in power, precision and ferocity is wasted. Every time you use any other skill in the set, your condition damage is absolutely worthless. This is a great example of poor design.

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Except it isn’t. Layering it on top of Caltrops is the most effective bleed stacking in the game, hands down.

For things too stupid to walk out of the caltrop AoE and incapable of cleanses, IE things that nearly any spec would work on. Just because something works on dumbkitten AI and kittenty players does not make it viable or well designed. If you still want to mindlessly spam 3 in PvE, you can always roll S/P.

And yes, it does. It’s called versatility. Stop being myopic.

No, it’s called poor design – the set is too disjointed. For any specific weapon skill, you’re only ever using one set of DPS stats – every time you DB, every point you have in power, precision and ferocity is wasted. Every time you use any other skill in the set, your condition damage is absolutely worthless. This is a great example of poor design.

DB doesn’t need to function as another hard hitter for your power/prec/ferocity to be “useful” there. It just needs to evade reliably and be a skill shot. Makes “3 spam” harder, the aftercast will make you vulnerable but atleast you would be able to time your initiative evasion rather than do a ballerina dance as they strike a hammer down on you.

^Nailed it. DB doesn’t need any kind of damage or ability adjustment as much as it needs reworked evasion frames. DB is hard to counterplay, since the frames are so unpredictable (by reaction time they’re in the evade frames), and offers the thief no counterplay since you need to react before an attack is made since it’ll connect before you hit the evade frames.

That said, I would like to see some of D/D’s condition application tweaked. I dislike the prospect of 3spam bleedfest while evading. It’s great for weapons to have two ways of dealing damage, but this set handles it poorly. Would much rather see conditions attached to a mixture of DB and Dancing Dagger and a little more potency added, just to make the build a bit more diverse and a bit more functional with less 3-spam, because admit it, Heartseeker/QZ+SotW+RF bearbow ranger/HB war spam is the same thing.

NinjaEd.3946:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Except it isn’t. Layering it on top of Caltrops is the most effective bleed stacking in the game, hands down.

For things too stupid to walk out of the caltrop AoE and incapable of cleanses, IE things that nearly any spec would work on. Just because something works on dumbkitten AI and kittenty players does not make it viable or well designed. If you still want to mindlessly spam 3 in PvE, you can always roll S/P.

And yes, it does. It’s called versatility. Stop being myopic.

No, it’s called poor design – the set is too disjointed. For any specific weapon skill, you’re only ever using one set of DPS stats – every time you DB, every point you have in power, precision and ferocity is wasted. Every time you use any other skill in the set, your condition damage is absolutely worthless. This is a great example of poor design.

DB doesn’t need to function as another hard hitter for your power/prec/ferocity to be “useful” there. It just needs to evade reliably and be a skill shot. Makes “3 spam” harder, the aftercast will make you vulnerable but atleast you would be able to time your initiative evasion rather than do a ballerina dance as they strike a hammer down on you.

No, DB doesn’t need to change to benefit from Power/feorcity, but D/D does need a change. As it stands, D/D is a subpar power set, an extremely subpar “hybrid” set, and worthless as a condition set. It’s not good for anyone.

I’m all for turning it into a real hybrid set (some copy/pasta below on the subject), but pretending like D/D is fine the way it is or would be fixed with minor tweaks to DB while ignoring the fact that every other weapon skill in D/D has no use for condition damage is naive.

DeceiverX.8361:

That said, I would like to see some of D/D’s condition application tweaked. I dislike the prospect of 3spam bleedfest while evading. It’s great for weapons to have two ways of dealing damage, but this set handles it poorly. Would much rather see conditions attached to a mixture of DB and Dancing Dagger and a little more potency added, just to make the build a bit more diverse and a bit more functional with less 3-spam, because admit it, Heartseeker/QZ+SotW+RF bearbow ranger/HB war spam is the same thing.

Here’s a copy paste of something I said earlier in this thread -

“Want to see what D/D would look like if it was actually a hybrid set?

Double strike – reduce damage scaling, add a 2-3s Bleed to each swing.
Front stab (backstab from the front) – reduce damage scaling alot, add damaging conditions to compensate
DB – lower bleed duration some, buff direct damage some
Dancing Dagger – add torment, increase Init cost by 1.

There. That’s what a hybrid set looks like (at least compared to what we currently have in D/D). You have multiple options for dealing condition damage – you have multiple options for dealing direct damage – the skills that don’t have a way to deal both types of damage (wild strike, HS, CnD) at least have other generally useful side effects (endurance gain, gap closing, stealth which opens up your dual use BS)."

Is that suggestion perfect? Probably not, but it would turn D/D into a functional hybrid set without breaking D/P, S/D, or P/D.

evilapprentice.6379:

No, DB doesn’t need to change to benefit from Power/feorcity, but D/D does need a change. As it stands, D/D is a subpar power set, an extremely subpar “hybrid” set, and worthless as a condition set. It’s not good for anyone.

I’m all for turning it into a real hybrid set (some copy/pasta below on the subject), but pretending like D/D is fine the way it is or would be fixed with minor tweaks to DB while ignoring the fact that every other weapon skill in D/D has no use for condition damage is naive.

Its subpar because missing a cnd means no backstab, which means most of your dps just went “phewwwww” and also because only 2/4 skills on d/d at all benefit power. That doesn’t mean you simply change everything to some hard hitter, the idea is time and place. Dancing dagger has no place on power, but could easily be made to satisfy condi/hybrid. DB could satisfy power if it evaded properly and already suits condi/hybrid.

The idea of d/d I don’t think was to spam DB, I mean look at the bleed duration. The idea was more than likely you land 1 or 2 of those, lay down some poison, and add something else to the mix however it seemed to of adapted to traditional 3 spam since its easier I guess (also the initiative cost was reduced long ago making it more common).

D/D doesn’t need a multitude of conditions to be a viable condi or hybrid set, there are traits and utilities and runes and weapon swap to complete it all. They just gata make all skills on the d/d kit have a place regardless of you being spec’ed for condi or power. Thief isn’t sitting on a lot of weapon choices, so lets not nerf any of them please.

RyuDragnier.9476:

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Ironic, I keep killing other players with it in sPvP and WvW. They don’t really expect it to be used on them immediately after a backstab, and it has some nice bleeding on it. You could call them bads or whatever, I call it the art of surprise, because would YOU expect another thief to use DB on you?

I wouldn’t because I’d be questioning what the heck is he doing. The idea of a d/d build is to kill quick and get out quick, because you hit hard and get hit hard.

If I got back stabbed, I’m heavily damaged and a few more autos would both poison me and leave me to be very vulnerable to get KOed by heartseeker. I’m expecting that.

If you then instead self-CC yourself and let me heal instead of finishing me off, be my guest, I’m happy to take that.

Just undo the nerfs done to deathblosom, up the bleeding damage to the level of how it was when the game was shipped, up the evade to how it was when the game was shipped. We do not need a 2nd gap closer we got heartseeker and we desperately need more bleeds to deal with high armor professions.

And while the devs are on it how about they make it hit reliably instead of missing 30-60% of the hits…

evilapprentice.6379:

NinjaEd.3946:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

kitten .9460:

Einlanzer.1627:

No thank you.

Frankly, making DB a power skill wouldn’t make sense, since D/D is already fully functional as a power set and the only other melee option is power-only.

It doesn’t need to be changed, except for maybe tuning the evade a bit. It functions very effectively as a bleed stacker and allows D/D to have a little versatility. It’s also very flavorful. Anyone who thinks it’s weak or useless doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is just stuck in myopic perpetual backstab mode.

DB is a terrible skill I’ve mained thief since day 1… it is just bad, glad you can find some joy in 3 spamming on immobile AI though.

Try using it against another player in yolo or team queue or even a dungeon and watch as the group laughs at you and expect a swift kick.

Doesn’t make sense to have it condi based on an obvious power set.

Except it isn’t. Layering it on top of Caltrops is the most effective bleed stacking in the game, hands down.

For things too stupid to walk out of the caltrop AoE and incapable of cleanses, IE things that nearly any spec would work on. Just because something works on dumbkitten AI and kittenty players does not make it viable or well designed. If you still want to mindlessly spam 3 in PvE, you can always roll S/P.

And yes, it does. It’s called versatility. Stop being myopic.

No, it’s called poor design – the set is too disjointed. For any specific weapon skill, you’re only ever using one set of DPS stats – every time you DB, every point you have in power, precision and ferocity is wasted. Every time you use any other skill in the set, your condition damage is absolutely worthless. This is a great example of poor design.

DB doesn’t need to function as another hard hitter for your power/prec/ferocity to be “useful” there. It just needs to evade reliably and be a skill shot. Makes “3 spam” harder, the aftercast will make you vulnerable but atleast you would be able to time your initiative evasion rather than do a ballerina dance as they strike a hammer down on you.

No, DB doesn’t need to change to benefit from Power/feorcity, but D/D does need a change. As it stands, D/D is a subpar power set, an extremely subpar “hybrid” set, and worthless as a condition set. It’s not good for anyone.

I’m all for turning it into a real hybrid set (some copy/pasta below on the subject), but pretending like D/D is fine the way it is or would be fixed with minor tweaks to DB while ignoring the fact that every other weapon skill in D/D has no use for condition damage is naive.

DeceiverX.8361:

That said, I would like to see some of D/D’s condition application tweaked. I dislike the prospect of 3spam bleedfest while evading. It’s great for weapons to have two ways of dealing damage, but this set handles it poorly. Would much rather see conditions attached to a mixture of DB and Dancing Dagger and a little more potency added, just to make the build a bit more diverse and a bit more functional with less 3-spam, because admit it, Heartseeker/QZ+SotW+RF bearbow ranger/HB war spam is the same thing.

Here’s a copy paste of something I said earlier in this thread -

“Want to see what D/D would look like if it was actually a hybrid set?

Double strike – reduce damage scaling, add a 2-3s Bleed to each swing.
Front stab (backstab from the front) – reduce damage scaling alot, add damaging conditions to compensate
DB – lower bleed duration some, buff direct damage some
Dancing Dagger – add torment, increase Init cost by 1.

There. That’s what a hybrid set looks like (at least compared to what we currently have in D/D). You have multiple options for dealing condition damage – you have multiple options for dealing direct damage – the skills that don’t have a way to deal both types of damage (wild strike, HS, CnD) at least have other generally useful side effects (endurance gain, gap closing, stealth which opens up your dual use BS)."

Is that suggestion perfect? Probably not, but it would turn D/D into a functional hybrid set without breaking D/P, S/D, or P/D.

It would break D/x dps/stab builds in PvP and ruin thieves in PvE, though. If anything it jut removes diversity from within the set by just saying “YOU NOW PLAY HYBRID” Actually, I would just straight up stop playing thief if that was implemented, no offense.

DeceiverX.8361:

It would break D/x dps/stab builds in PvP and ruin thieves in PvE, though. If anything it jut removes diversity from within the set by just saying “YOU NOW PLAY HYBRID” Actually, I would just straight up stop playing thief if that was implemented, no offense.

Oh my – how could I have forgotten how reliant Power/crit is on double strike and poorly positioned fronstabs. On top of that, X/D sets are so reliant on Dancing dagger that the 1 additional init cost would literally kill the set.

On a less sarcastic note, you can’t be serious. What you posted doesnt even count as hyperbole – anyone who understand how thief works couldn’t possibly believe what you posted. All a Power/crit thief would lose is a tiny bit of upfront damage on 1 of their AA chains, which would be made up for by the bleeds, and 1 more init on a utility skill that doesn’t see much use as it is. This barely touches power/crit builds, and opens up D/D to actually doing condition damage without 3 spam – how you got “reduces diversity” from that is beyond me. If you want to quit playing thief when they improve the weapon sets, be my guest.

Please, Oh please, explain to me how this would ruin Power/crit D/X builds – I’m champing at the bit to see it.

^ at this point, I would really really be relunctant to change anything into a condition weapon. Doing so instantly relegates it from being useful in half the game because of how conditions are just broken in PvE.

If you do that, any thief who wants to play seriously in PvE is then basically forced to use s/p or s/d

Xae Isareth.1364:

^ at this point, I would really really be relunctant to change anything into a condition weapon. Doing so instantly relegates it from being useful in half the game because of how conditions are just broken in PvE.

If you do that, any thief who wants to play seriously in PvE is then basically forced to use s/p or s/d

I wouldnt know because I don’t PvE, but that’s not the Thief classes problem and D/D shouldn’t be paying the price for it.

My suggestion leaves D/D as a viable power/crit set (if it works now as a power/crit set, it’d work with my changes as a power/crit set almost identically), elevate it to a functioning hybrid set, and improve it as a condition set (though I probably still wouldn’t call it viable or well built as a condition set)

If conditions in general have issues in PvE, that’s a separate issue that has nothing to do with the design of D/D. They could make the changes in PvP/WvW for all I care.

Edit:Also, how would this transform D/P into a condition weapon?

Maybe we could turn death blossom into a vulnerability, cripple, or just make it a power-based aoe evade skill. It’d be pretty cool if I could run into a group of people and press 3 to evade and deal 3-4k damage all around me.

alchemyst.2165:

Maybe we could turn death blossom into a vulnerability, cripple, or just make it a power-based aoe evade skill. It’d be pretty cool if I could run into a group of people and press 3 to evade and deal 3-4k damage all around me.

No, no, no. Please, just make it a skill shot and a reliable evade frame. Even increase the initiative by 1 (5 total), it does not need to fit into a power skill or need any nerf to it’s conditions. Clunky skill’s don’t need buffs they need to be fixed.

NinjaEd.3946:

alchemyst.2165:

Maybe we could turn death blossom into a vulnerability, cripple, or just make it a power-based aoe evade skill. It’d be pretty cool if I could run into a group of people and press 3 to evade and deal 3-4k damage all around me.

No, no, no. Please, just make it a skill shot and a reliable evade frame. Even increase the initiative by 1 (5 total), it does not need to fit into a power skill or need any nerf to it’s conditions. Clunky skill’s don’t need buffs they need to be fixed.

Pretty much this. I don’t really care if it’s not doing damage in my power build as long as I can reliably use it as a purposeful dodge in reaction to a tell, rather than spamming it hoping their hard hitters don’t land during a pre/post cast.

I could definitely be happy with a 5-init DB that would still inflict bleed but require a direction to cast (like the warrior GS 3), with a reliable evade frame and maybe jumping a little further. I’ve always thought that the DB animation was really cool, and that it was unfortunate that the skill itself was so lame. Imagine those cool evades ! DB + Withdraw = Kungkittenthief.

I know this thread is already kind of old, but I have always been thinking about a change for DB this since D/D is my favorite Thief weapon set and it just isn’t viable to use with the rest of the skills, Im not a pro thief but I have quite some knowledge, to all those saying that D/D is a hybrid build you are all wrong (maybe thats what they intended to do but it isn’t really viable), spamming 3 with caltrops is fun in low lvl PVE and maybe to kill new/unexperienced players in sPVP, but do it against experienced players and you will see how bad you will look and how dead you will be.

Topic :

DB doesn’t need damage, better evade frame would be nice, but what D/D really needs is a gap closer, not an instant Shadow Step as that would be too OP but maybe make DB have more range than HS and faster animation, I feel like DB’s range is way too short its only useful as an extra clunky evade, or maybe add a Shadow Step but with a second activation, like a dagger throw that has to connect with the target in order to trigger the Shadow Step skill. I feel like D/D just falls flat in comparison with D/P, why play D/D when you can play D/P and do the same thing better ? Yes CnD is nice, has vulnerability and makes you go invisible faster and for less initiative than D/P but you have to be near the opponent and land it, when D/P can just invis whenever they please while blinding the opponent and landing a HS, it also has a nice gap closer with another blind, so reworking DB into something more useful to put D/D on par with D/P would be more than welcomed.

Something like what the above poster mentioned would be nice as long as its faster and has more range than HS.

Apologize me for the long post and for bumping this thread but this is something that has been bothering me for quite a while.

I think people fixate on D/D as a power set, and it causes them to have cognitive dissonance about Death Blossom, which is the only real mechanism causing people to want it to change. I will continue to argue the following points:

1.) It’s more useful than most people assume and is the best bleed stacking available to any class in the game. And, yes, it typically outperforms Cluster Bomb, even without Caltrops. Especially with it. Granted, this is a more a boon for PvE than for PvP, but that (and the reverse) is true for many things in the game. There’s nothing wrong with it.

2.) D/D already functions more than fine with pure power builds. It is not in desperate need of that #3 skill to be anything else.

3.) D/D needs to be versatile. S/x is already a power-only set. It would not be a good status quo for Thieves to have no condition friendly melee weapons.

What DB needs is to have more reliable/better working evades. This will improve its usability in PvP without getting in the way of the benefits it grants to the set as a whole.

The other thing I have always argued is that Poison is not tuned well, and that downplays the condition component of D/D when it should not. Poison damage should scale better with Condition damage than it does, or, Thieves should have a trait that increases the damage of Poison.

Einlanzer.1627:

I think people fixate on D/D as a power set, and it causes them to have cognitive dissonance about Death Blossom, which is the only real mechanism causing people to want it to change. I will continue to argue the following points:

People want D/D to change because in PvP, it’s completely subpar to D/P. There’s more than 1 reason why, but one of the major reasons is because D/D is only viable in PvP as a power set, and DB is a complete waste of initiative for a power set.

Let’s also note, all signs point to D/D Being a power set – DB is the only skill you could reasonably use to cause condition damage to a target with D/D.

1.) It’s more useful than most people assume and is the best bleed stacking available to any class in the game. And, yes, it typically outperforms Cluster Bomb, even without Caltrops. Especially with it. Granted, this is a more a boon for PvE than for PvP, but that (and the reverse) is true for many things in the game. There’s nothing wrong with it.

We shouldn’t be using PvE as a benchmark – almost anything will work in PvE, which makes the statement “it works in PvE” almost worthless.

2.) D/D already functions more than fine with pure power builds. It is not in desperate need of that #3 skill to be anything else.

False. D/D is nowhere to be seen in PvP due in part to DB.

3.) D/D needs to be versatile. S/x is already a power-only set. It would not be a good status quo for Thieves to have no condition friendly melee weapons.

Thieves already don’t have a condition friendly melee weapon. Pressing 3 over and over again isn’t “playing the game”.

What DB needs is to have more reliable/better working evades. This will improve its usability in PvP without getting in the way of the benefits it grants to the set as a whole.

The other thing I have always argued is that Poison is not tuned well, and that downplays the condition component of D/D when it should not. Poison damage should scale better with Condition damage than it does, or, Thieves should have a trait that increases the damage of Poison.

D/D’s best bet is to be turned into a hybrid set. Earlier in this thread you can find a suggestion I made to that effect. It would turn D/D into a functioning hybrid set without upsetting D/P or P/D.

evilapprentice.6379:

We shouldn’t be using PvE as a benchmark – almost anything will work in PvE, which makes the statement “it works in PvE” almost worthless.

You said above that you don’t PvE. Granted, PvE isn’t particularly difficult, but you’re probably underestimating the value of having a skill like DB in PvE. D/D would unquestionably be weaker without it and the set would be much more pigeonholed, which I personally don’t want. Period.

Now, I will concede one thing – the AoE component of DB is what made it practically necessary for leveling and such, but with the recent addition of Cleave to the autoattack, it’s a little less important.

So, if your contention is that D/D should be made into a more workable hybrid set through changes to DB, I might be on-board with that. However, I still believe that DB is better in its current form than people think of it as being.

Except D/D players largely don’t want it to be a hybrid set.

As I said earlier, I’d drop the class in its entirety if D/D became hybrid. I almost play this game exclusively for D/D power thief. A lot of D/D players use it over D/P because it offers more damage. Turning sets into hybrids doesn’t do anything except force the set into condition damage. P/P is bad because of this exact reasoning, especially since changes to 1/2/4/5 reflect other weapons.

The dagger doesn’t need lower damage for bonus conditions. Spamming 1 and 3 are not playing the game just as much as spamming 3 isn’t playing the game. It would drop viability in PvE and remove finishing potential in PvP formats. It indirectly nerfs the effectiveness of RT and other power traits/specs. There are a lot of reasons to disagree with this prospect.

P/P is a terrible hybrid set because it’s paired between the two most powerful thief builds – D/P and P/D, yet is still sub-par on everything. How about we look at improving that hybrid spec first before we go about trying to force what is currently a barely-viable power spec into being a trash-tier hybrid spec for the sake of letting a few people feel stronger by using an already-poor build?

Would of all things like to see DB remove say, a condition or two per cast, and have the conditions be treated as projectiles launch in a random direction in the air which when hitting a player returns said condition back.

Buffs D/D’s utility which solves the D/P superiority problem wile giving D/P still better stealth access and cleansing from SE, prevents damage changes/direct buffs to D/D which would affect other sets.

The suggestion to have dagger MH be turned into a hybrid weapon is the same as asking for MH sword on mesmer to have reduced damage and apply confusion because there are no melee weapons for condi/hybrid mesmer.

I sincerely doubt that the power mesmer community would be okay with that, seeing as the MH sword is their iconic power weapon. The same is said of thieves with dagger MH.

evilapprentice.6379:

DeceiverX.8361:

It would break D/x dps/stab builds in PvP and ruin thieves in PvE, though. If anything it jut removes diversity from within the set by just saying “YOU NOW PLAY HYBRID” Actually, I would just straight up stop playing thief if that was implemented, no offense.

Oh my – how could I have forgotten how reliant Power/crit is on double strike and poorly positioned fronstabs. On top of that, X/D sets are so reliant on Dancing dagger that the 1 additional init cost would literally kill the set.

On a less sarcastic note, you can’t be serious. What you posted doesnt even count as hyperbole – anyone who understand how thief works couldn’t possibly believe what you posted. All a Power/crit thief would lose is a tiny bit of upfront damage on 1 of their AA chains, which would be made up for by the bleeds, and 1 more init on a utility skill that doesn’t see much use as it is. This barely touches power/crit builds, and opens up D/D to actually doing condition damage without 3 spam – how you got “reduces diversity” from that is beyond me. If you want to quit playing thief when they improve the weapon sets, be my guest.

Please, Oh please, explain to me how this would ruin Power/crit D/X builds – I’m champing at the bit to see it.

Before you post any further Deciever, please respond to this post from earlier in the thread. You made some pretty substantial claims that you were entirely incapable of
justifying. From what you’ve written here, it’s hard to believe you know the class well enough to weigh in on any balance decisions.

For the sake of clarity, here is the list of changes I suggested that you felt would “ruin D/X builds”

- Double strike – reduce damage scaling, add a 2-3s Bleed to each swing.
- Front stab (backstab from the front) – reduce damage scaling alot, add damaging conditions to compensate
- DB – lower bleed duration some, buff direct damage some
- Dancing Dagger – add torment, increase Init cost by 1.

DeceiverX.8361:

Except D/D players largely don’t want it to be a hybrid set.

As I said earlier, I’d drop the class in its entirety if D/D became hybrid. I almost play this game exclusively for D/D power thief. A lot of D/D players use it over D/P because it offers more damage. Turning sets into hybrids doesn’t do anything except force the set into condition damage. P/P is bad because of this exact reasoning, especially since changes to 1/2/4/5 reflect other weapons.

D/D already is a hybrid set, even if running condi is not quite as optimal as running power. This is for a good reason – running condi is far more versatile. This aspect of D/D does not need to be gutted. If anything, it should be expanded.

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Kadin.2356:

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Calling DB completely useless is an obvious hyperbole.

Einlanzer.1627:

Kadin.2356:

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Calling DB completely useless is an obvious hyperbole.

No, it isn’t. Not even a little bit.

In a power/crit setup, DB is useless. The answer to the question “What ability should I use next?” is almost never answered by “Death Blossom”. That should not be the case.

Even if DB’s evade was slightly extended, it still wouldn’t be worth using except for when you were entirely out of endurance. The only reason FS is worth using for 4 init is because it leads into LS, and because of how Inf strike and Inf return allow for constant repositioning. That’s why when Anet was looking to nerf S/D they limited the access to LS and let you use FS as much as you wanted.

When equipping D/D, you shouldn’t have to decide between 1 of your skills being completely useless or all of your other skills except 1 being horribly underpowered.

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

Kadin.2356:

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Calling DB completely useless is an obvious hyperbole.

No, it isn’t. Not even a little bit.

In a power/crit setup, DB is useless. The answer to the question “What ability should I use next?” is almost never answered by “Death Blossom”. That should not be the case.

Even if DB’s evade was slightly extended, it still wouldn’t be worth using except for when you were entirely out of endurance. The only reason FS is worth using for 4 init is because it leads into LS, and because of how Inf strike and Inf return allow for constant repositioning. That’s why when Anet was looking to nerf S/D they limited the access to LS and let you use FS as much as you wanted.

When equipping D/D, you shouldn’t have to decide between 1 of your skills being completely useless or all of your other skills except 1 being horribly underpowered.

Yes, it is.

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

Kadin.2356:

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Calling DB completely useless is an obvious hyperbole.

No, it isn’t. Not even a little bit.

In a power/crit setup, DB is useless. The answer to the question “What ability should I use next?” is almost never answered by “Death Blossom”. That should not be the case.

Even if DB’s evade was slightly extended, it still wouldn’t be worth using except for when you were entirely out of endurance. The only reason FS is worth using for 4 init is because it leads into LS, and because of how Inf strike and Inf return allow for constant repositioning. That’s why when Anet was looking to nerf S/D they limited the access to LS and let you use FS as much as you wanted.

When equipping D/D, you shouldn’t have to decide between 1 of your skills being completely useless or all of your other skills except 1 being horribly underpowered.

Yes, it is.

I offered an argument as to why I feel it isn’t hyperbole. If all you can offer is “Yes, it is” that’s simply your opinion. One I’ve proven wrong in the post you’ve quoted. Just because you feel DB isn’t useless for a power/crit spec doesn’t make it so.

Let’s do a quick thought experiment.

I’m running D/D, and the goal of my spec is to do power/crit damage. Ignoring potential traits;

I want to do damage and my opponent has high health. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to do damage and my opponent has low health. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to close a gap. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to open a gap. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to gain stealth. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to access a combo field. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

Unsurprisingly, the answer to all of these are “No” (leap and projectile finishers are available on D/D and are again, almost always the better choice).

But maybe I stacked the deck. Let’s ask some questions that aren’t certainly “No.”

I want to avoid an attack. Is DB the best choice for this scenario? Maybe? DB’s evade frames are so bad you need split second timing (which is at time out of your control due to natural server latency), using endurance and actually dodging is always your best bet.

…. and we’re out of situations you’d want to use DB in.

Also note we’re ignoring potential trait interactions which would potentially make DB an even more unattractive proposition.

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

Kadin.2356:

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Calling DB completely useless is an obvious hyperbole.

No, it isn’t. Not even a little bit.

In a power/crit setup, DB is useless. The answer to the question “What ability should I use next?” is almost never answered by “Death Blossom”. That should not be the case.

Even if DB’s evade was slightly extended, it still wouldn’t be worth using except for when you were entirely out of endurance. The only reason FS is worth using for 4 init is because it leads into LS, and because of how Inf strike and Inf return allow for constant repositioning. That’s why when Anet was looking to nerf S/D they limited the access to LS and let you use FS as much as you wanted.

When equipping D/D, you shouldn’t have to decide between 1 of your skills being completely useless or all of your other skills except 1 being horribly underpowered.

Yes, it is.

I offered an argument as to why I feel it isn’t hyperbole. If all you can offer is “Yes, it is” that’s simply your opinion. One I’ve proven wrong in the post you’ve quoted. Just because you feel DB isn’t useless for a power/crit spec doesn’t make it so.

Let’s do a quick thought experiment.

I’m running D/D, and the goal of my spec is to do power/crit damage. Ignoring potential traits;

I want to do damage and my opponent has high health. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to do damage and my opponent has low health. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to close a gap. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to open a gap. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to gain stealth. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

I want to access a combo field. Is DB the best choice for this scenario?

Unsurprisingly, the answer to all of these are “No” (leap and projectile finishers are available on D/D and are again, almost always the better choice).

But maybe I stacked the deck. Let’s ask some questions that aren’t certainly “No.”

I want to avoid an attack. Is DB the best choice for this scenario? Maybe? DB’s evade frames are so bad you need split second timing (which is at time out of your control due to natural server latency), using endurance and actually dodging is always your best bet.

…. and we’re out of situations you’d want to use DB in.

Also note we’re ignoring potential trait interactions which would potentially make DB an even more unattractive proposition.

You have not proven that DB is completely useless by any stretch of the imagination. Not only did you leave out numerous scenarios that occur all the time in the game, but you explicitly stated a singular goal as if no other possible goals exist.

Thankfully, considering that your assertion was that DB is completely useless, I only need to provide one example to prove you wrong, but I can provide numerous ones.

I have a condi spec and want to use D/D just because
I need to evade an attack and don’t have Endurance or Roll for Initiative slotted
I need to layer some quick condition damage to take down a mob with tough bark
I want to hit multiple enemies at one time and drain their health while I reposition

Einlanzer.1627:

You have not proven that DB is completely useless by any stretch of the imagination. Not only did you leave out numerous scenarios that occur all the time in the game, but you explicitly stated a singular goal as if no other possible goals exist.

Thankfully, considering that your assertion was that DB is completely useless, I only need to provide one example to prove you wrong, but I can provide numerous ones.

I have a condi spec and want to use D/D just because

We are not talking about a condi spec. That was made abundantly clear. The entire point of this conversation is how DB has no place in D/D because the rest of the set is clearly built for Power/crit, as DB is the only skill in the entirety of the set that gains anything palpable from condition damage. The quote in which you insisted “Yes, it is” literally starts the argument with “In a power/crit setup” Choosing to ignore that makes it painfully clear you’re not interested in a discussion, you’re just interested in “proving your point”. Unfortunately, you don’t really have a point that conforms to logic, so you can’t prove anything.

I need to evade an attack and don’t have Endurance or Roll for Initiative slotted

See above, where I specifically pointed out DB’s a poor choice for evading an attack due to poor evade frames and server latency.

I need to layer some quick condition damage to take down a mob with tough bark

See above where I mention how we’re talking about Power/crit specs, which is the design basis of every skill in D/D except for DB.

I want to hit multiple enemies at one time and drain their health while I reposition

Hey, that’s actually a scenario I didn’t list, thank you for that. Unfortunately DB isn’t a great tool to “reposition” as the leap is tiny and where you’ll land (and be vulnerable, thanks to DB’s kittenty evade frames) is conveniently in melee range of the things you just hit. I will admit though if you’re running SoM you can spend 4 init to gain some health while doing terrible damage. Just again, to make sure you get it, we’re talking about DB’s usefulness in a Power/crit spec, which is non-existant, because DB is USELESS IN A POWER/CRIT SPEC – No hyperbole needed.

I don’t think so Hesse.

Daggers as they stand are a very versatile set of weapons, and the Evade component of Death Blossom in addition to stealth is what closes the survivability gap that Thieves have with other classes.

Mobility and speed are the Thief’s primary means of staying alive in both PVE and PVP, and to change evade based skills is diminishing that gap.

I personally enjoy Death Blossom as it is a great deal (even have a PvE build around it and Caltrops, very effective in Silverwastes and the new story missions). If anything Dancing Dagger is the ability that needs the attention here.

We also need to consider the thematic and historical value of Death Blossom. DB was a Dual Attack for the Assassin Profession, or a finisher that attacked with both weapons (following in from Lead Attack > Off Hand > Dual Attack). Death Blossom towards the end of Guild Wars 1 was -the- absolute best Dual Attack in the game because of its cheap cost, quick recharge, and large damage to energy ratio (this thing could hit for 240 damage on every adjacent target if you had the right buffs) and was the staple behind literally every Dagger Spammer build in the game which were extremely popular.

In Guild Wars 2, Death Blossom is the Dual Ability for Dagger / Dagger, where it damages and bleeds nearby targets (like a good Dagger Spammer did (Spread Bleed and spam Death Blossom as much as possible)).

Dancing Dagger(s) however was the core attack in the -really- bad Caster Sin (it was horribly bad). Threw 3 projectiles and had half the range of a normal spell. It didn’t cripple, or bounce.

But that’s not the reason this thread exists. Like so many MMO threads the issue here is of an Operator nature.

Myx~

evilapprentice.6379:

Snippity

Then why does the 3rd ability chain on 1 inflict a long duration Poison? Why is this the only weapon set in the thief weapon group that can maintain 25 stacks of bleed with ease?

No, its simply that Sword is the Power/Crit weapon and you, like many people (myself included) don’t like Sword on the thief. D/D is a hybrid set, get over yourself.

EDIT: Saying Death Blossom is worthless is a hyperbole whether you intended it or not. — here’s a definition for you:

Hyperbole:
Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Kadin.2356:

CptnDrunk.8361:

D/D weapon set is fine as is… Id rather see S/P buffed or better trait changes to Acro line.
Changing DB would wreck a lot of condi thieves. I’ve fought some killer 3 spammers !

It’s not “fine” when 1/5 of your weapon options are useless. The weapon set as a whole might be ok at the moment (I’d argue that S/D and D/P outshine D/D imho) but having a completely useless skill can’t be “working as intended”.

Sure it can — Look at literally every aquatic weapon in the game.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Gudy.3607:

evilapprentice.6379:

Except it’s still a kittenty condition damage based move in a power/crit damage based set.

D/D is clearly not a hybrid set – it has exactly 1 skill that can do damage with conditions (no, poison on lotus strike is not a viable damage source for condition builds). That is not a hybrid set.

sigh There we go again. Yes, most of the D/D skills are direct damage. Death Blossom, though, provides some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game and an easy way to stack them so they do significant damage. I don’t think that this is an accident like some other skills in this game which provide bleeding as something of an afterthought. Which, yes, makes D/D a hybrid set, whether you want it to or not.

With the poison to reduce healing, the Heart Seeker as a (admittedly somewhat short-ranged) gap closer, Dancing Dagger helping both with getting close and getting away, and Cloak and Dagger for stealth access, that makes it a decent hybrid set, as far as these things go. Is it competitive in PvP? Probably not, from what I’m hearing, and something should perhaps be done about that. Changing the character of the whole set, especially when the Thief already has a bunch of pure power sets (S/P, S/D, D/P), does not strike me as the way to do so, though.

I don’t really see how a hybrid set would work with d/d. I can see it happening if db costs 0 initiative but, with the way it is atm, after you finish spamming DB to stack bleeds, you’re gonna be too low to do anything else.

Then as the bleeds come off, you’re gonna need to kittenain to maintain the pressure. That basically leads to a build in which you just spam DB 90% of the time.

You obviously haven’t played a D/D Condi Thief. When you run out of Initiative, you spam Roll until you can use DB more and spread Caltrops all over the floor. You take Infilitrator’s Signet, and the Acrobatic line to increase your Initiative Regen to 4 ips, and take Critical Strikes to regain Initiative on Crits.

D/D Condi is a very tanky build my friend.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYFl8Mp5pVOh+pJyJqtztAYB9qJ6uH2hhA-TRSAABKcEAES9noPEAzoPQMlfAcCAYa/hLeAAtpEMAwBA7u7u7u7ulCwcpRA-e

Death Blossom
20 initiative
you die. flowers blossom out of your corpse.
award the enemy team 65 points if in spvp, 250 in wvwvw, and grant chests with a chance at mystic clovers and precursors (and Marjory’s new dyes! HOLY kitten) to nearby allies in pve.
duration: until you get a new account.
radius: tyria, the mists
light combo field
blast finisher
grants stability.

Myxam.2790:

evilapprentice.6379:

Snippity

Then why does the 3rd ability chain on 1 inflict a long duration Poison?

Poison is a CONTROL CONDITION. It does pitiful damage because it’s intended to debuff heals, not deal respectable damage. You link me a spec that can kill a player by dealing primarily poison damage (not counting the damage the ability that applies the poison does), and I’ll show you the way into Narnia. The fact that you think this is a “point” that means anything shows a real lack of understanding.

Why is this the only weapon set in the thief weapon group that can maintain 25 stacks of bleed with ease?

Why does literally every other skill in the set not benefit in any meaningful way from condition damage?

No, its simply that Sword is the Power/Crit weapon and you, like many people (myself included) don’t like Sword on the thief. D/D is a hybrid set, get over yourself.

Quick, use D/D to deal condition damage capable of killing anything without spamming 3.
Oh wait.
D/D is not a hybrid set. No matter what skill you’re using, only 1 set of DPS Stats (power/crit, condition) is ever being counted for your damage, and only one skill uses condition damage.

EDIT: Saying Death Blossom is worthless is a hyperbole whether you intended it or not. — here’s a definition for you:

Hyperbole:
Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

My claims were intended to be taken literally and through use cases proven to be true. Don’t blame me for your lack of understanding. Also, please brush up on your reading comprehension, because the statement was, and I quote,

In a power/crit setup, DB is useless.

If you can’t be bothered to read, please don’t bother to post.

evilapprentice.6379:

Myxam.2790:

evilapprentice.6379:

Snippity

Then why does the 3rd ability chain on 1 inflict a long duration Poison?

Poison is a CONTROL CONDITION. It does pitiful damage because it’s intended to debuff heals, not deal respectable damage. You link me a spec that can kill a player by dealing primarily poison damage (not counting the damage the ability that applies the poison does), and I’ll show you the way into Narnia. The fact that you think this is a “point” that means anything shows a real lack of understanding.

Why is this the only weapon set in the thief weapon group that can maintain 25 stacks of bleed with ease?

Why does literally every other skill in the set not benefit in any meaningful way from condition damage?

No, its simply that Sword is the Power/Crit weapon and you, like many people (myself included) don’t like Sword on the thief. D/D is a hybrid set, get over yourself.

Quick, use D/D to deal condition damage capable of killing anything without spamming 3.
Oh wait.
D/D is not a hybrid set. No matter what skill you’re using, only 1 set of DPS Stats (power/crit, condition) is ever being counted for your damage, and only one skill uses condition damage.

EDIT: Saying Death Blossom is worthless is a hyperbole whether you intended it or not. — here’s a definition for you:

Hyperbole:
Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

My claims were intended to be taken literally and through use cases proven to be true. Don’t blame me for your lack of understanding. Also, please brush up on your reading comprehension, because the statement was, and I quote,

In a power/crit setup, DB is useless.

If you can’t be bothered to read, please don’t bother to post.

And what standard requires that the weapon perfectly meet one set of stats? I guess Elementalists, Necromancers, Mesmers, and Guardians are all just doing it wrong.

If you remove DB from Daggers, you take away the only viable condition set for Thieves, but I guess you in your infinite Zerkerness didn’t get the memo that P/P doesn’t do that well.

With the way they’re making content (Silverwastes) Zerker and Assassin are going to start falling out meta because they can’t live long enough.

There’s nothing wrong with Death Blossom.

evilapprentice.6379:

Before you post any further Deciever, please respond to this post from earlier in the thread. You made some pretty substantial claims that you were entirely incapable of
justifying. From what you’ve written here, it’s hard to believe you know the class well enough to weigh in on any balance decisions.

For the sake of clarity, here is the list of changes I suggested that you felt would “ruin D/X builds”

- Double strike – reduce damage scaling, add a 2-3s Bleed to each swing.
- Front stab (backstab from the front) – reduce damage scaling alot, add damaging conditions to compensate
- DB – lower bleed duration some, buff direct damage some
- Dancing Dagger – add torment, increase Init cost by 1.

Okay.

DS is part of the thief’s primary DPS rotation. It’s not part of the burst, but it’s part of the primary DPS. Removing the damage from this skill will reduce PvE viability as well as reduce finishing potential for power builds. It is always better to chain 1 -> 1 -> 2 over 1 -> 1 -> 1. In PvP formats, Double Strike also functions frequently as a finisher to bring down low health targets quickly. The damage that comes from this skill is fast and essential before allowing say a clutch heal/cleanse.

Front stab, sometimes you need that damage right then and there and can calculate whether or not it’s necessary to backstab or just hit them in the face instead. If can keep up with the math, you’ll know exactly how much a front-stab after CnD will hit for by doing the calculations in real-time based upon CnD damage. Not to mention landing a front-stab is inherently easier to do (so rewarding condi builds for… what exactly?), and DoT’s just don’t play into the premise of a setup designed for ending fights quickly due to lack of staying power.

Dancing Dagger is another essential skill for power stab builds. It’s got a solid-duration cripple that can let one close a gap relatively easy, and currently has a very nice niche. It’s a ranged finishing blow, an engage or disengage tool, and a projectile finisher. I believe DD, with the recent projectile speed increase, is a very useful skill to have for what it is, and I’ve always thought so. It already has enough potency as it stands for condition builds because of the cripple as well. P/D can really utilize the cripple to maintain perfect distance, and P/D already has spammable torment. Giving the build with the second-highest access to torment in the game even more access to torment is just silly and superfluous, especially when it comes from ranged and can bounce. The cripple itself is also useful enough even for existing DB 3 spammer condi builds to better lock down their foes such that more of the hits from DB resolve, or to force cleanses prematurely. Much like DB, I find that those who believe this skill as totally worthless have a lot more to learn. After a lot of testing and forcing myself to familiarize myself with using it an identifying what uses it has, I’ve found myself able to better handle encounters I used to struggle with.

These aren’t mean to be high-impact skills. That’s why Dancing got nerfed to begin with so long ago; it did too much. What these skills are meant to be are answers for situations that D/D as a set struggles with otherwise.

D/D is a set that emphasizes physical damage. I do not consider spamming 3 a build, or what should be a build strategy, or even a style of play. I call it a design oversight which can’t be reverted due to existing player investment and that the build itself is sub-optimal or in many regards, contrary to the design of what the class was supposed to do. DB is not junk, either. When used correctly, it acts as a nice evade frame when if say, a shortbow swap is not available such that it can be used with about-face and rear-facing camera to provide a similar effect as Disabling Shot. It requires much better timing, yes, but it does prevent the necessity from swapping to a utility weapon and waiting to swap back again for fast-response damage.

Continued…

What does D/D lack? Staying power and synergy with corresponding trait builds. Giving it a hybrid approach does not help the set function better. It brings down its currently somewhat-effective power build to being even less effective, and only makes its condition counterpart suck less. Hybrid builds don’t work without excessive might stacking, and that’s something that synergizes best with a pure damage stab build, anyways. Ask almost anyone running conditions on any level if it’s smarter to build celestial or Sinister over just dire. Ask the hybrid players if they think using Dire gear would just be better. They’ll respond that hybrid builds aren’t optimal performers because of the design of GW2. The “hybrid” approach is why P/P is a failing weapon combination. How do you resolve the shortcomings of a weapon set? By actually examining its weak points relative to other sets and builds, and finding an intermediary. I’d rather see the skill function as a small condition cleanse/return with no bleeds attached to it, or simply as a skill with a forced mobile evade (like whirlwind attack) than some kind of ultimately sub-par condition hybrid attempt. You’re talking about more than just DB here; you’re talking about skills which interact with other sets and builds. In a vacuum maybe it’s fine for those builds which are defined by using D/D, but I’m sorry but your ideas are just not acceptable ones when you bring the other sets into play and compare them relatively as well as with other classes while also truly learning the effectiveness and use of each individual skill available.

And to be so condescending to immediately assume I know nothing about the class by disagreeing with you, especially when you totally neglect to consider that the existing skills are working and are seeing their functionality improved on the basis of physical damage viability, and are already functional? I’m sorry, but who are you exactly to talk down to other people or dismiss their concerns altogether?

I want control over my character. I play D/D on the sheer principle that I can enter a fight knowing exactly how to respond to certain events and how to engage. Nobody’s perfect, obviously, and I do not claim to be, but to know exactly how much damage I need to deal and when is an absolutely essential part of playing this kind of build. This decision making is on the fly, but I know exactly what to expect. Adding in extra effects and reducing what is a perfectly acceptable design only makes play more difficult for everyone in the end. Trying to make weapon functionality and counterplay determined by style is not a good choice when it comes to a class than can and will engage with an upper hand and with surprise. I’m all for making the thief a competitive class, but being incapable of knowing what to expect for incoming damage – especially when one of the options is so punishing for getting hit at all – is just unfair and not good design. Facing another D/D thief would be next to impossible to know what to expect, since either you’re getting one-shotted by a build like mine if you don’t evade and re-position properly for a backstab, or are taking condition hits from the opposite direction and need to preserve stun breaks and condition cleanses for later.

evilapprentice.6379:

We are not talking about a condi spec. That was made abundantly clear. The entire point of this conversation is how DB has no place in D/D because the rest of the set is clearly built for Power/crit, as DB is the only skill in the entirety of the set that gains anything palpable from condition damage.

Right. So why are you re-working the entire weapon combination and subsequently other weapons as well? Get rid of the condition application part of the weapon if it’s designed around power, and make DB do something more useful than apply a few stacks of bleeds.

DB could afford some changes and alterations to help D/D be a more cohesive weapon set, but hybridizing it does nothing to solve these cohesion issues/weaknesses. I’d rather see the skills be mediocre than too strong individually due to the initiative system allowing for a lack of cooldowns. That’s why I refuse to acknowledge D/D 3 spam condi as a style of play or a legitimate build; it’s utilizing only on skill for everything it does and is almost exclusively measured by how “properly” one presses 3 or gets into stealth to heal. This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.