Guild Wars 2

why i am kicked because i am a thief ? WHY ? !!!
note: there were no other thieves in the party

all ppl want is guardian, guardian, and more guardians, i am sick of this…

Because Warriors/Guardians > everything else.

Also, just don’t mention anything about you being a Thief. That oozes “I’m not confident in myself”.

Auesis.7301:

Also, just don’t mention anything about you being a Thief. That oozes “I’m not confident in myself”.

I don’t put my profession in my LFG message because it doesn’t matter. If they respond asking for it, it isn’t a group I’m interested in. There are some professions that excel at particular roles, but if you’re already doing a pickup group then everyone being not-terrible is far more important than composition.

As for the logic on their end? Thieves are worse than other professions on average. Not because thieves are a worse profession mechanically, but because they take more input to get the same output as other professions. It is straight up easier to survive and do your job as a profession that relies on just soaking up hits to survive as opposed to evading them. Looking in from the outside, it means thieves can’t survive as well as other professions, which is true on average even if it isn’t true mechanically. A well played thief is awesome and brings as much to the group as any other profession. A poorly played thief brings almost nothing, while a poorly played guardian is an amazing group asset.

Thieves really aren’t particularly attractive group mates. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do all the content.

But looking at support, just compare the effectiveness of our only real support abilities Shadow Refuge and Smoke Screen with the entire arsenal of a Guardian, the combo fields of an Elementalist or the Shouts of a Warrior.

Thieves seem to be designed in a very “selfish” fashion. Even if we want to build for support our tool-set is very limited.

Add to that that Thieves are probably your most frequently “downed” class in PvE and I get why people would skip them.

Dee Jay.2460:

Thieves really aren’t particularly attractive group mates. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do all the content.

But looking at support, just compare the effectiveness of our only real support abilities Shadow Refuge and Smoke Screen with the entire arsenal of a Guardian, the combo fields of an Elementalist or the Shouts of a Warrior.

Thieves seem to be designed in a very “selfish” fashion. Even if we want to build for support our tool-set is very limited.

Much of thief support is designed around non-damage conditions. On paper, Weakness, Cripple, Blind, Vulnerability, etc are the equals of Might, Aegis, Protection etc. The problem being that, in practice, when you actually care about the support (bosses), boon-based support is way way better than condition-based support. If I’m fighting a swarm of trash I’ll take thief AE blind/weakness/cripple any day, but if I’m fighting a boss where those conditions aren’t likely to make much of a difference, I’d much rather have Aegis to soak a missed dodge. Boss design marginalizes thief support.

That said, shortbow’s spammable blast finisher can still offer some really awesome utility, thieves just lack easy and attractive combo fields to utilize it with. Quickly stacking >10 Might stacks for the entire group via fire field or some of the most powerful group healing via a water field is where the thief can really shine. But most thieves don’t take +boon duration or +healing because those fields aren’t organic to the thief, so specializing in them without being able to ensure they’ll be around is folly.

The solution? Some more boon potential on thief weapon skills. I’d like to see a Focus and Torch off-hand with some more support/boon based skill. Either that or rebalance bosses to make Blind completely trivialize them like Aegis does.

>MFW everyone complains their own class is underpowered and rejected from groups.

Yes. Even the Guardians and Warriors. (What’s funny is they’re jealous of each other.)

I think a large part of the problem is how many bad thief players there are. Going a dungeon in berserker gear and with a BS build is doing everyone a disservice unless you are really good at avoiding damage (which very few players are). So many people are used to such a build working great in normal pve where you can quickly take down the mob but when their chain takes away less than 15% of the health of a trash mob in a dungeon they’re sitting ducks and quickly get downed. Combine this with the previous mentioned lack of support in comparison to other classes and the end result is that while thieves certainly can pull their weight in a dungeon in the hands of a capable player, they’re still likely to be the least wanted class to bring along.

Giving more boons would be nice but it would have to come at the cost of damage dealt for balance’s sake. I don’t know if that’s something players would be prepared to sacrifice since they’re used to the current design where thieves do huge damage but little else, it works in pvp and open world pve but in dungeons it’s not very helpful.

Regarding asking about class/build. There might actually be a good reason for this. You don’t want more than max two condition characters in a group since the damage will be so low it will take ages (or in some cases like AC3 be way more difficult/annoying).

I run about 2 to 5 dungeon paths per day and have been doing so more or less since september, I have never kicked anyone for their class but there are definitely classes I’m way more happy to include than others. In the end though, it’s the skills of the player and not the skills of their character that matter. If you can avoid getting downed too often, avoid bad pulls and generally be a nice person then I’m happy to have tou in my group regardless of class.

Rainu.6871:

I think a large part of the problem is how many bad thief players there are.

This isn’t really fair. There are an equal amount of bad thieves as any other profession, the difference is that bad thieves can’t get away with it.

Tulisin.6945:

Rainu.6871:

I think a large part of the problem is how many bad thief players there are.

This isn’t really fair. There are an equal amount of bad thieves as any other profession, the difference is that bad thieves can’t get away with it.

Mostly true, yes. I’d say the problem is that the one of (if not the) most common builds, the afore mentioned berserker BS build, is good in open world pve and while leveling but is horrible in dungeons. For most other classes the more common leveling builds are all viable for dungeons and therefore they perform better. I wouldn’t say thieves have the highest “skill floor” (I’d give that dubious honor to mesmers since trying to keep clones up in a dungeon gets old very fast and GC d/d eles although they are very rare) but thieves certainly have a high demand on their damage avoidance skills and using stealth won’t cut it (another thing BS builds often seem to don’t want to recognize) so when to dodge, evade and simply getting out of the way are things that are vital to learn.

I never kick people due to their class, however, whenever I get a thief in group I worry they might be a liability. There are too many bad apples among the thieves.

It depends what you already have in group, most other professions can apply the debuffs a thief can, but most come with more utility in addition to that, or are more resilient and some both.

Rainu.6871:

BS build, is good in open world pve and while leveling but is horrible in dungeons. .

It really isn’t. Effectively used BS build works better in dungeons than it does in open world PvE or while leveling. The burst single-target damage lends itself better to dungeon combat than elsewhere. Ineffectively used BS build is terrible everywhere, you just can’t get away with it in dungeons. It isn’t the mechanics in this case, it is the player.

SneakyErvin

t depends what you already have in group, most other professions can apply the debuffs a thief can

It is easy to say this off hand, but thieves are truly unmatched in their ability to easily and consistently apply blind, weakness, poison, and cripple. Nobody cares or really considers it a major thief asset because those conditions aren’t very useful in party-based PvE and just killing someone is far better than trying to debuff them in PvP.

Why is the Berzerker Backstab build bad in dungeons? This is the kind of reflection that causes every pug to graveyard zerg CoF path 2 or avoid SE path 1 entirely. The pure lack of DPS in groups because everyone is so bad it needs a P/T/V armor set just not to get downed every time is appalling and it makes some dungeon runs so slow you could fall asleep on the way.

GW2 needs a LOT more DPS check situations. Maybe then there will be less complaints that bosses are boring and have too much HP.

Tulisin.6945:

Rainu.6871:

BS build, is good in open world pve and while leveling but is horrible in dungeons. .

It really isn’t. Effectively used BS build works better in dungeons than it does in open world PvE or while leveling. The burst single-target damage lends itself better to dungeon combat than elsewhere. Ineffectively used BS build is terrible everywhere, you can’t get away with it in dungeons. It isn’t the mechanics in this case, it is the player.

I admit to simplifying a bit, as I stated earlier a BS build can work but it puts a very high demand on the skill of the player and quite frankly I have very seldom seen people do that. A well played BS build can speed up the run but they don’t have to get downed often for the opposite to be true. While the time lost is the same for any class, I would say that beside dps d/d eles, BS thieves are the ones most often downed. There are situations where burst damage is very good but on the whole I usually much prefer sustained damage since so many bosses have mechanics (knock downs, evades/temporary immunity, etc) that can negate a burst.

Tulisin.6945:

Rainu.6871:

BS build, is good in open world pve and while leveling but is horrible in dungeons. .

It really isn’t. Effectively used BS build works better in dungeons than it does in open world PvE or while leveling. The burst single-target damage lends itself better to dungeon combat than elsewhere. Ineffectively used BS build is terrible everywhere, you just can’t get away with it in dungeons. It isn’t the mechanics in this case, it is the player.

SneakyErvin

t depends what you already have in group, most other professions can apply the debuffs a thief can

It is easy to say this off hand, but thieves are truly unmatched in their ability to easily and consistently apply blind, weakness, poison, and cripple. Nobody cares or really considers it a major thief asset because those conditions aren’t very useful in party-based PvE and just killing someone is far better than trying to debuff them in PvP.

But the thing is, appying them over and over to have any lasting impression drains your ini, which means you deal only auto attack damage.

Necro for instance applies weakness and bleed at the same time and has another utility for weakness, both being AoE. Guardians can spam AoE blind over and over, while dealing damage and buffing their groups damage through burn.

And weakness is one of the best conditions in PvE, it can be what decides if a groupmember is staying up or getting downed.

Other classes just have an easier time applying those debuffs without giving up their damage. And for cripple you might aswell bring a necro, they chill and DoT up the target at the same time.

It’s just all easier and safer with other classes doing the job a theif can do, because its comes as a passive thing woven into their other abilites mostly. Not saying thieves are bad or that I wont group with them, but why take the biscuit when you can have a cake?

SneakyErvin.3056:

But the thing is, appying them over and over to have any lasting impression drains your ini, which means you deal only auto attack damage.

SB applies AE poison and weakness with ease at a low resource cost. Sword applies cripple/weakness with ease. Dagger with trait applies weakness with ease on auto.

I get the point you’re trying to make, but it isn’t true, thieves are the best at cheaply applying those conditions. Nobody makes a big deal of it, and the traits that make it easier aren’t commonly taken, because non-damage conditions don’t have a very good niche.

Furthermore “you deal only auto attack damage” doesn’t really mean much with a sword when that is already the highest DPS attack, and it is usually the most effective DPS route for dagger.

i started fractals 2 days ago and , since today i also refuse thieves in my party
Reason : i had 5 thieves in party untill now in fractal
none droped shadow refuge on downed ally’s
no thief used blinding powder to drop agro from downed players
when i asked for nedlle trap at dredge last boss , most responses i got was : lool
no thief used dagger storm or cluster vs mob trains.
So why should i pick an thief for fractals party.
thieves i meet by now- fragile, singets, non eficient burst, get downed before other party memeber

Rainu.6871:

Tulisin.6945:

Rainu.6871:

BS build, is good in open world pve and while leveling but is horrible in dungeons. .

It really isn’t. Effectively used BS build works better in dungeons than it does in open world PvE or while leveling. The burst single-target damage lends itself better to dungeon combat than elsewhere. Ineffectively used BS build is terrible everywhere, you can’t get away with it in dungeons. It isn’t the mechanics in this case, it is the player.

I admit to simplifying a bit, as I stated earlier a BS build can work but it puts a very high demand on the skill of the player and quite frankly I have very seldom seen people do that. A well played BS build can speed up the run but they don’t have to get downed often for the opposite to be true. While the time lost is the same for any class, I would say that beside dps d/d eles, BS thieves are the ones most often downed. There are situations where burst damage is very good but on the whole I usually much prefer sustained damage since so many bosses have mechanics (knock downs, evades/temporary immunity, etc) that can negate a burst.

you can go BS build very efficient with 30 points in shadow arts 30 in critical strikes and 10 in deadly arts. you lose 12% damage 5% from dagger mastery and 6-7% from 200 power
every C&d will remove 1 condition and will regen 350 hp /sec stelthed + 1 free aoe blind. But ofc no thieves i meet in fractals yet used that, even if 1 blind at 4 seconds improve party survaivability a lot.

Rayya.2591:

But ofc no thieves i meet in fractals yet used that, even if 1 blind at 4 seconds improve party survaivability a lot.

Against what? Blind isn’t useful against anything dangerous with perhaps the exception of high level fractals where trash hits hard, but most of the difficulty is still accomplished by volume and the fractal it’d be the most useful in has blind-immune trash.

But your examples are fair enough, some bad thieves turned you off to the profession, and that is the sad reality.

Theres always that one class that a person becomes wary of after doing enough fractals. You just happened to find someone that dislikes thieves.

Personally, for fractals ive become wary of signet warriors. Always getting down and not contributing to party. As im sure theres someone who probably refuses to party my class, engineers. But i love to pt with thieves. Their stealth is a huge help when someone goes down.

Personally I don’t like seeing rangers. They aren’t even trained in ranged combat, only the warrior is.

There are two types of thieves:

The ones that spam HS and DB, hoping the mob dies, and the ones that provide constant DPS while also throwing down decent CC:
Caltrops for very long cripple durations granting the mob stands on it the whole time. Smoke screen for projectiles.
Dancing daggers for more cripple and more projectile reflection.
Signet of Agility for condition removal and endurance refill.
Stealth ressing. I find myself ressing my entire team from stealth more often that I find myself downed.

Thieves can be great additions to a party if played right. Sadly, not too many people manage to do more than spam two buttons.

Original poster, the only problem you are experiencing is that your server is kitten. Switch servers to one where people aren’t kitten.

Rayya.2591:

i started fractals 2 days ago and , since today i also refuse thieves in my party
Reason : i had 5 thieves in party untill now in fractal
none droped shadow refuge on downed ally’s
no thief used blinding powder to drop agro from downed players
when i asked for nedlle trap at dredge last boss , most responses i got was : lool
no thief used dagger storm or cluster vs mob trains.
So why should i pick an thief for fractals party.
thieves i meet by now- fragile, singets, non eficient burst, get downed before other party memeber

sample size is not statistically significant

Well, we are designed to trade resistance for burst, to kill quick before it gets hot, which is meaningless against silver+ mobs running around with huge pools of hp.

We have the means to survive, dodge, reposition, break aggro and such, but sometimes it just doesn’t cut it.

I am running Crucible of Eternity a lot with my guildmates these days, and some particular rooms are shouting don’t enter if you’re a thief at you.

Especially the fights against subject alpha, where every time we go up against him, he decides there is no one else in the room but me, no matter how many times i reset, stealth, or even stop attacking, he will rush to me soon as he can see me, and avoiding his teeth of mordremoth is pretty hard considering you can’t always tell which direction he is facing with all the fx, and despite me running full acrobatics, endurance isn’t free.

That’s just an exemple, but i think some mobs are designed to chase after the player with the lowest toughness value.

You end up dying a lot sometimes, and you can’t make up for it with your useless dps.
Guardians on the other hand can soak up damages while still being able to steadily dps the targets.

It really feels like the game is designed around tanks sometimes, and yea it can be a bit frustrating.

Those are rare situations though.
FotM isn’t hard as a thief, AC neither, TA can be pretty rough against the nightmare vine, etc.

We have our advantages though, shadow refuge is an awesome prot skill to help an ally lose aggro or to res, agility signet will help a lot against pesky burn / poison spammers, scorpion wire to pull that one mob every one hates from 1200 range into your team, shadowstep and even sometimes steal to avoid stuns, prisons and such that would mean your death otherwise, and shadowstep again in puzzles like CoE laser room.

In the end i think people hate thieves because many of us persist with using d/d GC with no support whatsoever during dungeons, and also because of how it is with every MMOs, people want it fast, so the majority of them will want to pug the most efficient and fast team. Like you would get some teams made out only of monks and eles in GW1.

I am running a p/p build in both pve and pvp so i am not affected by the d/d issue, on the other hand i believe this is the perfect example that calls for the ability to at least store a second build on which you can switch for no cost, so my fellow thieves running GC d/d in wvw can have a viable pve option without losing all their money into respec.

And last, community is a kitten sometimes, my guild would never complain about me running a thief in any dungeon. Find some reliable friends.

In my experience doing pug fractals there are two classes in the game I cringe when I get in my group, thieves and rangers. Has nothing at all to do with the class, but the people behind them. Not sure why, but both of these classes attracts the worst kind of players. Rangers they do not want to do anything but stand in the back and plink. Most thieves they are either dying non-stop, or standing in the back doing sub-par plinking.

If you get a thief in your fractals that has a kitten spec, doesnt use smoke screen when its needed, etc… please nicely help them become better so we can all stop being treated like we are not helpful to a group, when we really are.

In the end i think people hate thieves because many of us persist with using d/d GC with no support whatsoever during dungeons, and also because of how it is with every MMOs, people want it fast, so the majority of them will want to pug the most efficient and fast team. Like you would get some teams made out only of monks and eles in GW1.
I am running a p/p build in both pve and pvp so i am not affected by the d/d issue, on the other hand i believe this is the perfect example that calls for the ability to at least store a second build on which you can switch for no cost, so my fellow thieves running GC d/d in wvw can have a viable pve option without losing all their money into respec.

Well genius , D/D GC IS the most efficient build available to Thief If played well.But instead you play the lamest setup possible in a dungeon , P/P.Good for you.
If anything , people that are avoiding thieves are probaly avoiding you.
Don’t critisise if you have no clue what you’re on about.
90% of your post is ridiculous and wrong.

I think you missed the part that says “no support” along with your ability to not be an arrogant kitten.

Oh and my lame p/p build will mop the floor with your head any time, btw.

It’s not really Thief profession. It’s that Thief players probably more often build glass cannon on top of our naturally low HP. Thief can actually have some pretty high survivability. Most people I do fractal with who are glass cannon mode die RAPIDLY. I still wouldn’t mind some buffs towards our support style though.

Also, P/P doesn’t suck but it’s very situation. It’s better in a long-range fight against a single enemy cuz gravity hates cluster bomb.

Fun part being i wasn’t even critisizing d/d GC but i think i somewhat hit a painful subject or something that called for a hasty angry overdefensive answer /you’re-a-scrub-%stats-kitten-forumwarrior-flameon

You’ll mop the floor whit me .. in PvE , cute.
-Never said you’re critisizing D/D GC Thief .
What support do you exacly provide , Blinds and daze on trash mobs? Good for you .I forgot how critical is providing support with trash mobs is in a dungeon. And ’’exelent’’ dps vs single target.Like 3 times lower exelent DPS than D/D .Thats the mother of effective setup in dungeons.It must take a lot of skill to pull off.Please , teach me master.

first :

Don’t critisise if you have no clue what you’re on about.

Second, i’m already sensing too much arrogance to even take the time to try and educate you, have it your way, you know, follow the cool kids flow and forget about p/p as long as it stays underestimated it means i won’t get nerfed.

muscarine.5136:

I am running Crucible of Eternity a lot with my guildmates these days, and some particular rooms are shouting don’t enter if you’re a thief at you.

Especially the fights against subject alpha, where every time we go up against him, he decides there is no one else in the room but me, no matter how many times i reset, stealth, or even stop attacking, he will rush to me soon as he can see me, and avoiding his teeth of mordremoth is pretty hard considering you can’t always tell which direction he is facing with all the fx, and despite me running full acrobatics, endurance isn’t free.

You mentioned you’re using a P/P build? That’s your problem. I run CoE all the time on a Thief and Alpha is a cakewalk. I plan on recording a solo run on each version of his final battle at some point in the near future, when I upgrade my rig to handle the recording. S/D with Shadow Arts and Acro is essentially a free win against him, and that’s when he’s focusing on me 100% of the time.

I’d also be interested to know exactly what “support” P/P provides other than perhaps the ability to share the pitiful venoms on offer from range or spamming Headshot/Black Powder when available. I’ve had a few P/P thieves running with me in low level Fractals, and all I’ve got out of them is a hail of bullets that pepper targets for mediocre DPS and the occasional need to res them when they finally get targeted by a mob. They would be destroyed if they went with us on the 30+ dailies. If you got stuck in with blinds/dazes from S/D or D/D SA-heavy builds while laying down Smoke Screens and using other Deception skills effectively, or maybe ran S/P lifeleech and facetanked, or invested in Deadly Arts and used D/D or Shortbow to lay down consistent Weakness on big groups (Thieves are hands down the best at this), you would be multitudes more useful, and most likely doing more total damage in the process.

And those are worthless in the rest of the game.

I have 3100+ toughness on my thief run S/D +SB and have no issues in any of the dungeons, sometimes I have to face tank, sometimes I can get away with attacking from behind, it’s all about how you are specced and geared. I got all of my gear except legs from Karma and legs were from AC. Anyone can spec and gear for any situation. What you choose to do affects yourself. Have fun enjoy the game.

Thief is about damage dealing , no one does it better.Good at saving people ,preventing wipes , disabling traps , getting next the next wp’s whitout any dangers to the team , skipping trash, effectively making your run much faster.
And Support is overrated.Everyone is perfecly sustainable on their own just because the dungeons are just stupid easy.
FotM brought us a different dimension but Thief certainly has its uses in there aswel.Deffo not a proffesion issue.

NightyNight.1823:

Well genius , D/D GC IS the most efficient build available to Thief If played well

No, it really isn’t.

NightyNight.1823:

Thief is about damage dealing , no one does it better

This isn’t true either, it is an excelllent role to excel at, but the profession isn’t “about” it.

Auesis.7301:

muscarine.5136:

I am running Crucible of Eternity a lot with my guildmates these days, and some particular rooms are shouting don’t enter if you’re a thief at you.

Especially the fights against subject alpha, where every time we go up against him, he decides there is no one else in the room but me, no matter how many times i reset, stealth, or even stop attacking, he will rush to me soon as he can see me, and avoiding his teeth of mordremoth is pretty hard considering you can’t always tell which direction he is facing with all the fx, and despite me running full acrobatics, endurance isn’t free.

You mentioned you’re using a P/P build? That’s your problem. I run CoE all the time on a Thief and Alpha is a cakewalk. I plan on recording a solo run on each version of his final battle at some point in the near future, when I upgrade my rig to handle the recording. S/D with Shadow Arts and Acro is essentially a free win against him, and that’s when he’s focusing on me 100% of the time.

I’d also be interested to know exactly what “support” P/P provides other than perhaps the ability to share the pitiful venoms on offer from range or spamming Headshot/Black Powder when available. I’ve had a few P/P thieves running with me in low level Fractals, and all I’ve got out of them is a hail of bullets that pepper targets for mediocre DPS and the occasional need to res them when they finally get targeted by a mob. They would be destroyed if they went with us on the 30+ dailies. If you got stuck in with blinds/dazes from S/D or D/D SA-heavy builds while laying down Smoke Screens and using other Deception skills effectively, or maybe ran S/P lifeleech and facetanked, or invested in Deadly Arts and used D/D or Shortbow to lay down consistent Weakness on big groups (Thieves are hands down the best at this), you would be multitudes more useful, and most likely doing more total damage in the process.

I didn’t say i had problems, i said sometimes it can be hard which is sorta different, spamming headshot and BP “when available” is actually always available if properly used, support sharing is precisely the same as your regular d/d thief, nothing forces me 900m away from the fights, and i am also able to swtich to shortbow for proper aoe and weakness spam, you know.

Also, did you know you can drop BP where the action is, especially on stationnary mobs while creating a smoke field all my ranged teammates can use ?
Did you know i can use unload every 2 seconds for 5k to 9k damage depending on crits which i would hardly call pepper ?

It would take way too long to defend the advantages of using p/p, i’m fine with you sticking to your favorite weapon sets anyway.

…Anyway…

muscarine.5136:

I didn’t say i had problems, i said sometimes it can be hard which is sorta different, spamming headshot and BP “when available” is actually always available if properly used, support sharing is precisely the same as your regular d/d thief, nothing forces me 900m away from the fights, and i am also able to swtich to shortbow for proper aoe and weakness spam, you know.

Also, did you know you can drop BP where the action is, especially on stationnary mobs while creating a smoke field all my ranged teammates can use ?
Did you know i can use unload every 2 seconds for 5k to 9k damage depending on crits which i would hardly call pepper ?

It would take way too long to defend the advantages of using p/p, i’m fine with you sticking to your favorite weapon sets anyway.

…Anyway…

It might take “too long” to defend P/P, but I’m going to ask you to do it anyways, because I have a few problems with this build philosophy you’ve put out.

1. If your utility skills are always available then you’re dumping a lot of traits and/or skills into the initiative regen required to spam Unload while constantly staying at high initiative. This means you’re likely losing the First Strikes bonus and some other damage/utility to support having enough initiative for your damage source with enough banked for utility-on-demand. Even best case scenario and you do have that utility on demand without sacrificing damage, you still can’t spam Headshot like a more initiative-efficient build could.

2. If “nothing forces you 900m from the fights”, why are you using a weapon set whose only advantage over other weapons is being able to stay at range? P/P’s tiny area of expertise is doing what it does from range, if you’re not at range then the only reason to use it has gone out the window.

3. Unload does less damage than melee-based builds can do with less resources and effort. “Pepper” is subjective, but Unload does objectively less DPS than most thief DPS skills. In that light, while you may feel your numbers are relatively big, whatever they are they’d be bigger if you weren’t using Unload for mediocre DPS.

There is a viable reason to use P/P: When you don’t feel confident in your ability to survive via evasion and want to trade group utility and personal DPS for the personal safety of range. There is nothing wrong with that, anyone who uses, say, Valkyrie accessories instead of Berserker gear is making the same choice. I have all kinds of respect for people who use P/P for the right reasons, but you can’t proclaim that it is equally effective.

Tulisin.6945:

NightyNight.1823:

Well genius , D/D GC IS the most efficient build available to Thief If played well

No, it really isn’t.

NightyNight.1823:

Thief is about damage dealing , no one does it better

This isn’t true either, it is an excelllent role to excel at, but the profession isn’t “about” it.

I’m only talking about dungeons and anything else other than damage is not necesary.And yes thief excels best at that role.And D/D is the best DPS setup.Thats the only thing I meant.

muscarine.5136:

Auesis.7301:

muscarine.5136:

I am running Crucible of Eternity a lot with my guildmates these days, and some particular rooms are shouting don’t enter if you’re a thief at you.

Especially the fights against subject alpha, where every time we go up against him, he decides there is no one else in the room but me, no matter how many times i reset, stealth, or even stop attacking, he will rush to me soon as he can see me, and avoiding his teeth of mordremoth is pretty hard considering you can’t always tell which direction he is facing with all the fx, and despite me running full acrobatics, endurance isn’t free.

You mentioned you’re using a P/P build? That’s your problem. I run CoE all the time on a Thief and Alpha is a cakewalk. I plan on recording a solo run on each version of his final battle at some point in the near future, when I upgrade my rig to handle the recording. S/D with Shadow Arts and Acro is essentially a free win against him, and that’s when he’s focusing on me 100% of the time.

I’d also be interested to know exactly what “support” P/P provides other than perhaps the ability to share the pitiful venoms on offer from range or spamming Headshot/Black Powder when available. I’ve had a few P/P thieves running with me in low level Fractals, and all I’ve got out of them is a hail of bullets that pepper targets for mediocre DPS and the occasional need to res them when they finally get targeted by a mob. They would be destroyed if they went with us on the 30+ dailies. If you got stuck in with blinds/dazes from S/D or D/D SA-heavy builds while laying down Smoke Screens and using other Deception skills effectively, or maybe ran S/P lifeleech and facetanked, or invested in Deadly Arts and used D/D or Shortbow to lay down consistent Weakness on big groups (Thieves are hands down the best at this), you would be multitudes more useful, and most likely doing more total damage in the process.

I didn’t say i had problems, i said sometimes it can be hard which is sorta different, spamming headshot and BP “when available” is actually always available if properly used, support sharing is precisely the same as your regular d/d thief, nothing forces me 900m away from the fights, and i am also able to swtich to shortbow for proper aoe and weakness spam, you know.

Also, did you know you can drop BP where the action is, especially on stationnary mobs while creating a smoke field all my ranged teammates can use ?
Did you know i can use unload every 2 seconds for 5k to 9k damage depending on crits which i would hardly call pepper ?

It would take way too long to defend the advantages of using p/p, i’m fine with you sticking to your favorite weapon sets anyway.

…Anyway…

Shortbow has better DPS and its AOE .Better mobility which is what Thief is all about.Sure it requires you to be closer to the target but you’re just far enough to be safe.P/P exept certain situations is crap.

Tulisin.6945:

1. If your utility skills are always available then you’re dumping a lot of traits and/or skills into the initiative regen required to spam Unload while constantly staying at high initiative. This means you’re likely losing the First Strikes bonus and some other damage/utility to support having enough initiative for your damage source with enough banked for utility-on-demand. Even best case scenario and you do have that utility on demand without sacrificing damage, you still can’t spam Headshot like a more initiative-efficient build could.

I’m not losing first strikes benefit, only the first 1 or 2 shots from unload are done below 6 initiative. I’m not sacrificing damage for initiative, opportunist and quick recovery do the job perfectly, i’m just not spamming two unloads in a row like a d/d thief wouldn’t spam 2 C&D in a row, on the other hand i have a way better hit volume and can proc 2 opportunists per unload.
I’m running with agility sig, shadow refuge and shadowstep, i don’t think it’s that marginal ?
With a good sequence i use headshot every 2 vital shots and sometimes 3 if unlucky with the initiative procs.
I’m running with 30 acrobatics and i find many people overestimate the power of deadly arts when you can get almost as much from fluid strikes while maintaining a better survivability, positionning and initiative management.

I was a d/d GC sin since the release spending 99% of my time in HotM, i eventually grow bored of d/d burst and this is when i made my own p/p build, i know this set is so unpopular people won’t believe it’s any good, but it’s actually even better and more versatile than d/d, in my opinion.

2. If “nothing forces you 900m from the fights”, why are you using a weapon set whose only advantage over other weapons is being able to stay at range? P/P’s tiny area of expertise is doing what it does from range, if you’re not at range then the only reason to use it has gone out the window.

This is a common misconception, 900 range is not much like we all know (look at how many people asking for 1200 range) we aren’t long range with p/p, mid range at best but actually close range in most situations, range is absolutely not the only advantage with p/p, you benefit from range against opponents you know have a death area around them (players or mobs), except this you have the awesome and so incredibely underestimated BP, acrobatics mobility, proper use of shadowtep and such.
You are indeed losing dps compared to a melee build but with much better area control : you are still as effective from point blank to 900m range.

3. Unload does less damage than melee-based builds can do with less resources and effort. “Pepper” is subjective, but Unload does objectively less DPS than most thief DPS skills. In that light, while you may feel your numbers are relatively big, whatever they are they’d be bigger if you weren’t using Unload for mediocre DPS.

That is something i urge you to test, p/p is certainly less bursty, but by no means lacks in the dps department.

There is a viable reason to use P/P: When you don’t feel confident in your ability to survive via evasion and want to trade group utility and personal DPS for the personal safety of range. There is nothing wrong with that, anyone who uses, say, Valkyrie accessories instead of Berserker gear is making the same choice. I have all kinds of respect for people who use P/P for the right reasons, but you can’t proclaim that it is equally effective.

I’m sorry but you are only extending over your misconception of this weapon set, you don’t sacrifice group utility, and as for personnal dps i’m not losing anything more than a d/d sin who’s actually bringing some group utility too.
I have less burst, slightly less short term dps, better sustained dps, better versatility, and in my opinion, better group support.

Could you clarify exactly what your group support is? I’m not trying to belittle you, I’m just genuinely not seeing it.

muscarine.5136:

I’m not losing first strikes benefit, only the first 1 or 2 shots from unload are done below 6 initiative. I’m not sacrificing damage for initiative, opportunist and quick recovery do the job perfectly, i’m just not spamming two unloads in a row like a d/d thief wouldn’t spam 2 C&D in a row, on the other hand i have a way better hit volume and can proc 2 opportunists per unload.
I’m running with agility sig, shadow refuge and shadowstep, i don’t think it’s that marginal ?
With a good sequence i use headshot every 2 vital shots and sometimes 3 if unlucky with the initiative procs.
I’m running with 30 acrobatics and i find many people overestimate the power of deadly arts when you can get almost as much from fluid strikes while maintaining a better survivability, positionning and initiative management.

I was a d/d GC sin since the release spending 99% of my time in HotM, i eventually grow bored of d/d burst and this is when i made my own p/p build, i know this set is so unpopular people won’t believe it’s any good, but it’s actually even better and more versatile than d/d, in my opinion.

There’s an opportunity cost in taking Quick Recovery, a trait you need to sustain your play style that other play styles don’t require. If you aren’t spamming Unload, as you say, then your DPS is far below most builds. Constant Unload spam is marginally worse than most builds, the second you start using Vital Shot you’re way behind. The idea of “every 2 to 3 vital shots” itself means that you aren’t even really in a DPS role anymore, you’re playing support. With this particular implementation of P/P you’re sacrificing tons of DPS but can at least use Headshot. However, D/P or S/P could sustain much much higher DPS and use Headshot far more often.

This is a common misconception, 900 range is not much like we all know (look at how many people asking for 1200 range) we aren’t long range with p/p, mid range at best but actually close range in most situations, range is absolutely not the only advantage with p/p, you benefit from range against opponents you know have a death area around them (players or mobs), except this you have the awesome and so incredibely underestimated BP, acrobatics mobility, proper use of shadowtep and such.
You are indeed losing dps compared to a melee build but with much better area control : you are still as effective from point blank to 900m range.

The problem is that P/P is one of the worst builds for dictating range and mobility. Damage can be applied over a wider range, but you sacrifice both the damage and the ability to easily change ranges for that asset. It is one of P/P’s few assets, but you’re trading effectiveness in every area for it.

That is something i urge you to test, p/p is certainly less bursty, but by no means lacks in the dps department.

Having tested it extensively: Unload does less DPS at every timeframe than either of the melee auto attacks. Dagger also has the option to burst, while sword has AE and useful condition application. Bursty, sustained, whatever, if an ability has less DPS it has less DPS than auto attack it is never going to catch up.

I’m sorry but you are only extending over your misconception of this weapon set, you don’t sacrifice group utility, and as for personnal dps i’m not losing anything more than a d/d sin who’s actually bringing some group utility too.
I have less burst, slightly less short term dps, better sustained dps, better versatility, and in my opinion, better group support.

You have less burst, less sustained DPS, less versatility (more initiative reliant DPS), and less ability to dictate range. All of your group support comes from sources that would be better used in the hands of a different weapon set.

For bonus points, you can’t benefit from Skale Venom consumables, a great source of utility that pistol attacks can’t use.

I can’t argue against such subjective arguments, you act as if a melee thief will always be dpsing his target no matter what, yea sure, if you are dpsing passive golems in HotM you clearly get a better dps out of any melee weapon set over p/p, but that’s just a pointless argument…

All in all i’m not wasting my breath on this anymore, honestly i really don’t even care to prove you guys you’re way underastimating p/p, as long as i’m having results with it myself.

muscarine.5136:

All in all i’m not wasting my breath on this anymore, honestly i really don’t even care to prove you guys you’re way underastimating p/p, as long as i’m having results with it myself.

You can have results without it being a good weapon set. There’s nothing wrong with using P/P, and I respect anyone who does it because they enjoy the style of it or because they want the safety of range.

The only problem is proclaiming that it has competitive damage or utility. It doesn’t, that is what you trade away so you can stay at range and have an easier time surviving.

In the context of this thread, a bad P/P thief is going to make thieves look less bad to the community than a bad thief with another weapon set, simply because they’ll spend less time on the ground. To that end, I actively encourage those who don’t think they can survive with a more powerful build to pursue P/P in group situations. I’ll take someone impotently chaining Vital Shot and Unload into a target and staying alive a whole fight over a D/D thief that goes down after each back stab any day.

because i can’t join parties with my thief and all ppl want are guardians OR warriors, i decided to (emo) quit for some time until my class is wanted in dungeon/fractal partys !!!

You’re better off avoiding those groups demanding a pug guardian or warrior in 20+; the vast majority of pug guardians and warriors I’ve gotten in that range have sat back with a rifle / longbow / scepter the entire run and were substantially worse than a necro/mes/ele I could have gotten.

None of that says you should take a P/P thief though. Even if they’re an excellent player, I’d rather put that player on any other class in the game, as they’d be more effective (with the possible exception of scepter guardian in a damage role).

Dee Jay.2460:

Thieves really aren’t particularly attractive group mates. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do all the content.

But looking at support, just compare the effectiveness of our only real support abilities Shadow Refuge and Smoke Screen with the entire arsenal of a Guardian, the combo fields of an Elementalist or the Shouts of a Warrior.

Thieves seem to be designed in a very “selfish” fashion. Even if we want to build for support our tool-set is very limited.

Add to that that Thieves are probably your most frequently “downed” class in PvE and I get why people would skip them.

Except S/P tank builds. I out facetank guardians with it lol.

Tulisin.6945:

Rainu.6871:

I think a large part of the problem is how many bad thief players there are.

This isn’t really fair. There are an equal amount of bad thieves as any other profession, the difference is that bad thieves can’t get away with it.

Wisest thing said in thread.

I wish i could track my revives by which class I’ve done it to the most because it’s not even close.

I personally don’t like having a thief in my group unless i know them. I leveled to 20 with a 3 thief group and we had no issues while murdering everything. When i get a pug thief, i spend the majority of my time rezzing them.

While yes it’s a personal skill issue, it’s also a pretty large class balance issue. Speaking of Fractals of course. Nothing even comes close to a party with guardians or warriors as far as efficiency and ease.

Ensign.2189:

You’re better off avoiding those groups demanding a pug guardian or warrior in 20+; the vast majority of pug guardians and warriors I’ve gotten in that range have sat back with a rifle / longbow / scepter the entire run and were substantially worse than a necro/mes/ele I could have gotten.

None of that says you should take a P/P thief though. Even if they’re an excellent player, I’d rather put that player on any other class in the game, as they’d be more effective (with the possible exception of scepter guardian in a damage role).

an pug warrior with rifle , with proper traits will outdamage any other class sir on single target. my volley hit for 7000 damage on bosses in dungeons , while my Hb from greatsword hit 11000 and is considered top damage skill. that is without any rifle specific build.
an pug guardian with scepter / focus is the best tank , for your information
or what you espect ? greatsword tank guardian ? hammer vs bosses , sir please ….
he will imobilize single target , aoe it while he can dodge or move away and buff all party memebers with regeneration.
Fact is that guardians , elementarists and warriors are most efficient classes in dungeons. That doesen’t mean you will not find good thieves, but only on high lvl fractals.
excuse me cause i don’t share your oppinion but i , as rest of 98 % of population prefer an pug guardian /warrior in exchange of an pug thief