Guild Wars 2

give us your thoughts S/D thief players! for me imo i more like the old FS it does evading attack + 2nd attack no steal boon but only cost 4 initiative. or maybe make Larcenous strike ripping 2 boons (not stealing boons) cuz i don’t care about taking/stealing and having boons, all i want is to rip off enemy boons like protection, healing or stability cuz boon dependent classes like bunker guardians or bunker staff eles, and bunker warriors with long stability boon are pain in the @ss in high rank tPvP! they can hold area points for like forever!

I wont say its better, but i really miss just using it to only to evade with its low initiative cost. Still yea i can evade pretty good and now path better to my targets. I just do it less of course. Sure steal One boon.. is okish and the dmg is a welcome, but prefer to be a evasive thief that can just dish out dmg without relying on stealth. I honestly want them to just take boon steal out if they don’t want us to steal them. The so called “Boon Hate” isnt working. I would love more survival that benefits non heavy stealth users. I do agree we need something besides high amounts of dmg to be able to take down bunker classes.

I think stel boon is amazing for thief since its one of the only Stability sources we can have and it can change the course of a fight

I would rather have seen them nerf the damage than the utility. The DPS is on par with the autoattack. It would at least be nice if they reduced the cost of LS since they halved its utility. Even though we retained the damage, boon bunkers have effectively double the time to replace boons now. I thought they changed it to two boons in the first place because bunkers were over the top. We’ll see if we slide back into the meta of half a year ago.

“they are stealing my boons, please nerf” , worked !

Maugetarr.6823:

I would rather have seen them nerf the damage than the utility. The DPS is on par with the autoattack. It would at least be nice if they reduced the cost of LS since they halved its utility. Even though we retained the damage, boon bunkers have effectively double the time to replace boons now. I thought they changed it to two boons in the first place because bunkers were over the top. We’ll see if we slide back into the meta of half a year ago.

Boon bunkers are back to where they were pre FS change – thieves no longer have the tools to strip their important boons because they can generate boons so quickly that you can’t possibly keep up. Bountiful theft can open up a ~5s window, but it’s not a sustainable method of removing boons from a bunker, and a smart bunker will save their best survival tools to close that small window Bountiful theft opened up. Sinking 20 points into trickery is also not an easy feat if you want your spec to have any sort of survivability (or if you’re aiming for survivability, if you want your spec to have the kind of damage that a bunker can’t just ignore)

Anet made the switch to 2 boons to counter boon bunkers. It was working fine, but I guess they decided since people have bigger problems now (Warriors, condi meta, etc), they could just reintroduce boon bunkers into the meta, and we wouldn’t notice.

The only real issue I could see is giving thieves access to the tools to counter boon bunkers effectively allows them to strip boons from other specs much too quickly – if that’s the case, they should have done what they claim to do and “Shaved” LS in a more inventive manner – have LS steal 1 boon, then in addition strip/steal protection/vigor/retal (maybe also regen?) – this way, DPS specs that rely on might, fury and swiftness aren’t getting eaten alive by LS, but boon bunkers cant just throw up tons of short duration boons to completely neuter LS’s ability to counter them.

The fact that they left it at 2 initiative makes me feel like they’re just lazy or inattentive – it’s back to the old FS functionality, with a steal rather than a strip – it shoudn’t be costing 5 total initiative.

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind them trying new things that didn’t work if the update schedule were more accelerated – if we could expect things to change every 2-3 weeks while they fine tuned balance, it wouldn’t be pleasant, but it would be bearable.

Knowing its going to be 1 month (absolute minimum, more likely 3 months) before this issue is addressed is disappointing.

That’s why I wish they had halved the damage instead of the utility. When they originally talked about it in one of the SotG they said F/S +LS had too much on it. Evasion, damage, boonstripping. Well now all it does is give us what we already have naturally: evasion and damage. Even if they reduce the cost of it back down to 4, the speed at which it functions would still be too slow. Anyway, I like your idea of taking a defensive boon and a random one so we could still get through bunkers without stripping people who use them for offense too quickly.

Maugetarr.6823:

That’s why I wish they had halved the damage instead of the utility. When they originally talked about it in one of the SotG they said F/S +LS had too much on it. Evasion, damage, boonstripping. Well now all it does is give us what we already have naturally: evasion and damage. Even if they reduce the cost of it back down to 4, the speed at which it functions would still be too slow. Anyway, I like your idea of taking a defensive boon and a random one so we could still get through bunkers without stripping people who use them for offense too quickly.

Halving the damage would have been a mistake too – FS->LS DPS is on par with AA DPS – AA inflicts cripple and weakness, and costs 0 initiative. Evasion and boon stripping seems fair for an ability that costs 5 initiative, and does damage on par with just standing near your target and pressing 1.

People just don’t like to try. Crippling strike and larcenous strike are the only attacks in PvP that S/D has that do any sort of decent damage, just dodging those will nearly half the damage the set can do to you. While I agree “Just dodge” is usually a poor argument for countering an ability, that’s because there are usually 4 or 5 skills you want to dodge, and you can’t possibly dodge them all – S/D has only 2 skills you need to watch out for, making your choice of what to avoid a very easy one.

They could normalize the damage of FS and LS so that the overall DPS is the same, but each strike does the same damage (to prevent people from pre-loading LS and using Inf strike/steal to guarantee a big hit), but reducing the overall damage doesn’t really make sense.

My point is though that if the devs really felt like it was overwhelming/did too much, a damage nerf would have been the better route because now we have 2 skills that pretty much overlap on just damage. If it had been a damage nerf then we would have had:

AA: Damage
IS: Utility gap closing/creating
FS/LS: Utility evade/boon stealing
DD: (needs to be fixed)
C&D: Damage (depending on pvp/wvw) + Utility Stealth

Basically they could have turned S/D into the close combat version of Shortbow, which is the point I’m getting at. I really don’t think it needed to be changed, but if the devs absolutely had to change something, I think this would have been the better route to go because thieves would have to choose between damage and utility (as the devs thought it was all too much on the same ability). Again, I wish we’d had no buffs or nerfs this patch, just buffs to other classes and let the meta settle.

Maugetarr.6823:

My point is though that if the devs really felt like it was overwhelming/did too much, a damage nerf would have been the better route because now we have 2 skills that pretty much overlap on just damage. If it had been a damage nerf then we would have had:

AA: Damage
IS: Utility gap closing/creating
FS/LS: Utility evade/boon stealing
DD: (needs to be fixed)
C&D: Damage (depending on pvp/wvw) + Utility Stealth

Basically they could have turned S/D into the close combat version of Shortbow, which is the point I’m getting at. I really don’t think it needed to be changed, but if the devs absolutely had to change something, I think this would have been the better route to go because thieves would have to choose between damage and utility (as the devs thought it was all too much on the same ability). Again, I wish we’d had no buffs or nerfs this patch, just buffs to other classes and let the meta settle.

I understand your point, but I’m sick of making concessions. That’s all thief seems to do – accept nerf after nerf after nerf. If their justification really was that FS→LS was overwhelming or did too much, then they need to re-evaluate how they measure these things.

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Maugetarr.6823:

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Again, I do agree with you, but I fear reducing FS→LS damage will make the set 1 note – I should have said this earlier rather than posting another response, but if you half FS→LS damage, S/D will become “Dodge Crippling strike to win” – can you imagine running S/D without LS damage? It would be a joke – you can’t even guarantee a CS with Inf Strike, since its part of the AA chain. Trading FS→LS’s damage for utility will just make us useless in a different fashion.

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Again, I do agree with you, but I fear reducing FS->LS damage will make the set 1 note – I should have said this earlier rather than posting another response, but if you half FS->LS damage, S/D will become “Dodge Crippling strike to win” – can you imagine running S/D without LS damage? It would be a joke – you can’t even guarantee a CS with Inf Strike, since its part of the AA chain. Trading FS->LS’s damage for utility will just make us useless in a different fashion.

Well…let’s hope they change it back, but in all my time on the thief they’ve only reversed 1 change which was reveal….and that was only in wvw/pve. I guess we can’t really come to a conclusion on which way you would rather be nerfed….

Your fingers or your tongue. Which do you prefer?

A man’s gotta have fingers.

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Again, I do agree with you, but I fear reducing FS->LS damage will make the set 1 note – I should have said this earlier rather than posting another response, but if you half FS->LS damage, S/D will become “Dodge Crippling strike to win” – can you imagine running S/D without LS damage? It would be a joke – you can’t even guarantee a CS with Inf Strike, since its part of the AA chain. Trading FS->LS’s damage for utility will just make us useless in a different fashion.

Well…let’s hope they change it back, but in all my time on the thief they’ve only reversed 1 change which was reveal….and that was only in wvw/pve. I guess we can’t really come to a conclusion on which way you would rather be nerfed….

Your fingers or your tongue. Which do you prefer?

A man’s gotta have fingers.

Well, I know from experience that the current single boon steal does nothing, so I’d opt for the damage reduction and stealing 2 boons. From fighting non-boon bunkers though, I feel that the damage reduction would limit our ability to actually drop targets. The devil you know, and all that.

It’s hard to make a decision regarding either nerf because they are both unjustified – 1 has been tested and proven, the other just conjecture, but conjecture from an experienced player.

I vote for old flanking strike.

It allowed you to use the dodge ability in succession if you needed to. With current flanking your a sitting duck if larcenous is next in chain.The pathing was a little difficult and required some practice but I prefer the old way it worked.

The dodge and the attack was one motion. Almost like the warrior final thrust with a dodge built in.

In a word, yes. The old flanking strike is much better than its current form and the 2-boon steal version was even better than that. It’s not viable in its current form.

Why would I ever blow almost half of my initiative pool to remove only 1 boon? (with an unreliable evade)

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Again, I do agree with you, but I fear reducing FS->LS damage will make the set 1 note – I should have said this earlier rather than posting another response, but if you half FS->LS damage, S/D will become “Dodge Crippling strike to win” – can you imagine running S/D without LS damage? It would be a joke – you can’t even guarantee a CS with Inf Strike, since its part of the AA chain. Trading FS->LS’s damage for utility will just make us useless in a different fashion.

Well…let’s hope they change it back, but in all my time on the thief they’ve only reversed 1 change which was reveal….and that was only in wvw/pve. I guess we can’t really come to a conclusion on which way you would rather be nerfed….

Your fingers or your tongue. Which do you prefer?

A man’s gotta have fingers.

Well, I know from experience that the current single boon steal does nothing, so I’d opt for the damage reduction and stealing 2 boons. From fighting non-boon bunkers though, I feel that the damage reduction would limit our ability to actually drop targets. The devil you know, and all that.

It’s hard to make a decision regarding either nerf because they are both unjustified – 1 has been tested and proven, the other just conjecture, but conjecture from an experienced player.

After playing eith it over the weekend, I’m leaning towards going back to D/P. Since LS has become meh in the utility aspect I think D/P has the following advantages over it now.

AA: Normalized damage over the chain. There’s no one big hit they can dodge. Poison will reduce both regen and their heal skill. Furthermore it affects warrior healing signet which couldn’t be stripped. Better endurance regen.

HS:slightly worse gap closer, but doesn’t roll over and has a leap finisher. Much better damage at all levels of opponent’s health.

SS: Not affected by movement impairing conditions. Defacto single ability dodge. Better damage than FS. Doesn’t roll over so it csn be used to chase an enemy who has multiple gap creators

Headshot: Excellent interrupt for when you see the blue glow of an enemy heal. Doesn’t require the positional and conditional parts of the sword stealth attack.

BPS: Longer and more effective against single targets then FS is . Most people still walk into it. You can headshot throught it interrupting. One attack and causing the next to miss. Sets up reliable stealth.

BS: Excellent burst damage

I know you know this stuff, but this is my reasoning for going back to it. Not a single attack on it needs to be fixed (like Dancing Dagger or D/D does) and it has sustained damage on par/greater than S/X while still retaining the burst. If boon stealing/destroying is really needed now, you might as well go sigil of nullification so you won’t have to spend initiative on it.

TL; DR: S/D doesn’t offer any significant utility anymore (imo) to make up for the loss of burst damage that D/P has.

Maugetarr.6823:

TL; DR: S/D doesn’t offer any significant utility anymore (imo) to make up for the loss of burst damage that D/P has.

no worry dude, d/p can also be nerfed because of the perma stealth troll builds

DanH.5879:

Maugetarr.6823:

TL; DR: S/D doesn’t offer any significant utility anymore (imo) to make up for the loss of burst damage that D/P has.

no worry dude, d/p can also be nerfed because of the perma stealth troll builds

Well it has survived this long, but even so it can be played similarly to S/P without the self root. I’m honestly hoping they’re done nerfing thieves but….

Thief viable? Not on my watch. – ANet

DanH.5879:

“they are stealing my boons, please nerf” , worked !

Not like it isn’t one of the most telegraphed, slow, and obvious attacks in the game. Hm, I wonder what that thief is going to use after flanking strike.. HMMMM…!!!

I would have agree’d with an initiative increase to reduce spam but nothing more.