Guild Wars 2

What you guys think about a full dire armor, trinkets and weapons? Has anyone run with dire armor for p/d condition build? Throw in some bleeding runes.

It’ll work, but your attacks will deal less direct damage due to the lack of power that the Carrion alternative will give you. I think that you’re actually better off with Carrion (you should have 30 in SA anyway), but that’s just me. You could try 100% Carrion trinkets with Dire armour, or mix and match them to min-max between Power, Vitality, Toughness, and Condition Damage.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Condition-bunker/first

I run full dire and imho it works much better than carrion. If you’re running p/d you’re a condition thief and thus need more toughness and vitality simply to outlast your opponent. In other words: condi builds can take a while to kill someone so you need to be able to stay alive for that amount of time. The power is also wasted stat, as it won’t make that huge of a difference in my dps since your precision should be low (another wasted stat on a p/d condi build) and you don’t have much to any crit damage. There’s just no real point to sacrifice your defense for some extra power- you don’t need it.

it is just OP and conditions should be changed in the way they need ad least another stat but condition damage to be effective.

Condition Duration should just be a separate stat just like Crit-Damage.

Daendur.2357:

it is just OP and conditions should be changed in the way they need ad least another stat but condition damage to be effective.

Direct damage has dodges, blocks, & blind to mitigate damage, but require smart use and anticipation. You gotta see it coming. But those things also work against condition skills, and on top of that conditions can be nullified with cleanse. You’ve got 1 more tool against conditions than you do against direct damage.

Dee Jay.2460:

Condition Duration should just be a separate stat just like Crit-Damage.

Condition duration is a separate stat. Do you mean it should be more available on gear in addition to Givers weapons? I think that players are traiting and gearing quite well for +100% condition duration already without that stat on gear. To be able to have more would just be wasted.

Seras.5702:

Direct damage has dodges, blocks, & blind to mitigate damage, but require smart use and anticipation. You gotta see it coming. But those things also work against condition skills, and on top of that conditions can be nullified with cleanse. You’ve got 1 more tool against conditions than you do against direct damage.

I think you forgot toughness.

They should half condition damage and conitions duration so to make the stat “condition duration” mandatory in a condition build.
And add another stat “condition critical” to make conditions deal a good dmg…

i think even if you running condition dmg, power also putsmore pressure .
condition tick in average 100 per seconds per stack (in bleeding for exp) so 300 more direct dmg from carrion grear is compare to 3 stacks of bleeding

so ye toughness would give you more space for error but will yield much less dmg over time and against builds that counter conditions it would take you much longer time to fight

so i dont think you should dismiss carrion gear (rabid more suitable for mesmer for exp as they cause bleed when crit)

Depends on how you build. My bleeds tick for 150-160, with 3K armor and 20K+ health in Wvw. I don’t really miss not having power.

Daendur.2357:

Seras.5702:

Direct damage has dodges, blocks, & blind to mitigate damage, but require smart use and anticipation. You gotta see it coming. But those things also work against condition skills, and on top of that conditions can be nullified with cleanse. You’ve got 1 more tool against conditions than you do against direct damage.

I think you forgot toughness.

They should half condition damage and conitions duration so to make the stat “condition duration” mandatory in a condition build.
And add another stat “condition critical” to make conditions deal a good dmg…

You’re right. Toughness is yet another way to mitigate direct damage

I don’t think condition duration could be a viable stat, because in PvP you’d never get enough to matter since gear is statless. In WvW conditions with +250% duration would be cleansed long before they’d fall off, making stacking that pointless. And the problems with conditions in PvE have been covered enough to know that adding +condition duration stats would make it even more broken.

However, I will concede to condition crit. Reducing condition damage on the whole and adding a cond crit % stat would broaden the condition stat necessities. However, that would open up a new mechanic. As it is, many professions can benefit from direct damage crits. Would condition crits be lumped into that category (OP)? More than likely you’d have to add new traits and sigils that benefit from condition crit procs. Otherwise, there’d be no need for them. It would just be needlessly making the combat mechanics more complex.

Daendur.2357:

it is just OP and conditions should be changed in the way they need ad least another stat but condition damage to be effective.

It is op as hell, I know because I’ve been running it the last 6 months. The dire stats make it borderline ridiculous. However, this is not really a thief problem. It’s a general problem of condition builds that allow you to get both high defense and offence.
Ofc, the p/d build is hard countered by a d/p thief or a regen warrior with lemon grass (will be a draw at best), but being counterable does not mean that it can’t still be overpowered.

It’s not a thief related problem and i didn’t state that. I think conditions should be reworked for everyone, obviously.
Lemongrass can be countered by veggie pizza…
And of course we have a second weaponset to counter for example d/p thieves…

Quakeman.9378:

I run full dire and imho it works much better than carrion. If you’re running p/d you’re a condition thief and thus need more toughness and vitality simply to outlast your opponent. In other words: condi builds can take a while to kill someone so you need to be able to stay alive for that amount of time. The power is also wasted stat, as it won’t make that huge of a difference in my dps since your precision should be low (another wasted stat on a p/d condi build) and you don’t have much to any crit damage. There’s just no real point to sacrifice your defense for some extra power- you don’t need it.

Nailed it.

@Above, why would you go for 100% condi duration? 90% of your opponents have condition removal of some sort, I run with 65%, it’s plenty enough imo.. I keep my opponents stacked with about 10~ stacks of bleed, you can’t go much higher vs condi removal anyways.

How do Dire stats (cond/tough/vit) compare to Apothecary (tough/heal/cond)?

I have used it and still do, and, to better answer your question, let my ask, what do you primarily plan to do with your build? Are you asking can I deal damage with these stats? Yes absolutely you can. Mostly condition, and not the most possible amount of condi dmg, but condi dmg nonetheless. However if your goal is to roam in WvW then yes yes yes! In my opinion these stats are OPTIMAL for that. I hope I answered your question

Also, sorry others, but I gotta say I agree 100% with Quakeman and his reasoning on why the stat combo is good for condi dmg in a condi dmg build. Particularly in WvW.

So, OP I want to answer your question more thouroghly, but to do that, you should respond to mine. If I did a good enough job already for you then very well, and GL out there.

freelancecoma.8629:

So, OP I want to answer your question more thouroghly, but to do that, you should respond to mine. If I did a good enough job already for you then very well, and GL out there.

Yes you answered my question and i wanted this build to be tanky condition for solo roaming while taking on 2 or 3 ppl at one time. I know that depends on my skill and utilities. I decided to go with 2 superior runes of the krait, 2 super runes of the afflicted and 2 super runes of torment. Since utilities always change to adapt to different fights so i will use utilities that compliment the runes and mu play-style

Fade.7658:

Depends on how you build. My bleeds tick for 150-160, with 3K armor and 20K+ health in Wvw. I don’t really miss not having power.

i put as an example 100 tick but care to explain how you get 2350 condition dmg? (160 bleed tick)

i can only have it if i’ll get full dire set will give about 1400+250 with soc+186 crystal+70 cake+100 with sob+165 migh (with 5 stacks)+118 with undead runes =2289 which gives 156 bleed tick

but with no soc and sob and might you’ll have 1656 which gives 125 tick and still 300 more direct dmg is better than 60 … so some ppl will also take rabid as crit hits does 150% more base dmg

so even with 3k armor if warrior catch you with stunlock it doesnt really matter if you had 2600 armor

but again depends on player game play as dire gives you more room for mistakes and less dmg

messiah.1908:

Fade.7658:

Depends on how you build. My bleeds tick for 150-160, with 3K armor and 20K+ health in Wvw. I don’t really miss not having power.

i put as an example 100 tick but care to explain how you get 2350 condition dmg? (160 bleed tick)

i can only have it if i’ll get full dire set will give about 1400+250 with soc+186 crystal+70 cake+100 with sob+165 migh (with 5 stacks)+118 with undead runes =2289 which gives 156 bleed tick

but with no soc and sob and might you’ll have 1656 which gives 125 tick and still 300 more direct dmg is better than 60 … so some ppl will also take rabid as crit hits does 150% more base dmg

so even with 3k armor if warrior catch you with stunlock it doesnt really matter if you had 2600 armor

but again depends on player game play as dire gives you more room for mistakes and less dmg

I’ve changed my build some since I posted, but this is the build in question:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|a.5q.h1n.8.5q.h1j.d12.0.d12|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|1q.712.1q.712.1q.712.1q.714.1q.714.1q.714|2x.d12.2x.d12.3x.d17.2x.d12.3x.d17.2w.0|5.0.u346.f2.k37|30.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

On the last tab, labeled manual, you can input stats not able to be listed elsewhere. They are also unable to be saved in templates, so you’d have to input the following:

+250 Condition damage (from Sigil of Corruption, 25 stacks)
+250 Vitality (From maxed out WvW Guard defense ability)

Under the buff tab you’ll have to input 4 under stacks of might.

I conservatively counted 4 stacks of might in the template, hence the 150-160 estimate. I did not count any orb of power bonuses from WvW. That comes out to 2234 condition damage, which is 154 damage per stack.

This also comes with 75% bleed duration, 3014 Armor, and 20,995 health (before WvW bonuses from PPT.

Edit: I’m thinking about swapping out the runes for traveler’s, for a second stun break. I’d lose some condition damage and 20% duration though, so I’m not sure yet.

I do agree with some of the above posters that another stat needs to be added in order for conditions to be as strong as they currently are. If you want to go with a dps build you have to stack power and precision and critical damage. You can mix in defensive stats if you want to but each defensive stat you boosts takes away from your dps while each dps stat you stack takes away from your survivability. Condition damage is the only thing really required to use conditions and with stat combos like dire, you can become both an offensive and defensive powerhouse with one armor set. I am not talking about just adding more stat combinations but requiring condition builds to forfeit defensive stats to gain dps like power builds.

Daendur.2357:

It’s not a thief related problem and i didn’t state that. I think conditions should be reworked for everyone, obviously.
Lemongrass can be countered by veggie pizza…
And of course we have a second weaponset to counter for example d/p thieves…

They will still have too much regen. Without the +50% given by the food, the sneak attack bleeds simply aren’t enough to bring down a regen warrior. Perhaps if he just stays there and fights, you might eventually manage to down him, but in practice he has all day to just move away from you.
You will never win against d/p thief because you can’t apply enough pressure before they can stealth and remove your conditions. In fact, even p/d vs. p/d is often endless simply due to shadow refuge.

Beating a regen warrior is easy as pie on a p/d thief, even if they initiate combat just get out of it long enough to put on spider venom and make sure you have shortbow equipped and whittle them down like you do everyone else. Poison effects passive healing greater than it does burst heals in practice only, because most people will cleanse poison before popping burst heal but they can’t cleanse it before that passive tick goes.

A good p/d thief can kill about 5 people at a time easily, not sure why they don’t get much credit. It isn’t fast and sometimes isn’t pretty but as they say in sports, an ugly win is still a win.

Great now am not sure what to do now. Isn’t mixing power in with this build a waste without crit damage and precision. I mean i know adding power will allow me to hit harder but how does that extra power stack up against having extra condition damage?

ionic.2106:

Great now am not sure what to do now. Isn’t mixing power in with this build a waste without crit damage and precision. I mean i know adding power will allow me to hit harder but how does that extra power stack up against having extra condition damage?

You can mix in both, just giving up some toughness or vitality is all. It obviously adds to your up front damage, and you aren’t expected to do massive crits on a condition build anyway. That dosent mean that adding power is useless though. Those situations where you arent just roaming and manage to sneak into an enemy keep on a whim, you’ll have an easier time killing off outer wall siege, as just a single example.
I’m very new to thief, but I do run a condition warrior for roaming, and the philosophy of gear is basically the same~

Quakeman.9378:

I run full dire and imho it works much better than carrion. If you’re running p/d you’re a condition thief and thus need more toughness and vitality simply to outlast your opponent. In other words: condi builds can take a while to kill someone so you need to be able to stay alive for that amount of time. The power is also wasted stat, as it won’t make that huge of a difference in my dps since your precision should be low (another wasted stat on a p/d condi build) and you don’t have much to any crit damage. There’s just no real point to sacrifice your defense for some extra power- you don’t need it.

You’re 100% right on the money here. I have nothing more to add.

In PvE, Dire set scale really well with Tuning Crystal buffs.

2400 power, 2000 condition and 2600 armor versus 1950 power , 2300 condition and 3000 armor , will do more ~33% dmg but will take more ~10% dmg

there is a video of necro testing power build, condition build and hybrid build and also with 2 ppl killing in pve
the results was that 2 conditions build players dont kill faster that 1 condition player and that hybrid build kill faster than condition or power builds so…(5 seconds faster )
its all depends on your game style . if you think you safe enough with 2600 armor versus 3000 go with more power if you wanna bunker or dont want to take any risk go full dire

and as p/d thief who usually run with shadow step and the trait which cleanse condition when stealth you basically need more toughness so i wouldnt recommend full carrion but mix with dire or rabid

@Master of Timespace – regen warrior are hard when they start to run away i usually take them with 10 bleed stacks and 6 torment stacks but when they go 50% hp they start to run away fast and i cant catch them

against d/p thieves its basically if i manage not to miss my cnd i will win, as d/p have more room for mistake with initiative management i will take caltrops to use when he shadow refuge and use shadow strike and dodge with caltrops to wear them down at the start and stay away from them . but yes its 50%/50% chance as they can get lucky with hs

@ionic – sometimes having sneak attack to do more 500 dmg will take your enemy down faster before it heals than doing 30 dmg more with condition. and again if you are medium player go with full dire and play safe

and again we dont want it to be OP build

I decided to go full dire and once i get better i will add carrion.