Guild Wars 2

instead of thinking “OMG i can’t beat this” , relax.

guess what the ultimate counter to stealth is?

block. every profession has it. even better ones are block +counterattack.

also anticipation is a big factor. I’m sorry guys but you can’t just blow all your skills at once on a thief like you can with other professions.

/thirdlinkinmysiggy

Agree. Nothing wrong with plain stealth as it was designed.

Stealth is not the problem here. Stealth is fine, only problem is the fact you can spam it using D/P. You won’t see people crying over D/D, that’s because for D/D you need a target.

Beside, this is the only kittening game that doesn’t have a skill that are able to detect stealth, it is just bullkitten. Anet need to make a stealth detector skill, preferably for rangers.

Buzzcrave.6197:

Stealth is not the problem here. Stealth is fine, only problem is the fact you can spam it using D/P. You won’t see people crying over D/D, that’s because for D/D you need a target.

Beside, this is the only kittening game that doesn’t have a skill that are able to detect stealth, it is just bullkitten. Anet need to make a stealth detector skill, preferably for rangers.

You mean like the “Sic ’Em” change that they’re talking about?

I look forward to sic em. Still will be able to destroy rangers, lol.

I don’t think “Sic ’Em” will have all that much of an effect, to be honest—as long as it’s a regular reveal time of 3-4 seconds. It’s a lackluster utility otherwise, so I doubt many Rangers will bother to swap out a better skill for it.

Main problem is D/P. Perma stealth definitely needs a nerf, however, Anet does not know how to get around it without destroying the class itself.

D/P permasteslth doesn’t need a nerf at all, it’s not even hard to counter and a Thief in stealth isn’t doing anything. People who complain about D/P permastealth in WvW just can’t get over the fact that they might just have to walk away.

VomitSpit.6843:

Main problem is D/P. Perma stealth definitely needs a nerf, however, Anet does not know how to get around it without destroying the class itself.

I think that’s the issue. they cannot gut the class without dealing with the permastealth behavior.

Incurafy.6329:

D/P permasteslth doesn’t need a nerf at all, it’s not even hard to counter and a Thief in stealth isn’t doing anything. People who complain about D/P permastealth in WvW just can’t get over the fact that they might just have to walk away.

yeah… just no for you and the OP

the threat of D/P thief is precisely that he is always stealthed wich means he always will have a backstab at the ready + the fact you cant see him at all wich means you are unable to counter defensive nor offesively as for run from him we both know it doesnt work as #3 skill just so happens to be a conveniently cooldownless shadowstep+blind

as for OP’s Block suggestion that is also exactly another reason why stealth is a bit unbalanced thief currently has no risk because stealth isnt broken when he hits a Blocking or Aegis or Invulnerable target. (hell this one fix might actually balance the whole class actually as it would make stealth counterable)

The only people who should worry about d/p are scrubs. Against average players, it takes effort. Against good players, it takes luck. Even if you do land it, its no guarentee you’ll get a crit on backstab unless you are traited for 100% in stealth.

Zacchary.6183:

The only people who should worry about d/p are scrubs. Against average players, it takes effort. Against good players, it takes luck. Even if you do land it, its no guarentee you’ll get a crit on backstab unless you are traited for 100% in stealth.

Yeah well if d/p ever gets nerfed the majority of bad thieves will be gone. It’s why us thieves get a bad rep, but eh, its a great starter/advanced weapon. Its just there is too much stealth :\. And if you have ever seen a d/p vs d/p thief fight, then you’ll understand why its so cheese.

I play D/p build but i think im not OP. Maybe i have a lot of chance to leave the fight. Good player dont have problem to defeat me. When i GO in stealth they dodge, move, use AOE, immobilize skill ecc ecc

Zacchary.6183:

The only people who should worry about d/p are scrubs. Against average players, it takes effort. Against good players, it takes luck. Even if you do land it, its no guarentee you’ll get a crit on backstab unless you are traited for 100% in stealth.

The scrubs are the ones who rely on permastealth and ruin the reputation of thieves.

stealth = cheating

Sanduskel.1850:

Zacchary.6183:

The only people who should worry about d/p are scrubs. Against average players, it takes effort. Against good players, it takes luck. Even if you do land it, its no guarentee you’ll get a crit on backstab unless you are traited for 100% in stealth.

The scrubs are the ones who rely on permastealth and ruin the reputation of thieves.

Maybe they only use stealth because they can’t play the class as easily as the others? Probably because you can’t mindlessly rotate skills on the thief? Probably because the class actually requires you to pay attention to a universal resource pool instead of cooldowns?

I don’t know….

Most games allow for unlimited stealth outside of combat but limit your ability to stealth in combat.

GW2 went the other way with mixed results.

My problem with stealth is that it is so beneficial, not just because it hides the Thief, but because of all the additional benefits like Healing, Condition cleansing, Stealth Attacks etc.

This means that you want to stealth as much as possible in almost every situation rather than reserving stealth as a defensive utility.

Condiction cleaning is the only usefull benefits of stealth. But we lose a condiction every 4 sec. Try to image a fight against a condiction necro or warrior, with their bow. I can clean bleed and 4 second after i have again bleed. And Maybe something else if the necro use AOE skill of scepter/dagger. And staff? With fear? >_<

Stealth should be broken by evades, not blind or block since those don’t require too much awareness. I wouldn’t mind if thief got a little buff somewhere else as long as evading their attack from stealth pops them out of stealth.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

instead of thinking “OMG i can’t beat this” , relax.

guess what the ultimate counter to stealth is?

block. every profession has it. even better ones are block +counterattack.

also anticipation is a big factor. I’m sorry guys but you can’t just blow all your skills at once on a thief like you can with other professions.

Stupidest argument in the world. What if the thief anticipates your anticipated moves and counters them? Should you anticipate that the thief will anticipate you anticipating? You can’t predict, its called luck. Nobody should be so heavily reliant on luck to counter a class.

Also, you don’t come out of stealth when you’re blocked. Try learning how the game works first before complaining about people complaining.

Stealth has no counter-play. “Sick ’em” will be the first of many anti-stealth skills for players. I’ve already told people that’s what they were going with when they put it on the arrow carts. The arrow cart was a test platform to see if it heavily disabled the thief from playing. It didn’t. Anti-stealth counter-play is coming…and its about friggin time.

Dee Jay.2460:

Most games allow for unlimited stealth outside of combat but limit your ability to stealth in combat.

GW2 went the other way with mixed results.

My problem with stealth is that it is so beneficial, not just because it hides the Thief, but because of all the additional benefits like Healing, Condition cleansing, Stealth Attacks etc.

This means that you want to stealth as much as possible in almost every situation rather than reserving stealth as a defensive utility.

Agreed. They wanted to handle stealth differently, and in the process they messed it up.

Imagi.4561:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Stealth is not the problem here. Stealth is fine, only problem is the fact you can spam it using D/P. You won’t see people crying over D/D, that’s because for D/D you need a target.

Beside, this is the only kittening game that doesn’t have a skill that are able to detect stealth, it is just bullkitten. Anet need to make a stealth detector skill, preferably for rangers.

You mean like the “Sic ’Em” change that they’re talking about?

What does it do? If it does a wide 1200 range aoe that reveal stealth, then it’ll be good. If not, it’ll be useless.

lol how is block a counter to stealth? even if you get blocked, evaded, or just flat out miss you won’t lose stealth and can instantly spam the attack again thanks to the wonderfully thought out stealth and inititative systems. The fact thieves exist at all is mind boggling, the only thing I can think of is that Anet was trying to boost sales by catering to the inept moron that needs training wheels to compete demographic.

Sweetbread.2679:

lol how is block a counter to stealth? even if you get blocked, evaded, or just flat out miss you won’t lose stealth and can instantly spam the attack again thanks to the wonderfully thought out stealth and inititative systems. The fact thieves exist at all is mind boggling, the only thing I can think of is that Anet was trying to boost sales by catering to the inept moron that needs training wheels to compete demographic.

No but you will know someone is trying to backstab which gives you the hint to press dodge or move so you may waste the thief’s stealth time and stealth attack. So yes it is a counter, it just requires a little work.

Everyone who complains about thieves only looks at what they have and NEVER look at what they give up for it in exchange.

High burst for below average sustain.

Stealth, blinds, teleports and evades for mediocre armor, healing and HP; pidgeonholed condition removal; very little regen, reflection and stability; and no protection, invulnerability, damage reduction, and aegis.

Great utility traits for kittenty utilities that require all associated traits for the utility to be viable.

Skill system that allows for skill chaining at the cost of having 1 attack out of an entire weapon set that is neither weak nor costly.

Having the most powerful single-hit attack in the game for said attack requiring plenty of setup to be the most powerful.

High-utility attacks for few damaging attacks.

All signets are instant cast for said signets sucking without traits or when not in the proper circumstances.

Those are a few I can pull off the top of my head.

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

Ryan.8367:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Imagi.4561:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Stealth is not the problem here. Stealth is fine, only problem is the fact you can spam it using D/P. You won’t see people crying over D/D, that’s because for D/D you need a target.

Beside, this is the only kittening game that doesn’t have a skill that are able to detect stealth, it is just bullkitten. Anet need to make a stealth detector skill, preferably for rangers.

You mean like the “Sic ’Em” change that they’re talking about?

What does it do? If it does a wide 1200 range aoe that reveal stealth, then it’ll be good. If not, it’ll be useless.

And you know very well it will never be a 1,200 range aoe , that would send thieves straight to the forums telling anet how they’re going to quit/reroll another class like when reveal was set to 4s in WvW. It’ll be a strict single target based utility and I’m pretty sure the pet would need to actually hit the player within a 10s timeframe (sic em lasts for 10 seconds) for it to activate.

Relying on pet? Not gonna work imo, but we’ll see how it goes.

Imagi.4561:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Stealth is not the problem here. Stealth is fine, only problem is the fact you can spam it using D/P. You won’t see people crying over D/D, that’s because for D/D you need a target.

Beside, this is the only kittening game that doesn’t have a skill that are able to detect stealth, it is just bullkitten. Anet need to make a stealth detector skill, preferably for rangers.

You mean like the “Sic ’Em” change that they’re talking about?

And all the frontal tracking channeled skills. Oh, I also forgot all the ones that track without having to acquire the target before they go into stealth. Plus the fact that thieves are still 100% vulnerable while in stealth…

…and blinds, dodges, evades, invuls

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

You want to nerf stealth? Sure… just compensate with more base HP/armor, and throw some protection and aegis in there for the trouble.

Ryan.8367:

‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’.

this is what the community wants !

Ryan.8367:

Zacchary.6183:

Sweetbread.2679:

lol how is block a counter to stealth? even if you get blocked, evaded, or just flat out miss you won’t lose stealth and can instantly spam the attack again thanks to the wonderfully thought out stealth and inititative systems. The fact thieves exist at all is mind boggling, the only thing I can think of is that Anet was trying to boost sales by catering to the inept moron that needs training wheels to compete demographic.

No but you will know someone is trying to backstab which gives you the hint to press dodge or move so you may waste the thief’s stealth time and stealth attack. So yes it is a counter, it just requires a little work.

I laughed at this

The truth is, every other class has a penalty for getting an attack on a target who’s blocking the attack. A full cooldown. Thieves get no penalty from backstabbing a blocked target from stealth. Also, seeing block doesn’t necessarily mean you know where the thief is, and if popping an evade sometimes isn’t the right thing to do. Remember, thief wants you to blow your evades so he can land attacks on you easily. It’s called baiting the dodge and it’s a common thief tactic. Have you fought many thieves on other classes yourself? Seems like you would know this if you have.

Edit: Then again, backstab is considered an auto attack, and if any other class attacks a target blocking with their own auto attack, they essentially receive no penalty either but they’re visible to the person. So this may be intended , but it just seems to give thief an insane advantage to setup a 2nd backstab since he can easily drop aegis or wait for the block to end without penalty.

TBH I’d rather have thieves revealed on a Blocked, Invulnerable or Evaded backstab, it’d make things a whole lot more fun and fair.

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

No, they don’t main other classes, but they play and enjoy other classes and learn them. I think that’s the point I was making. The thief class has a ceiling that, if you understand every aspect of the other class you can dominate with it in just about every scenario, not EVERY class is like that yet all I see in the forums is everybody crying about what they DON’T have. Thief is very good in 1o1’s right now when played right and a firm understanding of the other class. I wish every class was able to have this kind of ceiling but they don’t. I said thief was fine, so not sure where you’re getting ‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’. Kind of confused overall by your post in general really.

I’m getting at tour other suggestions really about how chill should affect thieves and how thier attacks should be limited in cases. Our skills already recharge in series rather than in parallel. Adding a component that would further slow this down would be crippling for the thief. What I was driving at is that you suggested changes based on who you play with.

Kaizer.7135:

Ryan.8367:

Zacchary.6183:

Sweetbread.2679:

lol how is block a counter to stealth? even if you get blocked, evaded, or just flat out miss you won’t lose stealth and can instantly spam the attack again thanks to the wonderfully thought out stealth and inititative systems. The fact thieves exist at all is mind boggling, the only thing I can think of is that Anet was trying to boost sales by catering to the inept moron that needs training wheels to compete demographic.

No but you will know someone is trying to backstab which gives you the hint to press dodge or move so you may waste the thief’s stealth time and stealth attack. So yes it is a counter, it just requires a little work.

I laughed at this

The truth is, every other class has a penalty for getting an attack on a target who’s blocking the attack. A full cooldown. Thieves get no penalty from backstabbing a blocked target from stealth. Also, seeing block doesn’t necessarily mean you know where the thief is, and if popping an evade sometimes isn’t the right thing to do. Remember, thief wants you to blow your evades so he can land attacks on you easily. It’s called baiting the dodge and it’s a common thief tactic. Have you fought many thieves on other classes yourself? Seems like you would know this if you have.

Edit: Then again, backstab is considered an auto attack, and if any other class attacks a target blocking with their own auto attack, they essentially receive no penalty either but they’re visible to the person. So this may be intended , but it just seems to give thief an insane advantage to setup a 2nd backstab since he can easily drop aegis or wait for the block to end without penalty.

TBH I’d rather have thieves revealed on a Blocked, Invulnerable or Evaded backstab, it’d make things a whole lot more fun and fair.

Agreed. TBH, stealth is just laughably easy in this game. we need a challenge.

The counter to stealth is the revealed debuff, not blocking or blind fields or any other equally shortsighted nonsense. Revealed is the counter to stealth; Stealth makes you invisible Revealed forces you to be visible. Problem with that is the counter to stealth is not based on intelligent counter strategy of the enemy player but rather functions like a cool down timer to stealth…that’s kitten ing stupid.

Revealed needs to be removed from automatically being applied when stealth ends. It should only be caused by specific class skills (I.E. “On My Mark” Warrior skill, “Sic Em” Ranger skill which is already getting that buff, Utility Goggles Engineer skill, etc.) and also occur when a character in stealth gets hard CC’d (fear, daze, stun, knock down, knock back, pull, etc.) and be removed by all stun break skills in like fashion to the stun effect itself.

As for the infantile stealth spamming for Thieves in specific a few fixes are in order:

Heartseeker now a three skill chain. 1 ) Heartseeker unchanged, 2 ) Freeze the Lifeblood, melee 5 second chill, 3 ) Toxic Shock, melee deals 5% more damage per condition on target.

Black Powder smoke field removed. Skill now drops a Dark Field that still causes bind. P/P unload specs will enjoy the extra life steal damage.

Dual Wielding Mechanic never use that #3 skill you only get when you don’t have an offhand skill? Thieves with no offhand store stolen skills in the #4 and #5 slots and have a 10% shorter CD on steal. A optimal way to play a Slight of Hand spec.

That is all.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

instead of thinking “OMG i can’t beat this” , relax.

guess what the ultimate counter to stealth is?

block. every profession has it. even better ones are block +counterattack.

also anticipation is a big factor. I’m sorry guys but you can’t just blow all your skills at once on a thief like you can with other professions.

In other word,

you can Block stealth

Really??

I should try it again.

Obscure One.4357:

The counter to stealth is the revealed debuff, not blocking or blind fields or any other equally shortsighted nonsense. Revealed is the counter to stealth; Stealth makes you invisible Revealed forces you to be visible. Problem with that is the counter to stealth is not based on intelligent counter strategy of the enemy player but rather functions like a cool down timer to stealth…that’s kitten ing stupid.

Revealed needs to be removed from automatically being applied when stealth ends. It should only be caused by specific class skills (I.E. “On My Mark” Warrior skill, “Sic Em” Ranger skill which is already getting that buff, Utility Goggles Engineer skill, etc.) and also occur when a character in stealth gets hard CC’d (fear, daze, stun, knock down, knock back, pull, etc.) and be removed by all stun break skills in like fashion to the stun effect itself.

As for the infantile stealth spamming for Thieves in specific a few fixes are in order:

Heartseeker now a three skill chain. 1 ) Heartseeker unchanged, 2 ) Freeze the Lifeblood, melee 5 second chill, 3 ) Toxic Shock, melee deals 5% more damage per condition on target.

Black Powder smoke field removed. Skill now drops a Dark Field that still causes bind. P/P unload specs will enjoy the extra life steal damage.

Dual Wielding Mechanic never use that #3 skill you only get when you don’t have an offhand skill? Thieves with no offhand store stolen skills in the #4 and #5 slots and have a 10% shorter CD on steal. A optimal way to play a Slight of Hand spec.

That is all.

The heartseeker affects thief mobility in a negative way which i think at this point in time is a bad thing. For being the most mobile class there are still a number of specs that can keep up with and out do us.

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

No, they don’t main other classes, but they play and enjoy other classes and learn them. I think that’s the point I was making. The thief class has a ceiling that, if you understand every aspect of the other class you can dominate with it in just about every scenario, not EVERY class is like that yet all I see in the forums is everybody crying about what they DON’T have. Thief is very good in 1o1’s right now when played right and a firm understanding of the other class. I wish every class was able to have this kind of ceiling but they don’t. I said thief was fine, so not sure where you’re getting ‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’. Kind of confused overall by your post in general really.

I’m getting at tour other suggestions really about how chill should affect thieves and how thier attacks should be limited in cases. Our skills already recharge in series rather than in parallel. Adding a component that would further slow this down would be crippling for the thief. What I was driving at is that you suggested changes based on who you play with.

“attacks should be limited in cases. "

CND’ing a pet you know can’t dodge isn’t a non-limitation of attack, it’s thieves abusing a broken pet AI system put in place by anet. In reality, anet is to blame on this one, it just so happens to make it easier for thieves. Like I said before, I shouldn’t be penalized in a fight if I know and can dodge the CND attack consistently , I’ve practice alot to learn how to dodge it , so when I see them spam it on my pet that they KNOW can’t dodge it , it ticks me off a little bit. I get penalized for knowing thief skills in this regard. I’m with you on chill , it would end up being pretty big nerf to thieves if some form of slowing of initiative regen.

Fair enough. I would rather see pets dodge at least as well as the bandits in queensdale or the practice bots in PvP than be given yet another boost to health.

Edit: although I would like to note I usually use CnD on the ranger itself for the damage to them. If they are good at dodging I hit them with a IS first.

Ryan.8367:

DanH.5879:

Ryan.8367:

‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’.

this is what the community wants !

Are you blind or did you just quote that one section of my entire sentence to troll?

’ so not sure where you’re getting ‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’.’

I’m with DanH on this one. Congratulations, DanH…

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

No, they don’t main other classes, but they play and enjoy other classes and learn them. I think that’s the point I was making. The thief class has a ceiling that, if you understand every aspect of the other class you can dominate with it in just about every scenario, not EVERY class is like that yet all I see in the forums is everybody crying about what they DON’T have. Thief is very good in 1o1’s right now when played right and a firm understanding of the other class. I wish every class was able to have this kind of ceiling but they don’t. I said thief was fine, so not sure where you’re getting ‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’. Kind of confused overall by your post in general really.

I’m getting at tour other suggestions really about how chill should affect thieves and how thier attacks should be limited in cases. Our skills already recharge in series rather than in parallel. Adding a component that would further slow this down would be crippling for the thief. What I was driving at is that you suggested changes based on who you play with.

“attacks should be limited in cases. "

CND’ing a pet you know can’t dodge isn’t a non-limitation of attack, it’s thieves abusing a broken pet AI system put in place by anet. In reality, anet is to blame on this one, it just so happens to make it easier for thieves. Like I said before, I shouldn’t be penalized in a fight if I know and can dodge the CND attack consistently , I’ve practice alot to learn how to dodge it , so when I see them spam it on my pet that they KNOW can’t dodge it , it ticks me off a little bit. I get penalized for knowing thief skills in this regard. I’m with you on chill , it would end up being pretty big nerf to thieves if some form of slowing of initiative regen.

I like how whenever thieves use stealth, they are somehow abusing something. Using cloak and dagger on doors is also ‘abusing’ something? What about random mobs in wvw?

If you don’t want a thief to cnd your pet, then put it away. Don’t want to do that? Then deal with it.. There are ups and downs to every class in this game(and any game). Pets in pretty much every game have bad AI by pvp standards, so expecting otherwise in this game is silly. Thieves who cnd pets aren’t abusing anything, they are playing the game.

And as another poster already said, its better to cnd the ranger anyway for the damage and since you will be on them anyway.

Ryan.8367:

You can’t put away your pet… Have you ever played a ranger before?

First off, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a thief stealthing, that IS the focus mechanic of the thief. The issue is, alot of thieves abuse CND’s on the pet because it’s a guaranteed stealth. CND is supposed to be something to work for , if you get it off on the ranger, then the ranger should be punished for it. However, when you’re getting free CND’s off on my pet even when I can dodge it myself? I’m penalized for having lackluster pet AI, but that’s alright – you are right , and it’ll probably never get fixed. There have been huge oversights in the development side of pets in general throughout this game not just involving the ranger pets so it is what it is.

Although, your reply simply shows your lack of the ranger class in general if you think rangers can ‘put their pets away’. That’s some idiotic kitten.

“Thieves who cnd pets aren’t abusing anything, they are playing the game.” – Alright, fair enough. So if they do add a functionality that dodges the pet/pet gets aegis when you dodge and you just wasted initiative on it, are you going to cry to the boards or accept it as the ranger just playing the game as well?

Also, Sic em has just been announced that it is an un-dodgeable shout cast with a 4second reveal attached to it. So when I know you’re going to CND my pet now I’ll just anticipate it since I know when thieves are going to do it usually anyway. So I guess it’s not problem really after all. When I use an un-dodgeable shout on you , you can’t complain though because we’re simply playing the game. Ok?

for someone so great at dodging you think you could anticipate backstabs- i do

Ryan.8367:

Asudementio.8526:

Ryan.8367:

You can’t put away your pet… Have you ever played a ranger before?

First off, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a thief stealthing, that IS the focus mechanic of the thief. The issue is, alot of thieves abuse CND’s on the pet because it’s a guaranteed stealth. CND is supposed to be something to work for , if you get it off on the ranger, then the ranger should be punished for it. However, when you’re getting free CND’s off on my pet even when I can dodge it myself? I’m penalized for having lackluster pet AI, but that’s alright – you are right , and it’ll probably never get fixed. There have been huge oversights in the development side of pets in general throughout this game not just involving the ranger pets so it is what it is.

Although, your reply simply shows your lack of the ranger class in general if you think rangers can ‘put their pets away’. That’s some idiotic kitten.

“Thieves who cnd pets aren’t abusing anything, they are playing the game.” – Alright, fair enough. So if they do add a functionality that dodges the pet/pet gets aegis when you dodge and you just wasted initiative on it, are you going to cry to the boards or accept it as the ranger just playing the game as well?

Also, Sic em has just been announced that it is an un-dodgeable shout cast with a 4second reveal attached to it. So when I know you’re going to CND my pet now I’ll just anticipate it since I know when thieves are going to do it usually anyway. So I guess it’s not problem really after all. When I use an un-dodgeable shout on you , you can’t complain though because we’re simply playing the game. Ok?

for someone so great at dodging you think you could anticipate backstabs- i do

Who said anything about backstabs, what does backstabbing have to do with getting free invis off a pet that can’t dodge? Explain please.

my apologies, my wrongful assumption- most posts such as yours complain about stealth attacks and the pet serving as a more or less infinite generator. Tell me do you think CnD off of an ambient creature is a legitimate move?

Redscope.6215:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

instead of thinking “OMG i can’t beat this” , relax.

guess what the ultimate counter to stealth is?

block. every profession has it. even better ones are block +counterattack.

also anticipation is a big factor. I’m sorry guys but you can’t just blow all your skills at once on a thief like you can with other professions.

Stupidest argument in the world. What if the thief anticipates your anticipated moves and counters them? Should you anticipate that the thief will anticipate you anticipating? You can’t predict, its called luck. Nobody should be so heavily reliant on luck to counter a class.

Also, you don’t come out of stealth when you’re blocked. Try learning how the game works first before complaining about people complaining.

Stealth has no counter-play. “Sick ’em” will be the first of many anti-stealth skills for players. I’ve already told people that’s what they were going with when they put it on the arrow carts. The arrow cart was a test platform to see if it heavily disabled the thief from playing. It didn’t. Anti-stealth counter-play is coming…and its about friggin time.

The OP hasn’t really done a good job of explaining, Block is only one of the many ways that you can already counter stealth. Despite what you may think, Stealth already has counterplay, if it didn’t then people like myself wouldn’t be able to counter it so easily.

I honestly can’t be bothered listing the existing counters, but if you are open to it, then I will. I can already tell that you’d completely ignore it though.

Incurafy.6329:

Redscope.6215:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

instead of thinking “OMG i can’t beat this” , relax.

guess what the ultimate counter to stealth is?

block. every profession has it. even better ones are block +counterattack.

also anticipation is a big factor. I’m sorry guys but you can’t just blow all your skills at once on a thief like you can with other professions.

Stupidest argument in the world. What if the thief anticipates your anticipated moves and counters them? Should you anticipate that the thief will anticipate you anticipating? You can’t predict, its called luck. Nobody should be so heavily reliant on luck to counter a class.

Also, you don’t come out of stealth when you’re blocked. Try learning how the game works first before complaining about people complaining.

Stealth has no counter-play. “Sick ’em” will be the first of many anti-stealth skills for players. I’ve already told people that’s what they were going with when they put it on the arrow carts. The arrow cart was a test platform to see if it heavily disabled the thief from playing. It didn’t. Anti-stealth counter-play is coming…and its about friggin time.

The OP hasn’t really done a good job of explaining, Block is only one of the many ways that you can already counter stealth. Despite what you may think, Stealth already has counterplay, if it didn’t then people like myself wouldn’t be able to counter it so easily.

I honestly can’t be bothered listing the existing counters, but if you are open to it, then I will. I can already tell that you’d completely ignore it though.

No you aren’t understanding; counter play in non-thief terms when referring to thieves means to render a talent tree and a mechanics of almost every build in the class useless.

There is countering with skill and then there is countering with skills. If you really have to use countering skills to counter then apparently you don’t have the skill to counter anything.

Simple as that.

Ryan.8367:

Asudementio.8526:

Ryan.8367:

You can’t put away your pet… Have you ever played a ranger before?

First off, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a thief stealthing, that IS the focus mechanic of the thief. The issue is, alot of thieves abuse CND’s on the pet because it’s a guaranteed stealth. CND is supposed to be something to work for , if you get it off on the ranger, then the ranger should be punished for it. However, when you’re getting free CND’s off on my pet even when I can dodge it myself? I’m penalized for having lackluster pet AI, but that’s alright – you are right , and it’ll probably never get fixed. There have been huge oversights in the development side of pets in general throughout this game not just involving the ranger pets so it is what it is.

Although, your reply simply shows your lack of the ranger class in general if you think rangers can ‘put their pets away’. That’s some idiotic kitten.

“Thieves who cnd pets aren’t abusing anything, they are playing the game.” – Alright, fair enough. So if they do add a functionality that dodges the pet/pet gets aegis when you dodge and you just wasted initiative on it, are you going to cry to the boards or accept it as the ranger just playing the game as well?

Also, Sic em has just been announced that it is an un-dodgeable shout cast with a 4second reveal attached to it. So when I know you’re going to CND my pet now I’ll just anticipate it since I know when thieves are going to do it usually anyway. So I guess it’s not problem really after all. When I use an un-dodgeable shout on you , you can’t complain though because we’re simply playing the game. Ok?

for someone so great at dodging you think you could anticipate backstabs- i do

Who said anything about backstabs, what does backstabbing have to do with getting free invis off a pet that can’t dodge? Explain please.

Your pet is a part of your class. You use it for damage, condition removal, roots, survival cooldowns, among other things. Thieves being able to use it for cloak and dagger is just part of that package, part of playing a pet class. There is no abuse here. When you say thieves are abusing ranger pets you just look like a whiner. Mesmer clones can be used for cnd, so can necro minions, and ambient creatures/doors.

PvE is a separate issue for pets in general for obvious reasons.

A lot of players say rangers are easy kills but I have met rangers on occasion that can survive well and put out great damage, it just depends on the player. I am of the opinion that the ranger class attracts lots of bad players(like the hunter in wow), and that is a big part of why people think rangers are so easy to kill. Between evades, roots, and snares, rangers have the tools to deal with thieves, you just don’t often see a ranger who can utilize them. Spirit rangers are nasty right now, in a better place pvp wise than thieves actually. Next patch, who knows.

I pvp on my necro probably more thank thief, and I have never had an issue with thieves stealthing off my golem. /shrug