(forum bug is lame)
Everyone is typing paragraphs about this….. Guys. It’s not that complicated really. Thief evade buffs are also a curse. It’s all timing guys. A nanosecond after half dodge go ahead and cast your skill unless it is instant cast. Then you have to cast a little after the second “Swivel” of the thief dash. (asuming most thieves use Unhindered Combatant). The other dodges are even easier to time. Right before he hits the ground for instant casts. TIMING.
I would like to hear from the OP about this, but it seems the original reference was to staff acro thief build, which uses bound. Not sure why we are even discussing the merits of dash over bound for a d/p thief.
^ Mission creep?
While Lotus and Bound can be immob and CC’d, which makes them balance in their own sense (IMO, Lotus and Bound is even underpowered compared to Dash). So there will be a nerfed, will it be Dash or the other two, or would it be Acro?.
In my experience, immobilize doesn’t work on a thief no matter what dodge they spam. Even though they can’t press the actual dodge skill when they get immobilized, Dagger #3 spam, Staff #5 spam, Withdraw, and Bandit’s Defense all nullify incoming damage long enough for most immobilize to go away.
Of course, dash is just nuts to go against with immobilize, because it will never work.
While Lotus and Bound can be immob and CC’d, which makes them balance in their own sense (IMO, Lotus and Bound is even underpowered compared to Dash). So there will be a nerfed, will it be Dash or the other two, or would it be Acro?.
In my experience, immobilize doesn’t work on a thief no matter what dodge they spam. Even though they can’t press the actual dodge skill when they get immobilized, Dagger #3 spam, Staff #5 spam, Withdraw, and Bandit’s Defense all nullify incoming damage long enough for most immobilize to go away.
Of course, dash is just nuts to go against with immobilize, because it will never work.
Dagger three and staff 5 do not break immobolize. I use Immob against thieves that spam three dagger or 5 staff all the time . It works fine.
Staff builds with UC can be a pain because they have the dodge source and the staff break but a d/d thief is pretty easy to beat with Immob and especailly if they do not trait UC. A bound staff build can force the thief to use all their ini breaking immobs.
Needless to say if don’t stop traited this can help a thief and in many ways against many classes that in fact a very good choice as it automatic and costs neither INI or endurance. the ICD is 10 seconds and most classes do not have an immob they can apply every 10 seconds.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
They didn’t claim it broke immob, baba; they claimed it nullified the incoming damage thereafter to make the immob not an instantaneous death, which, depending on context, can be seen as true in some cases (and others not).
As for the latter, this is why I think Bound is a good option; an Acro Bound thief has the same damage modifier access as a UC + DA thief (assuming Improv), but more access to stealth. UC is much more approachable for more offense-oriented builds from the trait perspective, but bound paired with similar negation works quite nicely, too.
They didn’t claim it broke immob, baba; they claimed it nullified the incoming damage thereafter to make the immob not an instantaneous death, which, depending on context, can be seen as true in some cases (and others not).
As for the latter, this is why I think Bound is a good option; an Acro Bound thief has the same damage modifier access as a UC + DA thief (assuming Improv), but more access to stealth. UC is much more approachable for more offense-oriented builds from the trait perspective, but bound paired with similar negation works quite nicely, too.
Trust me I use a build that focuses on Immobs as a thief. It gets ~6 seconds immob off each needle trap and 2 seconds off the pistol 2. It also used to have panic strike but I found that overkill and the build better off with the deadly trapper trait.
When I immob one of those spammers, s/he is not avoiding followup damage while they are immobbed. They do not nullify incoming damage.
Again if they traited staff it can be harder to immob the same but even staff with bound can be attacked via immobs with efficiency and given the high weakness uptime the combination of forcing staff 3 usage to break the immob and lower endurance regen via weakness you can effectively neutralize a lot of that dodge spam.
Of course some combination of acro using don’t stop or using that UC trait makes immobs much less reliable but speaking from the perspective of a thief , we have excellent access to immobs which can really hurt a good number of these dodge spam builds.
I also find those dodge spam builds overly reliant on EA to clean conditions. Few things are funnier than watching these guys spam dodges to cleanse a condition load as you step back and watch their health tick away. This another advantage of longer condition durations.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Immob against Thief is not used to deal damage while they are immobilized. Immob is used to prevent them from running an resetting the fight. Bounders do not ever spec for Don’t Stop and even if they try to prevent damage by constantly evading, all they’re doing is wasting resources, both init and endurance. Then after that, they cannot use any skills or dodge makes them an easy kill. I’ve seen many Bounders mindlessly spams evade skill. Even Staff 5 is easy to counter — just pop Bandit’s Defense, get close to the Thief spamming Staff 5 while Immob, BD will block the Staff AoE damage then click on KD while they are stuck in after cast. This always put them in a panic and makes a lot of mistakes.
Immob against Thief is not used to deal damage while they are immobilized. Immob is used to prevent them from running an resetting the fight. Bounders do not ever spec for Don’t Stop and even if they try to prevent damage by constantly evading, all they’re doing is wasting resources, both init and endurance. Then after that, they cannot use any skills or dodge makes them an easy kill. I’ve seen many Bounders mindlessly spams evade skill. Even Staff 5 is easy to counter — just pop Bandit’s Defense, get close to the Thief spamming Staff 5 while Immob, BD will block the Staff AoE damage then click on KD while they are stuck in after cast. This always put them in a panic and makes a lot of mistakes.
This depends on your build and your access to immob. If you are relying on the immob from a low condition duration build via s/x or panic strike, you will likely not inflict a lot of damage off those low duration immobs. If you have readier access and have longer durations then you can inflict a lot of damage off those immobs.
This works well in a condition p/d build high duration because not only is that immob spammable at 2 secs per shot but you apply vuln which another cover and ticks existing conditions higher.
In power builds it likely not as reliable for applying damage simply because most power builds have low durations on any conditions they apply. A 1 sec immob does not get you a lot.
This works well in a condition p/d build high duration because not only is that immob spammable at 2 secs per shot but you apply vuln which another cover and ticks existing conditions higher.
Yes, I’m basically referring to P/D or other condition damage builds which is rampant in WvW and really easy to use. A simple Steal that puts poison and weakness (+ confusion when spec’d) on a Bounder reduces their effectiveness greatly. Weakness is bad for Bounder Thief even if they have 3 dodges. So if you apply the right conditions, the Thief will simply melt. That’s the reality.
I think this thread has gone just about as far as it can. Heh.
I think the only build capable of providing enough immobilize to lock down a bound Acro thief is MH pistol on another thief since Body Shot lacks a cooldown. Otherwise, access is very limited with the second best being a druid.
You don’t really have to build a lock down since a couple of immob is sufficient enough to control a Bounder. There’s no point trying to immob a Dasher.
Yes, but very few builds can provide even a “couple” of immobs.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
you don’t need to lock a thief down to kill them. you just need to burst them at the right time.
Immob forces a Bounders to waste resources (init and endurance) and cooldowns. There’s really nothing more to it.
As does gaining stealth for a dash thief. It all comes full-circle and boils down to build and use-case scope for preferences. Both are good choices. Dash lets the thief do its +1 job better while Bound provides some more meaningful stealth utility and potentially fight viability.
It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.
Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.
It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.
Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.
I rarely go in stealth but I’m still built to survive a fight, seems to be what our tier needs with these red carpets I’m seeing more of now, and I use bound over dash but it fits my build. If you’re built for survival, dash is great to run away with or for duels but bound is just as good to survive while holding on to the position you want. To me, one dodge is for fighting and the other is for scouting.
Between weapon switching, Steal, and other utilities you should never be without a Stealth in your pocket. Regardless, I only really use Stealth to cover my direction or to pie corners and cross roads on top of occasionally using it in fight to change my orientation on my target, bound feels far more natural in that last regard. It’s all perspective though, not saying you’re wrong as you might be right if you’re talking in general.
I would like to hear from the OP about this, but it seems the original reference was to staff acro thief build, which uses bound. Not sure why we are even discussing the merits of dash over bound for a d/p thief.
Yeah I was talking about bound acro staff d/p, god even typing that gave me cancer.
Yeah I was talking about bound acro staff d/p, god even typing that gave me cancer.
Bound, Acro, Staff is really fun to play. What makes it worse than any other evasive build? If you’re talking trash about the build because you don’t like fighting it that’s fine but if you’re actually commenting on the build as a thief then I don’t understand where you’re getting at.
(edited by kash.9213)
It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.
Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.
I rarely go in stealth but I’m still built to survive a fight, seems to be what our tier needs with these red carpets I’m seeing more of now, and I use bound over dash but it fits my build. If you’re built for survival, dash is great to run away with or for duels but bound is just as good to survive while holding on to the position you want. To me, one dodge is for fighting and the other is for scouting.
Between weapon switching, Steal, and other utilities you should never be without a Stealth in your pocket. Regardless, I only really use Stealth to cover my direction or to pie corners and cross roads on top of occasionally using it in fight to change my orientation on my target, bound feels far more natural in that last regard. It’s all perspective though, not saying you’re wrong as you might be right if you’re talking in general.
This is really not an argument who is right and who is wrong. It’s a discussion of experience, point of view, and play style. We’re simply pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of each dodge GM.
For the same cost of 50 endurance, a Thief gets more out of Dash than of Bound or Lotus. IMO, Bound and Lotus should grant a 15% (or even 20%) boost instead of 10% just to put it in line with the value of Dash. The risk of not taking Dash should be rewarding, however at this point, it’s just a waste of resources.
The 10% damage boost is just meh, so the main purpose of Bound is to leap in smoke fields. If the damage boost is 15% or 20%, then we’ll see a more meaningful use of Bound since it will be a trade-off if the Thief will waste that boost just to go in stealth. Also, we’ll see more Bound used for offense than for escape.
Yeah I was talking about bound acro staff d/p, god even typing that gave me cancer.
Bound, Acro, Staff is really fun to play. What makes it worse than any other evasive build? If you’re talking trash about the build because you don’t like fighting it that’s fine but if you’re actually commenting on the build as a thief then I don’t understand where you’re getting at.
Yes its annoying as all hell to fight and I want it nerfed, I don’t know where you got confused tbh lol
It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.
Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.
I rarely go in stealth but I’m still built to survive a fight, seems to be what our tier needs with these red carpets I’m seeing more of now, and I use bound over dash but it fits my build. If you’re built for survival, dash is great to run away with or for duels but bound is just as good to survive while holding on to the position you want. To me, one dodge is for fighting and the other is for scouting.
Between weapon switching, Steal, and other utilities you should never be without a Stealth in your pocket. Regardless, I only really use Stealth to cover my direction or to pie corners and cross roads on top of occasionally using it in fight to change my orientation on my target, bound feels far more natural in that last regard. It’s all perspective though, not saying you’re wrong as you might be right if you’re talking in general.
This is really not an argument who is right and who is wrong. It’s a discussion of experience, point of view, and play style. We’re simply pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of each dodge GM.
For the same cost of 50 endurance, a Thief gets more out of Dash than of Bound or Lotus. IMO, Bound and Lotus should grant a 15% (or even 20%) boost instead of 10% just to put it in line with the value of Dash. The risk of not taking Dash should be rewarding, however at this point, it’s just a waste of resources.
The 10% damage boost is just meh, so the main purpose of Bound is to leap in smoke fields. If the damage boost is 15% or 20%, then we’ll see a more meaningful use of Bound since it will be a trade-off if the Thief will waste that boost just to go in stealth. Also, we’ll see more Bound used for offense than for escape.
Thats just encouraging more people to take the let me be a kitten and hide in stealth route
Thats just encouraging more people to take the let me be a kitten and hide in stealth route
Should we just stand there weaponless and let you hit us. My last post might have came off as confused because you offer nothing but crying throughout a thread, I really thought you were giving a mildly sarcastic commentary as a thief but you really are just crying about another class because you can’t just stand still and roll over a rotation. Get out of here with that, save it for the WvW forums, this kind of thread is comedy gold there.
For the same cost of 50 endurance, a Thief gets more out of Dash than of Bound or Lotus. IMO, Bound and Lotus should grant a 15% (or even 20%) boost instead of 10% just to put it in line with the value of Dash. The risk of not taking Dash should be rewarding, however at this point, it’s just a waste of resources.
The 10% damage boost is just meh, so the main purpose of Bound is to leap in smoke fields. If the damage boost is 15% or 20%, then we’ll see a more meaningful use of Bound since it will be a trade-off if the Thief will waste that boost just to go in stealth. Also, we’ll see more Bound used for offense than for escape.
Dash had better offer more of it’s signature feature, it’s mostly all defensive and travels too far, apart from non combat use. Bound is mostly fine as is unless you’re a glass jaw and can’t survive an immobilize, given a build that contributes to it’s evade as consequence and it starts getting a little ridiculous. I’m trying to imagine a Staff/Acro build with a 20% damage boost on top of a leap finisher and an evade and dodge to push part of the build, I’ll take that. I’m speaking from my own rollout though, the one set I would take Dash with is the standard D/P,SB build, that all works so well together considering most of that set starts at range.
(edited by kash.9213)
It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.
Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.
I rarely go in stealth but I’m still built to survive a fight, seems to be what our tier needs with these red carpets I’m seeing more of now, and I use bound over dash but it fits my build. If you’re built for survival, dash is great to run away with or for duels but bound is just as good to survive while holding on to the position you want. To me, one dodge is for fighting and the other is for scouting.
Between weapon switching, Steal, and other utilities you should never be without a Stealth in your pocket. Regardless, I only really use Stealth to cover my direction or to pie corners and cross roads on top of occasionally using it in fight to change my orientation on my target, bound feels far more natural in that last regard. It’s all perspective though, not saying you’re wrong as you might be right if you’re talking in general.
This is really not an argument who is right and who is wrong. It’s a discussion of experience, point of view, and play style. We’re simply pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of each dodge GM.
For the same cost of 50 endurance, a Thief gets more out of Dash than of Bound or Lotus. IMO, Bound and Lotus should grant a 15% (or even 20%) boost instead of 10% just to put it in line with the value of Dash. The risk of not taking Dash should be rewarding, however at this point, it’s just a waste of resources.
The 10% damage boost is just meh, so the main purpose of Bound is to leap in smoke fields. If the damage boost is 15% or 20%, then we’ll see a more meaningful use of Bound since it will be a trade-off if the Thief will waste that boost just to go in stealth. Also, we’ll see more Bound used for offense than for escape.
Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.
Dash is by no means OP
(edited by Azukas.1426)
Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.
It’s not too much for a dodge given that it is the Thief’s only way to survive and dodging prevents the Thief from dealing damage. Compare that to other profession where they can damage-immune themselves and still able to use skills to deal damage.
So no, Bound and Lotus should grant more damage given that fact.
Dash is by no means OP
Nobody said that it is. IMO, the Thief gets what it pays for while Bound and Lotus are underpowered.
Dash had better offer more of it’s signature feature, it’s mostly all defensive and travels too far, apart from non combat use. Bound is mostly fine as is unless you’re a glass jaw and can’t survive an immobilize, given a build that contributes to it’s evade as consequence and it starts getting a little ridiculous. I’m trying to imagine a Staff/Acro build with a 20% damage boost on top of a leap finisher and an evade and dodge to push part of the build, I’ll take that. I’m speaking from my own rollout though, the one set I would take Dash with is the standard D/P,SB build, that all works so well together considering most of that set starts at range.
I really doubt that at this point in time that they will nerf the tankiness of other professions, so to balance the damage output of Thief against their defenses, Bound and Lotus should receive a buff. 20% should be the right amount, but no less than 15%.
Thats just encouraging more people to take the let me be a kitten and hide in stealth route
Should we just stand there weaponless and let you hit us. My last post might have came off as confused because you offer nothing but crying throughout a thread, I really thought you were giving a mildly sarcastic commentary as a thief but you really are just crying about another class because you can’t just stand still and roll over a rotation. Get out of here with that, save it for the WvW forums, this kind of thread is comedy gold there.
Ok the thing is I don’t mind losing to good thieves, its just annoying when I lose to some kitten running a broken build. There’s a reason every second thief is running it, its easy.
tldr; nerf acro.
Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.
It’s not too much for a dodge given that it is the Thief’s only way to survive and dodging prevents the Thief from dealing damage. Compare that to other profession where they can damage-immune themselves and still able to use skills to deal damage.
So no, Bound and Lotus should grant more damage given that fact.
Dash is by no means OP
Nobody said that it is. IMO, the Thief gets what it pays for while Bound and Lotus are underpowered.
Did you just compare Bound to long CD utility skills b/c some of those skills allow the user to still damage ppl?
LOLOLOLOLOL
How many dodges do you think you can pull off during the 60 second CD of Endure Pain? Much more than 4 seconds of invuln I can guarantee that. How many evades per te 80 sec CD on Signet of Stone? Much more than 6 seconds.
You are really reaching with this one here lol
Thats just encouraging more people to take the let me be a kitten and hide in stealth route
Should we just stand there weaponless and let you hit us. My last post might have came off as confused because you offer nothing but crying throughout a thread, I really thought you were giving a mildly sarcastic commentary as a thief but you really are just crying about another class because you can’t just stand still and roll over a rotation. Get out of here with that, save it for the WvW forums, this kind of thread is comedy gold there.
Ok the thing is I don’t mind losing to good thieves, its just annoying when I lose to some kitten running a broken build. There’s a reason every second thief is running it, its easy.
tldr; nerf acro.
So. . . stop whining for a nerf and learn to beat it (as I’m sure anyone here can tell you how)?
Ok the thing is I don’t mind losing to good thieves
That’s fortunate
There’s a reason every second thief is running it, its easy.
tldr; nerf acro.
because good thieves figured out how to give acro a place again not long after HoT when many of the complaints were about Daredevil making Acro obsolete. You can even see that progression on metabattle comments and you could on here if there was a better search. If you would bother to read back on here a little you find plenty of discussion in detail on how to easily counter most of what you’re complaining about by people who know this class in and out.
Even I’m passable and I’m so casual I don’t even bother to remember what most skills and utilities are called but I know all of the icons really well.
Thats just encouraging more people to take the let me be a kitten and hide in stealth route
Should we just stand there weaponless and let you hit us. My last post might have came off as confused because you offer nothing but crying throughout a thread, I really thought you were giving a mildly sarcastic commentary as a thief but you really are just crying about another class because you can’t just stand still and roll over a rotation. Get out of here with that, save it for the WvW forums, this kind of thread is comedy gold there.
Ok the thing is I don’t mind losing to good thieves, its just annoying when I lose to some kitten running a broken build. There’s a reason every second thief is running it, its easy.
tldr; nerf acro.
So. . . stop whining for a nerf and learn to beat it (as I’m sure anyone here can tell you how)?
sigh I swear you’re like delusional or something, you’re basically saying everyone that can’t beat acro d/p bound staff is stupid and needs to l2p, the build is broken get it through your thick skull lmao
Ok the thing is I don’t mind losing to good thieves
That’s fortunate
There’s a reason every second thief is running it, its easy.
tldr; nerf acro.
because good thieves figured out how to give acro a place again not long after HoT when many of the complaints were about Daredevil making Acro obsolete. You can even see that progression on metabattle comments and you could on here if there was a better search. If you would bother to read back on here a little you find plenty of discussion in detail on how to easily counter most of what you’re complaining about by people who know this class in and out.
Even I’m passable and I’m so casual I don’t even bother to remember what most skills and utilities are called but I know all of the icons really well.
ok so by your reasoning everyone being a perma vigour dodge spamming thief is a good thing for the game.
/gg
Actually, yes. Yes it is. The Idea of an agile thief who relies on evasion rather than toughness or healing to negate damage is a great idea. It fits the Thief very well.
So /gg this.
Thieves who have speced purely into evasion do so because it is the best and if you want to get serious about it, only option for sustain. It is not a broken mechanic, because it can be easilly countered, and the only reason you and others complain about ti is because you hate missing your big burst combo that should erase a thief otherwise. You hate seeing “Evade” when you thought you could end the fight quickly, and you wanted to end the fight quickly. don’t try and pretend this has anything to do other than you wanting to roll over whatever you fight with little effort. The Gingerbread man build requires effort to pull off what they do. It may look like the thief is just spamming 3 and V, but we are not. We are utilizing every skill on our bar, managing endurance, initiative, and our (in the case of Gingerbread Man) three stun breaks. One mistake costs us the fight, and if you manage to burst us at the right time nothing we do will save us.
A thief who specs for burst condi damage has to blow all of their cooldowns in order to bust you. We then have to wait at least 25 seconds to do that burst again. plenty of time to kill us if you clear the burst.
A vault theif has to hope you don’t hit them with a burst after they vault. and if they kill you before you get the chance then you also did not have time for the dodge spam to become a factor. The bust killed you before you could react.
I’ll say this again:
On another note, what is NOT good for the game is the way that they have created Elite specs in general nerfing the core classes to the point of uselessness without the elite spec was a b*** move by Anet. Every single elite spec in this game with the debatable exception of berserker has made the core class obsolete
(edited by emkelly.2371)
Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.
It’s not too much for a dodge given that it is the Thief’s only way to survive and dodging prevents the Thief from dealing damage. Compare that to other profession where they can damage-immune themselves and still able to use skills to deal damage.
So no, Bound and Lotus should grant more damage given that fact.
Dash is by no means OP
Nobody said that it is. IMO, the Thief gets what it pays for while Bound and Lotus are underpowered.
Did you just compare Bound to long CD utility skills b/c some of those skills allow the user to still damage ppl?
LOLOLOLOLOL
How many dodges do you think you can pull off during the 60 second CD of Endure Pain? Much more than 4 seconds of invuln I can guarantee that. How many evades per te 80 sec CD on Signet of Stone? Much more than 6 seconds.
You are really reaching with this one here lol
The real question is; If the Thief doesn’t need to dodge in order to prevent damage, how much damage do you think the Thief can deliver?
There is no question that the Thief will deliver more damage than what Bound can offer if they have damage-immunity skills.
The fact that the Thief has to use dodge to prevent damage limits their potential damage output and then forced to be satisfied with a lackluster Bound damage. Not to mentioned the recent nerf to the AoE radius of Bound, which makes hitting someone with the AoE inconsistent.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
Bound/Acro:
Funny enough the Staff D/P build moves a thief away from a couple mainstays including the need for Shortbow and Trickery in most builds. Dodge spam itself has weaknesses mainly with Vault. Players that move past Vault spam with the Staff and master the skills between it and the Auto Attack are far more deadly.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
Actually, yes. Yes it is. The Idea of an agile thief who relies on evasion rather than toughness or healing to negate damage is a great idea. It fits the Thief very well.
So /gg this.
Thieves who have speced purely into evasion do so because it is the best and if you want to get serious about it, only option for sustain. It is not a broken mechanic, because it can be easilly countered, and the only reason you and others complain about ti is because you hate missing your big burst combo that should erase a thief otherwise. You hate seeing “Evade” when you thought you could end the fight quickly, and you wanted to end the fight quickly. don’t try and pretend this has anything to do other than you wanting to roll over whatever you fight with little effort. The Gingerbread man build requires effort to pull off what they do. It may look like the thief is just spamming 3 and V, but we are not. We are utilizing every skill on our bar, managing endurance, initiative, and our (in the case of Gingerbread Man) three stun breaks. One mistake costs us the fight, and if you manage to burst us at the right time nothing we do will save us.
A thief who specs for burst condi damage has to blow all of their cooldowns in order to bust you. We then have to wait at least 25 seconds to do that burst again. plenty of time to kill us if you clear the burst.
A vault theif has to hope you don’t hit them with a burst after they vault. and if they kill you before you get the chance then you also did not have time for the dodge spam to become a factor. The bust killed you before you could react.I’ll say this again:
- against DD, wait for Blossom, hit us with your burst at the end of the Blossom.
- Vault, wait for the after cast of vault, then hit us with your burst
- If we get the drop on you, you’ll be at a disadvantage, there’s nothing you can do about that, the thief outplayed you.
On another note, what is NOT good for the game is the way that they have created Elite specs in general nerfing the core classes to the point of uselessness without the elite spec was a b*** move by Anet. Every single elite spec in this game with the debatable exception of berserker has made the core class obsolete
While I don’t agree with the notion of calling the build broken in terms of its raw strength, I do think the dynamic itself is broken. Thieves should be agile, but that’s not the only thing they should be.
I’d argue that Berserker invalidated a lot of core warrior and is definitely less fun to play against. Of all the specs, I think the only one actually done properly is the reaper, because core necro is still good but the builds are strong in totally different environments, which was more along the purpose of what the elites were supposed to do, or at least, that was the original claim.
I’d argue that Berserker invalidated a lot of core warrior…
I’ll raise you with DH invalidating what Guardian is suppose to be. IMO, Revenant’s King Jalis kit is supposed to be for Guardians just as much as Shiro’s kit is supposed to be for Thief.
Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.
It’s not too much for a dodge given that it is the Thief’s only way to survive and dodging prevents the Thief from dealing damage. Compare that to other profession where they can damage-immune themselves and still able to use skills to deal damage.
So no, Bound and Lotus should grant more damage given that fact.
Dash is by no means OP
Nobody said that it is. IMO, the Thief gets what it pays for while Bound and Lotus are underpowered.
Did you just compare Bound to long CD utility skills b/c some of those skills allow the user to still damage ppl?
LOLOLOLOLOL
How many dodges do you think you can pull off during the 60 second CD of Endure Pain? Much more than 4 seconds of invuln I can guarantee that. How many evades per te 80 sec CD on Signet of Stone? Much more than 6 seconds.
You are really reaching with this one here lol
The real question is; If the Thief doesn’t need to dodge in order to prevent damage, how much damage do you think the Thief can deliver?
There is no question that the Thief will deliver more damage than what Bound can offer if they have damage-immunity skills.
The fact that the Thief has to use dodge to prevent damage limits their potential damage output and then forced to be satisfied with a lackluster Bound damage. Not to mentioned the recent nerf to the AoE radius of Bound, which makes hitting someone with the AoE inconsistent.
You got blinds, weakness, and weapon sets with evades built into the skills….all of which are spammable.
If you want go pick up the acro line so you too can get in on the passive wars that packs an invuln that you can still deal damage while under its effect.
Also Bound’s lack luster damage out performs heart seeker damage unless the target is under 25% health. Bound does all this while evading being AoE and a leap finisher.
What game,are you really playing because it ain’t GW2
I’d argue that Berserker invalidated a lot of core warrior…
I’ll raise you with DH invalidating what Guardian is suppose to be. IMO, Revenant’s King Jalis kit is supposed to be for Guardians just as much as Shiro’s kit is supposed to be for Thief.
This isn’t a competition to determine which Elite spec invalidates the most core game content but I simply disagreed with the claim that Berserker is well-designed in what the intentions of HoT were supposed to be because of its invalidation of even its core class.
You got blinds, weakness, and weapon sets with evades built into the skills….all of which are spammable.
It seems that you don’t even play Thief because nothing in the Thief’s kit is “spammable”. That’s not even close to 4s of invulnerability (8s if chained). Give a Thief an 8s invulnerability with 2 minutes CD, the Thief will wreck anyone within that time frame making the 2 min CD irrelevant.
If you want go pick up the acro line so you too can get in on the passive wars that packs an invuln that you can still deal damage while under its effect.
2sec evasion…you’re just being ridiculous now. If that is 5sec – 6sec, then you may have a valid point. With the Thief’s pre-cast and after-cast delay bullkitten, that 2sec nets for 2 attacks.
Also Bound’s lack luster damage out performs heart seeker damage unless the target is under 25% health. Bound does all this while evading being AoE and a leap finisher.
How is Bound vs HS even relevant?
What game,are you really playing because it ain’t GW2
You don’t even know the difference between active evasion vs passive invulnerability then you’re asking me what game I’m playing? Typical coming from someone who don’t even know what they’re talking about.
You got blinds, weakness, and weapon sets with evades built into the skills….all of which are spammable.
It seems that you don’t even play Thief because nothing in the Thief’s kit is “spammable”. That’s not even close to 4s of invulnerability (8s if chained). Give a Thief an 8s invulnerability with 2 minutes CD, the Thief will wreck anyone within that time frame making the 2 min CD irrelevant.
If you want go pick up the acro line so you too can get in on the passive wars that packs an invuln that you can still deal damage while under its effect.
2sec evasion…you’re just being ridiculous now. If that is 5sec – 6sec, then you may have a valid point. With the Thief’s pre-cast and after-cast delay bullkitten, that 2sec nets for 2 attacks.
Also Bound’s lack luster damage out performs heart seeker damage unless the target is under 25% health. Bound does all this while evading being AoE and a leap finisher.
How is Bound vs HS even relevant?
What game,are you really playing because it ain’t GW2
You don’t even know the difference between active evasion vs passive invulnerability then you’re asking me what game I’m playing? Typical coming from someone who don’t even know what they’re talking about.
Yes I dont play thief, but why do I know more about thief than you a supposed thief main?
1. All thief weapon skills are spammable. That is a fact. You deny this but have repeatedly called for D/P nerfs due to spamming blinds/shadow shot. So which is it? Oh btw you also stated you can just sit in pistol 5 skill and AA ppl to death too. You go on and on about 8 seconds of invuln (1/2 of which requires the Warrior to get hit hard) then state a thief would be invincible with that much invuln….lol no.
2. You stated previously you are invincible just standing in a BP field AA’n ppl to death, but having 2 seconds of invulnerability in form of an evade doesn’t trump standing in a nerfed BP field? lol wut?
3. Bound vs HS is very relevant since you said Bound’s damage was lack luster. Problem is Bounds damage isn’t lack luster and is actually performing too good since it out performs heartseeker until your target gets below the 25% health threshold. Y’know what else bound outperforms in terms of damage? Shadow Shot…D/P’s bread and butter damage skill is out performed by a dodge.
I honestly think it’s time you stop posting with false facts and lobbying for actions that would destroy these people’s class. You are doing a disservice to the players who are trying to make this class work when in reality the class is hurting compared to the rest of the game.
Do us all a favor and stop
Thank you
+1 for truth. Also…who the hell just stands in a BP Field? I’ve never seen it.
Yes I dont play thief, but why do I know more about thief than you a supposed thief main?
You claim and you believe that you know more, but your posts show that you really don’t know.
1. All thief weapon skills are spammable. That is a fact. You deny this but have repeatedly called for D/P nerfs due to spamming blinds/shadow shot. So which is it? Oh btw you also stated you can just sit in pistol 5 skill and AA ppl to death too. You go on and on about 8 seconds of invuln (1/2 of which requires the Warrior to get hit hard) then state a thief would be invincible with that much invuln….lol no.
See this is the kind of remarks that shows your ignorance about the Thief profession. Misrepresentation of what I’ve posted is the key give away. Every Thief knows that no skill is spammable due to the limitations of the Initiative system. The claim I’ve made is spamming blind, not any Thief Skill. This can be accomplished by using pistol and simply auto-attacking inside BP or using Unload.
Any person would be stupid to believe that standing in BP makes the Thief invincible. That’s not even close as the same as Defy Pain.
You see the reason why you’re confused and all these things are jumbled up in your mind is because you truly have no understanding of the Thief profession.
2. You stated previously you are invincible just standing in a BP field AA’n ppl to death, but having 2 seconds of invulnerability in form of an evade doesn’t trump standing in a nerfed BP field? lol wut?
Don’t be a dishonest jerk. I never claim to be invincible standing in BP. It’s a survival tactic, not a passive invulnerability. Every Thief knows that blind can only prevent certain damage unlike invulnerability which can prevent all damage.
The 2sec evasion, if you really know the profession, only triggers at 50% health with a 40sec CD. This is not the kind of defenses that Thief need because this can trigger in times that it’s not needed and would be in CD when it is needed. The fact that you fail to understand this is a strong evidence of your ignorance about the Thief profession.
3. Bound vs HS is very relevant since you said Bound’s damage was lack luster. Problem is Bounds damage isn’t lack luster and is actually performing too good since it out performs heartseeker until your target gets below the 25% health threshold. Y’know what else bound outperforms in terms of damage? Shadow Shot…D/P’s bread and butter damage skill is out performed by a dodge.
sigh…if you don’t even know why this is irrelevant, then you’re just trolling now. Bound and HS don’t even have the same cost. Bound deals AoE and HS is single target. HS scales in damage for the same Init cost and Bound do not scale at all. That’s like painting a pineapple red just so you can compare it to an apple.
I honestly think it’s time you stop posting with false facts and lobbying for actions that would destroy these people’s class. You are doing a disservice to the players who are trying to make this class work when in reality the class is hurting compared to the rest of the game.
Someone claiming to know a profession he do not even play or have a basic understanding of the Thief’s fundamental play style is the one who’s doing the profession a disservice, if any service if ever been rendered at all.
Do us all a favor and stop
Nah, I play the Thief and this is where we discuss the profession we play. You on the other hand sounds like an MMA fan who think they can do better inside the octagon.
+1 for truth. Also…who the hell just stands in a BP Field? I’ve never seen it.
Don’t be a fool believing in the lies. The truth you think you are agreeing to is not even close to the truth because that’s only partial of what I’ve posted. The fact is, what I’ve posted in putting the BP in between you and the target when they get in melee range if you are using pistol. Standing in smoke field is just for convenience since a Thief can cover a wide angle without moving, simply just by turning. However, every Thief knows that we can’t just stand still if we want to survive, so the term “standing in a smoke field” only really means that were simply using it to add blind to our projectile. It’s a tactic used by many Thieves be it BP or Smoke Screen.
Don’t be a fool believing in the lies. The truth you think you are agreeing to is not even close to the truth because that’s only partial of what I’ve posted. The fact is, what I’ve posted in putting the BP in between you and the target when they get in melee range if you are using pistol. Standing in smoke field is just for convenience since a Thief can cover a wide angle without moving, simply just by turning. However, every Thief knows that we can’t just stand still if we want to survive, so the term “standing in a smoke field” only really means that were simply using it to add blind to our projectile. It’s a tactic used by many Thieves be it BP or Smoke Screen.
No, you are wrong. It’s been 2 pages of you being stubborn and pretty much really not knowing what you’re talking about. You have derailed the thread from OP ranting about the bound acro thief to everyone trying to explain to you why bound actually works. You didn’t even realize what OP was talking about till he literally had to explain it to you. You see, the dueling meta thief build, especially thief v thief is the bound acro staff build. If you ever go to 1v1 dueling arena, you will never in hell win vs the good thiefs there without bound. Thats the problem and I think OP plays thief too so it makes sense. You cant interrupt their BP bound, they have more passive sustain which makes the fight last forever and they will definitely hit you with bound on purpose and by mistake which heavily favors the fight for them which brings me to my second point.
Other people literally spoon fed you why you would use bound in BP and ur response was literally “I still see the wastefulness of it when Bound in used to go in stealth when using HS makes more sense and D/P has always been effective even without Bound”. You can’t even understand why you would use bound over hs after HoT been out for over a year which is just incredible and you claim to have extensively tried it out. Don’t just try it out, learn to use it.
Let me at least break it down for you. If you have steal off CD, you should always have at least 1 dodge used up or you will be wasting the endurance (this was mentioned to you before but I think you claimed you “Still saw the wastefulness”). So if you were to stealth in front of another thief with dash, i will shadow step and headshot u and interrupt ur hs and proc u with PI and even drain sigil if in WvW. If you were using bound, i cant do anything and u have more stealth uptime and if u get lucky, u can even get a free backstab combo since u can stealth as much as u want since u have 2 different resources. This puts u on top of the dash thief IF you guys dueling. If you were to use channeled vigor for the heal, and u dont need the extra heal from max endurance, u can even use 2 dodges since you know u will be getting them back. If you were dueling a retri rev, u use at least 2 dodges before ccing him since u know u will be using signet of agility to cleanse the taunt.
It’s not that you should always use bound in BP, in some situations one is better than the other and what you dont seem to get is you have 2 resources to blast stealth with bound. There are many times where some1 might assjam you and u dont have enough initiative because u didnt expect it so u cant use both bp and hs so bp and bound will save u. If you are dueling where u cant ooc and u wanna reset, bp bound is so strong because u cant dash and shortbow 5 away like in wvw or pvp. All these scenarios are neglecting the fact that u get a small damage boost and ur dropping aoe damage at ur feet. There are so many times im just stealthing with bound and i see i hit the thief by mistake. Even good thieves will get hit at least once or twice with bound, especially if the duel is long or they think im running dash like everyone else.
There are many scenarios where bound > dash and other scenarios where dash > bound. It isn’t as black and white as you see it.
I find it funny that even the mes main knows your class better than you.
(edited by VciouSidewinder.4029)
~snip~
Where did I ever said that Bound doesn’t work? If you’re going to respond to me with a wall of text, don’t start by misrepresenting my position because it only highlights your foolish misunderstanding.
Yeah you said it yourself, the fight lasts forever because Bounders cannot win a fight, only stale. I’ve seen this many times. If the Bounder can’t win, they run and reset. The fact that a Bounder relies on stealth only means that they are not built to win, but to troll. As I’ve also mentioned, Bounder only look good against bad players and they have no chance of winning against good player, tanky, and heavy condition. Which I’ve also mention that the reason I think that Bound is a waste is because it is underpowered compare to Dash.
By the way, Thieves have been winning fights 1v1 without Bound and I have my own share of 2v1 fights using Lotus and Dash.
And please, stop playing with words. Extensively trying a build means learning how to use it. When HoT first came out, I was one of the Thieves who abused Bound/Acro Staff and even posted here how Vault hits harder than Backstab. So before you criticize my stance, do your research. I’ve also used D/P and many build including using Bound and my play style focuses more on positioning and tactical advantage. While Bound gives damage boost and easy stealth, it has no benefit when I’m in stealth because of the risk of prematurely revealing myself. Using Dash in stealth puts me in an advantageous position without risking premature reveal. You see, you don’t get this because unlike me, I actually experienced this first hand, and unlike you, you only speak from other’s experience. So instead of using your own experience to criticize me, you’re using other’s experience because you have nothing to show for it.
Headshotting a HS leap only looks good on paper. Keep in mind that Bound has some airtime and it means the move is highly telegraph. Your plan crumbles if I simply Dash towards your location which your Bound will completely miss me or I will evade the damage and it puts me in a favorable position right behind you. Also, you can’t headshot me before I stealth with HS if you are blinded — I bet you have no idea what I’m talking about. It’s ok, only those who knows how to HS->stealth knows what I’m talking about. Here’s a hint, Bound has 3/4 sec animation time, BP has 1/2 sec casting time. You Bound towards me, I’ll make sure you land inside my BP. You see, there’s so many things I can do while you’re Bounding around.
Like I’ve said before, HS->stealth never had any problem before Bound, so your argument is moot.
You see that’s the problem of those who argue without full knowledge of what they are talking about. Nobody tries to interrupt HS leap into smoke. Every Thief knows that if you want to prevent a Thief from leaping into stealth, you need to interrupt the BP. Once that BP is on the ground, you cannot stop a Thief from going in stealth whether they go by Bound or by HS.
Using Channeled Vigor to support your argument is foolish. Channeled Vigor is a heal skill that yells to your opponent “HERE I AM, LOCKED IN A LONG CASTING TIME. INTERRUPT ME PLEASE!”
All Thief players knows, or in your case should know, that the only skills worth interrupting are the heal skills and cleanse and Channeled Vigor is just asking to be interrupted. Why do you think Withdraw is still the best in slot? Channeled Vigor looks good in PvE, but in PvP, that’s a no no. If you’re using Channeled Vigor in front of your opponent and they didn’t interrupt you, you’re fighting against a bad player.
Again, only rookie makes the mistakes of not having enough initiatives to use BP and HS. Pre-Bound, Thief can stealth using BP and HS just fine. Besides, if you’re in a jam, Dash will put a great distance away from that tight situation unhindered without the need to go in stealth. If you’re using Bound and BP got interrupted, you’re SoL.
You cannot reset a fight without going OOC. So if you can’t go OOC, you can’t reset even if you want to. Dash is a trait that makes sure that you wouldn’t need to reset any fight, which is something Bounders relies on.
Ok, sure I get hit with Bound, it tickles. The damage from Bound is pathetically low. It’s nothing compare to the amount of damage I can dish-out if I get invulnerability instead.
There are some scenario where Bound is great, that is against bad players, but most scenario given the current meta where a tanky warrior can deal a lot of damage, Dash is the only trait worth spending 50 endurance on. Like I’ve already said, IMO, Bound and Lotus are underpowered that they will only be worth using if each grants 15%-20% damage boost.
What’s funny in all of this is you believing that a Mesmer main actually knows a lot about the Thief when it’s clear and as plain as day that he has no idea what he’s talking about.
Wow, there is just so much false information on ur statement right there, idk where to begin.
Firstly I’d like to point out, literally everyone is arguing against u, besides one single person who claimed u can’t deal damage while evading like u did which sorta proves how much u guys actually know about thief. The fact that everyone believes you’re wrong alone should prove to u that u might be wrong but at this point, its pretty obvious how stubborn u are. And i always duel with bound even though i favor dash so yea…..
Anyways, im not gonna bother trying to convince u but ill just point out all the things that’s wrong in ur statement because i think it’s hilarious that u are so far behind in ur thief knowledge. And lol at u concluding vault hits harder than backstab, congrats on finding out which number is bigger than the other clap.
“While Bound gives damage boost and easy stealth, it has no benefit when I’m in stealth because of the risk of prematurely revealing myself”
U dont bound after the first finisher on bp which will still stealth u even if u hit them because ur not at risk of being interrupted (at least in most cases). I can see u have extensive bound experience….
" Also, you can’t headshot me before I stealth with HS if you are blinded "
Lol really? bp projectile is slow, no good thief will get hit by it and if u mean bp field then read below.
“You Bound towards me, I’ll make sure you land inside my BP.”
lol, its so ez to not get blinded even if i land in ur bp. I can just dodge again or staff 3…..
“HS->stealth never had any problem before Bound”
Because before, worst case scenario is interrupt, now its PI proc + draining sigil. I can basi after and proc PI again with the initial PI proc in most cases, especially if ur trying to bp hs since most likely u will hs again and proc my PI from basi.
“Every Thief knows that if you want to prevent a Thief from leaping into stealth, you need to interrupt the BP”
This is just kittened. I cant believe im even explaining this. Firstly, if some1 bps, u should be more worried about dodging the blind and figuring out if they’re using bound or dash and how you will be approaching the fight. Also bp -> 1/2s cast time. Hs -> 3/4s cast time. Also if some one is in BP, it is so obvious they are going to heartseeker and on top of that heartseeker has a much more obvious animation. It doesn’t make sense to try and guess they are going to BP and headshot rather than just waiting for the bp and interrupting the hs considering the cast time is higher and on top of that u know he will hs since u alrdy see them sitting in a bp. I can’t believe u dont know this.
“Once that BP is on the ground, you cannot stop a Thief from going in stealth whether they go by Bound or by HS.”
I cant believe u actually believe this.
" Channeled Vigor is a heal skill that yells to your opponent “HERE I AM, LOCKED IN A LONG CASTING TIME. INTERRUPT ME PLEASE!"
Coming from the guy who wants to unload or hs from a bp field and expects not to get interrupted lol.
“Channeled Vigor looks good in PvE, but in PvP, that’s a no no.”
Lol, I dont know what ur talking about because CV is meta in pvp. The only thief to successfully use thief since HoT in esport (sinderener) used and uses CV in pvp.
“You cannot reset a fight without going OOC.”
It’s called “soft-reset” and “hard-reset”. I thought it was self explanatory since i mentioned ooc but i guess some people dont know any better.
“There are some scenario where Bound is great, that is against bad players”
Considering ur knowledge on thief and how a mes know more than u, i think it would work great on u, at the least.
“Dash is the only trait worth spending 50 endurance on”
Yes, u’ve been saying that for 2 pages alrdy and everyone been disagreeing with you but sure, keep believing that. I mean u did, after all, figure out vault does more damage than backstab. I think u deserve some credit for getting that right.
(edited by VciouSidewinder.4029)
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