Guild Wars 2

so i tried to calculate my upcoming crit dmg.
took all my minors from weapons, runes, trinkets, armor etc: 775 ferocity (all ascended)

this is equal to 51% crit dmg….sad thing is currently i have 107%.

old: crit base 150%+107%= 257% (right?)
new: crit base 150% + 51% = 201%

well….erm….i thought it was “only” a 10% nerf?
did i do a mistake while calculating?

My calculation isn´t that bad but still its clearly over 10%…

That’s about a 21.8% nerf, but only at a 100% crit rate. Don’t forget that your DPS includes non-crits.

My calculation:

All Ascended:

Armor: 235
Weapon: 134
Accessories: 376
Trait 30 points in CS: 150
Runes (I use Ruby Orb): 84
Food: 70

Total: 1049/15= 70%

Current ingame crit damage per character panel = 115%

Difference= 115 – 70 = 45% or A kittening 40% NERF!!!!

Any burst build for thief is thrown out and right into the trash. Can we even kill anyone in a decent time with 70% crit damage??? I already have a hard time killing tanky classes with 100% crit damage. This is assuming I go almost full glass…

Right now i have 109% Crit Damage.

With the change i will drop to 76%. Don’t know how you can only have 775 ferocity if you have 107% crit dmg right now. With with full berserk alone you will have 745 ferocity, add to that 100 ferocity from Rune of Scholar and the ferocity from your trait and you should be around 1100-1200 ferocity.

Trinkets and the jewels for accesoiries are gonne get massive nerf. Ruby orbs also. Funny thing is armor and weapons will have the smallest nerf (maybe even small boost). But the trinkets, rune sets, are such a massive nerf this will become a prob.)

Even traitlines will become 20% crit damage instead of 30%

Since thief solely relies on burst, this nerf will be crazy hard. Without burst, it’s very hard to make a thief succesfull. Like with 100% crit hit damage from cloacking, backstab will receive not a 10% nerf but a 30-45% nerf… Crazy man. I hate thiefs in wvw too (and some numbers are way to high atm, like 7k backstabs on full tank guardian), but this nerf goes to far.

But be happy, Celestial nerf is way worse.

I’ll be going from about 211% crit damage to 178%. Raw crit damage dropping by about 15.6%, overall DPS by considerably less than that since my crit rate is only about 65-70% most of the time. Difference is probably the same as whether or not First Strikes is active.

Having a hard time getting mad. Anyone got some tips?

Oh kitten… Forgot the traits

Panic Post ftw!

So Its 150+71 = 221%

Still…My bs will miss those 30% crit dmg

Mira.

With 30pts in Critical Strike you will have 300 Ferocity not 150.

I not sure with the food so i’ll forget about it for now. Your base ferocity will be at 1139 or 75% crit damage. Compare to the 113% you have right now.

Its a 33% nerf. Which is quite a lot. But crit damage is only part of your damage. Its not a 33% nerf of your damage.

I’ll still continue with basic number from gear and trait alone. You should be around 2400-2500 power and 60% crit chance. Lets say you are doing a heartseeker when the target is at 100% hp.

1100 × 2400 × 1/2600 = 1015 dmg. (i took 1100 for weapon dmg and 2400 as power)

If you add up your crits. In average you gonna do 1015 × 0.60 × 2.53 = 1541 damage
With the new stats, in average you gonna do 1015 × 0.60 × 2.25 = 1370 damage

That’s a nerf of 9.18% of your damage. That is pretty much what they said there were doing. A 10% nerf for a full DPS build.

Yup nerfed to make other build shines instead of improving other builds.

“Put simply, if critical damage-stacked builds are more effective than other approaches, the build diversity decreases.”

A sad day indeed.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yup nerfed to make other build shines instead of improving other builds.

“Put simply, if critical damage-stacked builds are more effective than other approaches, the build diversity decreases.”

A sad day indeed.

Buffing without ever nerfing, results in power creep. Which is very bad.

Actually, the only thing left to balance things out is a nerf to condition duration food down from +40% to +10% and maybe some changes in condition scaling.
As for roaming and fighting opponents, which are NOT geared towards conditions(which need a nerf), just consider one thing: Your damage might be lower, but your opponent will either dish out less damage, too, or be less tanky to compensate for the loss of damage.
Many players run soldiers or knight armor with zerk trinkets right now and exploit any other source of critical damage with ricidulous overscaling(like crit food). These players will be affected by the change way harder, than the all-in glasscanons out there, so in the end, even with the change, it will even out in the end.

Thaddeus.4891:

Mira.

With 30pts in Critical Strike you will have 300 Ferocity not 150.

I not sure with the food so i’ll forget about it for now. Your base ferocity will be at 1139 or 75% crit damage. Compare to the 113% you have right now.

Its a 33% nerf. Which is quite a lot. But crit damage is only part of your damage. Its not a 33% nerf of your damage.

I’ll still continue with basic number from gear and trait alone. You should be around 2400-2500 power and 60% crit chance. Lets say you are doing a heartseeker when the target is at 100% hp.

1100 × 2400 × 1/2600 = 1015 dmg. (i took 1100 for weapon dmg and 2400 as power)

If you add up your crits. In average you gonna do 1015 × 0.60 × 2.53 = 1541 damage
With the new stats, in average you gonna do 1015 × 0.60 × 2.25 = 1370 damage

That’s a nerf of 9.18% of your damage. That is pretty much what they said there were doing. A 10% nerf for a full DPS build.

All right in theory, but you forget one thing… Backstab will get such a huge nerf, that it will maybe even be not worth the inatiative considering autoattack will deal nearly the same amount without any costs.

this sounds like the final coup de grâce for my beloved d/d thief. i have not yet decided wether to join the condi crowd or start practicing with my warrior (although, the -8% signet heal reduce my regen from 780 to only 750…needs buff!)

d/d is kitten now even more, no love for backstab, game over man, game over…

I hate how they disguise the biggest nerf to thieves by telling us that they want all the builds to be more viable, this is the biggest kitten you to our class and in no way an attempt to balance. What they are doing is making sure we are all corraled into condi thieves because well thats just the way the game is going I guess.
I spent so much money getting EVERYTHING ascended and now I gotta start over, what the hell anet…

This makes any backstab spec obsolete. Can I get an Ascended gear refund? I won’t be able to play my build after this over-nerf.

I mean, I understand the decision to nerf it for PvE as berserker was too dominant in DPS, but Thieves and their mixed PvE and WvW experience is completely overlooked with this.

I’d have less of an problem with balance changes were it not for the horrible Ascended gear grind locking you into a single character and spec.

Thieves are obviously bad in sPvP with only 50% critical bonus damage, so how can they hope to compete in WvW with a mere 80% critical bonus damage?

In a game ruled by condi, they slap us this hard?

does anything forget to consider if this hurts thieves more than other classes? i think thats an important perspective to have in this situation. and if so…wtf do we get for the indirect nerf?

Thieves deal 15% less dmg
+
Guardians + 3000HP
Guardians + Retaliation Damage scales with condition damage instead of power
Warriors +1000 Toughness
Elementalists + Stone Heart : You cannot be critically hit while attuned to earth.

I wonder if we have a base ferocity at all and if so how high it is.

Do you guys know anything about that?

MatthijsB.4731:

I wonder if we have a base ferocity at all and if so how high it is.

Do you guys know anything about that?

it’s mentioned that all classes start with 0 points in ferocity.

Interceptor.2653:

That’s about a 21.8% nerf, but only at a 100% crit rate. Don’t forget that your DPS includes non-crits.

I have 68% critical chance with Signet of Agility and 75% if I Side Strike. Plus, since there’s always at least one warrior I have 88% and 95% thanks to Fury, with Banner of Discipline I can easilly crit every hit.

I have 106% critical damage. With the new stat, I’ll have 72%, so I’ll suffer a total 34% damage nerf.

Classes with Precision and Ferocity in the same traitline will suffer more for this change.

Lucky Shot.7650:

I have 106% critical damage. With the new stat, I’ll have 72%, so I’ll suffer a total 34% damage nerf.

No, your damage is dropping by less than 13%. You need to remember to 1) add the base damage boost, 2) calculate your damage relative to the old value, and 3) understand that you are not going to “crit every hit”.

Classes with Precision and Ferocity in the same traitline will suffer more for this change.

You might have overkill Precision in your build. I have Lyssa runes, for kitten’s sake, and not even I have as much base crit as you do.

Interceptor.2653:

Lucky Shot.7650:

I have 106% critical damage. With the new stat, I’ll have 72%, so I’ll suffer a total 34% damage nerf.

No, your damage is dropping by less than 13%. You need to remember to 1) add the base damage boost, 2) calculate your damage relative to the old value, and 3) understand that you are not going to “crit every hit”.

Classes with Precision and Ferocity in the same traitline will suffer more for this change.

You might have overkill Precision in your build. I have Lyssa runes, for kitten’s sake, and not even I have as much base crit as you do.

I’m talking about pve. 60% (base crit chance+)8% (singet of agility)+ 20% (fury)+8% (banner of discipline)=96%. +7% (Side Strike)= 101%. Now come and tell me I don’t crit every hit. Of course I’m talking pve, not wvw.

Edit: got it, since my crit damage is actually 256% and I’ll drop to 222, I’m in fact suffering a 13,2% damage reduction.

Lucky Shot.7650:

I’m talking about pve. 60% (base crit chance+)8% (singet of agility)+ 20% (fury)+8% (banner of discipline)=96%. +7% (Side Strike)= 101%. Now come and tell me I don’t crit every hit. Of course I’m talking pve, not wvw.

OK, sure: you don’t crit every hit. Much of your chance is situational and relies on things outside of your control.

Edit: got it, since my crit damage is actually 256% and I’ll drop to 222, I’m in fact suffering a 13,2% damage reduction.

Which is pretty close to the 10% that they mentioned. I think it would be closer if you had more balance in the tripod. I am not accustomed to seeing so much crit chance in a build that’s not using on-crit effects.

And what happens to the valkyrie wvw backstab thieves? Nearly all dmg comes from backstab(with hiddenkiller) as a 100% crit and to some extend cnd and autohit.
The power stays the same, but your crit dmg will be lower, so in a 100% crit scenario you will deal less backstab dmg excatly as your crit dmg will sink. That means you do with 100% crit dmg 8000 dmg and after that you have maybe 70% and deal 5600 dmg with backstab.

Is this accurate or am i wrong cause you will always crit with backstab and if everything is in that moment the same except the crit dmg you will lose a lot.

Valthan.9127:

And what happens to the valkyrie wvw backstab thieves? Nearly all dmg comes from backstab(with hiddenkiller) as a 100% crit and to some extend cnd and autohit.
The power stays the same, but your crit dmg will be lower, so in a 100% crit scenario you will deal less backstab dmg excatly as your crit dmg will sink. That means you do with 100% crit dmg 8000 dmg and after that you have maybe 70% and deal 5600 dmg with backstab.

Is this accurate or am i wrong cause you will always crit with backstab and if everything is in that moment the same except the crit dmg you will lose a lot.

you can always spam stealth + HS.

It’s even ranged <3

What can I say… HELLO WILDSTAR my body is ready and so is my mind by now.

Goodbye d/d stealth and crit build! Critical damage of backstab before 8k now 5.5k! Why like this??? Now i have to start from scratch all over again! I started to lose interest in playing now

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yup nerfed to make other build shines instead of improving other builds.

“Put simply, if critical damage-stacked builds are more effective than other approaches, the build diversity decreases.”

A sad day indeed.

Buffing without ever nerfing, results in power creep. Which is very bad.

Not really. People are throwing around the term without knowing the exact definition. Power Creep is when new content that is introduced causes older content to become obsolete.

This can be countered changing the old content to involve the new content or by designing the new content to constantly require access to old content to work. But the concept remains the same. For traits, its all about its level of appeal.

And for thief, from what I have been taught, there are not as many appealing traits/utilities as there should be. If they were to be buffed so that they would be more viable in builds then not only will Arenanet open up builds but effectively decrease the number of backstab builds. In a sense, backstab builds would get nerfed without actually getting nerfed because the players would find other traits and utilities as appealing as the traditional backstab build.

So no I disagree. Real nerfing should be reserved for blatantly overpowered design.

EDIT: Discussion

Quote by Risren:

power creep is when over a game’s lifetime the numbers and damage get higher and more rediculous, look at vanillawow, look at pandaland, you have now seen lightspeed powercreep.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Not really. People are throwing around the term without knowing the exact definition.

You speak as if this term is in the OED.

Power Creep is when new content that is introduced causes older content to become obsolete.

Oh look, Wikipedia.

That’s only one possible meaning for the term, your classic Everquest-style definition. I’m pretty sure that people can figure out from context what it means in this thread. Definition scolds are irritating.

See what I did there? I used a word that has more than one meaning.

There is a difference between a definition and an interpretation. Interpretations can be wrong.

yolo swaggins.2570:

There is a difference between a definition and an interpretation. Interpretations can be wrong.

Is something defined if it doesn’t appear in any respectable dictionary? “Power creep” is nothing but a colloquial term that describes itself to you.

Perhaps some day Merriam Webster will ruin someone’s morning (see: “mission creep”, which is surely a linguistic ancestor, here), but that day is not today.

yolo swaggins.2570:

There is a difference between a definition and an interpretation. Interpretations can be wrong.

If that is the case, then your interpretation of “Buffing without ever nerfing, results in power creep” is wrong.

You know what, I am not about to argue with you about the semantics of a term. If you want to destroy a term by using multiple interpretations, then go ahead. All its going to do is turn the term into a garnish for debate and cause it to lose any substance it may have.

yolo swaggins.2570:

You know what, I am not about to argue with you about the semantics of a term. If you want to destroy a term by using multiple interpretations, then go ahead. All its going to do is turn the term into a garnish for debate and cause it to lose any substance it may have.

I’m sorry but you’re the one making up your own definition on what “power creep” means using your own interpretation that is wrong.

“Power Creep is when new content that is introduced causes older content to become obsolete.”

That is simply wrong because new content can obsolete old content and still not a power creep. Just look at the new Pistol Whip making the old Pistol Whip obsolete. Now tell me if that is your definition of a “power creep”. The new Pistol Whip is still crap compare to what it used to be.

Better yet, look at the old and new Shortbow and tell me if that is your definition of “power creep”.

It’s not semantics, you’re just wrong.