Guild Wars 2

make heartseeker require a target.

yeah im an ele player and some might try to put this in the perspective as a cry for nerf.
in fact i would argue that it would be a nerf in terms of pvp. in terms of pvp it would maybe make the choice between unhindered combatant and bound smaller and the choice of ur role either dmg or decap more equal. yet shortbow is anyway the way to go in terms of decapabilities. stealth stacking not very often via heartseeker used anyway.

in wvw terms it would maybe open up a bit of counterplay to this grievy mess called ghostthief. additionally dp thiefs who r currently holding 2 of the probably 3 best defensive capabilities – stealth and dodge – would probably go for bound to maintain their advantage. yet atleast bound would open up a way of counterplay for any other class as the soft cc immunity would force the thief to make the choice between da or acro and withdraw or channeled vigor. it would also mean that they lose dodges for their defensiv move instead of having them on top.

I don’t like it. It would make gaining stealth nigh impossible on DP, as you would jumpm towards your target (and into the AoE spam that is GW2).

Ghost thief does need a fix, or better said, a deletion, but that’s quite easily done. Make it so that if the thief reaches a certain stealth stack, he will be revealed at the end for the same duration (something like 6-7 seconds seems good). No matter if he attacks or not.

as i said, ofc thiefs would try to protect their upperhand thats caused by stacking stealth. if u would want that still just chose bound.
chosen bound would therefor mean that u r not anymore immune to soft cc but it would others classes allow to start some sort of counter play. additionally there wouldnt be a split between 2 on top defensiv mechanics anymore as the general dodge amounts would get minimized by using them to gain stealth and or by the use of another healskill.

its a mainly wvw focused suggestion as i stated above and lets not act like dp thiefs with bound are weak in anyway.

Ghost thief can be countered by adding a physical damage attribute to thief traps, which would stop ghost thieves from stacking stealth during combat while traps are going off. This has been suggested many times on this forum. This would fix ghost thief without gimping other builds.

Currently pulmonary impact triggers reveal if the thief is in stealth, traps should do the same in my opinion.

Granted ghost thief will still be able to stack stealth outside of combat, but whatever. The problem with ghost thief is the fact that they abuse stealth while doing damage via traps and often caltrops.

Other classes can stack stealth (engi, mesmer), while they also have active and passive defenses (blocks, invuln passives, etc.) Why should daredevil/thief have to give up our defenses (stealth and evades)?

Edit: It’s quite easy to interrupt a d/p thief trying to stack stealth with pistol 5 + heartseeker. Just interrupt his quite lengthy heartseeker animation, then he has just wasted 8 initiative.

it is actually not quite easy to interrupt a dp thief ^^ the cd of most classes dont even start to compare to the amount of times a thief could do this not to mention the casttime doing so. thats that, the other thing is, the thief lands his p5 on target, so whatever attempt of interrupting u might try u will miss.
if that argument of u would be right than rupt pow mesmer would be all over any thief out there.
if u than still had somehow managed to interrupt the thief whatever his missplay, than the mentioned above other on top defense mechanic will start by meaning dodging untill he has acces to his initiative again.

now there are those who argue, a thief dodging and or being stealthed means he cant do dmg either. the same goes for his oponent, so its a stall invalid argument whereass one class is losing cd and the other gaining it.

Delete trapper runes and boom ghost thief is fixed.

I’ve said this numerous times

Sounds like a Cele Ele that doesn’t know to play their class asking for unnecessary nerfs, nothing new.

Maybe we should delete invisibility? It’s unfair that enemy can’t see thief…

XD

that long hearseeker animation already leaves you very vulnerable as you can only cancel it with weaponswitch, wich obviously not allways want to do. thats the reason why most thieves with dash run to a save distance before using that combo and bound thieves normally start stealth stacking with a bound.

also its a leap skill, as far as i know there is no leap skill ingame that needs a target, only some teleports like a mesmers ‘illusionary leap’ . so if you make heartseeker a teleport with that dmg and leap finisher , instant so you cant interrupt it, then im fine with it needing a target but then it should be kinda like the guards teleport on sword, so that u dont have to be in range to teleport towards that direction.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sounds like a Cele Ele that doesn’t know to play their class asking for unnecessary nerfs, nothing new.

You don’t think a ghost-thieves is a problem?

While I agree that the nerf suggested is completely unnecessary as there are miles better solutions (small physical damage to traps), I am just curious.

TwiceDead.1963:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sounds like a Cele Ele that doesn’t know to play their class asking for unnecessary nerfs, nothing new.

You don’t think a ghost-thieves is a problem?

While I agree that the nerf suggested is completely unnecessary as there are miles better solutions (small physical damage to traps), I am just curious.

i dont think ghost thief is an issue, i kill most of them with my thief.

Azukas.1426:

Delete trapper runes and boom ghost thief is fixed.

I’ve said this numerous times

You are wrong just as many times. Ghost thief does not require trapper runes nor are they desirable. Trapper runes give 2 seconds stealth on use on at best a 24 second cooldown. This does not suggest they are the problem.

This is a link to a GHOST thief build that will maintain permanent stealth without using trappers runes and have damage output superior to a trapper rune build.

Note that in DA i deliberately did not select trap traits nor take any trps this to show the build can be done as well without using a single trap. It certainly more effective to put in one trap trait but this to point out you can still have ghost thief without using a trap. Improv or potent poison are both valid choices .

Note that the Tooltip for perplexity is wrong in the editor as it applies confusion on heal. This can be done from hiding just as one can apply confusion from hiding via pain inverter.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQJAoalsMhunYzTwyNw/EHwEl/LijRk3DxwOoTgAY3A-T1h0wA+U/xpyvwKBJs/AgTAQgHAgL9AkCAmxWA-w

The fact is this. The build exists because of stealth stacking on d/p. Trappers runes has little to do with it. People calling for nerfs or changes should be aware of what makes these builds work.

TwiceDead.1963:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sounds like a Cele Ele that doesn’t know to play their class asking for unnecessary nerfs, nothing new.

You don’t think a ghost-thieves is a problem?

While I agree that the nerf suggested is completely unnecessary as there are miles better solutions (small physical damage to traps), I am just curious.

Phyiscal damage to traps will not fix ghost thiefs. I can design a ghost thief without using a single trap.

It will not be as effective , but in the long run they are not that effective anyways. Most Ghost thieves use one trap as the others do not apply conditions. For the most part they have a nuiscance factor , one which would remain even if traps had damage added and adding damage to traps would simply mean no thief that is NOT ghost thief would use them.

I suggest that were damage added to traps as a “fix” this is what WOULD happen.
Traps would rarely be used at all by any other thief build. Many of the troll type would design around it by not taking traps. Those that take traps AND THERE ONLY ONE taken in any case (needle trap) would simply adapt and reobtain stealth on reveal via the d/p set. The time they are revealed will not be seen as enough time to counter by people complaining about ghost thief. More nerfs will be requested.

Were I the ghost thief type wanting to use a trap that did damage in a build I would do this. Set the trap and stack stealth standing off to the one side until it triggered. On triggered I am revealed but would be at range and generally out of immediate LOS meaning it would take a while for the enemy to track me. Restealth via d/p. Steal to target via hidden thief and heal wearing runes of perplexity. Apply pain inverter. Drop caltrops.

Continue to stack stealth with the d/p set.

We could just not play ghost thief out of some small sense of respect for ourselves as players.

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

Delete trapper runes and boom ghost thief is fixed.

I’ve said this numerous times

You are wrong just as many times. Ghost thief does not require trapper runes nor are they desirable. Trapper runes give 2 seconds stealth on use on at best a 24 second cooldown. This does not suggest they are the problem.

This is a link to a GHOST thief build that will maintain permanent stealth without using trappers runes and have damage output superior to a trapper rune build.

Note that in DA i deliberately did not select trap traits nor take any trps this to show the build can be done as well without using a single trap. It certainly more effective to put in one trap trait but this to point out you can still have ghost thief without using a trap. Improv or potent poison are both valid choices .

Note that the Tooltip for perplexity is wrong in the editor as it applies confusion on heal. This can be done from hiding just as one can apply confusion from hiding via pain inverter.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQJAoalsMhunYzTwyNw/EHwEl/LijRk3DxwOoTgAY3A-T1h0wA+U/xpyvwKBJs/AgTAQgHAgL9AkCAmxWA-w

The fact is this. The build exists because of stealth stacking on d/p. Trappers runes has little to do with it. People calling for nerfs or changes should be aware of what makes these builds work.

Problems:
1. Shadow Refuge
2. Racial Skill
3. You’ll run out of Initiative eventually relying that heavily on 5 + 2 combo
4. Best check to see if retaliation reveals you. I personally forget

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

Delete trapper runes and boom ghost thief is fixed.

I’ve said this numerous times

You are wrong just as many times. Ghost thief does not require trapper runes nor are they desirable. Trapper runes give 2 seconds stealth on use on at best a 24 second cooldown. This does not suggest they are the problem.

This is a link to a GHOST thief build that will maintain permanent stealth without using trappers runes and have damage output superior to a trapper rune build.

Note that in DA i deliberately did not select trap traits nor take any trps this to show the build can be done as well without using a single trap. It certainly more effective to put in one trap trait but this to point out you can still have ghost thief without using a trap. Improv or potent poison are both valid choices .

Note that the Tooltip for perplexity is wrong in the editor as it applies confusion on heal. This can be done from hiding just as one can apply confusion from hiding via pain inverter.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQJAoalsMhunYzTwyNw/EHwEl/LijRk3DxwOoTgAY3A-T1h0wA+U/xpyvwKBJs/AgTAQgHAgL9AkCAmxWA-w

The fact is this. The build exists because of stealth stacking on d/p. Trappers runes has little to do with it. People calling for nerfs or changes should be aware of what makes these builds work.

Problems:
1. Shadow Refuge
2. Racial Skill
3. You’ll run out of Initiative eventually relying that heavily on 5 + 2 combo
4. Best check to see if retaliation reveals you. I personally forget

None of your refutations are “problems” People have posted their ghost thief builds. They do not need trappers., They only need INI for stealth. In fact you do not even need SR. (rejuv gens you more ini as you sit in stealth coupled with your steals . (You have plenty of INI for full time stealth using just d/p)

Again ONE trap is used in most builds. Trappers allows 2 seconds stealth from this trap. Trust me trappers runes are not needed. You are not 2 seconds short of ini in a 24 second period due to having no trappers.

As to using a racial skill , that not the point. The build is doable this time without traps and without trappers runes. Others have used Reaper of Grenth.

Retal? what is the issue. There jno direct damage going on . Putting on trappers runes does not suddenly end retal. Taking damage does not reveal a stealthed thief. I am not sure why you mention it.

rennlc.7346:

We could just not play ghost thief out of some small sense of respect for ourselves as players.

Overall it a poor build but the determining factor in its play is not Trappers runes nor even traps, it is stealth stacking via d/p and that it.

babazhook.6805:

Overall it a poor build but the determining factor in its play is not Trappers runes nor even traps, it is stealth stacking via d/p and that it.

Actually it IS the traps. You see stealth stacking by utilizing d/p does not do anything other then well… stacking stealth. The traps however allow you to remain in stealth when someone triggers them. So to bring it more in line, i would say add reveal to it when someone activates the trap. And that for like.. idk, 2 or 3 seconds? i think that would be fair

As for the target requirement for heartseeker…Definitly no go. This would cripple thief ALOT

“Hm, I’m bored today. I should suggest stupid things on forum.” – OP, before posting this.

Seriously op, leave.

When trapper runes were introduced, thief traps had a small amount of physical damage and would reveal you when used because of it. Anet specifically changed traps to not reveal you when used to make the runes worth using – they aren’t going to change it back! It’s intended behaviour people!

As many have said, D/P is the reason ghost thief exists. I have a P/D trapper thief build I’m rather fond of, DA Trickery DD, it can’t and doesn’t need to permanently stealth. It just uses the traps for an opportunity to sneak attack, as well as a ranged spike when used with Steal. If I wanted to permastealth, I’d take perplexity runes, D/P and SA, trapper runes aren’t needed nor are they optimal for that build.

By all means nerf ghost thief, just don’t nerf trapper thief into the floor in a way that won’t actually affect ghost thief in the first place. D/P is the problem, so while the op’s suggestion is probably too far he’s at least looking in the right direction.

I don’t understand all the complain behind ghost thief…I mean, how many times do you cross one ?

If you have a zerg build you are most likely to die to a roamer thief if you cross one anyway. If you are a roamer, you shouldn’t get stuck for too long by a ghost thief either…Maybe it’s because it hits a nerve to get killed by something you don’t know how to react to. I suppose it’s an indivual problem in that case.

If you really want to fight a ghost thief there are multiples ways to access to reveal through the game….

i see 4-5 enemy ghost thieves every week and sadly also a few on my server, if they are on the same map as i am i often run into random anti stealth traps .. thats the only issue i got
tho i think those anti stealth traps and supply removal trapps should not trigger for a single enemy but when 3 are near it ( ofc the trigger radius got to be larger), then they are also more effective against groups as they cant sent only 1 person to trigger them all.

but still the topic is about heartseeker cause of stealth stacking with d/p . reducing the smokefield duration to the half of it would also kinda fix stacking alot of stealth while its still enough to stack stealth as a group or for 2 leap finishers. but this way a thief will prob not be able to relay on stealth as its only defence and will have to build in annoyin dogging and running. currently at least in wvw(wich is the main issue of the OP) you can play with only stealth as defence and without mobility if you play with SA and bound thats what i do for instance.

thing is there is counterplay for stealth but there is no counterplay to superior mobility. so as your problem in OP is the combination of stealth + mobility, either demand some mobility nerfes wich we wont get easily as we need that for pvp or another option would be make shadow arts’ trait Meld with Shadows also apply to combos leap / blast in smoefield while nerfing the effect duration by 1 second. this way you push the thief more to use shadow arts if he wants to relay on stealth as defence. then he will lose either dmg for giving up DA or he will lose some dogges for giving up acro and lst option he just live with 2 sec stealth from combo so its not really worth stacking it only for a quick backstab that has to land on first try or he has a problem with backstab cd..
that way OP would be happy and my build in wvw wont get hurt

MUDse.7623:

i see 4-5 enemy ghost thieves every week and sadly also a few on my server, if they are on the same map as i am i often run into random anti stealth traps .. thats the only issue i got
tho i think those anti stealth traps and supply removal trapps should not trigger for a single enemy but when 3 are near it ( ofc the trigger radius got to be larger), then they are also more effective against groups as they cant sent only 1 person to trigger them all.

but still the topic is about heartseeker cause of stealth stacking with d/p . reducing the smokefield duration to the half of it would also kinda fix stacking alot of stealth while its still enough to stack stealth as a group or for 2 leap finishers. but this way a thief will prob not be able to relay on stealth as its only defence and will have to build in annoyin dogging and running. currently at least in wvw(wich is the main issue of the OP) you can play with only stealth as defence and without mobility if you play with SA and bound thats what i do for instance.

thing is there is counterplay for stealth but there is no counterplay to superior mobility. so as your problem in OP is the combination of stealth + mobility, either demand some mobility nerfes wich we wont get easily as we need that for pvp or another option would be make shadow arts’ trait Meld with Shadows also apply to combos leap / blast in smoefield while nerfing the effect duration by 1 second. this way you push the thief more to use shadow arts if he wants to relay on stealth as defence. then he will lose either dmg for giving up DA or he will lose some dogges for giving up acro and lst option he just live with 2 sec stealth from combo so its not really worth stacking it only for a quick backstab that has to land on first try or he has a problem with backstab cd..
that way OP would be happy and my build in wvw wont get hurt

Ghost Thief builds don’t use Acro…… so your “solution” would do nothing for the op and the two-three builds that use Acro don’t utilize Stealth often or at all, just saying. Your “solution” would just make the Stealth designed class have worse Stealth than every other class in game that can access it.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ghost Thief builds don’t use Acro…… so your “solution” would do nothing for the op and the two-three builds that use Acro don’t utilize Stealth often or at all, just saying. Your “solution” would just make the Stealth designed class have worse Stealth than every other class in game that can access it.

ghost thief is just one issue mentioned by OP, he also said his problem is they have access to use both mobility and stealth. in wvw most its like half the thieves run with acro and the other half is playing pvp meta build, and only a few play something else.

and there are d/p acro thieves, staff ones and those d/d condi ones. staff and d/d indeed dont use stealth , but d/p ones do.

but you are right only thieves using shadow arts, ghost thief being one of them have alot of stealth and mostly only a bit mobility, unless u play shadowarts + dash and therefor not using all your cool shadow arts traits properly. but as we wont get a nerf on mobility side that easily, cause its needed for spvp and OP wants a nerf to the combination of mobility/dogging and stealth he can only hope for a stealth nerf as the other one is unlikely to happen. i just want if they give us a stealth nerf, that it only applies to thieves not using shadow arts, meaning i want what every they nerf in stealthing to be buffed into shadow arts. as i only see few people using it, it probably could use a reason to be used again. ( i use it for its condi remove mainly as it doesnt require your opponent to keep attacking you like DD one ).

Suggestion to Anet-Devs, delete OP’s Account.

MUDse.7623:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ghost Thief builds don’t use Acro…… so your “solution” would do nothing for the op and the two-three builds that use Acro don’t utilize Stealth often or at all, just saying. Your “solution” would just make the Stealth designed class have worse Stealth than every other class in game that can access it.

ghost thief is just one issue mentioned by OP, he also said his problem is they have access to use both mobility and stealth. in wvw most its like half the thieves run with acro and the other half is playing pvp meta build, and only a few play something else.

and there are d/p acro thieves, staff ones and those d/d condi ones. staff and d/d indeed dont use stealth , but d/p ones do.

but you are right only thieves using shadow arts, ghost thief being one of them have alot of stealth and mostly only a bit mobility, unless u play shadowarts + dash and therefor not using all your cool shadow arts traits properly. but as we wont get a nerf on mobility side that easily, cause its needed for spvp and OP wants a nerf to the combination of mobility/dogging and stealth he can only hope for a stealth nerf as the other one is unlikely to happen. i just want if they give us a stealth nerf, that it only applies to thieves not using shadow arts, meaning i want what every they nerf in stealthing to be buffed into shadow arts. as i only see few people using it, it probably could use a reason to be used again. ( i use it for its condi remove mainly as it doesnt require your opponent to keep attacking you like DD one ).

It’s not like other classes don’t have mobility/Invulnerabilities/and sustain through healing and their plethora of passives.

And again your suggestion would be making the Clkitten is solely designed around Stealth be worse at stealth than every other class that has it, on top of all of the Nerfs Thief has received in regards to stealth and stealth attacks.

Players like to look at classes and balance in a complete Vacuum, which is the stupidest thing to do, look at the entire game state as a whole, every class has OP aspects and builds, the funny thing Stealth on Thief isn’t even OP, every class needs to be nerfed especially in regards to the Elite Specs and they need all the Passive Proc traits removed from game and passive sustain reduced on top of damage being nerfed across the board.

And like you said earlier you don’t care if they nerf Stealth because it wouldn’t affect you. Some logic there,, smh

Again like I said originally it seems like someone plays a cele Ele in WvW and got wrest by a better player on Thief.

GWMO.4785:

babazhook.6805:

Overall it a poor build but the determining factor in its play is not Trappers runes nor even traps, it is stealth stacking via d/p and that it.

Actually it IS the traps. You see stealth stacking by utilizing d/p does not do anything other then well… stacking stealth. The traps however allow you to remain in stealth when someone triggers them. So to bring it more in line, i would say add reveal to it when someone activates the trap. And that for like.. idk, 2 or 3 seconds? i think that would be fair

As for the target requirement for heartseeker…Definitly no go. This would cripple thief ALOT

Pain inverter is not a trap. Caltrops is not a trap. Healing applying confusion is not a trap. BA applied on steal is not a trap.

There are 4 traps available to the thief. Shadow trap. Ambush. Needle trap and Tripwire. None of these but needle trap apply conditions.

Thus you are talking about one trap which I have shown you can replaced in the build if it not used quite easily with a non trap damaging skill and still give perma stealth as damage applied. Further to that applying damage to this one trap as I already suggested, will not end the complaints.

I said very much the same thing when trappers runes were first downtweaked. I stated the fix was in response to people who did not know how a Ghost Thief worked and would not end the complaints.

IF in fact needle trap has damage applied and the ghost thief continues to use it, this will mean 4 seconds exposed out of 24 at most meaning the rest of the time in stealth. I Assure you the people will continue to complain that only seeing that thief for 4 seconds out of 24 is OP and I assure you that unless a thief totally incompetent he can manage being revealed 4 seconds in 24. He certainly has dodges.

Scenario after a patch where “damage added to traps” because people think it a solution.

Two Asura Ghost thiefs stack stealth via d/p They both wear perplexity runes and trait BA along with Pain Inverter.

From stealth they steal to a target. Given they are stealthed it unlikely the target saw them coming and the steal not avoided.

They heal at the target and apply pain inverter in unison.

The target has just taken 22 stacks of confusion. Caltrops dropped by each for added bleeds and cripples to add to the weakness and poison applied from the steal.

Do you think the same types of people calling for damage to be applied to traps will refuse to come to these boards and complain because “Well at least traps apply a reveal and they did not use Needle On me”?

All that fix of “forcing traps to apply damage and force a reveal” will do is break traps and put them back into the non used category and the same complaints will remain.

The ROOT cause is stealth stacking. It is not traps. It is not Trappers runes.

babazhook.6805:

The ROOT cause is stealth stacking. It is not traps. It is not Trappers runes.

+ poeple not trying to preassure black powder circles. i just step into ghost thieves little red circles and p/p pew pew em down while interrupting their next attmpt to stealth with steal, works mostly.
as i do play a very stealthy thief with shadow arts and do stealth capping in wvw and so on, i do know from experience that very few people preassure those little red cirles with cc or by going inside. i see that like once in a month at most and i play alot.
most ppl just sit and wait or use some DMG skills on that pistolfield, as if that stopped me from keep stacking, while i recive reduced dmg, heal and condi remove from shadow arts i mostly dont even feel those hits, tho i am running full berserk.

It’s like people can only think of ways to nerf D/P that will also kitten on power D/D builds, which are already bad. LOL. Nerf Bound , Acro , Pulmonary Impact, and increase the initiative cost of Vault by 1. Remove the cooldown on stealth skills. Then buff thief weapons across the board until they each have a niche they can fill or are at least somewhat viable. D/P and staff are overtuned right now because they’re the only weapons you can use against OP builds and competent players. Nerf what makes them spammy or cancerous and then bring them up in other ways with the rest of the weaponsets. It isn’t hard to make thief more fun, diverse, and balanced.

so u want thief with every weapon to be as strong as he is with D/D ? as long as CnD is not unblockable u wont make me use that set.

MUDse.7623:

so u want thief with every weapon to be as strong as he is with D/D ? as long as CnD is not unblockable u wont make me use that set.

The point is to make other weaponsets viable. D/P has been THE thief set for years now. There’s nothing wrong with it being a good- or even the strongest- thief weapon, but it is a problem when it crowds out other weapons and becomes frustrating to play against.

The Acro, Bandit’s Defense, Bound dodge D/P build is legitimately OP in WvW. You can’t be bursted from 100-0 because of Instant Reflexes, your stealth can’t be interrupted because of Bound dodge (and it essentially makes it so that you never run out of stealth or initiative), you can’t be locked down because of Hard to Catch and Bandit’s Defense, your interrupts can do anywhere from 3-4k damage, and you can take out 70% of a squishies health in a combo.

Having strengths is fine, but right now it’s actually hard to die. Nerf what is OP and buff D/P in other ways that will give skilled thieves the same relative strength, while also making it less frustrating to play against and less forgiving to players who aren’t as good or experienced.

To that same end, other thief weapons are garbage atm. Anything D/D and S/D can do, D/P can do better. S/P has more CC and P/P has more range, but they’re still inferior to D/P. I’m not even going to talk about P/D. Staff is good. Vault is a little dumb, but it isn’t making other options less viable. I love thief- I even like D/P- but the options have grown stale.

Requiring a target would screw d/d builds even more than they already are. -1