Thief should not be able to beat Druids, Dragonhunters, Mesmers, Necromancers or Scrappers in a fair 1v1 duel. Unless the gap between the players’ skill is vast.
Thiefs excel at flanking unsuspecting players and taking down people who have used their cooldowns beforehand. Thief is not a class for fair 1v1 duels.
@NorthernRedStar I disagree about Druids and particularly Necromancers, necros are actually easy pickings for a thief with Unhindered Combatant, when you are not fighting to defend a point. Especially when they are low on shroud. The thief gets rid of chills just with dodging, and the CCs usually have really big tells and can easily be dodged. If the CCs miss, the necro is as good as dead.
Herald, Scrapper, Dragonhunter and, to some degree Chrono, are tough 1v1 match-ups for a thief. Druids and eles can plain outsustain a thief but they can be bursted down too. Especially druids since they are usually rather squishy.
Yannir for males. (guard,thief,war,ele)
Sonya for females. (necro,rev,ranger,mes,engi)
All classes lvl 80.
Druids and necros are usually the easiest class to headshot lock.
Against necros you have to play careful when they have a lot of shrouds or when spectral armor trait procs, and against druids you have to watch out for the bristleback F2, but killing them 1v1 is doable.
Doable, but not exactly useful to do so, since it can be long. you have to understand, its not exactly that Thief rolls over dead instantly when he’s in 1v1, its just that thief and especially the D/P Dash build was not made for 1v1, and you’re wasting the build usefulness by engaging in them with no reason.
play few weeks and u can even get up to legendary division
I dont even know why some people thinks pvp rank = omg i am so pro
It took me only one week going from Amber to Diamond.
I went through Diamond tier 1 to Diamond tier 6 with 80% win rate.
But I got stuck in Diamond tier 7 for a month now. LOL
Thats kinda the problem.
Not saying you are a bad player, but a winrate of 55-60% would indicate matchmaking didnt carry you.
The more and longer winning streaks you had on your way to diamond, the more likely you dont deserve your rank.
Well, not deserve could be wrong. You can still be a player who deserves to be in leg 20.
But at least it shows that you never faced an opponent challenging enough to prove that you are where you belong.
I also disagree that thief can’t 1v1. While I play WvW and not sPvP, the only classes I have trouble with are trapper DH and scrapper, a good rev running retribution is a very serious pain, but they’re beatable. DH being the obvious counter to thief and traps melting you the moment you get caught, and scrapper can laugh at my burst and heal it off, or go mini sized twice to buy enough time for his cd’s to finish. Power rev is no issue without retribution; all the free stab means you can’t properly interupt and when you do you just get taunted from Eye for an Eye, weakness seems to be always on you and all the endurance just means more missed bursts and more stab. Druids are interupt bait as well as eles, warriors melt when the endure pains end and mesmers are doable, albeit annoying. Necro is thief bait, pure and simple. Not saying all is well in the thief world, but we aren’t worthless.
I also disagree that thief can’t 1v1. While I play WvW and not sPvP, the only classes I have trouble with are trapper DH and scrapper, a good rev running retribution is a very serious pain, but they’re beatable. DH being the obvious counter to thief and traps melting you the moment you get caught, and scrapper can laugh at my burst and heal it off, or go mini sized twice to buy enough time for his cd’s to finish. Power rev is no issue without retribution; all the free stab means you can’t properly interupt and when you do you just get taunted from Eye for an Eye, weakness seems to be always on you and all the endurance just means more missed bursts and more stab. Druids are interupt bait as well as eles, warriors melt when the endure pains end and mesmers are doable, albeit annoying. Necro is thief bait, pure and simple. Not saying all is well in the thief world, but we aren’t worthless.
Thief is astronomically better in WvW than sPvP because of how the class gets is performance due to scaling versus raw stat values, and how damage in sPvP is cut by almost 30% for the thief relative to other professions, which is also about 40% lower than in WvW baseline.
The state of balance in WvW, aside from a few very obviously overpowered builds, is much better than it is in sPvP.
Those reasons, and more, are why I refuse to play sPvP, Deceiver. The way you’re restricted on build variety and the clear imbalances between classes makes it no fun, it’s why I dropped reaper in sPvP and started thief in WvW; it’s more fun and I have more options to play how I want, rather than being forced into a complete set of stat amulet choices that may not even be available in that game mode. Yes, some things in WvW are broken, but the option to set up your class how you like is more available to you. I still see d/d cele ele and have a blast fighting them, as well as a cele rev (odd, but he made it work), funflame warriors and the infamous ghost trapper. A shame the game mode is in the state that it’s in.
It’s not about whether a thief can win a 1 v 1. It’s about whether a thief should spend time in a 1 v 1 instead of +1ing or decapping.
No.
You madame, are perhaps the most skilled interlocutor I have encountered. Your counter-argument, so full of reasoning, critical analytics, and bereft of logical fallacy, is indeed beyond reproach.
It’s not about whether a thief can win a 1 v 1. It’s about whether a thief should spend time in a 1 v 1 instead of +1ing or decapping.
No.
You sir, are perhaps the most skilled interlocutor I have encountered. Your counter-argument, so full of reasoning, critical analytics, and bereft of logical fallacy, is indeed beyond reproach.
She is right tho.
Creating a competitive PvP game and effectively removing the fighting role from one class is bad design.
If ‘+1ing’ was enough for the thief to be viable we would see them in the pro leagues.
I know its dangerous to make thief viable in 1v1 since we can choose our opponents, but in response to that restricting us from that role entirely is a lazy decision from development.
@ Dahkeus.8243
A thief can win against an opponent if he outskills them – other than that thief is pretty much very dead – every other class can hit as hard as a backstab with multiple skills and they usually don’t have to work towards it like a thief has to work towards a backstab (more or less) – they also have invulnerabilities, more than one in most cases, passive shields/protection/regen, they can have insane heals. A thief is fighting against a tank basically – every class can do that.
So – a thief can’t beat any opponent in a 1 vs 1 (equal skill and stuff) – with that metabattle is right (for once).
And that shouldn’t be the goal of a game. “Well, you can play thief, but sorry you can’t defeat anyone – you can either camp in stealth and run away or evade and run away” – always a good design, eh?!
And yes, it’s madame.
ETA: Oh and I’m a wvw player – we actually kill each other in that game mode and I would like to have proper chances to do so once again. Unfortunately everything is tied to each other so I have to hope for the balance team to see wvw for once and not only “Well thief decaps anyway, doesn’t need a buff” – I don’t care for pvp, sorry.
It’s not about whether a thief can win a 1 v 1. It’s about whether a thief should spend time in a 1 v 1 instead of +1ing or decapping.
No.
You sir, are perhaps the most skilled interlocutor I have encountered. Your counter-argument, so full of reasoning, critical analytics, and bereft of logical fallacy, is indeed beyond reproach.
She is right tho.
Creating a competitive PvP game and effectively removing the fighting role from one class is bad design.
If ‘+1ing’ was enough for the thief to be viable we would see them in the pro leagues.
I know its dangerous to make thief viable in 1v1 since we can choose our opponents, but in response to that restricting us from that role entirely is a lazy decision from development.
Thief is barely not in proleague. Ask any proleague players, thief is not far behind at all.
ETA (pic) and: I don’t need your help if you think that you can make the perfect build for me – I’m as fine as a thief can be.
I don’t think you need help either. Some players, however, do want help understanding why people say they might want to use X and coming up with builds of their own. Some of these players are going to try things based on what people like us are saying here. I was hoping to ask you some questions about various choices because, if I recall correctly, you’ve generally been against what might be considered "meta"for any PvP game-type whether it’s DD, DA, and apparently D/P as well.
@ Asrat: The role of +1 is in the pro leagues. It’s just done by revs because they can also contribute more to team fights and can bring unblockable CC.
@ Jana: Sorry for getting the pronouns wrong. Previous post corrected. Also, I think you’re actually agreeing with me. When I said it’s not about whether you can 1 v 1, I was speaking with regards to the OP who said they could 1 v 1 and my argument is that getting caught up in a 1 v 1 that will take a while to win generally isn’t a good idea since thieves don’t have the sustain to sit on a point and keep it contested when an enemy will generally rotate in and turn the 1 v 1 to a 2 v 1 or 2 v 2 at best. Instead, it’s better to let someone else 1 v 1, then utilize thief’s superior mobility to be able to assist and leave without leaving another fight at much of a handicap.
However, I do agree that the thief class should be balanced to be able to handle actual deep combat better since the +1 and decap role isn’t enough right now.
ETA (pic) and: I don’t need your help if you think that you can make the perfect build for me – I’m as fine as a thief can be.
I don’t think you need help either. Some players, however, do want help understanding why people say they might want to use X and coming up with builds of their own. Some of these players are going to try things based on what people like us are saying here. I was hoping to ask you some questions about various choices because, if I recall correctly, you’ve generally been against what might be considered "meta"for any PvP game-type whether it’s DD, DA, and apparently D/P as well.
I’m not against a meta, I’m against metabattle because their builds don’t make sense – in most cases. Have recently been there and it seems as if they changed a lot of stuff but I didn’t look further so I have no idea about their current thief builds.
So no, you don’t recall it correctly and maybe we should drop this discussion as you seem to remember only half of the things you want to call me out for.
@ Dahkeus: Ok, yes we probably mean the same. However back in the day it was often me holding a point and my warrior and guard buddies running across the map to cap (I have no real idea of pvp I was playing wvw in pvp).
@ Asrat: The role of +1 is in the pro leagues. It’s just done by revs because they can also contribute more to team fights and can bring unblockable CC.
However, I do agree that the thief class should be balanced to be able to handle actual deep combat better since the +1 and decap role isn’t enough right now.
Well. I watched the matches yesterday. I did not see any thieves. There was one in the first week (they lost)
However im generally against the proleague being the measurement of all.
The problem is just that it devalidates all ‘you need skill to play thief’ or ‘you need organized teams to play thief’ statements we are usually confronted with.
If thief got viable beyond a certain skill level or with good coordination it would become a pro class. I would be fine with that.
But unfortunately skill alone seems not to be enough.
The thiefs strenght depends not on you being good, but on your opponents being bad.
And glad we agree on that. I dont wish to go back to the 1v1 god class we used to be, but I’d much appreciate to beat 50% of all classes on equal skill and 90% on higher skill level.
And glad we agree on that. I dont wish to go back to the 1v1 god class we used to be, but I’d much appreciate to beat 50% of all classes on equal skill and 90% on higher skill level.
That is maybe applying to D/P (if played right), oh and P/D – but not to thief in general – it wasn’t “the class” that was “gods in 1 vs 1” it was certain builds.
And glad we agree on that. I dont wish to go back to the 1v1 god class we used to be, but I’d much appreciate to beat 50% of all classes on equal skill and 90% on higher skill level.
That is maybe applying to D/P (if played right), oh and P/D – but not to thief in general – it wasn’t “the class” that was “gods in 1 vs 1” it was certain builds.
The contrary is the case i believe. The class itself used to be good, certain builds were not.
I respect you for running power dd, its undoubtly the coolest build for a thief to use (and im pretty sure it used to be op too for cndbs combo)
But single or few weaponsets not being viable is something completely different unfortunately.
And even if only dp was playable: Inter-class balance is more important than intra-class.
If we have leveled the playing field we can and we should start working towards build diversity. The first goal should be to create a competitive enviroment, not to make everyone happy.
And its not like this problem was thief exclusive. Talk to dd eles, hammer warriors, trapper rangers…
Our problem is the clarity of purpose. Death blossom should finally be replaced with a power based attack.
And ofc I want second shadow and caithe’s auto-attack chain.
The contrary is the case i believe. The class itself used to be good, certain builds were not.
I respect you for running power dd, its undoubtly the coolest build for a thief to use (and im pretty sure it used to be op too for cndbs combo)
I never ran signets. I wasn’t a spawn camper – I didn’t go to wvw just to kill some noobs. Most classes/builds had a very good chance to beat me. It’s a long story actually but I’ve got maybe 4 salty whispers since I play and 2 of them were during my one week as a condi thief. So yes, thief was good but not god (maybe that was a typo but I’m really only arguing about the “god”). In fact all classes were and most of them had more than one viable build.
And even if only dp was playable: Inter-class balance is more important than intra-class.
If we have leveled the playing field we can and we should start working towards build diversity. The first goal should be to create a competitive enviroment, not to make everyone happy.
And its not like this problem was thief exclusive. Talk to dd eles, hammer warriors, trapper rangers…
Our problem is the clarity of purpose. Death blossom should finally be replaced with a power based attack.
And ofc I want second shadow and caithe’s auto-attack chain.
Inter class balance will be impossible as long as the traits are merged – that went with the June patch. Intra class balance may be possible for all classes but only for some selected builds.
I belive you confused inter with intra here, but I get what you mean.
God class was right, it was pretty much what thieves told me about themselves after three-hitting me in BV.
Saying ‘I purposely played a non-lamer build, so the class itself was not op’ is a little…odd.^^
The new trait system led to a dicrease in build diversity, but that process can be reversed whilst keeping the traits the way they are.
If they get rid of the power creep they also get rid of the need for traits to do as much as possible. Each trait could be a exclusive, narrow enchantement of specific skills, weapons or mechanics instead of reinforcing the class as whole.
They would augment your playstyle in a direction you want, but not dictate it.
Fro example a significant buff to stealth could be op on an on-demand access set like d/p, thats why its dangerous to give us one. But limiting that buff to d/d, where your main access to stealth is via a dangerous, hard to hit skill on high costs could potentially be in order.
I did and I think both is important as it’s pretty weird that all we have left is HoT and the game we had before is dead.
Edit: Ok, got that wrong. Mesmer could one shot you, a Hammer warrior could perma stun you and the list goes on – I think before june there was no class that was completely unviable – they were pretty much balanced, except cele ele and probably medi guard. Mesmer was probably in need of a buff and engi needed an overhaul as their stuff was either UP or OP but never okayish. I really fought all classes and all builds and NEVER ran from a fight – had no chance against engis though, their elite was just too OP. Killed them easily once it was nerfed.
I played/am playing D/D because I like the set the most – I’m not playing this game because I want to win, I’m playing it because I love my thief.
The traitmerge is no good as simple as that, you are very limited in your choices how to play and a lot of stuff needed for unpopular “niche” weaponsets is merged with rather useless stuff.
It might work for PvP and PvE but for wvw it doesn’t.
Just imagine you’ve got different roles in wvw and create builds for that, then you’ll realize that the traitmerge destroyed a lot of the possible builds we had. Also due to the fact that a lot of the weapon skills have been tied to the traits, contrahery to D/P and S/D who have that stuff on their set.
Edit: A lot of embarrassing typos and misunderstandings – I guess I better leave for a bit and drink some coffee.
ETA³: I have to add that: I think Intra class balance should come before Inter (I got it right this time around) as (my favourite example) : 2 cele eles before June: You could just faceroll your keyboard and not win or lose – if that is the case and mirror players aren’t capable of killing each other then something is very wrong, that goes for any class as it shows that that build doesn’t leave an opening. You can extend that to all weaponsets a class has got, they all should be able to beat each other. I think if you do it that way it’s easier to get to an overall balance than if you balance D/P thief against Hammer warrior and so on.
Thief should not be able to beat Druids, Dragonhunters, Mesmers, Necromancers or Scrappers in a fair 1v1 duel. Unless the gap between the players’ skill is vast.
Thiefs excel at flanking unsuspecting players and taking down people who have used their cooldowns beforehand. Thief is not a class for fair 1v1 duels.
Dp cant fight 1v1 in most cases but staff automaticly wins every duel exept condi mes.
Thief should not be able to beat Druids, Dragonhunters, Mesmers, Necromancers or Scrappers in a fair 1v1 duel. Unless the gap between the players’ skill is vast.
Thiefs excel at flanking unsuspecting players and taking down people who have used their cooldowns beforehand. Thief is not a class for fair 1v1 duels.
Dp cant fight 1v1 in most cases but staff automaticly wins every duel exept condi mes.
No it does not.
It wins against every nab. Even some dragonhunters. But a good guard, rev, thief, ranger(only the best), engi, mesmer
Is very capable of forcing you to disengage. You can deny most bursts due to insane amount of dodges, but the passive pressure is by far enough to send you running.
And you best damage skill its so telegraphed they can see it coming even if you are still on shortbow.
.