Guild Wars 2

as the title states, i simply can’t play it. after finishing the daredevil traitline (farmed exclusively in wvw mind you so it took a while), it appeared to me that anet wanted to create a rogue-brawler, something that would not work given core thief’s mechanics. but i played it anyway, and had a blast. vaulting around like an idiot, even winning a couple 1v1’s here and there. bandit’s defense even saved me a couple times, (though it got me killed more than that) but something was missing. that thing was sustain.
playing revenant after finishing daredevil showed me a class that had both sustain and low cooldown skills that did immense damage. revenant has damage mitigation, a respectable health pool, and you can stack some toughness without sacrificing much damage, if any at all. if one were to do this on thief, as i noticed, damage output suffers greatly.
i suppose the point of the rant is to ask how thief main players deal with this and what they would think about a rework.

Well… Just keep pushing yourself.
Reflect on fights even if you win them, what could you have done better? Consider all tools that we have and try again.
Personally I just wouldn’t want to play anything else so I just keep trying until I find a working method that I still find enjoyable.

After I unlocked DD a few days ago, I started running a staff/PP trickery/acro/DD power build in both sPvP and WvW, and I’m having some of the most fun I’ve had since I started playing the game. I’m running the new heal plus plus signet of agility for more endurance recovery so I can zip in and out of fights and zone the melee with my pistols.

I did a test stream the first night I started and recorded the whole thing so I can go back and see where I messed up and know where I could have played much better. I’m having a blast, and while I the build could use a bunch more tweaking and I need more experience, I love it. I hope you can find some enjoyment with it soon.

First of all, let me say this: every player has at least one profession he/she just can not play. I, for example, could never play an elementalist, even though everyone is telling me that it is the most braindead class in the game. Thief has a very unique and complex role in conquest, so maybe you just need to learn how to play it. And yes, you will lose most 1v1s, it’s been like this for a while, and naturally it’s for the best: if thieves could play bruisers, why would we need to ever play other professions?

On the other hand, thief IS harder to play nowadays. I don’t think it needs a rework in the sense you mean. Thief needs to stay a glassy burst profession to keep its identity, and only weird roleplayers would ask thief to ressemble and elementalist: if I want to play a bruiser, I play another profession. But most of the other professions are over tuned, and will probably receive heavy nerfes.

Thief with daredevil is the funniest build I played since I started GW2, so for me thief is perfectly fine. The other builds are over the top, that’s all. And in particular revenant, since you mention it.

I am driven by pure will power, i get rekt but that is because i do not play other class’s, so I do not know the builds they play and there for do not know when to back off, what to look for and when the best time to interrupt is (this is my problem). I feel that Hot is basically a new game when it comes to pvp because everyone’s old play style/builds are so much different so thats a good thing for me.

the only, or best build is what your own, what you feel is right. i run "uncatcahble escapist absolution and dash on staff as a mraurder thief and i loving it, but a lot of thieves would say its a total waist using them traits.

In all honesty i have maind thief for 1.4k hours over 2 years, i have spent a lot of time/effort/gold on it, i am not going to just abadon it over this marketing stunt anet did with ignoring balance and making money from sell HoT. hope this new update help’s us.

Playing thief is very simple : you’re softcountered by almost everything, and hardcountered by most “meta” builds.

Don’t fool yourself, against equally or higher skilled opponents you don’t stand a chance most of the time.

Reason : everything you do some other class does it better. Even mobility.

muscarine.5136:

Reason : everything you do some other class does it better. Even mobility.

No class is more mobile than thief. Mesmer can somewhat compete with Portal, but on a long CD. Whether or not mobility is sufficient to give thief a role in pvp is another matter.

Sorel.4870:

muscarine.5136:

Reason : everything you do some other class does it better. Even mobility.

No class is more mobile than thief. Mesmer can somewhat compete with Portal, but on a long CD. Whether or not mobility is sufficient to give thief a role in pvp is another matter.

Warrior, Ranger/Druid, Necro’s with flesh Golems, Ele’s and even guards under certain conditions all got comparable or even better horizontal mobility.
We only excel at vertical mobility nowadays.

Vornollo.5182:

Sorel.4870:

muscarine.5136:

Reason : everything you do some other class does it better. Even mobility.

No class is more mobile than thief. Mesmer can somewhat compete with Portal, but on a long CD. Whether or not mobility is sufficient to give thief a role in pvp is another matter.

Warrior, Ranger/Druid, Necro’s with flesh Golems, Ele’s and even guards under certain conditions all got comparable or even better horizontal mobility.
We only excel at vertical mobility nowadays.

sb5 is so stronk! i even use it to “safe stomp” because of the blind lol

Sorel.4870:

muscarine.5136:

Reason : everything you do some other class does it better. Even mobility.

No class is more mobile than thief. Mesmer can somewhat compete with Portal, but on a long CD. Whether or not mobility is sufficient to give thief a role in pvp is another matter.

This is no longer the case since many months ago unfortunately. The only slight advantage we get comes from spammable no target vertical mobility.
But the only thing that makes it slightly better than everyone else is the fact that it’s spammable, otherwise it’s not exclusive to thieves.
When it comes to horizontal mobility, we’re just on par with many others – druids and wars come to mind.
We’re still fast mind you, but if you look at it, it means reaching the destination with very low ini/endurance. So, yea, we aren’t even the best at it, and like you said, why bother bringing a thief where a proper portal mesmer can bring a lot more to the table.

Sorry but we most definitely still the most mobile class in game. Dash with sb5 allows us to out run any class. Yes, even rev. Is it a small margin that we outmaneuver? Yes, it is quite a small margin. Regardless, it is still there if we build into it. The only reason we seem like we aren’t the most mobile is because we can’t always build into it and have the most optimal build for what we want to accomplish.

Having the best mobility =/= covering a set distance fast

Our resources regenerate quickly enough to maintain our mobility advantage. Again it’s not as big a margin as it was pre HoT but it’s still there. We are the fastest and overall most mobile class in the game. Unfortunately it’s not enough anymore. We do need buffs and others need mobility nerfs cause the margin of our mobility advantage needs to be a ton bigger if that’s how they are going to justify us being “viable”.

The Dare Devil with SB and SS is by far the most mobile class in the game by a mile. Nothing can catch that build even a Shiro Rev. Mix in even a small amount of stealth and a player can be out of visible distance before they unstealth.

I have to purposefully slow down to string out opponents otherwise the gap becomes too great for them and they run back to the herd.

Beeing mobile doesn’t means running fast, having spamable shadowstep or dash…

It means your ability of getting to/running from relevant places (arguabily keeping your ability to matter once you get there)… so portal mesmer has same mobility as thief on a spvp cenario. (Beeing able to do instant rotations outclasses a thief function of always beeing any place he is needed to +1, as a thief alone can’t possibily bunker a point, so his mobility usefullness is debatable)

For wvw I agree thief is by far the best mobility as it is the only that can reliabily follow a zerg indefinily and desingage any battle whenever is needed.

One important thing to point tho… is that this mobility king thief can’t duel anyone, is merely a scout bot… While a duelist/roamming thief traited for combat will still get caught by Shiro Rev close gap spam+quickness.

Wonder how we aren’t supposed to be able to fight anyone when my S/D thief (which is a mobility king btw) can always engage in a fight and win :/

Arguing that mobility requires heavy traiting is a complete falsehood, you only need to trait one thing and that’s dash. After that you are uber mobile and the rest of your stuff can be dedicated towards combat leaving you completely able to fight.

Even in pvp, while Mesmer’s portal can outmobility a thief on a rare usage. They require you to have preplaced the portal and can only happen 1 time every minute (If I’m correct on the cd’s) Thief has no cd on it’s mobility meaning over the duration of the game it still outclasses even the Mesmer’s portal.

I tried sd again last night, it tickles compared to staff or d/p not to mention the whole set is so clunky and ‘laggy’. #3 takes a good 1/2 a second to decide and work, aa locks up sometimes for a 1/2 again. It really needs some re work. This is with avg 40 ms

If you want to be good with thief in you have to learn about strategy, matchups, splits, rotations, and other classes and their builds. Then, you need to put the time in to practice fighting those builds, in 1v1 and in team fights. You need to train yourself to have real awareness, not tunnel vision. You need to realise that sometimes you have to watch something you’re not focusing because it might turn to target you and you don’t want to be caught off guard, and you have to do this while also seeing any other player that might be pulling off or arriving, and this includes points you’re not at, using the icons on the minimap.

As for this little side discussion on mobility, by builds used currently, only thief and mesmer have ports which don’t require a target. Revenants and guardians can only compete if they have a target. You have stealth. Stealth and port to a point, and nothing can chase you. Once there, position yourself so they cannot target you from their angle, and you can sit there until the point is decapped. Thieves have always out paced eles when they have lightning flash and ride the lightning, unless they also took FGS, but even then if you watch their cool downs you can go when they can’t keep up. Druid’s mobility can be compared to ride the lightning and FGS if they have staff and GS, but they have no shadow step. Bear that in mind, and their cool downs, and you’re fine with them too.

Ario.8964:

Wonder how we aren’t supposed to be able to fight anyone when my S/D thief (which is a mobility king btw) can always engage in a fight and win :/

Arguing that mobility requires heavy traiting is a complete falsehood, you only need to trait one thing and that’s dash. After that you are uber mobile and the rest of your stuff can be dedicated towards combat leaving you completely able to fight.

Even in pvp, while Mesmer’s portal can outmobility a thief on a rare usage. They require you to have preplaced the portal and can only happen 1 time every minute (If I’m correct on the cd’s) Thief has no cd on it’s mobility meaning over the duration of the game it still outclasses even the Mesmer’s portal.

If you traited your choice of dodge into mobility one could argue that this is already heavy spec.

Every build pay something if they spec into dash, especialy Cond builds who haven`t enough dmg without lotus trainning pressure… some builds lose easy acess to stealth by combo leap and 10% bonus dmg… Heck I had even to fit acro in my build just because I can`t afford to use dash and lose so much cond pressure.

So you need to sacrifice to have good mobility, is not baseline on daredevil…

A S/D can`t kill any bunker in the meta, it can`t even decide a bunker vs bunker with +1. If you can engage and kill on any fight you want with S/D thief that means you play a lot better than your opponent.

If you have the same ability level of your opponent what I said will aply, the mobility will serve nothing because once there you can`t kill the guy and be back fast to help elsewhere… so your mobility done nothing for your team in that case.

Even in the case that you got there fast right now any bunker can hold a thief almost forever on a duel, meaning your mobility is resumed to helping +1… otherwise thats a pseudo-mobility… a mobility that doesn`t impact in the game.

Mesmer portal mobility is not about the mesmer himself… is about beeing able to make instant rotations (like I said), in case you don`t know what that means it means that the mesmer can use portal to ’’transform’’ a mostly lost 2×2 into a instawin 3×1 elsewhere or trade places with someone having a hard time somewhere.

If a mesmer can`t win a duel, he will drop a portal there and leave, keeping the enemy frozen on that point (if the opponent leaves even briefly he will port, decap and bunk it) this allow him to try to 4×3 somewhere and snowball after very fast, by using the same portal, or if that fight fails, port the fail fight into that point to 3×1 smash that guy and win a point anyway.

Portal doesn`t mean a teleport once every cd, it means he puts pressure on a point while he is not there if you are bunker vs bunker with a enemy portal by your side, it means that point is mosly doomed, the moment you start to win the long bunker fight some gravity-illusions stuff will probabily happen there.

You can switch matchups and turn 1×2 – 2×1 into 2×2 – 1×1 however your team find better.

This strategical moblity plays on a bunker clearly outperform ‘’shortbow 5+dash’’ +1 strategical usage on terms of map presence and pressure.

Now i maked a bit more clear hope you understanded.

I got the portal thing but at the same time it also needs to be utilized properly by your team members. When fully utilized it can out perform a thief tactically but it requires players realizing what is going on. Only reason I claimed thief to be superior in that respect was that it’s mobility didn’t require all of your team to fully utilize it’s potential (though it never hurts to have them know what you’re doing)

Assuming equal skill level is a good thing but what is the “defined” skill level? Are we assuming everyone is pro? We assuming they are all noobs? Without that being defined we will never reach a clear point in the discussion because we could be arguing assuming different defined skill levels. My argument over the effectiveness of S/D is assuming the player using the thief is an above average player with knowledge of what every class does and their basic rotations with the ability to counter and react to their more advanced combos. Assuming the thief knows the burst combo for S/D and uses basi venom then it is very easy for them to take down a bunker in a +1 scenario as their combo will do enough damage to take them down while basi venom’s lockdown prevents them from reacting. That’s the only reason I’m asking about the defined skill level because the situation will be different depending on what type of players we are dealing with.

You could argue traiting dash is heavy investment but you can also argue it isn’t (especially compared to steal which requires you to take every steal focused trait in multiple lines to actually gain a benefit from.). Sure you have to take a whole line but really atm every thief build uses that line so it isn’t a huge deal to take that line. Dash is 1 trait that gives you high mobility, allows you to be nearly unrootable if you are managing dodges well, and provides damage reduction. Now I totally agree with you that there is sacrifice to get it but imo that’s how traiting should be and it’s only 1 trait (doesn’t seem like it’s too heavy of an investment). Yes you are right, it does depend on the build you are going for but that again goes into the what I believe to be healthy sacrifice, more offensive pressure for a sacrifice in defensive and tactical capability.

Summary,
I can concede the portal thing given the right situation. S/D most definitely can work, and dash is not heavy traiting imo.

Lightsbane.9012:

as the title states, i simply can’t play it. after finishing the daredevil traitline (farmed exclusively in wvw mind you so it took a while), it appeared to me that anet wanted to create a rogue-brawler, something that would not work given core thief’s mechanics. but i played it anyway, and had a blast. vaulting around like an idiot, even winning a couple 1v1’s here and there. bandit’s defense even saved me a couple times, (though it got me killed more than that) but something was missing. that thing was sustain.
playing revenant after finishing daredevil showed me a class that had both sustain and low cooldown skills that did immense damage. revenant has damage mitigation, a respectable health pool, and you can stack some toughness without sacrificing much damage, if any at all. if one were to do this on thief, as i noticed, damage output suffers greatly.
i suppose the point of the rant is to ask how thief main players deal with this and what they would think about a rework.

I am right there with you Lightsbane. I have an 80 thief that I’ve consistently died with since leveling. I just don’t get the class. Now I am in Maguuma trying to pick up HPs and it’s not going so well. I am sure it’s more me than anything, and in the right hands, the class is great. I just don’t have that touch. If you come across any good guides please share. As for now, I think I’ll tuck him away and switch to something else.