Guild Wars 2

Okay, just fyi this is almost entirely coming from a Mesmer PoV. So there might be some bias^^

But it bothered me for a while now that Thief Steal isn’t telegraphed in any way as in: one could see it coming. Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”. Steal, although being very owerful, is not.

So how would it be for thieves, if steal would be somehow telegraphed. Something like a 1/4 second cast time, where some kind of animation is happening, that allows me to see the steal coming (unless happening from stealth of course^^). Would that destroy how thieves work? I know there is this CnD into steal combo, that might be not possible any more with this suggestion. So I’d like the thieves’ opinion on this matter. And please keep it civil.

Gonna quote myself from another thread in the mesmer forum…

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

data.4093:

I find it incredible that ecto isn’t nerfed, a 50% uptime of almost all boons. It’s interesting that the rune version of this skill was nerfed into the ground a long time ago- rune of lyssa. It removed all conditions and granted all boons for 5(not 10!) seconds but this was apparently too strong. Now it removes 5 conditions and grants boons based on how many conditions you had. This was a meta rune at the time but after the change, mesmers, warriors, thieves and everyone else stopped running it. The condition removal part stayed essentially the same but that wasn’t why it became meta and Anet knew it- it was the boons. How can Anet claim that 5 seconds of boons every 45 sec is OP but 10 seconds of boons every 20 seconds is balanced?

how many times does it have to be reapeated sigh

it was already said by the developers that every single ability the thief can steal will be reworked…

The stolen abilities, yes. But steal mechanics themselves? Needs addressing.

And how should it be reworked then? Give it a cast time? You know this would change gameplay fundamentally right? Thief is supposed to combo his abilities together with his shadowsteps …

HS -> Steal
BP -> Steal
CnD -> Steal
LS -> Steal
CB -> Steal
Stabsteals

… just to name a few would all not work anymore. It is safe to assume that steal will never get a cast time unless the class mechanic is completely reworked.

What i could see them doing is to give it an icon on the thieves buff bar when steal is off-cd to give it more counterplay like mesmer mantras have.

plenty of mes skills are actually not telegraphed…. or can be cast in stealth w/o being revealed…

i like the idea of having an icon for steal being off cd so that you can see it – but then for example why not also show us the life force necros have? and i doubt that will ever happen

animation + cast time? no
that would destroy a lot of combos we currently have

also you can predict steals
look at your opponent’s animation… casting c&d while being out of range? dodge it => you will both dodge steal/inf.signet and c&d (likely also basilisk venom) making the thief waste a lot of initiative and their steal
that is how i (S/D thief) beat burst D/D thieves as they heavily rely on c&d but are kittened if they miss it – if they hit it full dmg thieves burst me down 100-0 with c&d + stab

Please tell me how you can see 1/4 second cast time coming.
1/4 second cast times are here only to prevent combos. They aren’t meant to be ,,seen", unless you are a robot. You can still, however, predict them, but you can predict even instant casts.

Dagins.5163:

Please tell me how you can see 1/4 second cast time coming.
1/4 second cast times are here only to prevent combos. They aren’t meant to be ,,seen", unless you are a robot. You can still, however, predict them, but you can predict even instant casts.

Tell that to any s/f elementalist who uses LF while casting phoenix. 1/4s is an eternity.

Tarkan.5609:

i like the idea of having an icon for steal being off cd so that you can see it – but then for example why not also show us the life force necros have? and i doubt that will ever happen

animation + cast time? no
that would destroy a lot of combos we currently have

also you can predict steals
look at your opponent’s animation… casting c&d while being out of range? dodge it => you will both dodge steal/inf.signet and c&d (likely also basilisk venom) making the thief waste a lot of initiative and their steal
that is how i (S/D thief) beat burst D/D thieves as they heavily rely on c&d but are kittened if they miss it – if they hit it full dmg thieves burst me down 100-0 with c&d + stab

This is all very good, but it doesn’t work against good d/p thieves and their BS->Steal combo from stealth.

Sorry OP, but Steal being instacast is too fundamental for the thief gameplay, and I don’t think it will ever change. Try to predict it (a lot of d/p thieves do 5->2->F1), but if the thief is good, the only thing you can do is trying to interrupt the 5->2 combo and hide behind clones to prevent the shadow shots and other head shots.

TyPin.9860:

Okay, just fyi this is almost entirely coming from a Mesmer PoV. So there might be some bias^^

But it bothered me for a while now that Thief Steal isn’t telegraphed in any way as in: one could see it coming. Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”. Steal, although being very owerful, is not.

So how would it be for thieves, if steal would be somehow telegraphed. Something like a 1/4 second cast time, where some kind of animation is happening, that allows me to see the steal coming (unless happening from stealth of course^^). Would that destroy how thieves work? I know there is this CnD into steal combo, that might be not possible any more with this suggestion. So I’d like the thieves’ opinion on this matter. And please keep it civil.

Mesmers F1-4 skills are not telegraphed on activation. When they are forced to run to you yes, but the actual skill is not.

Prestige, Powerlock, Decoy, Swap, etc. are all insta skills that do wonders as well.

In short No on your suggestion

Sorel.4870:

Tarkan.5609:

snip

This is all very good, but it doesn’t work against good d/p thieves and their BS->Steal combo from stealth.

you generally can’t see anything [that is melee at least] coming from stealth… thats the whole point of it?

i mean i can see gs#2 of a mesmer while he is in stealth but i can also see sb#1 or pistol#1 on thief in stealth
but these are ranged attacks

the whole point of mug before a backstab is to deal more dmg via mug (which cant even critically hit so thats not a problem) and mainly to get the fury (+ maybe the useful interrupt) if you have 6 in trickery

i cant see a mesmer blinking in stealth… and thats good like that isnt it?

Tarkan.5609:

Sorel.4870:

Tarkan.5609:

snip

This is all very good, but it doesn’t work against good d/p thieves and their BS->Steal combo from stealth.

you generally can’t see anything [that is melee at least] coming from stealth… thats the whole point of it?

i mean i can see gs#2 of a mesmer while he is in stealth but i can also see sb#1 or pistol#1 on thief in stealth
but these are ranged attacks

the whole point of mug before a backstab is to deal more dmg via mug (which cant even critically hit so thats not a problem) and mainly to get the fury (+ maybe the useful interrupt) if you have 6 in trickery

i cant see a mesmer blinking in stealth… and thats good like that isnt it?

I am not saying it’s bad, I do it all the time (I main thief and mesmer). It’s just that from a pvp perspective, you don’t see a lot of CnD these days, probably because it is relatively easy to avoid (unless you are a mesmer or a ranger). So if OP complains about thieves being a pain in the kitten (and from a mesmer PoV, they really are), you can’t just tell them to watch a melee skill casted at range, because d/p thieves don’t do that.

Sorel.4870:

Tarkan.5609:

Sorel.4870:

Tarkan.5609:

snip

snip

snip.

you talked about backstab+steal combo from stealth and no one should be able to se that as its stealth. stealth: opponents dont see you or your animations

d/p thieves will often black powder → heart seeker → steal → backstab
interrupt their heartseeker / dodge when they heart seeker and they didnt use their steal yet and you just dodged one of their main skills (thieves use*8* trait points to get a strong steal… its a not-dodge-win or a dodge-lose especially in eg thief/thief duels)
the problem vs mesmer is not the strong steal (which we traited for and took 300 condition damage instead of precision… that always annoys/hurts me a lot) but more the really strong stolen skill which should (and in HoT will) be reworked

Yeah, I was guessing that wouldn’t work^^ However a 1/4s cast time can actually mean something and would it even make possible to not only dodge but also interrupt steal. But yeah, simply for destroying all the combos Sizzle Hint listed this would be a huge deal and maybe too big of an actual nerf.

Tarkan.5609:

d/p thieves will often black powder -> heart seeker -> steal -> backstab

I never use that combo against shatter mesmers, because when I do play shatter mesmer, I find it so easy to avoid. Especially since it’s so easy to use Steal to interrupt something (a heal or a phantasm), you don’t benefit a lot from doing that predictable combo.

Just thinking out loud here: how would it be for mesmers if their shatter skills were given a 1/4 second casting time?

Now I don’t main mesmer, but I assume it would be a pretty big deal. Not necessarily because of the fact that it’s suddenly telegraphed but simply because it would destroy a lot of existing combos. The same would go for thief with regards to steal.

Regardless, it would probably be smart to wait and see how the trait changes and the reworking of stolen skills will affect the game before making suggestions like these.

From a WvW perspective the matchup is even flipped on its head in terms of class advantage/disadvantage. I’m gonna have to say no on the principle it wouldn’t really do much in sPvP since D/P doesn’t really get affected by it a lot (Shadow Shot→Stab/IS→Stab/→Shadowstep→Stab. D/D gets hit like a truck with this, which is kind of unnecessary as you’re probably aware.

So just for the sake of it not really solving much and hurting the class I’d have to vote against this.

I see it more like giving mantras a 1/4s cast time in terms of how important the instant-cast/combo aspect of them is to the profession, except the mesmer doesn’t have mantras as their class mechanic as well.

Mesmer suggesting cast on insta skill. Good one.

Well, the lil mesmer probably wants to make us not counter them. I personally stealth before steal so it doesn’t matter. I stealth, steal, use stolen item, run. Not sure if most people do this.

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

Kills the point of a Teleport so no. You’re wrong and bias.

Mesmer, Guard, Necro, Ele and anyone else’s are instant as well.

People need to understand that even if you can’t see non-telegraphed skills you can still predict behaviors.

90% of D/D thieves are going to use IF or Steal if you see then activating C&D at range. And 90% of D/P thieves are going to use steal in the middle of a BP + HS combo.

Seriously, stop nitpicking about every skill in the game and learn why are they using that kitten skill at that moment. That’s all you need to learn to deal with 90% of the playerbase.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

I will half agree there.

Guardian uses Whirling Wrath from 900m away.
You totally don’t expect him warp in your face (laughs).

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

Yamsandjams.3267:

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

how the kitten are you getting dazed when you dodge the steal?
thats not true, same as thief is not getting vigor and stolen boons from a dodged steal

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

Marked the important detail there for you to better see

Tarkan.5609:

Yamsandjams.3267:

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

how the kitten are you getting dazed when you dodge the steal?
thats not true, same as thief is not getting vigor and stolen boons from a dodged steal

It not only that. Lets say you play a normal panic-strike build.
When you steal successful:
- damage = 1300 and heal = 2000
- rip 2 boons and gain vigor
- inflict poison
- dazes the target (confusion on other builds)
- gain fury, might, and swiftness
- gives 2 initiative
- chance to recharge all skills of one type (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, or deceptions)

When you fail:
gain fury,might and swiftness

Yeah, we get all that stuff for free…
Btw we have to invest in 2 full traitlines for that.

“otherwise prevent the steal”
Aegis will not work cause it gets stolen first. other blocks like shelter will work. Same as blind.

Tarkan.5609:

Yamsandjams.3267:

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

how the kitten are you getting dazed when you dodge the steal?
thats not true, same as thief is not getting vigor and stolen boons from a dodged steal

You can’t dodge/evade conditions, however, you can deny the Thief a stolen item if you timed your dodge/evade.

TyPin.9860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

Marked the important detail there for you to better see

My point is; why start with Thieves if you can start with Guardians and Elementalist?

Their shadow step deals damage without the need to trait…Thieves requires to take Mug to deal damage — not to mention, their shadowstep damage can crit while Mug cannot.

You said “almost” but you never mention which shadowstep is being telegraph if not all of them.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Tarkan.5609:

Yamsandjams.3267:

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

how the kitten are you getting dazed when you dodge the steal?
thats not true, same as thief is not getting vigor and stolen boons from a dodged steal

You can’t dodge/evade conditions, however, you can deny the Thief a stolen item if you timed your dodge/evade.

and deny him a lot more, basically anything but fury/might/swiftness (see the post above)
tbh i dont get your response, if my opponents dodge my steal they neither get the poison nor the daze or whatever, so you can actually evade that condi or what did you mean

Tarkan.5609:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Tarkan.5609:

Yamsandjams.3267:

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

how the kitten are you getting dazed when you dodge the steal?
thats not true, same as thief is not getting vigor and stolen boons from a dodged steal

You can’t dodge/evade conditions, however, you can deny the Thief a stolen item if you timed your dodge/evade.

and deny him a lot more, basically anything but fury/might/swiftness (see the post above)
tbh i dont get your response, if my opponents dodge my steal they neither get the poison nor the daze or whatever, so you can actually evade that condi or what did you mean

Players dodging/evading my pistol auto attack still gets bleeding.

Tarkan.5609:

Yamsandjams.3267:

While I can’t agree with making steal telegraphed, it does annoy me that “on steal” things, such as the confusion and daze, still apply even if you manage to dodge or otherwise prevent being hit by the steal. I’ve never understood why they just get that stuff for free, considering the ability is 900 range and instantly cast.

how the kitten are you getting dazed when you dodge the steal?
thats not true, same as thief is not getting vigor and stolen boons from a dodged steal

Ok I will have to pay attention to this again, because I could have sworn it was just doing that stuff anyways. Maybe it’s just the lag causing the “hit during dodge” effect or something similar.

Or maybe it had something to do with the pre-no valid path changes where you could steal to a target that you couldn’t actually blink to.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

Marked the important detail there for you to better see

My point is; why start with Thieves if you can start with Guardians and Elementalist?

Their shadow step deals damage without the need to trait…Thieves requires to take Mug to deal damage — not to mention, their shadowstep damage can crit while Mug cannot.

You said “almost” but you never mention which shadowstep is being telegraph if not all of them.

First, I understand the problems with my suggestion and that it would destroy many combos. So I am not arguing in favor of it now. However, just mentioning only the Thief mechanic, does it inherently mean I find other class mechanic unproblematic? No it doesn’t. It only means I focused for this thread, in this forum on the thief mechanic. The assumption, I would need to mention all issues I have, when just focusing on one issue, is ridiculous. I mentioned in a side node though that the issue was not exclusive for Thieves. However, our both arguments are different in nature too. You focus seemingly on all damaging teleports, while I focus on non telegraphed class mechanics.

Also, I have rarely issues with untraited steal. But traited steal is definitely stronger than any other teleport you find in the game. And it should, it is the class mechanic after all. Nonetheless is the relation between strengths and means of counter play in the case of traited thief steal way way in favor of strength, more than any other class mechanic, I might add. Well this unique ratio in favor of strengths is also the case when comparing steal with any other teleport. However, comparing a class mechanic to a mere utility skill might undervalue the class mechanic. And this is where I was getting at. I did not compare it to other teleports, because steal should be stronger than them, especially if you focus your build around that said class mechanic.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

My point is; why start with Thieves if you can start with Guardians and Elementalist?

Their shadow step deals damage without the need to trait…Thieves requires to take Mug to deal damage — not to mention, their shadowstep damage can crit while Mug cannot.

You said “almost” but you never mention which shadowstep is being telegraph if not all of them.

Because “almost” no one likes thieves.

TyPin.9860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

Marked the important detail there for you to better see

My point is; why start with Thieves if you can start with Guardians and Elementalist?

Their shadow step deals damage without the need to trait…Thieves requires to take Mug to deal damage — not to mention, their shadowstep damage can crit while Mug cannot.

You said “almost” but you never mention which shadowstep is being telegraph if not all of them.

First, I understand the problems with my suggestion and that it would destroy many combos. So I am not arguing in favor of it now.

Ok.

However, just mentioning only the Thief mechanic, does it inherently mean I find other class mechanic unproblematic? No it doesn’t. It only means I focused for this thread, in this forum on the thief mechanic. The assumption, I would need to mention all issues I have, when just focusing on one issue, is ridiculous. I mentioned in a side node though that the issue was not exclusive for Thieves. However, our both arguments are different in nature too. You focus seemingly on all damaging teleports, while I focus on non telegraphed class mechanics.

The feature I’m trying to point out is that, the teleport mechanic is not exclusive to Thief. Therefore, if you change steal to be telegraphed, it would have to also change other non-Thief skill to be telegraphed.

The fact that other non-Thief teleport is not a problem, despite on what you think about it, is telling that this suggestion will not go anywhere.

The point I was trying to make is, if you can convince the other profession to telegraph their teleport, then we can reach a consensus that non-telegraph teleport needs to be changed. Otherwise, it’s is a dead end.

Also, I have rarely issues with untraited steal. But traited steal is definitely stronger than any other teleport you find in the game. And it should, it is the class mechanic after all. Nonetheless is the relation between strengths and means of counter play in the case of traited thief steal way way in favor of strength, more than any other class mechanic, I might add. Well this unique ratio in favor of strengths is also the case when comparing steal with any other teleport. However, comparing a class mechanic to a mere utility skill might undervalue the class mechanic. And this is where I was getting at. I did not compare it to other teleports, because steal should be stronger than them, especially if you focus your build around that said class mechanic.

If you believe that Steal needs to be stronger than non-Thief utility skills, then why do you advocate for Steal to get a crippling nerf?

Also it seems that your problem lies on the trait itself and not on Steal, so your suggestion to balance Steal is misplaced when you should be suggesting to balance the traits that triggers on Steal instead.

@Sir Vincent III:
As I said, I am not any longer advocating my initial suggestion. You needn’t come back to it again. The issue is basically that steal (especially when heavily traited) has too many advantages and too less counter play. The problem doesn’t lie in steal being a non telegraphed teleport. The telegraph idea was just there to allow more counter play.

The problem may indeed lay in the traits that modify steal. Compared to other class mechanics heavily traited steal offers too many benefits for too less counter play imho.

TyPin.9860:

@Sir Vincent III:
As I said, I am not any longer advocating my initial suggestion. You needn’t come back to it again.

Then don’t bring it up? I simply responded to what you’ve posted.

The issue is basically that steal (especially when heavily traited) has too many advantages and too less counter play. The problem doesn’t lie in steal being a non telegraphed teleport. The telegraph idea was just there to allow more counter play.

If you’re not advocating this anymore, then what’s your other idea as a counter play?

The problem may indeed lay in the traits that modify steal. Compared to other class mechanics heavily traited steal offers too many benefits for too less counter play imho.

Because the devs are lazy.

Thieves should have had F1-F4 skills, each as Steal but with different effects. For example, F1 = Steal + Thrill, F2 = Steal + Bounty, F3 = Steal + Mug, F4 = Steal + Daze — or whatever.

This way all these triggers will not happen at the same time using a single Skill.

So yes, let’s stay away from trying to balance Steal instead focus on the traits.

TyPin.9860:

@Sir Vincent III:
As I said, I am not any longer advocating my initial suggestion. You needn’t come back to it again. The issue is basically that steal (especially when heavily traited) has too many advantages and too less counter play. The problem doesn’t lie in steal being a non telegraphed teleport. The telegraph idea was just there to allow more counter play.

The problem may indeed lay in the traits that modify steal. Compared to other class mechanics heavily traited steal offers too many benefits for too less counter play imho.

The thing is most other class mechanics do not have counterplay either. Elementalist Attunement swap, Necromancer entering DS, Guardian activating Virtues etc

Heavily traited Guardian virtues can do a LOT, Elementalists can swap attunements faster (specced in Arcana) meaning they have access to all their skills faster etc. Although Warrior burst skills aren’t unblockable, traited for Adrenaline can do a lot of things to

If you compare Steal with the other Profession mechanics, Steal isn’t so much more powerful if full traited.

@Sir Vincent III:
Reread your previous post please. You constantly refer back to my initial suggestion after you okayed my message of not advocating this change any more. This is why I reminded you of it again.

However, I had no other suggestion for a balance change yet.

@maddoctor:
Everything you listed is nothing in the lines of teleport+dmg+poison+weakness+gaining boons+dace+boon steal (including prioritized stability, which is stolen before daze effect, if I am not mistaken)+random skill type recharge+immobilize+gaining consume plasma (for instance when stealing from Mesmers) in one. There are more traits, but all effects listed above can be found in a single build.

Problem with talking about steal is also that it is (partly) an all or nothing skill. Meaning if you missed it, you’d need to recharge the whole thing with only triggering some of the effects... but well even then it allows you to get a couple of boons and a random skill type recharge. And it’s on a low enough cool down, that you can actually soon try again...

As I have said before, while the issues of steal are not found in steal alone, it has disproportional more benefits than there are ways to play against it.

TyPin.9860:

@Sir Vincent III:
The problem may indeed lay in the traits that modify steal. Compared to other class mechanics heavily traited steal offers too many benefits for too less counter play imho.

the thing is – in order to get a fully buffed steal we need to spend 8, for improvisation even 10 trait points
thats 300 useless condi dmg and 8/10 trait points less to spend somewhere else

for 8/10 trait points only put into steal (even 2 minors of them are steal only minors) you would kinda expect/want it to be strong right?
the amount of trait points make trickery thieves extremely relying on hitting their steal

Tarkan.5609:

the thing is – in order to get a fully buffed steal we need to spend 8, for improvisation even 10 trait points
thats 300 useless condi dmg and 8/10 trait points less to spend somewhere else

for 8/10 trait points only put into steal (even 2 minors of them are steal only minors) you would kinda expect/want it to be strong right?
the amount of trait points make trickery thieves extremely relying on hitting their steal

But also 300 usefull power and condi duration for a panic strike thieve. However, such arguments won’t be of any importance any more in the future. Of course we can’t really know, how the balance will or will not shift with the whole new balance changes.

Already the combo of boon steal, that prioritizes stability and daze is in itself a huge deal. Alone this, combined with the CD reduction makes steal hugely potent in a unique way and imho is kinda out of control. On the other hand, the synergy those traits provide seems so elegant, that maybe it is the wrong approach to look at thief traits, but at the traits of the other professions… well, we will see how things turn out with the balance patch.

TyPin.9860:

Tarkan.5609:

the thing is – in order to get a fully buffed steal we need to spend 8, for improvisation even 10 trait points
thats 300 useless condi dmg and 8/10 trait points less to spend somewhere else

for 8/10 trait points only put into steal (even 2 minors of them are steal only minors) you would kinda expect/want it to be strong right?
the amount of trait points make trickery thieves extremely relying on hitting their steal

But also 300 usefull power and condi duration for a panic strike thieve. However, such arguments won’t be of any importance any more in the future. Of course we can’t really know, how the balance will or will not shift with the whole new balance changes.

Already the combo of boon steal, that prioritizes stability and daze is in itself a huge deal. Alone this, combined with the CD reduction makes steal hugely potent in a unique way and imho is kinda out of control. On the other hand, the synergy those traits provide seems so elegant, that maybe it is the wrong approach to look at thief traits, but at the traits of the other professions… well, we will see how things turn out with the balance patch.

I can’t see a situation where the traits you describe would be OP or out of control. Perhaps you could give an example?

TyPin.9860:

Tarkan.5609:

the thing is – in order to get a fully buffed steal we need to spend 8, for improvisation even 10 trait points
thats 300 useless condi dmg and 8/10 trait points less to spend somewhere else

for 8/10 trait points only put into steal (even 2 minors of them are steal only minors) you would kinda expect/want it to be strong right?
the amount of trait points make trickery thieves extremely relying on hitting their steal

But also 300 usefull power and condi duration for a panic strike thieve. However, such arguments won’t be of any importance any more in the future. Of course we can’t really know, how the balance will or will not shift with the whole new balance changes.

Already the combo of boon steal, that prioritizes stability and daze is in itself a huge deal. Alone this, combined with the CD reduction makes steal hugely potent in a unique way and imho is kinda out of control. On the other hand, the synergy those traits provide seems so elegant, that maybe it is the wrong approach to look at thief traits, but at the traits of the other professions… well, we will see how things turn out with the balance patch.

Out of control? Strong yeah but i wouldnt say so
You mesmers currently have a GM trait that pretty much improve your class mechanic by 1/3 – you need to spend 6 trait points but only chose one trait for that

something thats way more out of control is the shadow arts line imo but thats a different topic

How about when thief uses steal still instant cast he goes into black spectral walk animation and move with 200% move speed towards target or something not sure if 200 is 2 fast or slow it is also a buff beacons imagine using warrior spin and than moving trooh big group in insane speed also wile in this mode you can’t be hit only counter would be evade

Daniel Handler.4816:

I can’t see a situation where the traits you describe would be OP or out of control. Perhaps you could give an example?

Well, I tend to not use the word OP. It has been used so many times in so many situations… it lost meaning to me.

But out of control is the best description imho. One example on top of my head is a character with aegis and stability active. One would think, this character would be kinda save from CC. Now correct me, if I am wrong, but to my knowledge Aeiges and Stabi have a high priority on Bountiful Theft and the boon steal happens even before the actual stun effect of Slight of Hand. Resulting in stole Aegis and Stability and a daze for this character…

I do find that out of control. However, I will probably the next days play a thief. Talking about those traits sounds like fun for a thief. This way I will also see how reliable those traits actually are.

Tarkan.5609:

Out of control? Strong yeah but i wouldnt say so
You mesmers currently have a GM trait that pretty much improve your class mechanic by 1/3 – you need to spend 6 trait points but only chose one trait for that

something thats way more out of control is the shadow arts line imo but thats a different topic

Interestingly even ANet seem to agree that Illusionary Persona should be baseline. It still think is nothing compared to the effects of how some steal traits work currently.

Personally I have not so many issues with shadow arts trait line. Is it annoying to fight a thief, who uses shadow arts? Yes, I hate it. Is it out of control? Nope, I don’t think so. And I main a Mesmer, who has almost no means to attack something that is in stealth.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…

Thieves should have had F1-F4 skills, each as Steal but with different effects. For example, F1 = Steal + Thrill, F2 = Steal + Bounty, F3 = Steal + Mug, F4 = Steal + Daze — or whatever.

This way all these triggers will not happen at the same time using a single Skill.

So yes, let’s stay away from trying to balance Steal instead focus on the traits.

I just want to point out this is kind of a silly suggestion since one could just activate F1-F4 at the same time since they’re all instant-cast and do not interrupt currently-activating skills. It’d also give the thief access to four teleports which would be kind of insane.

What should have happened was Just giving the thief F1-F3, F1 being a separate teleport, possibly being able to be traited to turn into a Shadowstep, F2 being the “steal” skill itself, usable from melee only, which applies the effects and snags a bundle, F3 being the ability of the stolen bundle.

Now you’re looking at a virtue/shatter-equivalent where the cooldowns can be tracked separately and traits can be applied to different aspects of the class mechanic separately. Builds become more diverse and/or either specialized or higher APM like other classes involving teleports + effects.

As a side note, never – EVER – argue that mug being unable to crit is a disadvantage. It used to be able to, and I can tell you now that under current gear, I could one-shot any non-warrior berserker build in the game from pressing this one button if it were able to crit. It can’t crit, but its damage coefficient is extremely high, especially relative to other damaging effects after a teleport.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…

Thieves should have had F1-F4 skills, each as Steal but with different effects. For example, F1 = Steal + Thrill, F2 = Steal + Bounty, F3 = Steal + Mug, F4 = Steal + Daze — or whatever.

This way all these triggers will not happen at the same time using a single Skill.

So yes, let’s stay away from trying to balance Steal instead focus on the traits.

I just want to point out this is kind of a silly suggestion since one could just activate F1-F4 at the same time since they’re all instant-cast and do not interrupt currently-activating skills. It’d also give the thief access to four teleports which would be kind of insane.

What should have happened was Just giving the thief F1-F3, F1 being a separate teleport, possibly being able to be traited to turn into a Shadowstep, F2 being the “steal” skill itself, usable from melee only, which applies the effects and snags a bundle, F3 being the ability of the stolen bundle.

Now you’re looking at a virtue/shatter-equivalent where the cooldowns can be tracked separately and traits can be applied to different aspects of the class mechanic separately. Builds become more diverse and/or either specialized or higher APM like other classes involving teleports + effects.

As a side note, never – EVER – argue that mug being unable to crit is a disadvantage. It used to be able to, and I can tell you now that under current gear, I could one-shot any non-warrior berserker build in the game from pressing this one button if it were able to crit. It can’t crit, but its damage coefficient is extremely high, especially relative to other damaging effects after a teleport.

Its damage coefficient isn’t actually that high. It’s somewhere around 1.1, roughly equivalent to a sigil of air proc. The problem comes from food and multipliers on top of it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug

TyPin.9860:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I can’t see a situation where the traits you describe would be OP or out of control. Perhaps you could give an example?

Well, I tend to not use the word OP. It has been used so many times in so many situations… it lost meaning to me.

But out of control is the best description imho. One example on top of my head is a character with aegis and stability active. One would think, this character would be kinda save from CC. Now correct me, if I am wrong, but to my knowledge Aeiges and Stabi have a high priority on Bountiful Theft and the boon steal happens even before the actual stun effect of Slight of Hand. Resulting in stole Aegis and Stability and a daze for this character…

snip

For priority, protection is higher than aegis. It usually is just removed by mug rather than ripped. This effect is intended for balance though. Ever felt bad because you couldn’t stop an ally who is being stomped by someone with stability? Now you can stop them. Also compare this to mesmer who can equips sword and does 3>3>f3>dodge>f1 and might not even rip stability. The difference is that the mesmer can remove boons way more easily. When mesmer steals/copies/shares we share everything not one stack. It may seem unbalanced but let me show you something funny.

Fun thing. Revenant will gain stability on dodge, there is also a skill that pulses stability. I assume that the new resistance buff will be last priority on steal, and first on corrupt, to balance that stability is last on corrupt and first on steal. Even if it is not. The whole OPness of thieves in this aspect will be greatly reduced. They can’t interrupt a revenant or a guardian on field that pulses stability. Better yet the revenant stability is so easily accessible it can be a cover boon.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unwavering_Avoidance
The thief could be desperately be trying to remove fury and 25 stacks of might, but all the revenant needs to do is have regeneration and dodge. The thief will end up stealing over and over 1 stack of stability and 1 stack of regeneration. Better yet, revenants taunt on cc every 45ish seconds. So that thief is now “run[ning] towards the source of taunt with all skills except stun breakers disabled while using their auto-attack skill.” Hopefully that thief has their signet or shadowstep on cooldown.

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I can’t see a situation where the traits you describe would be OP or out of control. Perhaps you could give an example?

Well, I tend to not use the word OP. It has been used so many times in so many situations… it lost meaning to me.

But out of control is the best description imho. One example on top of my head is a character with aegis and stability active. One would think, this character would be kinda save from CC. Now correct me, if I am wrong, but to my knowledge Aeiges and Stabi have a high priority on Bountiful Theft and the boon steal happens even before the actual stun effect of Slight of Hand. Resulting in stole Aegis and Stability and a daze for this character…

snip

snip

Fun thing. Revenant will gain stability on dodge, there is also a skill that pulses stability. I assume that the new resistance buff will be last priority on steal, and first on corrupt, to balance that stability is last on corrupt and first on steal. Even if it is not. The whole OPness of thieves in this aspect will be greatly reduced. They can’t interrupt a revenant or a guardian on field that pulses stability. Better yet the revenant stability is so easily accessible it can be a cover boon.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unwavering_Avoidance
The thief could be desperately be trying to remove fury and 25 stacks of might, but all the revenant needs to do is have regeneration and dodge. The thief will end up stealing over and over 1 stack of stability and 1 stack of regeneration. Better yet, revenants taunt on cc every 45ish seconds. So that thief is now “run[ning] towards the source of taunt with all skills except stun breakers disabled while using their auto-attack skill.” Hopefully that thief has their signet or shadowstep on cooldown.

stability on dodge?
hahahahaha. haha. ha. ha?
what??
ehm lol
anet no vigor pls, imagine a hammer warrior vs a revenant with vigor… GG

or against a hammer guardian: RoW? cool, i’ll just dodge MB and walk out.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…

Thieves should have had F1-F4 skills, each as Steal but with different effects. For example, F1 = Steal + Thrill, F2 = Steal + Bounty, F3 = Steal + Mug, F4 = Steal + Daze — or whatever.

This way all these triggers will not happen at the same time using a single Skill.

So yes, let’s stay away from trying to balance Steal instead focus on the traits.

I just want to point out this is kind of a silly suggestion since one could just activate F1-F4 at the same time since they’re all instant-cast and do not interrupt currently-activating skills. It’d also give the thief access to four teleports which would be kind of insane.

They would all share a cooldown…steal is steal, the F1-F4 will only determine which effect you want to use with Steal.

As a side note, never – EVER – argue that mug being unable to crit is a disadvantage. It used to be able to, and I can tell you now that under current gear, I could one-shot any non-warrior berserker build in the game from pressing this one button if it were able to crit.

I call BS.

It can’t crit, but its damage coefficient is extremely high, especially relative to other damaging effects after a teleport.

It means nothing if you can’t crit with it.

@Daniel Handler:
The Revenant stuff sounds weird. But I cant really talk about something I have literally 0 experience with.

Back on topic. So what you’re saying is that traited steal (like in a panic strike thief) can actually “remove” Stability, Protection and Aegis on a ~20s CD. On top of it there is the daze effect (next to others, which I disregard for this point). I do indeed find that our of control.

Yes I would be glad to be able to save an ally from being stomped, but what about that guy, who saved his stabi and managed to down my ally without popping it. Boon removal is good and well, but this seems a bit too strong imo. Because, if the thief is not blinded, the daze is guaranteed in this case with only pressing one button.