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Posted by: bobross.5034

bobross.5034

A thief that traits/gears for pure defense will have higher armor than a warrior that traits/gears for pure offense.

A thief that traits/gears for pure offense will have lower armor than a warrior that traits/gears for pure offense.

Meanwhile, a warrior that traits/gears for pure defense will have higher armor than a thief that traits/gears for pure defense, due to the innate bonus from heavy armor.

It’s not a difficult concept to grasp. You’re attempting to apply RP/classic trinity rules to a system that prioritizes player choice over predetermined class roles, or at least tries to. A player that chooses to gear themselves defensively should have higher defensive stats than a player that chooses to gear offensively, regardless of armor class.

wich in turn makes armor classes useless to have overall.

just give us all.. “armor”.

They hate trinity.. dps – healing – tank speciality.
And yet they have classes to fullfill those criterias…

And since they dont want trinity, but still balance for it…
The game gets imbalanced. (pretty logical).

And the result is people gets kitten ed of.

A-net should realy make up their mind.

Heavy armor vs light armor or even medium.
heavy armor should always win in naturaly higher defense..
no matter how you gear the other two.
This is pure logic… trinity or not.

That is pure logic but you are ignoring very important things specific to the real world as well as this setting.

1) Heavy armor protects more than medium armor. This is true. But heavy armor was not always desirable in warfare. Heavy armor is heavy, and without cavalry, it would wear out armies and force them to march slower. Medium armor allowed for much more mobility, and didn’t fatigue the wearer as much. Neither of these are really modeled in the game, so making drastic differences between the two in terms of protection don’t matter as much.

2) This game assumes that magic is real. This really matters, because weapons and armors are imbued with magical inscriptions and runes and sigils that either add to the weapon’s ability to pierce armor, or armor’s ability to absorb damage as well as other things. Because of this, it is possible to imbue cloth armor with powerful magic that makes it more protective than steel. Yet steel being sturdier, can still be imbued with similar magic, and wind up more protective still.

It is pure logic…this game is set in a magical world, therefore magic rules apply, and armor/weapon material is not the sum total of the damage that a single warrior can absorb or receive.

Also, in the real physical world, in a fight with a heavily armored knight, a knife could one hit kill the knight, especially if that knight was not paying attention. There are many important and vulnerable parts of the body that only really need one good cut to completely kill a person. If someone armed with a stilleto managed to sneak up on a knight in armor, they could probably easily get through one of the many weak points in the armor and kill the knight in one hit. Armor helped prevent that in the chaos of battle, but in real battle, a hit either kills you, or wounds you, or it doesn’t. It doesn’t “do damage” and let you keep fighting as if nothing has happened until you take enough damage to die. That’s video game logic…so please stop trying to apply flawed and inaccurate logic based in the real world to a video game set in a magical world.

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Posted by: Azraeel.1238

Azraeel.1238

@eldain stenlund.4306, are you seriously arguing that? You sound like a little girl that is jealous because she doesn’t know how to make her dolly as beautiful as her friend’s doll.

You want to talk logic? Let’s do this!!
1- A slash to the neck, should instantly kill you by beheading you!
2- Fighting necromancers should barely last as they suck your life force away.
3- No such thing as respawn. Once you are dead, game over.
4- Women carrying big swords and fighting just as good as buffed up men? Yeah right…
5- Asura as a guardian or warrior tank? lol….

And the list could go on and on…

This is a game, and if a thief has 30 in SA (toughness) and you have none, his armor is better than yours. Think of it as mental training, where he learns to endure pain better. Satisfied?
Now how can a dagger pierce your armor? Other than the fact that daggers are not your average knives, every set of armor has weak points, otherwise you won’t be able to move your joints. Every assassin learns to target weak points instead of going berserk “I HULK I SMASH”…

80 Necromancer (Main) | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 80 Warrior
Engineer and Elementalist in progress…

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

I have never said i want warriors to be able to have more burst…

But you say thieves burst is OP. Thieves have a marginally better burst than warr; it isnt really much higher.

Do i want my heavy armor to actually be WORKING as a heavy armor. yes.

Heavy armor gives +200 armor over medium. Thats 200 stat points, or 20/30 trait points. Its quite a bit! Also, those are “free”. Of course, if you go full berserk, any class with soldiers or knights gear is gonna have more armor than you. But thats because you CHOSE to go glass cannon.

Having a berserker warr with more armor than a knights thief would be stupid; think about it, why would ANYONE use anything thats not berserker then?

Do i want to see a fix to thieves op stealth and backstabs. yes.

Thieves backstab is not that OP. My glass cannon guardian can teleport into a group of (non skilled) non-bunker players and drop them all in the time a thief drops one.
I downed 3-4 persons in under 2 seconds more than once!
Just save yourselves, focus 5, sword 2, f1, weapon swap, gs 2 (4 if they dodge, then 5-5-3 ). Thats pretty much it, if anyones still standing just judge to him and finish.
Of course, this does not work against skilled players, but then again, BS spam doesnt either (i.e: thief vs guard… backstab is blocked by aegis, everyone dodges / blinds, if thief got caught by gs5 or doesnt run away hes instagibbed.

the 100crap doing marginaly the same burst as a thief ??
umm it have a 40 second internal CD on frenzy.. and a nother 40 second CD to get the stun you need to actually hit anything.

And when you face a warrior using a GS, you know he is going to try it, because you can see him from the start.

This still doesnt justify 100crap skill to have the burst.

Its kinda much harder to see an invisible thief…

sorry.. my warrior doesnt have Aegis to autoblock the first stealth attack.
nor do i have protection, or much other boons either but might.

and about the armor… once again… doesnt matter if you call it zerker or knight…
metal is metal… leather is leather…
heavy is heavy… light is light…

GW2 is about singularity.
kill them faster than they can kill you.

and its a bad way to follow.

Yep your Warrior doesnt have aegis to autoblock, you have only pasive 4sec and active 4sec Endure Pain for 8 sec imute to DMG, shield stance 3 sec block etc, Warrior so weak sorry =(

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Seed.5467

Seed.5467

Yep your Warrior doesnt have aegis to autoblock, you have only pasive 4sec and active 4sec Endure Pain for 8 sec imute to DMG, shield stance 3 sec block etc, Warrior so weak sorry =(

Yes. In theory, but you seem to forget the 90sec cooldown on Endure Pain, and the 30sec cooldown on shield stance.

Regards

Seed

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Yep your Warrior doesnt have aegis to autoblock, you have only pasive 4sec and active 4sec Endure Pain for 8 sec imute to DMG, shield stance 3 sec block etc, Warrior so weak sorry =(

Yes. In theory, but you seem to forget the 90sec cooldown on Endure Pain, and the 30sec cooldown on shield stance.

Regards

Seed

How long do you think the Thief would survive against Warrior ? : D Warrior have best DPS in this game,HP poll ,armor,many controls ,11sec imunite vs direct DMG and fast mobility.
What would you want ? Button on the /kill all playrs within a radius 50 meters ?

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

(edited by Evilek.5690)

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Posted by: Grounder.7381

Grounder.7381

Yep your Warrior doesnt have aegis to autoblock, you have only pasive 4sec and active 4sec Endure Pain for 8 sec imute to DMG, shield stance 3 sec block etc, Warrior so weak sorry =(

Yes. In theory, but you seem to forget the 90sec cooldown on Endure Pain, and the 30sec cooldown on shield stance.

Regards

Seed

How long do you think the Thief would survive against Warrior ? : D Warrior have best DPS in this game,HP poll ,armor,many controls ,11sec imunite vs direct DMG and fast mobility.
What would you want ? Button on the /kill all playrs within a radius 50 meters ?

1.kill fast! if the warrior dont go glass cannon, he won’t have enough dmg to kill you anyway,.
2. blind. most control you’re talking about are just hammer skills, or a utility which has a huge cooldown.
3. stealth. disengage and heal to full health before harassing again.
4. bait. wait for those skill to be used. chances are,.. he’s vulnarable without recovery, after.
endure pain has 90 sec cd. and cost a utility slot that could be a condition removal, stability, or a combo starter.. its REALLY bad!!
defy pain has a 90 sec internal cooldown!! it activates after an attack that reduce its health to bellow 25%… so a backstab for 15k will kill it without activating this trait. and you get to choose to activate it or not.. and its a frikkin grandmaster trait!!!
shield stance activates for 3 seconds and has a 30 sec cooldown!! if equiping a gigantic board isn’t enough for a hint to bait it out,.. i don’t know what will..

honestly..I doubt you’re having trouble with warrior on your thief..
you just want to look as weak as possible, to protect your class..
(well yea, no-one likes a nerf)
most thief eat warrior alive @ wvw. only skilled warrior can defeat a bad thief..

while you got stealth to disengage. recover your initiative without being seen.. warrior is a bare target for you to kill.. when most cooldown is down.

you got your homing, teleport, stealth to deliver your damage, to easily hit its target.
warrior must aim manually most of the time. with slow and clunky animation.

while toughness and vitality goes a long way for a thief.. because they have the tool to outlast the battle..
warrior only have itself.. and when most damage mitigation is on cooldown, it gets bursted pretty fast.. and heavy armor is useless to protect itself.. when it has no more block, protection, regen, stealth, auto condition cleansing, or even invulnerability.

(edited by Grounder.7381)

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Posted by: Seed.5467

Seed.5467

How long do you think the Thief would survive against Warrior ? : D

That depends, of the player who plays the thief, and their build they are running.

Warrior have best DPS in this game,

Yes, Warriors have the best raw damage,

HP poll ,armor,

Yes, thats the reason why you do not see thiefs, eles, guardians, Engis……Oh wait…

many controls ,

Which are clunky, slow, telegraphed, and have long cooldowns(Bulls).

11sec imunite vs direct DMG

Actually, that would be 4 sec immune to direct damage on a 90sec Cooldown from a stance. And 3sec of blocking on a 30sec cooldown from a shield. All in all,you have 7 sec of immunity on direct damage on a 120sec cooldown. That will not save you from conditions. You will be down before you have the chance to use them.

and fast mobility.

Are you telling me, that a warrior is the best in terms of mobiliy, against an Ele and a Thief ?

What would you want ?

For starters, better sustainability, and reduced cooldowns on skills, for the warrior. As for the thief, the only way to fix them, is by removing Stealth-stacking, and adding some small cooldowns to avoid extreme spamming of skills.
At the end it doesn´t matter what i want. What´s matter is what the Devs are doing.

Button on the /kill all playrs within a radius 50 meters ?

No, thats the role of the Eles and Mesmers

Regards

Seed

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Yep your Warrior doesnt have aegis to autoblock, you have only pasive 4sec and active 4sec Endure Pain for 8 sec imute to DMG, shield stance 3 sec block etc, Warrior so weak sorry =(

Yes. In theory, but you seem to forget the 90sec cooldown on Endure Pain, and the 30sec cooldown on shield stance.

Regards

Seed

How long do you think the Thief would survive against Warrior ? : D Warrior have best DPS in this game,HP poll ,armor,many controls ,11sec imunite vs direct DMG and fast mobility.
What would you want ? Button on the /kill all playrs within a radius 50 meters ?

1.kill fast! if the warrior dont go glass cannon, he won’t have enough dmg to kill you anyway,.
2. blind. most control you’re talking about are just hammer skills, or a utility which has a huge cooldown.
3. stealth. disengage and heal to full health before harassing again.
4. bait. wait for those skill to be used. chances are,.. he’s vulnarable without recovery, after.
endure pain has 90 sec cd. and cost a utility slot that could be a condition removal, stability, or a combo starter.. its REALLY bad!!
defy pain has a 90 sec internal cooldown!! it activates after an attack that reduce its health to bellow 25%… so a backstab for 15k will kill it without activating this trait. and you get to choose to activate it or not.. and its a frikkin grandmaster trait!!!
shield stance activates for 3 seconds and has a 30 sec cooldown!! if equiping a gigantic board isn’t enough for a hint to bait it out,.. i don’t know what will..

honestly..I doubt you’re having trouble with warrior on your thief..
you just want to look as weak as possible, to protect your class..
(well yea, no-one likes a nerf)
most thief eat warrior alive @ wvw. only skilled warrior can defeat a bad thief..

while you got stealth to disengage. recover your initiative without being seen.. warrior is a bare target for you to kill.. when most cooldown is down.

you got your homing, teleport, stealth to deliver your damage, to easily hit its target.
warrior must aim manually most of the time. with slow and clunky animation.

while toughness and vitality goes a long way for a thief.. because they have the tool to outlast the battle..
warrior only have itself.. and when most damage mitigation is on cooldown, it gets bursted pretty fast.. and heavy armor is useless to protect itself.. when it has no more block, protection, regen, stealth, auto condition cleansing, or even invulnerability.

I wonder where the meetings are taking this absurd numbers 15k BS ?? Really ??

15000 DMG / 2 (100% critikal DMG) = 7500 / 1,25(25% increase DMG Thief traits) = 6000 DMG * 2500 (target armor) = 15m / 2,4 (BS coe) / 981 (Dagger DMG) = 6371 POWER !! vs 1500 target armor = 3822 POWER !!

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Fade.7658

Fade.7658

The OP’s head would explode if he knew how much toughness thieves could actually get.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|a.1b.0.8.1b.0|0.0.0.0.0.0|1f.7m.1f.7m.1f.7m.1f.7m.1f.7m.1f.7m|2x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2w.0|0.0.u000.u000.a0|44.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

Not a build I’d run, but it would work. (add 250 condition damage for sigil of corruption) I didn’t flesh it out, as there’s no point, but more to show that any class can attain high levels of toughness.

If the OP can’t understand that 2.5K armor is glass cannon territory, then it’s a waste of time trying to educate him. I don’t run anything less than ~2800 armor on ANY build I run, whether it’s direct damage or condition. I may not put out the numbers glass cannons do, but I won’t get dropped like a bad habit, like the OP.

3273 armor
1587 condition damage
Health is ok

Edit: My bunker ranger, which is also medium armor, can hit close to 3.4K armor if he wanted to with sigil of stone.

And again to try to drive home the point to the OP: Toughness doesn’t scale even remotely as well as power does. This means point for point, power will give more damage than toughness will gain damage reduction.

Not gonna bother further trying to educate either a troll, or someone who can’t or won’t listen to others.

(edited by Fade.7658)

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

How long do you think the Thief would survive against Warrior ? : D

That depends, of the player who plays the thief, and their build they are running.

Warrior have best DPS in this game,

Yes, Warriors have the best raw damage,

HP poll ,armor,

Yes, thats the reason why you do not see thiefs, eles, guardians, Engis……Oh wait…

many controls ,

Which are clunky, slow, telegraphed, and have long cooldowns(Bulls).

11sec imunite vs direct DMG

Actually, that would be 4 sec immune to direct damage on a 90sec Cooldown from a stance. And 3sec of blocking on a 30sec cooldown from a shield. All in all,you have 7 sec of immunity on direct damage on a 120sec cooldown. That will not save you from conditions. You will be down before you have the chance to use them.

and fast mobility.

Are you telling me, that a warrior is the best in terms of mobiliy, against an Ele and a Thief ?

What would you want ?

For starters, better sustainability, and reduced cooldowns on skills, for the warrior. As for the thief, the only way to fix them, is by removing Stealth-stacking, and adding some small cooldowns to avoid extreme spamming of skills.
At the end it doesn´t matter what i want. What´s matter is what the Devs are doing.

Button on the /kill all playrs within a radius 50 meters ?

No, thats the role of the Eles and Mesmers

Regards

Seed

http://www.twitch.tv/tehmaker/c/2338059 Show and learn to play

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Seed.5467

Seed.5467

Lol at EB jumping puzzle speed run video. Do not know if you trolling or being serious.

Regards

Seed

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Lol at EB jumping puzzle speed run video. Do not know if you trolling or being serious.

Regards

Seed

Warrior is faster than a thief to the facts. And with that, unfortunately nothing you can do about it

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Wonderer.1790

Wonderer.1790

This is like the biggest, learn to deal with how they balance the game issue, ever.

80 Thief, 80 Warrior, working on Mesmer.

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Posted by: eldain stenlund.4306

eldain stenlund.4306


I wonder where the meetings are taking this absurd numbers 15k BS ?? Really ??

15000 DMG / 2 (100% critikal DMG) = 7500 / 1,25(25% increase DMG Thief traits) = 6000 DMG * 2500 (target armor) = 15m / 2,4 (BS coe) / 981 (Dagger DMG) = 6371 POWER !! vs 1500 target armor = 3822 POWER !!
—————-

please check here for yourself.. pictures and videos of even higher numbers
against warriors and engineers… its not even light armors…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-Backstab-Picture/first

So obviously the meetings are taking place at A-net balance room, and they accept it.

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690


I wonder where the meetings are taking this absurd numbers 15k BS ?? Really ??

15000 DMG / 2 (100% critikal DMG) = 7500 / 1,25(25% increase DMG Thief traits) = 6000 DMG * 2500 (target armor) = 15m / 2,4 (BS coe) / 981 (Dagger DMG) = 6371 POWER !! vs 1500 target armor = 3822 POWER !!
—————-

please check here for yourself.. pictures and videos of even higher numbers
against warriors and engineers… its not even light armors…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-Backstab-Picture/first

So obviously the meetings are taking place at A-net balance room, and they accept it.

Do you know the skill-known as Frenzy and Elixir U ? =)
Use http://wiki.guildwars2.com/ for more information.

From your post implies that absolutely do not know the mechanics of this game, therefore your arguments are irrelevant
Next time you verify your facts before you write something

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

(edited by Evilek.5690)

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Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

you have 1200 toughness

less then 2500 armor..

that is why you’re getting hit hard.

Don’t get me wrong, berserker thieves are going to hit you hard…But you’re getting crushed because you’re glass cannon just the same.

You need to get off the notion that just because you’re in heavy armor..It means you’re impossible to kill

If you get tanky, you still die. just takes 4 seconds instead of 2.
But you cant do crap against thief either in tank… so your just becoming a free kill.

Heavy armor should have naturaly High physical resist.
Have you ever tried to use a knife against a plate armor ?? i have, just for the fun of it.
And trust me.. i didnt even dent the kitten crap when i stabbed it or slized at it.

Heavy armor… is the totaly Anti knife armor. hell its even anti sword to some degree.

If you want a similar test.. just take a 2 mm thick metal sheet… then take a knife.. and stabb away all you like.. you never gonna hurt the metal.

No, I never had a chance to stab plate armor with a Knife

I was to busy you see casting Fireballs at it.

Oh and this one time I had my 5 foot Drake Shoot a Swarm of Insects at it to see how it did.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos

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Posted by: Demeter Aurion.7381

Demeter Aurion.7381

To the OP, try playing a thief. I get steamrolled constantly.

Demeter (Thief)
[RMNT] Maguuma

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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092


If you want a similar test.. just take a 2 mm thick metal sheet… then take a knife.. and stabb away all you like.. you never gonna hurt the metal.

No, I never had a chance to stab plate armor with a Knife

I was to busy you see casting Fireballs at it.

Oh and this one time I had my 5 foot Drake Shoot a Swarm of Insects at it to see how it did.

You might have been too subtle here.

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Posted by: bobross.5034

bobross.5034

so now I am confused…what is this post even about?
Is it a debate on fashion?
Is it about damage output?

I’m kind of feeling like this could all be summed up here:
“warrior smash everyfing!”
“ouch!”
“Thief op’d”

we know how this plays out right?

No they’re not….here’s why…
Yes they are!
No they’re not….
jumping puzzle video!

I already had a post deleted because it responded to something here that was deleted…I think we should just let this rest. We all know that only smart people play warriors, so we clearly have been outsmarted by the clever warrior. Let’s just vanish in a puff of smoke….nothing to see here. Nothing at all…