Guild Wars 2

evilapprentice is certainly correct about both poison and DB. Poison is equivalent to 2 stacks of bleed. It’s most likely going to get cleansed before it does any serious damage to anyone, but its strength lies in its ability to counter people’s sustain and recovery after burst. Damaging conditions either have a higher base or stack in intensity such as burning, bleeding, torment, and confusion. It’s very convenient that the base damage of poison (84) almost matches the base healing of regen while poisoned (~86), which is to say it’s mainly there to kill sustain.

Honestly you guys can keep saying that D/D is a hybrid (or condi), but it doesnt really have enough variety in it’s damaging conditions to be hybrid to make up for the loss in power. Look at the top cele classes that can make use of burning and bleeding, and then use sigil of doom to gain the advantage in prolonged fights. P/D is a decent hybrid/condi set, because it can constantly reapply steady damaging conditions, then put poison on top of it (when traited). Sure death blossom can burst long duration bleeds pretty well, but a single condi clear wipes out all the initiative spent building that. P/D can easily reapply the stack without having to expend initiative doing so, allowing them more flexibility to use their other weapon skills.

You can make up for D/D’s lack of damaging conditions with traits and runes, but you would honestly be more effective if you put that effort into bolstering a P/D build.

They don’t need to remove the bleeds from DB though if you guys think that would kill a spec you enjoy. Instead, just make it similar to warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3) so that it can be use better for evasion and has a skill shot on it for tactical repositioning. Keep the damage and the bleeds the same. Then it would have a purpose no mater what type of build you’re trying to use it in.

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice is certainly correct about both poison and DB. Poison is equivalent to 2 stacks of bleed. It’s most likely going to get cleansed before it does any serious damage to anyone, but its strength lies in its ability to counter people’s sustain and recovery after burst. Damaging conditions either have a higher base or stack in intensity such as burning, bleeding, torment, and confusion. It’s very convenient that the base damage of poison (84) almost matches the base healing of regen while poisoned (~86), which is to say it’s mainly there to kill sustain.

Honestly you guys can keep saying that D/D is a hybrid (or condi), but it doesnt really have enough variety in it’s damaging conditions to be hybrid to make up for the loss in power. Look at the top cele classes that can make use of burning and bleeding, and then use sigil of doom to gain the advantage in prolonged fights. P/D is a decent hybrid/condi set, because it can constantly reapply steady damaging conditions, then put poison on top of it (when traited). Sure death blossom can burst long duration bleeds pretty well, but a single condi clear wipes out all the initiative spent building that. P/D can easily reapply the stack without having to expend initiative doing so, allowing them more flexibility to use their other weapon skills.

You can make up for D/D’s lack of damaging conditions with traits and runes, but you would honestly be more effective if you put that effort into bolstering a P/D build.

They don’t need to remove the bleeds from DB though if you guys think that would kill a spec you enjoy. Instead, just make it similar to warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3) so that it can be use better for evasion and has a skill shot on it for tactical repositioning. Keep the damage and the bleeds the same. Then it would have a purpose no mater what type of build you’re trying to use it in.

I mentioned whirlwind in one of the above posts just now. I don’t agree the bleeds could stay the same, though, since a constantly-moving/weaving application of stacks of bleeding during spammed evades paired with utilities like roll for initiative and traited initiative gain on heal for a skill like withdraw would make this concept WAY too strong with far too little to counter it.

It’s why I’m against trying to justify the set as a hybrid one. It isn’t a hybrid set. DB is archaic from a design perspective that is no longer around in GW2. Hybrid setups have proven not to work, and are even harder to balance for the thief due to the dual skills having such a role. D/D shouldn’t be put in the position P/P is in now because of an awkward hybrid setup that is part underpowered part overpowered.

I think keeping weapons distinct in what they do is a really important factor of the game. It’d be like if Axe MH on warrior had a bleed on its auto-attack. Think of fighting a MH axe warrior, now. You won’t really know what he’s building until you get hit. And that hit could be a 13k eviscerate, or it could just be some bleeds. So you need to take extra precaution, and it makes combat more stand-off-ish and slower to escalate.

I get that people might want to have a melee condi weapon on the thief, and there shouldn’t be anything from stopping that, but I just don’t believe fundamentally changing the dagger to accommodate for other build types is a good idea.

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice is certainly correct about both poison and DB. Poison is equivalent to 2 stacks of bleed. It’s most likely going to get cleansed before it does any serious damage to anyone, but its strength lies in its ability to counter people’s sustain and recovery after burst. Damaging conditions either have a higher base or stack in intensity such as burning, bleeding, torment, and confusion. It’s very convenient that the base damage of poison (84) almost matches the base healing of regen while poisoned (~86), which is to say it’s mainly there to kill sustain.

Honestly you guys can keep saying that D/D is a hybrid (or condi), but it doesnt really have enough variety in it’s damaging conditions to be hybrid to make up for the loss in power. Look at the top cele classes that can make use of burning and bleeding, and then use sigil of doom to gain the advantage in prolonged fights. P/D is a decent hybrid/condi set, because it can constantly reapply steady damaging conditions, then put poison on top of it (when traited). Sure death blossom can burst long duration bleeds pretty well, but a single condi clear wipes out all the initiative spent building that. P/D can easily reapply the stack without having to expend initiative doing so, allowing them more flexibility to use their other weapon skills.

You can make up for D/D’s lack of damaging conditions with traits and runes, but you would honestly be more effective if you put that effort into bolstering a P/D build.

They don’t need to remove the bleeds from DB though if you guys think that would kill a spec you enjoy. Instead, just make it similar to warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3) so that it can be use better for evasion and has a skill shot on it for tactical repositioning. Keep the damage and the bleeds the same. Then it would have a purpose no mater what type of build you’re trying to use it in.

I mentioned whirlwind in one of the above posts just now. I don’t agree the bleeds could stay the same, though, since a constantly-moving/weaving application of stacks of bleeding during spammed evades paired with utilities like roll for initiative and traited initiative gain on heal for a skill like withdraw would make this concept WAY too strong with far too little to counter it.

It’s why I’m against trying to justify the set as a hybrid one. It isn’t a hybrid set. DB is archaic from a design perspective that is no longer around in GW2. Hybrid setups have proven not to work, and are even harder to balance for the thief due to the dual skills having such a role. D/D shouldn’t be put in the position P/P is in now because of an awkward hybrid setup that is part underpowered part overpowered.

I think keeping weapons distinct in what they do is a really important factor of the game. It’d be like if Axe MH on warrior had a bleed on its auto-attack. Think of fighting a MH axe warrior, now. You won’t really know what he’s building until you get hit. And that hit could be a 13k eviscerate, or it could just be some bleeds. So you need to take extra precaution, and it makes combat more stand-off-ish and slower to escalate.

I get that people might want to have a melee condi weapon on the thief, and there shouldn’t be anything from stopping that, but I just don’t believe fundamentally changing the dagger to accommodate for other build types is a good idea.

I figured just leave the bleeds because if it’s spammed like FS on S/D, the thief will be out of initiative in 4 seconds and most classes have a way to clear condis decently fast while we lack the variety to mantain cover conditions. Also the fact that it’s an aimed skill means that for the opponent to take all the bleeds, the thief is very good, or he isn’t. Either way the skill difference would become apparent quickly.

Alsoñ while i don’t like hybrid or condi thief myself, if someone else likes that style of gameplay (specifically DB bleeds ) I’d rather not destroy their fun entirely.

DeceiverX.8361:

Okay.

DS is part of the thief’s primary DPS rotation. It’s not part of the burst, but it’s part of the primary DPS. Removing the damage from this skill will reduce PvE viability as well as reduce finishing potential for power builds. It is always better to chain 1 -> 1 -> 2 over 1 -> 1 -> 1. In PvP formats, Double Strike also functions frequently as a finisher to bring down low health targets quickly. The damage that comes from this skill is fast and essential before allowing say a clutch heal/cleanse.

My suggestion was to add a 2 or 3 second bleed. The amount of base damage lost would be balanced such that power/crit specs lost almost nothing, made up by the bleeds. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough there.

Front stab, sometimes you need that damage right then and there and can calculate whether or not it’s necessary to backstab or just hit them in the face instead. If can keep up with the math, you’ll know exactly how much a front-stab after CnD will hit for by doing the calculations in real-time based upon CnD damage. Not to mention landing a front-stab is inherently easier to do (so rewarding condi builds for… what exactly?), and DoT’s just don’t play into the premise of a setup designed for ending fights quickly due to lack of staying power.

The risk to reward ratio on front stab is abysmal for a thief. If you’re winning fights by taking a revealed for a front stab, you can win without doing so. There’s no thief in the game who “counts on” the damage from front stab to win a fight. This change would leave D/D power/crit virtually unaffected while opening up the spec to hybrids.

Dancing Dagger is another essential skill for power stab builds. It’s got a solid-duration cripple that can let one close a gap relatively easy, and currently has a very nice niche. It’s a ranged finishing blow, an engage or disengage tool, and a projectile finisher. I believe DD, with the recent projectile speed increase, is a very useful skill to have for what it is, and I’ve always thought so.

Do we play the same game? Up until this recent patch Dancing dagger was a joke due to its poor projectile speed. You could take half a step in any direction and the skill would miss. That’s why it was buffed. Claiming it was “essential” for any build before the 27th is just silly. It also used to cost 4 init, so increasing it back up to 4 init would not completely break the set.

It already has enough potency as it stands for condition builds because of the cripple as well. P/D can really utilize the cripple to maintain perfect distance, and P/D already has spammable torment.

Again, you say things that make me wonder if you actually play the class. Please explain how a melee range skill that moves you 600 units away from your target is “spammable”. If you’re lucky, you’ll get 4 stacks on a player – unless you want to blow steal and Inf sig. Let’s also note that choosing to use Shadow stab puts you out of range for CnD, which denies P/D access to it’s best bleed stacker.

Giving the build with the second-highest access to torment in the game even more access to torment is just silly and superfluous, especially when it comes from ranged and can bounce.

Second-highest access to torment for a thief, which as it turns out isn’t all that much, as I pointed out above. Ignoring practicality to prove your point only weakens it.

The cripple itself is also useful enough even for existing DB 3 spammer condi builds to better lock down their foes such that more of the hits from DB resolve, or to force cleanses prematurely. Much like DB, I find that those who believe this skill as totally worthless have a lot more to learn. After a lot of testing and forcing myself to familiarize myself with using it an identifying what uses it has, I’ve found myself able to better handle encounters I used to struggle with.

Dancing dagger was only “useless” (I use quotes because it was never as bad as DB, even with the slower projectile speed) when the projectile speed prevented it from hitting anyone who had played the game for more than a week.

These aren’t mean to be high-impact skills. That’s why Dancing got nerfed to begin with so long ago; it did too much. What these skills are meant to be are answers for situations that D/D as a set struggles with otherwise.

I never said “make Dancing dagger a high impact skill”. I said “give it torment”. perhaps after playtesting, it was decided that DD should get 2-3 seconds of torment. That would offer a good balance between attrition damage and cover condition status.

D/D is a set that emphasizes physical damage. I do not consider spamming 3 a build, or what should be a build strategy, or even a style of play. I call it a design oversight which can’t be reverted due to existing player investment and that the build itself is sub-optimal or in many regards, contrary to the design of what the class was supposed to do.

Hey, we finally agree on something.

DB is not junk, either. When used correctly, it acts as a nice evade frame when if say, a shortbow swap is not available such that it can be used with about-face and rear-facing camera to provide a similar effect as Disabling Shot. It requires much better timing, yes, but it does prevent the necessity from swapping to a utility weapon and waiting to swap back again for fast-response damage.

And we’re right back to disagreeing. DB is not “a nice evade frame”. 250Ms of evade time is pitiful when you factor in natural human response time and server latency. Depending on the cast time of the skill you’re trying to dodge, you’d have to range between amazing split second timing and the ability to see the future to use DB as an evade successfully. Let’s not also forget the aftercast, which leaves you wide open for any player who’s seen DB used before.

DeceiverX.8361:

evilapprentice.6379:

We are not talking about a condi spec. That was made abundantly clear. The entire point of this conversation is how DB has no place in D/D because the rest of the set is clearly built for Power/crit, as DB is the only skill in the entirety of the set that gains anything palpable from condition damage.

Right. So why are you re-working the entire weapon combination and subsequently other weapons as well? Get rid of the condition application part of the weapon if it’s designed around power, and make DB do something more useful than apply a few stacks of bleeds.

DB could afford some changes and alterations to help D/D be a more cohesive weapon set, but hybridizing it does nothing to solve these cohesion issues/weaknesses. I’d rather see the skills be mediocre than too strong individually due to the initiative system allowing for a lack of cooldowns. That’s why I refuse to acknowledge D/D 3 spam condi as a style of play or a legitimate build; it’s utilizing only on skill for everything it does and is almost exclusively measured by how “properly” one presses 3 or gets into stealth to heal. This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.

Hey, I actually agree with you here. Unfortunately the thief community is stricken with some form of autism when it comes to D/D.

If you say “Look at how DB is the only skill that isn’t power/crit based. The set is obviously for Power/crit specs.”, you get droves of POHR players who scream about how spamming 3 in PvE is their way of life, and any change as such would be a travesty.

One thing they point out that I sort of agree with is that Thief already has a ton of power options. The only functional condition set is P/D, and it’s worthless in PvP.

A nice compromise would be turning D/D into a hybrid set that didn’t loose too much if you went straight power/crit, which I believe my suggestions achieves. You disagree.

D/D was very obviously designed to work as a hybrid set. There are some misconceptions people have and also things that have changed since the set was first designed that are probably contributing to this argument. One is that full condi specs weren’t really part of the initial design. Weapons were not really designed to be power, condition, or hybrid – they were all designed along a versatility spectrum. Some are almost pure power while others are very condi-friendly, but there is not really such a thing as full condi. Many people forget that AoE is part of this spectrum as well.

I also think some of the issue hinges around Poison not being designed correctly. It originally stacked in intensity then was redesigned to stack duration instead, which diminished the damage aspect and emphasized the control aspect. This probably unintentionally kitten a lot of sets that were originally designed to rely on it as part of a condition-based build. With this change, they should have at least made it scale much better with condition damage, but didn’t.

Anyway, the solution is not to turn D/D into a pure power set, because Thieves have plenty of options for that already, nor is it to redesign DB from the ground up, because it’s actually a very good skill and D/D gains more by having it than it would gain by having another power-only skill. The solution is to re-balance the power and condition aspects of the set as a whole. Here are a few thoughts -

a.) Partially restore the damage on Dancing Dagger. The post-launch nerf was needlessly egregious (50%, when 25% would have been more appropriate)
b.) Increase the reliability of the evade on Death Blossom so that it’s useful in any build as an extra dodge (actually, several extra dodges)
c.) Increase the viability of Poison as a damaging condition. This would require a large scope balancing pass but, IMO, is something that needs to happen. OR:
d.) Add a stack of Torment to the 2nd attack in the chain.

The other thing to keep in mind is that people are always trying to compare weapon skills in a vacuum, as if utility skills don’t exist. You complement your utility skills with your build. The reason D/D works better as a condi set than people realize is because Thieves have above average condi-based utility skills that can synergize with it.

It’s also important to realize that D/D does not suck. It’s highly functional in PvE and variably functional in PvP. Its main weakness is the emphasis on long duration bleeds, which are likely to be cleansed in PvP. However, it is also much better for small scale skirmishes than P/D regardless of game mode, while P/D is superior in 1v1 for PvP. I don’t really see much of a problem with that.

DeceiverX.8361:

This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.

Capitalizing on one strength repeatedly is actually one of the main purposes of the Initiative system. There’s nothing innately wrong with DB spam just because you don’t like it. It’s enormously effective in PvE and occasionally effective in PvP. You don’t get to dismiss an entire aspect of the game (that, frankly, more people play and comprises a much bigger part of the gameplay) just because you don’t play it.

Read the post above for a more thorough breakdown of where we are with D/D.

Einlanzer.1627:

DeceiverX.8361:

This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.

Capitalizing on one strength repeatedly is actually one of the main purposes of the Initiative system. There’s nothing innately wrong with DB spam just because you don’t like it. It’s enormously effective in PvE and occasionally effective in PvP. You don’t get to dismiss an entire aspect of the game (that, frankly, more people play and comprises a much bigger part of the gameplay) just because you don’t play it.

Read the post above for a more thorough breakdown of where we are with D/D.

Except it isn’t. The initiative system, and subsequently our low health pools and high mobility, were created to allow for thief players to do any desired skill at any time given the initiative as a means of reacting better to specific circumstances. By design, the class has an in-and-out in its fighting style, and can’t bank on a 10s cooldown being ready in that few moments when your opponent doesn’t have protection, stability, immunities, berserker stance, etc. Skill spamming is why CnD got nerfed in PvP, HS’s damage got nerfed on the high end my a huge margin, IoS got nerfed on initiative refund due to HS spamming, FS was changed entirely from permament evasion to a two-part skill, CG reveals… I could continue.

It’s also not effective in PvE. Unless you’re playing open world in areas flooded by trash mobs, there is quite literally zero purpose to spam DB. Go to the top-tier PvE thieves and they will scoff at that kind of comment.

Spamming 3 for Death blossom for condition stacks is NOT a valid way to play, and in all honesty shouldn’t be. Until Colin Johanson comes out and states that D/D thief was meant as being a hybrid build, I’m sorry but you have zero evidence to make this kind of claim. This quick-response system is why I posted the above as well. These skills aren’t mean for primary use/damage spam. These skills are meant to augment weaknesses in the build itself. For D/P, it’s HS’s interrupting ability and stickiness potential with blinds for sustained fights. D/D is an aggressive melee physical damage set. Its weakness is staying power, which is alright, for D/P is focused a bit more on that, but it’s simply too weak at the moment in terms of its ability to synergize with corresponding trait builds to become more viable. Much like P/P, though, you can’t just go around changing the 1/2/4/5 skills since those are already fine or very strong on other builds. DB is what genuinely needs a bit of work to make the set as a whole more viable. The only reason D/D is viable is because of PvE trash mobs getting hit hard by cloak and dagger such that damage can be dealt while stealthing up and the initiative cost is lower such that upon reveal the thief gets access to First Strikes applying to RT and HS’s, and because D/D can spike glass in WvW because armor values aren’t inflated and power/crit scaling as well as CnD hasn’t been nerfed into oblivion like it has in sPvP.

Regarding the comment about front-stabbing: I do it intentionally all the time. If your foe is at 33% from a cloak and dagger, and you get clutch Immobilized by say, a ranger, is it smart to just stand there useless while in stealth waiting to die, or burn additional skills and utilities to try and re-position for a backstab after he heals? NO. If your CnD got him that low, the stab will finish him off, even from the front. What’s better, trying to maybe not die by doing nothing in hopes you don’t get focused, or just finishing the person right there and then?

Regarding Dancing Dagger, it wasn’t viable so much as a 900 range DPS tool or long-range poke, no, but it did offer tons of utility in terms of escape prevention. It would have issues left/right, but its frontal honing was absolutely fine. The number of nike warriors trying to run away I’ve killed by a well-placed Dancing Dagger early on to reduce rush, wwa, and charge has proven the skill as invaluable to me, even sitting on 4 initiative. We’re back on the spamming thing again as well, such that I don’t believe any skill should be spammed for damage.

DD had to be nerfed in its damage because before the nerf it did more damage than a backstab if two people even stood remotely close to each other. A 900 range projectile cripple that could be thrown twice from stealth before the first even connected was just silly and broken.

There are a lot of options for power sets at the moment. But that could just be how the weapon sets were designed and catered to for the target audience. What’s stopping more weapon releases, especially with specializations coming out? I mean mesmers are literally in the same exact spot in regards to a melee condition weapon. Do you see them complaining? No. They don’t because the melee option doesn’t even have a condition tied to it except for a brief immobilize. There’s no point in trying to re-invent the wheel, here.

Regarding the proposed change for front stab, I think that was an issue with clarity as well. “Applying conditions” is pretty ambiguous. Seeing as it would still be a conditional thing like backstab, I was under the impression you were referring to a heavy bomb to parallel the effects of backstab when it is hit from behind as well as to compensate for lost damage. Obviously I still disagree with the notion, because sometimes the front stab is absolutely necessary and that damage is needed precisely then (otherwise the enemy might just backstep and heal).

DeceiverX.8361:

Regarding the comment about front-stabbing: I do it intentionally all the time. If your foe is at 33% from a cloak and dagger, and you get clutch Immobilized by say, a ranger, is it smart to just stand there useless while in stealth waiting to die, or burn additional skills and utilities to try and re-position for a backstab after he heals? NO. If your CnD got him that low, the stab will finish him off, even from the front. What’s better, trying to maybe not die by doing nothing in hopes you don’t get focused, or just finishing the person right there and then?

You’ll be able to find a number niche situations where you can use frontstab, but they’re exceptions to the rule. I could concoct a dozen scenarios where Hard to Catch would benefit a thief, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an awful, kittenty trait that should never have seen the light of day. You’re in stealth AND you’re not running SE AND you have no condition cleanse AND you don’t have inf sig/SS AND you can’t switch to Shbow AND your target is at low health AND he remains in your immobilized melee range is an awfully specific situation, and you’re just not going to see situations that specifically tailored to frontstabs often enough for it to matter. Additionally, any ranger who immobilizes you and then stands in melee range anyway is a bad player, and effectiveness against bad players is not a good benchmarking tool. The fact is that my proposed change has an extremely minor impact on D/D, and when combined with my other suggestions, turns D/D into a set you can use as either power/crit OR hybrid effectively.

Regarding Dancing Dagger, it wasn’t viable so much as a 900 range DPS tool or long-range poke, no, but it did offer tons of utility in terms of escape prevention. It would have issues left/right, but its frontal honing was absolutely fine. The number of nike warriors trying to run away I’ve killed by a well-placed Dancing Dagger early on to reduce rush, wwa, and charge has proven the skill as invaluable to me, even sitting on 4 initiative. We’re back on the spamming thing again as well, such that I don’t believe any skill should be spammed for damage.

Again, how something works against bad players is a poor benchmark. Any warrior with half a brain would run away from a D/D thief at an angle, because pre-patch it guaranteed that DDag wouldn’t hit.

DD had to be nerfed in its damage because before the nerf it did more damage than a backstab if two people even stood remotely close to each other. A 900 range projectile cripple that could be thrown twice from stealth before the first even connected was just silly and broken.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger
Dancing dagger lost 50% of its damage, so it’s multiplier used to be 1.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
Dancing dagger never did “more damage than a backstab”.
I’m not offering an opinion on the damage nerf (though I am curious as to why you brought it up), I’m just pointing out the inaccuracy.

Those aren’t unreasonable scenarios, frankly. And that goes back to staying power and whatnot. Get caught in a sustained fight and you’ll likely be in that position.

Also note that a ranger who roots you and stays in melee range isn’t a bad player. Unless you’d like to just state that all S/x rangers or classes that use an immob and go in on melee are bad lol.

Running at an “angle” doesn’t help. If you keep your camera forward as the thief, the skill would travel forward, thus making it land. You’re implying the war would need to do a zig-zag via WWS + rush and the dagger would need to be thrown delayed such that the skill would miss. Otherwise it should and would have always landed. Nike war just doesn’t move that way.

You just verified that DD on two targets would hit harder than a stab from the bounce. It’d end up with almost twice the base value and about 18% less scaling due to the bounces returning on the original target. Not to mention it hits both targets this way. Two thieves could wipe an entire party this way by using SR on both and both pressing 4 → 4.

If I were to use the old DD now, each bounce would deal around 6000 damage on a given target. That’s 12k per person in a group of two on what was once still 8 init, versus 12 from CnD stabs over a much longer period of time with no paired cripple.

The post was a mixed reply to your and Ein’s criticisms over my post. Ein stated the damage nerf was overdone and two years ago when the nerf actually occurred, that it was unnecessary.

DeceiverX.8361:

Those aren’t unreasonable scenarios, frankly. And that goes back to staying power and whatnot. Get caught in a sustained fight and you’ll likely be in that position.

Watch any D/X thief in any tournament and count the number of times they front stab, then get back to me.

Also note that a ranger who roots you and stays in melee range isn’t a bad player. Unless you’d like to just state that all S/x rangers or classes that use an immob and go in on melee are bad lol.

You are in stealth in this scenario. What exactly are they fighting?

Running at an “angle” doesn’t help. If you keep your camera forward as the thief, the skill would travel forward, thus making it land. You’re implying the war would need to do a zig-zag via WWS + rush and the dagger would need to be thrown delayed such that the skill would miss. Otherwise it should and would have always landed. Nike war just doesn’t move that way.

Oh my god, you don’t actually know how DD works, do you?

You just verified that DD on two targets would hit harder than a stab from the bounce. It’d end up with almost twice the base value and about 18% less scaling due to the bounces returning on the original target. Not to mention it hits both targets this way. Two thieves could wipe an entire party this way by using SR on both and both pressing 4 -> 4.

If I were to use the old DD now, each bounce would deal around 6000 damage on a given target. That’s 12k per person in a group of two on what was once still 8 init, versus 12 from CnD stabs over a much longer period of time with no paired cripple.

The post was a mixed reply to your and Ein’s criticisms over my post. Ein stated the damage nerf was overdone and two years ago when the nerf actually occurred, that it was unnecessary.

I’m sorry, I naturally assumed we were comparing backstab to 1 DD (pre damage nerf), not 2, because comparing it to 2 is asinine.

DeceiverX.8361:

Einlanzer.1627:

DeceiverX.8361:

This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.

Capitalizing on one strength repeatedly is actually one of the main purposes of the Initiative system. There’s nothing innately wrong with DB spam just because you don’t like it. It’s enormously effective in PvE and occasionally effective in PvP. You don’t get to dismiss an entire aspect of the game (that, frankly, more people play and comprises a much bigger part of the gameplay) just because you don’t play it.

Read the post above for a more thorough breakdown of where we are with D/D.

Except it isn’t. The initiative system, and subsequently our low health pools and high mobility, were created to allow for thief players to do any desired skill at any time given the initiative as a means of reacting better to specific circumstances. By design, the class has an in-and-out in its fighting style, and can’t bank on a 10s cooldown being ready in that few moments when your opponent doesn’t have protection, stability, immunities, berserker stance, etc. Skill spamming is why CnD got nerfed in PvP, HS’s damage got nerfed on the high end my a huge margin, IoS got nerfed on initiative refund due to HS spamming, FS was changed entirely from permament evasion to a two-part skill, CG reveals… I could continue.

It’s also not effective in PvE. Unless you’re playing open world in areas flooded by trash mobs, there is quite literally zero purpose to spam DB. Go to the top-tier PvE thieves and they will scoff at that kind of comment.

Spamming 3 for Death blossom for condition stacks is NOT a valid way to play, and in all honesty shouldn’t be. Until Colin Johanson comes out and states that D/D thief was meant as being a hybrid build, I’m sorry but you have zero evidence to make this kind of claim. This quick-response system is why I posted the above as well. These skills aren’t mean for primary use/damage spam. These skills are meant to augment weaknesses in the build itself. For D/P, it’s HS’s interrupting ability and stickiness potential with blinds for sustained fights. D/D is an aggressive melee physical damage set. Its weakness is staying power, which is alright, for D/P is focused a bit more on that, but it’s simply too weak at the moment in terms of its ability to synergize with corresponding trait builds to become more viable. Much like P/P, though, you can’t just go around changing the 1/2/4/5 skills since those are already fine or very strong on other builds. DB is what genuinely needs a bit of work to make the set as a whole more viable. The only reason D/D is viable is because of PvE trash mobs getting hit hard by cloak and dagger such that damage can be dealt while stealthing up and the initiative cost is lower such that upon reveal the thief gets access to First Strikes applying to RT and HS’s, and because D/D can spike glass in WvW because armor values aren’t inflated and power/crit scaling as well as CnD hasn’t been nerfed into oblivion like it has in sPvP.

You are very, very obtuse and I can’t really continue this discussion with you in good conscience.

Its already in the game. In the new living story, you can become a thief and get a skill called “reverse blossom” which evades and reflect projectile.

To be fair, Rush has a point. I don’t think any of you have played a caltrops d/d point bleed thief. It’s fantastic, and many of these suggestions would outright break it. Adding damage would be the only solution, or extending the Evade frame.

Viking Jorun.5413:

To be fair, Rush has a point. I don’t think any of you have played a caltrops d/d point bleed thief. It’s fantastic, and many of these suggestions would outright break it. Adding damage would be the only solution, or extending the Evade frame.

It’s actually the best pure bleed set-up in the game, which a lot of people don’t seem to get. The only real legitimate complaint about D/D is that bleed is the only condition is has, making it too much of a liability in PvP with the over-availability of cleansing.

Personally, I think they should probably nerf cleansing some.

So we have pvp scrubs vs pve scrubs kittening back and forth. Why not settle in the middle and split the ability between pve and pvp??

evilapprentice.6379:

DeceiverX.8361:

Those aren’t unreasonable scenarios, frankly. And that goes back to staying power and whatnot. Get caught in a sustained fight and you’ll likely be in that position.

Watch any D/X thief in any tournament and count the number of times they front stab, then get back to me.

Also note that a ranger who roots you and stays in melee range isn’t a bad player. Unless you’d like to just state that all S/x rangers or classes that use an immob and go in on melee are bad lol.

You are in stealth in this scenario. What exactly are they fighting?

Running at an “angle” doesn’t help. If you keep your camera forward as the thief, the skill would travel forward, thus making it land. You’re implying the war would need to do a zig-zag via WWS + rush and the dagger would need to be thrown delayed such that the skill would miss. Otherwise it should and would have always landed. Nike war just doesn’t move that way.

Oh my god, you don’t actually know how DD works, do you?

You just verified that DD on two targets would hit harder than a stab from the bounce. It’d end up with almost twice the base value and about 18% less scaling due to the bounces returning on the original target. Not to mention it hits both targets this way. Two thieves could wipe an entire party this way by using SR on both and both pressing 4 -> 4.

If I were to use the old DD now, each bounce would deal around 6000 damage on a given target. That’s 12k per person in a group of two on what was once still 8 init, versus 12 from CnD stabs over a much longer period of time with no paired cripple.

The post was a mixed reply to your and Ein’s criticisms over my post. Ein stated the damage nerf was overdone and two years ago when the nerf actually occurred, that it was unnecessary.

I’m sorry, I naturally assumed we were comparing backstab to 1 DD (pre damage nerf), not 2, because comparing it to 2 is asinine.

They don’t front-stab because usually they can’t afford one. A lot of players do not even have points in critical strikes now, making the backstab damage similar to an HK’ed front stab if it doesn’t crit. And in sPvP, most people can’t afford a front stab, seeing as the damage in general is so nerfed in the format and toughness values/durability values are so much higher than in PvE/WvW. My frontstab in WvW does 6-10k. If you want to tell me that that kind of damage isn’t substantial, I’m sorry but there’s no helping you.

Do you play ranger? Entangle ignores stealth altogether. It hits anything in its range. S/x ranger also tracks stealth naturally on its auto-chain, even moving stealthed targets. Perma-cripple on S/D often makes it pretty dang hard to run around your target this way seeing as it takes longer and they remain on you the whole time while most importantly facing you. The options against a good S/D ranger are either reset or kill them facing forwards. With any luck, my mug + CnD also hits for another 4k + 8k or so, totaling 20k with a front stab. Double Strike and a HS and that ranger is on the ground dead and with myself at low health. No more auto-targeting allows for a stealth/heal recovery since the pet won’t track. Trying to flank in a fight like that is pointless.

Please enlighten me as to how basic geometry works. I’ve never once had an issue with DD missing unless the target was out of range. Center your camera and align with the angle they’re moving in. Throw while jumping for extra range and reliability. I think it’s you who’s really failing to understand how this skill works.

I’m not referring to using two DD’s. I was referring to a “group of two” players. DD can hit the same target more than once from its bounces. That’s why it was overpowered; it used to be such that if you used the skill against a group of two players, it would hit each player for 5k + 5k damage. With the lower projectile speed, it wasn’t uncommon for people to use SR -> stalk and get close -> DD -> DD again during the first’s mid-air flight such that you wouldn’t get revealed before casting the second, causing both to land and deal around 20k total damage to each player within a time frame of less than a second. Now do this with just two thieves; a group of four will go to downed state from nowhere. This is why DD’s damage got nerfed to begin with; it was just too good in scenarios while against more than one player, which is why I targeted that response toward’s Ein’s statement about the damage nerf being unnecessary. It genuinely and absolutely was.

Maybe a trait that removes the bleeding component, but increases the direct damage? Or maybe make it a two-stage skill with Death Blossom being the first stage and the new Death Bloom dealing increased physical damage?

Too many Thief skills need buffs or redesigns though. Most Venoms, most Traps, most Tricks, P/P…

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Why do you feel this way, though? Only because there is a bleed built into the set’s hybrid skill?

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

I really don’t get what the issue is either. Who out there plays condi D/D? I haven’t heard anyone stand up and say that yet and I’ve certainly never seen it in game. If no1 uses it in that manner then that whole argument is moot. The only thing left is people arguing just to be argumentative Aka trolls.

I’ve stumbled across but one condi D/D player in my entirety of GW2 WvW’ing.

His effectiveness was there if you had no escapes, but otherwise all he did was spam 3 and do nothing but spam 3 because free evade frames. He was unskilled, useless to everyone else on the map, and frankly, a rather insulting excuse to what the set and the rest of the class have to offer.

Grinex, I think you typo’ed D/P meaning P/D, though. D/P is also a power build :P

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

Wrong. First of all, PvP isn’t the only game mode and you don’t start the game at level 80 with Ascended gear.

Secondly, I’ve already posted on this, but people have this small-minded need to create False Dichotomies between power weapons and condi weapons when that’s obviously not how the game was designed.

Weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility along different spectra (single-target or AoE, physical damage or condition damage). Most weapons have some capability with all play-styles but emphasize one over others to varying degrees.

The fact that D/D has Poison and potent Bleed stacking ability means quite simply that it was designed as a single-target primary versatile/hybrid with respect to damage type. I don’t care what anybody’s arguments are that Poison is a control condition and that the Bleed stacking is weak/useless.

It’s designed to be versatile. If you refuse to see this then, frankly, you’re blinded by myopia.

DeceiverX.8361:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Why do you feel this way, though? Only because there is a bleed built into the set’s hybrid skill?

It’s actually because I like to experiment with builds and weapons a lot rather than being pigeon-holed into a highly specific play-style through needless restrictions. This is doubly true given the lack of weapon options Thieves have.

I want to be able to make use of as much as I can across as many builds and as many game-play modes as I can. Lightning will shoot from my eyes if one more min/maxed obsessed PvP-only scrub insinuates that that isn’t a legitimate way to play the game.

Einlanzer.1627:

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

Wrong. First of all, PvP isn’t the only game mode and you don’t start the game at level 80 with Ascended gear.

Secondly, I’ve already posted on this, but people have this small-minded need to create False Dichotomies between power weapons and condi weapons when that’s obviously not how the game was designed.

Weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility along different spectra (single-target or AoE, physical damage or condition damage). Most weapons have some capability with all play-styles but emphasize one over others to varying degrees.

The fact that D/D has Poison and potent Bleed stacking ability means quite simply that it was designed as a single-target primary versatile/hybrid with respect to damage type. I don’t care what anybody’s arguments are that Poison is a control condition and that the Bleed stacking is weak/useless.

It’s designed to be versatile. If you refuse to see this then, frankly, you’re blinded by myopia.

The problem is is that D/D does not have the condition diversity to make it into either a hybrid or condi set. Look at the 3 (main) cele classes. They have at least 2 damaging conditions and can add the utility of poison through sigils. P/D has access to 2 damaging conditions and the stealth skill require CnD which creates somewhat of a cover condition. Making the set synergize better. Even the dual skill has more synergy as it has over double the multiplier as well as decent damage and a gap creator all built in. If you want to talk about tagging multiple mobs, pistolwhip works much better for the initiative spent, since the multiplier is much higher and the evade lasts for ~50% of the total time. Also that weaponset naturally cleaves one more target than daggers do.

It’s not myopic or short sighted to look at D/D and come to the conclusion that it is limited compared to what other classes have available to hybrid builds. It’s just realistic.

Also, if you think D/D is a hybrid /condi build, look at D/X and X/D when not paired together. D/X is focused around power and utility; X/D is focused around power and utility. Only when D/D #3 is looked at do we magically see it become condi focused. When only 1/5 skills in a set can be considered a condi skill, it’s out of place in the set.

Even though that’s my view on it, I’m not advocating removing the bleeds from it. Simply making the skill have more utility and a better animation would bring it up to par with the other dual skills.

Edit: I just realized that you were talking about how strong the single target bleed is, and that’s actually a worse argument than advocating it as multitarget. Look at ele scepter which is able to maintain 9 stacks of bleed with their auto attack at 900 range. Look at warrior’s sword auto and it’s bleeds that can be extended greatly with a single trait. There are much better single target bleeds in the game that don’t need to dump their global cooldowns in building the stack because it is so easily removed.

DeceiverX.8361:

Grinex, I think you typo’ed D/P meaning P/D, though. D/P is also a power build :P

Yes, my bad I meant P/D xD.

Einlanzer.1627:

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

Wrong. First of all, PvP isn’t the only game mode and you don’t start the game at level 80 with Ascended gear.

Secondly, I’ve already posted on this, but people have this small-minded need to create False Dichotomies between power weapons and condi weapons when that’s obviously not how the game was designed.

Weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility along different spectra (single-target or AoE, physical damage or condition damage). Most weapons have some capability with all play-styles but emphasize one over others to varying degrees.

The fact that D/D has Poison and potent Bleed stacking ability means quite simply that it was designed as a single-target primary versatile/hybrid with respect to damage type. I don’t care what anybody’s arguments are that Poison is a control condition and that the Bleed stacking is weak/useless.

It’s designed to be versatile. If you refuse to see this then, frankly, you’re blinded by myopia.

I wasn’t talking about PVP only, and I never mentioned anything about ascended gear or level 80 but this discussion is about end game, every weapon set ability works just fine early levels for pve, I agree with you, weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility and like I said thats fine at lower levels but end game content doesn’t work like that, condition damage thief for pve is next to useless and D/D condition based is even more useless, D/D is only useful for stealth and backstab bosses which works better with zerker gear, people don’t create false dichotomies like you say, thats the current meta, people either go condi build or power build with just a few going hybrid and the thief profession is actually the worst at it, and again just because you don’t care or you refuse to care doesn’t make your argument any better POISON is not a damage scaling condition period, its like saying D/P is hybrid also because it has poison and blind….. oh really…. tell me how good your condition damage is ?…. DB has nice bleed stacking BUT it goes to waste with a simple condi cleanse which every profession in this game has and lots of it and you my friend are out of initiative with nothing else to do but die…..

only question i have about this skill is, why is it condition based
except devs want it to be carrion, cele set?

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

Wrong. First of all, PvP isn’t the only game mode and you don’t start the game at level 80 with Ascended gear.

Secondly, I’ve already posted on this, but people have this small-minded need to create False Dichotomies between power weapons and condi weapons when that’s obviously not how the game was designed.

Weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility along different spectra (single-target or AoE, physical damage or condition damage). Most weapons have some capability with all play-styles but emphasize one over others to varying degrees.

The fact that D/D has Poison and potent Bleed stacking ability means quite simply that it was designed as a single-target primary versatile/hybrid with respect to damage type. I don’t care what anybody’s arguments are that Poison is a control condition and that the Bleed stacking is weak/useless.

It’s designed to be versatile. If you refuse to see this then, frankly, you’re blinded by myopia.

I wasn’t talking about PVP only, and I never mentioned anything about ascended gear or level 80 but this discussion is about end game, every weapon set ability works just fine early levels for pve, I agree with you, weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility and like I said thats fine at lower levels but end game content doesn’t work like that, condition damage thief for pve is next to useless and D/D condition based is even more useless, D/D is only useful for stealth and backstab bosses which works better with zerker gear, people don’t create false dichotomies like you say, thats the current meta, people either go condi build or power build with just a few going hybrid and the thief profession is actually the worst at it, and again just because you don’t care or you refuse to care doesn’t make your argument any better POISON is not a damage scaling condition period, its like saying D/P is hybrid also because it has poison and blind….. oh really…. tell me how good your condition damage is ?…. DB has nice bleed stacking BUT it goes to waste with a simple condi cleanse which every profession in this game has and lots of it and you my friend are out of initiative with nothing else to do but die…..

I never specifically made any arguments about its single-target viability. It’s clearly more useful in an AoE situation, but, regardless, Death Blossom can layer 9-12 stacks of bleed (on multiple targets at one time) with relative ease, and the bleeds last long enough that you can regain your Initiative and mop up with Heartseeker or whatever while the bleeds are still ticking. On top of that, no other class has access to a utility as potent at bleed stacking as Caltrops, which in PvE is extremely easy to layer on top of DB, and you’re doing it wrong if you don’t do it in just about every fight.

I’m not a zealot – I understand the concerns about how much of a liability it is in PvP (because, honestly, condition clearing in PvP is a bit overpowered). But, a.) it isn’t nearly as much of an issue in PvE, and b.) the simple truth is – if you just look at bleed stacking in vacuum, Caltrops + DB does it better than literally everything else in the game. The fact that you guys somehow don’t realize this makes it hard to even take your arguments seriously.

The other thing is that everyone seems to be forgetting that other conditions are available through sigils, traits and utilities to shore up the weakness of bleed-only stacking in PvP.

I mean has anyone here ever honestly tried a rampagers sigil of torment build? Both the auto-attack on D/D and Death Blossom land attacks very quickly, making proc-based builds have above-average effectiveness relative to most other sets. This also carries strong synergy with Needle Trap, especially since it was significantly buffed in the last patch.

one thing i have to mention tho
is that DB in current stat helped me a lot during leveling haha

Condition clearing isn’t “overpowered” in PvP.

Builds with excessive clearing are “overpowered” because berserker/DPS builds are actually substantially underpowered relative to the ease-of-use and just downright efficiency/damage throughputs of condition builds. Celestial Ele, terrormancer, condi engi, and a lot of mesmer builds are only in the format from condition damage shutting down the old builds in the format and their ability to just do better than pure-damage sets.

As far as bleed stacking goes, I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure my S/S war does a LOT better than D/D 3spam caltrops, and I can move around/my enemy can move around while still taking permanent 25 stacks of bleed with a better DPS nuke than backstab + torment, burning, a block/reflect, better sustained defense, better cleansing, better control conditions, and better AoE potential.

Thing is, S/S warrior was a designed condition build if mainhanding it. D/D was not. Turning S/S into a power weapon because reasons is not justified in changing the style for everyone else. The same goes with changing mesmer sword MH to a condition weapon (as sword mainhand offers zero conditions outside of iLeap).

Cool you don’t want to be pigeon-holed. I want to play D/D on full power scaling. I play the most aggressive DPS/DPH weapon set in the game with the most aggressive DPS build in the game because I want to play the most aggressive DPS weapon set in the game. Not because I want to play a hybrid.

This debate is literally a matter of opinion and frankly, more D/D players are going to support full power options over some condition crap because a minority wants it to spam 3 harder on a build which rightfully should not even exist or be even remotely viable.

If DB didn’t apply bleeds that stacked so quickly relative to most other options, we wouldn’t be discussing this. D/D is a power set, and deserves to be a power set. Want condition variety? ANet is developing a new framework for new weapon sets for each class via specializations. Demand your new melee condition weapon there and maybe you’ll have reasonable support for a reasonable proposal.

DeceiverX.8361:

snip

Sorry man, but your entire argument hinges on nothing more than one gigantic False Dichotomy, and your inability to see the nuances of the set is troubling. Very, very few people would agree that D/D is not intended to be a versatile/hybrid set, even if tends to work better with one over the other, mostly because it’s completely obvious that it is.

Not only does Warrior S/S not really beat DB (one DB sets up twice the bleed damage of the Sword chain in half the time, along with evading attacks), but Warriors (unlike Thieves) have no strong condi-based utility skills to supplement the bleeds from their weapon skills. Moreover, after laying down a full stack of bleeds with DB, Caltrops and/or Needle Trap, you can immediately switch to AA and Heartseeker and start dishing out much more significant physical damage while your bleeds are ticking than you could manage with S/S.

I just don’t know how else to say it – you guys that are always ragging on DB are looking at the set very myopically and really have no idea what you’re talking about. D/D’s power game is mostly fine, and the only reason its condi game isn’t particularly competitive in PvP is due to the effectiveness of condition clearing. It’s borderline OP in PvE (not including cap issues), and even in PvP can be more effective than people realize.

You keep hilariously acting as if I’m the unreasonable one “making demands” that it not be dramatically changed just to suit your play-style. You’re the one demanding radical adjustments, not me, so the burden of demonstrating why those should be made is on you, not on me for defending why it shouldn’t.

Simon.3794:

only question i have about this skill is, why is it condition based except devs want it to be carrion, cele set?

Damaging conditions work really well on utility skills for power based builds, and vice versa. It’s an alternative to giving things truly pathetic damage ratios to compensate for their utility that opens up some additional play for builds that want to focus on those skills. That’s totally fine, except they went and nerfed the utility of the skill early on while keeping the bleeds intact. An evasion skill that leaves behind a few stacks of bleed instead of slightly higher power damage is totally usable, but that’s just not what it is any more.

You could make the same argument for putting bleeding or torment onto Dancing Dagger – it’s a utility skill that you use for purposes other than big damage, so moving some of the power damage into condition damage that doesn’t scale as well is just fine and gives some alternative play.

We aren’t just talking about PvP. Lol. The reason you don’t see it in meta builds is obvious – Condi D/d is not generally considered (I wouldn’t necessarily agree) “optimal” in PvP for various reasons – burst > sustain, efficacy of condition clearing, and human reactivity. Above all, meta is focused on simple min/maxing through a narrow lens based on ttk vs a single target, while hybrids are about general usability, versatility, and strength in unconventional tactics , so of course straightforward power builds are going to dominate the popular meta. My argument is as follows:

1.) DB is very, very good in general PvE (and yes, that matters) and not nearly as bad in PvP as people assume. It is weaker in 1v1 than P/D but benefits immensely from the AoE component using certain tactics.

2.) D/d gains more by having it, allowing it to be versatile and condition friendly, than it would gain by replacing it with another power-exclusive skill.

Edit: here’s an old thread where people who have actually done it were discussing the playability of Condi D/D.https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/D-D-Condition-Damage-Thief/first#post1614841

Kadin.2356:

I really don’t get what the issue is either. Who out there plays condi D/D? I haven’t heard anyone stand up and say that yet and I’ve certainly never seen it in game.

It’s not uncommon for P/D thieves to swap in another dagger to clear camps in WvW – spam DB 4-5 times in caltrops, then swap back to P/D to finish. It’s noticeably faster than spamming Cluster Bomb. You’d never use it to fight players intentionally unless you’re trolling, however.

Beyond that I’m sure it’s reasonably popular in the ultra casual crowd – DB + Caltrops is a great leveling build when you have poor trait access and green gear, for instance, and there’s always a pretty large niche of players that are less interested in optimizing their play and more into messing around with off builds; pulling the bleeding from Death Blossom would certainly make these groups of players unhappy, as in that world the fact that it makes every other skill on your bar suck can be considered a perk.

Basically it does have a niche, albeit a predominantly casual one, that is probably worth respecting.

Ensign.2189:

Kadin.2356:

I really don’t get what the issue is either. Who out there plays condi D/D? I haven’t heard anyone stand up and say that yet and I’ve certainly never seen it in game.

It’s not uncommon for P/D thieves to swap in another dagger to clear camps in WvW – spam DB 4-5 times in caltrops, then swap back to P/D to finish. It’s noticeably faster than spamming Cluster Bomb. You’d never use it to fight players intentionally unless you’re trolling, however.

Beyond that I’m sure it’s reasonably popular in the ultra casual crowd – DB + Caltrops is a great leveling build when you have poor trait access and green gear, for instance, and there’s always a pretty large niche of players that are less interested in optimizing their play and more into messing around with off builds; pulling the bleeding from Death Blossom would certainly make these groups of players unhappy, as in that world the fact that it makes every other skill on your bar suck can be considered a perk.

Basically it does have a niche, albeit a predominantly casual one, that is probably worth respecting.

Pretty much this. It is unquestionably inferior to P/D in 1v1, but still has its uses in PvP while being instrumental for leveling and experimentation for general PvE.

Einlanzer.1627:

1.) DB is very, very good in general PvE (and yes, that matters) and not nearly as bad in PvP as people assume. It is weaker in 1v1 than P/D but benefits immensely from the AoE component using certain tactics.

DB is middling in general PvE. The damage is ok, if the bleeds last their full duration, but most mobs will die from auto attacks long before the long bleeding ticks from DB have a chance to do work. It performs better against veterans, which take a bit longer to kill, but the damage simply cannot compare to CnD/Backstab rotations from a Berserker set-up.

DB does perform reasonably well if you are fighting multiple, high armor veterans at once without buffs. However, even in that situation, you’re still better off running Berserker gear, as the damage you gain on the bleeds from even Sinister gear barely outweighs the damage you lose on basic attack chains from lower power and ferocity, while making absolutely everything else on your bar terrible.

Its main purpose in PvE is leveling up, where you have bad gear and no traits; once you have good gear and access to strong traits it becomes a niche skill that has specific use cases (even in Berserker gear), but not one that is strong enough to build around.

In PvP the skill is worse than people assume. You should essentially never push the DB button in PvP.

Einlanzer.1627:

2.) D/d gains more by having it, allowing it to be versatile and condition friendly, than it would gain by replacing it with another power-exclusive skill.

This I agree with.

The issue here is that it would be just another damage skill, and D/D already has a bunch of very good damage skills in Heartseeker and CnD / Backstab rotations. A power Death Blossom would have to have a niche in which it is better than those skills, which is already does (multiple high health targets); dropping the bleeding for a higher coefficient wouldn’t make the skill, or the set, any better without marginalizing Heartseeker or CnD/Backstab.

The changes Death Blossom needs are ones that add more utility or differentiate it further – evasion, reflecting projectiles, a higher target cap. Those would actually give it a role. As long as it’s just a damage skill with minimal to no utility it’s not going to add much to the set, bleeds or no.

Simple change: Last hit on DB blinds for 5s.

DD-Thiefs be like “We need moar POWER!!!” :P

DD works perfectly fine and is a well-balanced set of skills. They should fix other weapons on other classes before touching Death-Blossom which can be a very usefull skill if used in the right way.

Tranquillity.8697:

DD-Thiefs be like “We need moar POWER!!!” :P

DD works perfectly fine and is a well-balanced set of skills. They should fix other weapons on other classes before touching Death-Blossom which can be a very usefull skill if used in the right way.

Yes because they can only do one thing at a time, rolls eyes.
We just want it looked at next time they do a pass at the weapon skills, as it is an outlier for the set and not really serving its intended purpose imho.

Kadin.2356:

We just want it looked at next time they do a pass at the weapon skills, as it is an outlier for the set and not really serving its intended purpose imho.

More specifically, if you look at every other thief melee set (that is, D/P, S/P, S/D) they have a big chunk of their power in their dual attack. D/D, on the other hand, has a particularly weak dual attack. While D/D still has a high damage cheese pattern from C&D + Backstab, the lack of a functional dual attack does hurt the set, and is a big part of why it sees no competitive play.

Ensign.2189:

Kadin.2356:

We just want it looked at next time they do a pass at the weapon skills, as it is an outlier for the set and not really serving its intended purpose imho.

More specifically, if you look at every other thief melee set (that is, D/P, S/P, S/D) they have a big chunk of their power in their dual attack. D/D, on the other hand, has a particularly weak dual attack. While D/D still has a high damage cheese pattern from C&D + Backstab, the lack of a functional dual attack does hurt the set, and is a big part of why it sees no competitive play.

Well, the change to dancing dagger has been nice. Maybe they’re taking a look at the skills in the set? Keep in mind that they just fixed warrior’s rush (supposedly, GS#5) after 2 years and they didn’t change functionality too much in terms of damage, so maybe it’s just taking longer to figure out what direction to go in for DB. More evade frames→ still clunky when compared to other dual skills. It doesn’t need more damage since there’s already the most burst on that set, it just needs better utility which the set lacks.

Maugetarr.6823:

Ensign.2189:

Kadin.2356:

We just want it looked at next time they do a pass at the weapon skills, as it is an outlier for the set and not really serving its intended purpose imho.

More specifically, if you look at every other thief melee set (that is, D/P, S/P, S/D) they have a big chunk of their power in their dual attack. D/D, on the other hand, has a particularly weak dual attack. While D/D still has a high damage cheese pattern from C&D + Backstab, the lack of a functional dual attack does hurt the set, and is a big part of why it sees no competitive play.

Well, the change to dancing dagger has been nice. Maybe they’re taking a look at the skills in the set? Keep in mind that they just fixed warrior’s rush (supposedly, GS#5) after 2 years and they didn’t change functionality too much in terms of damage, so maybe it’s just taking longer to figure out what direction to go in for DB. More evade frames-> still clunky when compared to other dual skills. It doesn’t need more damage since there’s already the most burst on that set, it just needs better utility which the set lacks.

Yea even if they add evade frames it wouldn’t fix the main problem which is that it locks you into a (relatively) long animation that makes you predictable. In any pvp setting a predictable thief is a dead thief. I’d much rather they drop the evade frames and turn it into a thief version of warrior sword #3? Whirlwind? The one that spins you around like crazy? That would fill the AE damage gap that I think DB is intended to fill while also adding enough movement so that you aren’t a sitting duck at the end of the animation.

Kadin.2356:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ensign.2189:

Kadin.2356:

We just want it looked at next time they do a pass at the weapon skills, as it is an outlier for the set and not really serving its intended purpose imho.

More specifically, if you look at every other thief melee set (that is, D/P, S/P, S/D) they have a big chunk of their power in their dual attack. D/D, on the other hand, has a particularly weak dual attack. While D/D still has a high damage cheese pattern from C&D + Backstab, the lack of a functional dual attack does hurt the set, and is a big part of why it sees no competitive play.

Well, the change to dancing dagger has been nice. Maybe they’re taking a look at the skills in the set? Keep in mind that they just fixed warrior’s rush (supposedly, GS#5) after 2 years and they didn’t change functionality too much in terms of damage, so maybe it’s just taking longer to figure out what direction to go in for DB. More evade frames-> still clunky when compared to other dual skills. It doesn’t need more damage since there’s already the most burst on that set, it just needs better utility which the set lacks.

Yea even if they add evade frames it wouldn’t fix the main problem which is that it locks you into a (relatively) long animation that makes you predictable. In any pvp setting a predictable thief is a dead thief. I’d much rather they drop the evade frames and turn it into a thief version of warrior sword #3? Whirlwind? The one that spins you around like crazy? That would fill the AE damage gap that I think DB is intended to fill while also adding enough movement so that you aren’t a sitting duck at the end of the animation.

I think we’re on the same page here. Here’s to hoping that they (still)browse our forums without posting(anymore).

:)

I have two main beefs with Death Blossom.

First, when I use it against an enemy zerg, I may tag 20 players, and we may wipe their entire zerg, but how many kills do I get credit for? 3 or 4 if I am lucky. I assume it is because each individual hit does so little damage that it doesn’t count for kill credit. I’m not asking for more damage. I just want to get credit for my tags like the other classes.

Secondly, the stability aspect of it is great and the ability to bleed enemies is great, BUT it comes at the cost of not being able to evade damage, so against experienced players it is typically either a death sentence or a wasted skill. If you evade in mid DB, you just lost your DB cycle until it comes around again.

P.S. Something I hate even more is people that feel compelled to copy and paste entire postings, not just the relevant parts, including every reply to that post out to infinity. Lazy kittens – making short threads into ridiculously long ones. To me it’s just a form of post bumping.

I find it funny how elitists meta players are dictating what a hybrid build is and does. You point to pistol/dagger as a better option because of the extra condis but that’s not what hybrids do. You often focus on 1, maybe 2 condition sources, eek out enhanced performance from them but ultimately focus on power. You can do that with a lot of options but I feel daggers do it best because of the speed and versatility/mobility. You don’t need to condi bomb to hybrid. But you do need good fast direct damage to.

But if the devs are changing anything about the skill, removing or decreasing the pause at the end after you land would help everyone. No need to remove or change the nature of the attack. Just because you bemoan it as an unfit condi move doesn’t make it so, it’s an attrition move meant to stall.