Guild Wars 2

here is what i theorycraft for the new patch for group play
so i share 870 healing power and max 2100 condi dmg and 10 might stacks with group
so my group can focus on power state

but i must be very oriented to my location so i wont get burst down with no messure to escape beside cnd

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZMQNAqYVnMJSTTW0EeNB/TmImQ4e3veedW7GLCA-TByCABAcIAq4MA8i+ACVCylyPh2fwH1fm4BAQKAYmDA-e

I assume this is for PvE/dungeons?

From what I’ve understood venoms will work like the Ranger’s Water Spirit; it will use your Condition Damage if it’s higher than you allies, otherwise they’ll use their own Condition Damage stat.
So you don’t “share” your 2100 Condition Damage with them, the venoms’ damage simply isn’t reduced for your allies.

Sry I didn’t mention it
For wvw group play
And as you mention the group will go power base so they will get my condition state

I wouldn’t use the heal venom, I think it makes you too vulnerable and isn’t that useful. Use hide in shadows instead, and just go full dire instead of some healing power gear.

the venomshare change is actually pretty crappy, because only one venom has a (good) damaging condition, and unless you sacrifice a lot of everything, leeching venoms will still be pretty crappy.

>>the venomshare change is actually pretty crappy, because only one venom has a (good) damaging condition, and unless you sacrifice a lot of everything, leeching venoms will still be pretty crappy.

You can NOT just look at raw damage.

Take devourer venom alone.

5 people being able to apply a 2 second min immob 3 times each allows any one of them to immobilize an opponent for 6 seconds.

Added to that the is more damage through leech and heal.

An opponent that is immobilized is more susceptible to a multitude of other attacks.

babazhook.6805:

>>the venomshare change is actually pretty crappy, because only one venom has a (good) damaging condition, and unless you sacrifice a lot of everything, leeching venoms will still be pretty crappy.

You can NOT just look at raw damage.

Take devourer venom alone.

5 people being able to apply a 2 second min immob 3 times each allows any one of them to immobilize an opponent for 6 seconds.

Added to that the is more damage through leech and heal.

An opponent that is immobilized is more susceptible to a multitude of other attacks.

i’m not disputing that. i’m saying that the change they’re implementing to venomous aura doesn’t really make any big difference (and yet back when it was announced, people thought it would be a huge deal). the argument is “the condition damage is weak when you share”, ignoring the fact that venoms aren’t used in condi builds to begin with, because they’re utility conditions, not damage.

if venoms are “almost there”, applying my condition damage to immobilize, petrify, and poison won’t make any difference, because 2 out of those conditions don’t deal damage, and the other ticks for negligible damage and is only used for denying heals.

it just kittenes me off that the balance team can’t see the real problem with venoms, and actually thinks this change will make them viable (that’s what they said, for crying out loud)

>>i’m not disputing that. i’m saying that the change they’re implementing to venomous aura doesn’t really make any big difference (and yet back when it was announced, people thought it would be a huge deal). the argument is “the condition damage is weak when you share”, ignoring the fact that venoms aren’t used in condi builds to begin with, because they’re utility conditions, not damage.

Understood. For the most part I concur.

However, that said, does the effects shared with members of the group apply to the DURATIONS as well?

If my thief has a 100 percent condition duration and I share devourer’s venom among 5 others then if they all get that added duration it is significant.

It becomes 15 strikes of 4 seconds each.

Ice drake becomes 20 strikes of a 2 second chill rather then a 1 second chill.

Now when these are stacked along with Venomous strength and that heal and are focused on one or two opponents, it a death sentence.

Do people completely forget the power aspect of venom share (leeching venoms)?

Venoms are NOT strictly for condition builds, they are a majority utility (poison is for healing reduction). Sure your condition damage will be meh translated to 5 sources of skale venom but your condition duration will apply to DV, your power/healing power will apply to leeching venoms. It doesn’t solve venoms to the slightest but people keep looking at venoms like they are meant to fill your enemy up with DoT when that isn’t their intention. Just look at the conditions they do apply and you will see.

ppl you forget few things:

condition duration wont be share

immobilize is cap at 9 stacks and dont need condition dmg (dont forget ranger will have thier elite in 48 sec duration instead of 120 so more CC is coming to the game)

poison is for the 6 hit with leeching venom so your heal will be around 3k with (healing power) to every ppl in your party so they can burst more freely

torment stacks can be devastating above 8

sklelk venom can heal you party for 1.3k every hit for kittens to 5 more ppl so its another good healing source while bursting

this is why i mix healing power for leeching venom

the enemies will need to time their cleanse as if rotate the condition burst right the enemy group can find them without cleanse rdy (not in zerg rather in 20 group fight)

sure it make the thief more vulnerable but more as utilitis bot (like mesmer in group fight with viel)

This change is huge From all the things listed on that post, this one has the potential to be the most broken that will come in the feature patch. In the PVP perspective, the new Venom Thief will be equivalent as at least 3 condition specced members, since they don’t need to trait for condition damage to melt someone, anymore…

Asomal.6453:

This change is huge From all the things listed on that post, this one has the potential to be the most broken that will come in the feature patch. In the PVP perspective, the new Venom Thief will be equivalent as at least 3 condition specced members, since they don’t need to trait for condition damage to melt someone, anymore…

oh yeah, let my healing, my chill, my immobilize, my poison and my petrify tick for high amounts of condition damage… ohwait.

you are as clueless about what thief venoms are as the devs.

Yeah, it amazes me that they don’t understand their own design. Its as if the thief designers were fired after the Q.Q hit the forums and since then they have just been guessing. None of the thief changes are great but hey, at least they didn’t break us

babazhook.6805:

>>i’m not disputing that. i’m saying that the change they’re implementing to venomous aura doesn’t really make any big difference (and yet back when it was announced, people thought it would be a huge deal). the argument is “the condition damage is weak when you share”, ignoring the fact that venoms aren’t used in condi builds to begin with, because they’re utility conditions, not damage.

Understood. For the most part I concur.

However, that said, does the effects shared with members of the group apply to the DURATIONS as well?

If my thief has a 100 percent condition duration and I share devourer’s venom among 5 others then if they all get that added duration it is significant.

It becomes 15 strikes of 4 seconds each.

Ice drake becomes 20 strikes of a 2 second chill rather then a 1 second chill.

Now when these are stacked along with Venomous strength and that heal and are focused on one or two opponents, it a death sentence.

in wvwvw tell me 1 profession that can take 20strikes and live.

what good is 20 strikes with chill or 15 with poison?! if you and your friends land 2 strikes each all its left is to stomp…

>>what good is 20 strikes with chill or 15 with poison?! if you and your friends land 2 strikes each all its left is to stomp…

I take it you have never fought in a battle with more then one enemy?

My wording was poor but DO try the aura in wVw. There are more enemies one and more in your own group that one is not sharing with.

Party of ten meets party of ten. Prior to entering battle they stack venom /might share.

Your party of ten now has 5 people with extra cc control. You do not have to use all on one. Do a cleave and 3 enemies now chilled / immobilized /poisoned. Your other 5 (those without the share)clean up focusing on the cripples . Move on to the next. YOU do not have to do the stomp. You and your team help spread the cc. If I am in a keep battle and see two of my team chasing down another that is faster I will often hit that fleeing person with an immob and move on trusting the other two to do their job and finish him.

I have used venom share in WvW and it can really help melt the other team. The hardest part is getting a second application on 5 people as the battle goes on. That initial full use of it however, can swing a battle in your teams favor early in the fight.

Now back to your point. Are you suggesting it does not help a team to have more sources of chill/poison/immob without having to make a single change on their utility bar? This along with a source of heal and more direct damage? Look at any class and the number of skills on a weapon tool bar that focus on CC or poison. Outside the thief those all go on cooldown. Do you not think having more of the same that can be used 2 or three times in a row is not useful?

If I see a guardian trying to use Chains of light on me I might dodge that. Now what do i do if he has three other immobs?

NinjaEd.3946:

Yeah, it amazes me that they don’t understand their own design. Its as if the thief designers were fired after the Q.Q hit the forums and since then they have just been guessing. None of the thief changes are great but hey, at least they didn’t break us

is this what we’ve come to? praying we don’t get our class broken, instead of hoping for cool changes? :/

babazhook.6805:

snip

venom aura only works on a tight, coordinated party of 5 against a similarly sized group (any smaller and you should be ashamed of losing, venom share or not). even then, only very specific venoms, incidentally the same venoms that won’t see any difference from the current changes.

and “gank the thief” is always a priority on a teamfight, and guess what happens when your thief has no stealth, stunbreak, or evade?

and please don’t forget there’s a cap of 5 stacks at a time for most duration conditions, 3 for immobilize (IIRC). so if your whole team uses devourer venom at once on the same guy, you just wasted your venoms.

PS: and you missed my sarcasm there. i’m saying that adding condi damage to utilities that don’t use condi damage in the first place is useless.

BrunoBRS.5178:

NinjaEd.3946:

Yeah, it amazes me that they don’t understand their own design. Its as if the thief designers were fired after the Q.Q hit the forums and since then they have just been guessing. None of the thief changes are great but hey, at least they didn’t break us

is this what we’ve come to? praying we don’t get our class broken, instead of hoping for cool changes? :/

Unfortunately, yes. The coolest changes that we can ever hope for is no change at all. Every time they try to MMMAAAAAASSSSIVELY buff us, they completely ignore a large portion of their players.

My main issue with these changes is whenever they tone down the Thief’s damage or survivability, like the up coming changes to the BP, it leaves PvE Thieves with crappy load out skills because PvE encounters were not rebalanced to the new changes. This was the issue with Guild Wars and they ended up separating PvE and PvP Skills. GW2 was heading that direction and they scrapped that idea and gave everybody who don’t play PvP the middle finger.

In the current Living Story, those pesky tentacles will be a major pain in the donkey if BP only ticks once every 2 seconds. They’re already pain in the donkey now. But oh well, the burden of a Thief.

i hate to admit that anet fell to understand venom utilities

2 venoms cause condition dmg – torment and poison. the poison mainly can say wont affect much with condition dmg rather than the -33% on healing . so basically 1 good condition venom
2 left venom are cc – chill and immobilize with dont need condition dmg to take affect better.

also regarding healing power only leeching venom benefit from it

so again it seems anet took venom to very nich nich nich situation in 5v5 or 10v10

as in larger fight conditions get cleanse fast so power base dmg is more suitable

but if group understand it and the mechanism and how it works it can do wonder on the first push but i can say the same on any other profession in the game

but dont underestimate the power of condition – it may open new line of group builds which consist thief and while the power warrior use his sword which does bleed he will stack also torments which together can yield massive burst with conditions and direct dmg

messiah.1908:

i hate to admit that anet fell to understand venom utilities

2 venoms cause condition dmg – torment and poison. the poison mainly can say wont affect much with condition dmg rather than the -33% on healing . so basically 1 good condition venom
2 left venom are cc – chill and immobilize with dont need condition dmg to take affect better.

also regarding healing power only leeching venom benefit from it

so again it seems anet took venom to very nich nich nich situation in 5v5 or 10v10

as in larger fight conditions get cleanse fast so power base dmg is more suitable

but if group understand it and the mechanism and how it works it can do wonder on the first push but i can say the same on any other profession in the game

Don’t rain on ArenaNet’s parade. The changes to the Venom Aura is brilliant and awesome even though you’re 100% correct that it will only affect one useful venom (torment) and a useless venom (leeching).

You should be patting them on the back for a job well done.

The change to venomous aura indicates the developers’ fundamental conceptual error regarding the trait. People don’t use Venomous Aura for it’s condition damage. Of the six venoms, the only two that actually do condition damage are the least used of them. The only people who bother using venoms/Venomous Aura do it for the utility conditions, at great cost to survivability and DPS.

The only place for venomous aura before was a niche use in a WvWvW zerg. The change to VA does nothing to affect this, anyone who uses it elsewhere is a detriment to their group or team.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

i hate to admit that anet fell to understand venom utilities

2 venoms cause condition dmg – torment and poison. the poison mainly can say wont affect much with condition dmg rather than the -33% on healing . so basically 1 good condition venom
2 left venom are cc – chill and immobilize with dont need condition dmg to take affect better.

also regarding healing power only leeching venom benefit from it

so again it seems anet took venom to very nich nich nich situation in 5v5 or 10v10

as in larger fight conditions get cleanse fast so power base dmg is more suitable

but if group understand it and the mechanism and how it works it can do wonder on the first push but i can say the same on any other profession in the game

Don’t rain on ArenaNet’s parade. The changes to the Venom Aura is brilliant and awesome even though you’re 100% correct that it will only affect one useful venom (torment) and a useless venom (leeching).

You should be patting them on the back for a job well done.

i think you know me as i using venoms from the beginning and the venom share concept in group fight b4 ppl knew it.

i love venoms but to take a major change to a thief and put it on a very nich build

for me its small change.

if the buff the dmg on the p/x to create another usable build i call it a more larger change

Time and time again, ArenaNet will make their stupid updates with no regards to the Thief players. All they’re concerned about is PvP and their tournaments while the rest of the Thief players has to deal with inefficient skills and traits in PvE encounters when those skills and traits used to be great before a nerf while not updating half of our utility skills to usefulness.

Like I said, they will parade and display those changes as if it’s a great achievement but they’re fooling no one but themselves.

the main problem is that venom share in itself is fine for its niche, there isn’t much else to do with it. but it’s holding every other venom trait hostage. residual venom, venomous strength, even the base cooldown on venoms and how many stacks they have untraited. all of this has to be weak to the point of uselessness because venomous aura would make a buff to any of those things OP.

the solution, to me, is obvious. put venomous aura on deadly arts. add downsides to the trait itself (say, one less charge, or 10% increased cooldown to venoms), so that the venoms themselves are allowed to flourish out of the niche of venom aura builds, and without spending twelve freaking points on venom traits.

BrunoBRS.5178:

all of this has to be weak to the point of uselessness because venomous aura would make a buff to any of those things OP.

Albeit every Thief probably knows that, the upcoming changes to Venom Aura is something we always desire as MAAAAASSSIVE buff to the Thief profession….right? right?

So instead of complaining and QQing about the upcoming changes, I’ve decided to cheer ArenaNet on their crowning achievement in understanding the Thief profession.

Yay for the VA changes!!!

>>PS: and you missed my sarcasm there. i’m saying that adding condi damage to utilities that don’t use condi damage in the first place is useless.

And you missed the bit where I was mentioning that what ifs of durations being shared as well. If durations are not shared the changes are distinctly underwhelming.

>>and please don’t forget there’s a cap of 5 stacks at a time for most duration conditions, 3 for immobilize (IIRC). so if your whole team uses devourer venom at once on the same guy, you just wasted your venoms.

To an extent all other professions that are support builds have to coordinate skills. As example it makes little sense to run a team wide condition cleanse when another on your team just ran it. A hammer train is much the same. You do not all make the leap at once.

The difference is in order to coordinate in such a manner using venom share a team has to all but refrain from attacking which is counterproductive or their own stacks will go to waste as you point out.

I am sure it has been suggested before but a change that will go a long ways towards addressing this is to change the nature of the venom skill to one similar that already exists in game.

That is the use of Mantras.

A venom should work much the same way. More key clicking to be sure but there should be more control by the person with venoms as to when they will use them.

When I load “spider venom” i get five stacks charged just as with a mantra. To inflict poison ONCE I click on that readied charge and attack and it dropped down to 4. To use Devourer once I do the same thing. If I want to use both I click on one of each and then attack.

This same process would apply to team members a venom share thief shares with. They do not HAVE to use those venoms on the next 5 attacks wherein they all burned off. They can husband them (to the point where they would normally expire) and use them when they feel it the best time to do so.

This way those chills/immobs/poisons can be stretched out over a wider duration.

This would make them much more telling in battle.

babazhook.6805:

A venom should work much the same way. More key clicking to be sure but there should be more control by the person with venoms as to when they will use them.

When I load “spider venom” i get five stacks charged just as with a mantra. To inflict poison ONCE I click on that readied charge and attack and it dropped down to 4. To use Devourer once I do the same thing. If I want to use both I click on one of each and then attack.

This same process would apply to team members a venom share thief shares with. They do not HAVE to use those venoms on the next 5 attacks wherein they all burned off. They can husband them (to the point where they would normally expire) and use them when they feel it the best time to do so.

This way those chills/immobs/poisons can be stretched out over a wider duration.

This would make them much more telling in battle.

Venom has to function uniquely as a venom. I rather have the venom to have an ON and OFF state.

When it’s on ON state, it applies venom to attacks every Xs for poison, every Ys for Torment and Chill, and every Zs for immob.

When it’s on OFF state, it has a passive effect that helps the Thief by applying their effects when the Thief is attacked. For example, Spider Venom will deal poison every Xs to anyone attacking the Thief.

This way, the Thief can choose to either use the venom as a defensive or offensive skill.

Then all venom related traits can be tweaked to enhance either ON or OFF state. For example, Residual Venom can reduce the cooldown of the passive OFF state effect of the venom and Quick Venom will reduce the cooldown of the ON state effect. This way Venom Strength can actually strengthen the venom instead of giving Might because honestly, this trait only improves 2 out of 6 venoms since 4 of them doesn’t scale from power nor condition damage.

But whatever…/wishful-thinking-ends.

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

i would just buff the venom like
add more 200 power to your next 3-5 attacks – so it scale with power builds
add more condition duration/power to your next 5 attacks – scale with condi build
add more healing power to skelk venom – buff the heal skill
your next 3 attacks will crit
it will open new world for hybrid build which will buff when needed

or as other suggested
use f2.3.4 key for venoms/traps and give new skills for the thief

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

so you want something that takes the best of signets and mantras, but none of the downsides? like an engi kit with a passive effect? because that’s not happening.

Really wish they would have made it use thief condi-duration rather than damage as others have mentioned. Something like a 6/x/6/x/x venomshare with duration food and runes in soldiers armor could have been an actual soft CC machine, especially since maximizing venoms already means 6 in both of those lines.

Could have been something like:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZMQNAoaVl0MpqpdNx0J8PNRMhwdqf986s2NWEA-TFiBABA8EAAc/hrU+Rp6PKqE8O9BScIAU4EAQKAxWGB-w

Spreading weakness and interrupts like crazy, or maybe an S/D version intended to just control through dazes, immobilizes, chills, siphoning, and boonrips. Thiefmancer?

I wouldn’t call ANet out of touch on this one, they just sort of picked the wrong side of it to extend into support.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

so you want something that takes the best of signets and mantras, but none of the downsides? like an engi kit with a passive effect? because that’s not happening.

That’s why I’ve posted “wishful-thinking”… >.<’

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

so you want something that takes the best of signets and mantras, but none of the downsides? like an engi kit with a passive effect? because that’s not happening.

That’s why I’ve posted “wishful-thinking”… >.<’

i’d rather see wishful thinking that is trying to provide something the devs can look at and go “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it” rather than “this is ridiculous, i won’t even bother”.

i mean, yeah, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks, but try to aim just a little.

This is what I envision. There a warrior trait that adds precision for each unused signet. It an adept trait and adds 40 precision for each unused signet.

As A GM trait with residual venom I would…

Drop it one tier.

ADD 80 precision for each unused venom.
When I venom used the precision boost for that venom lost BUT the venom gains XXX charges just like a mantra.
The Venom can then be clicked JUST as a mantra and burn off one of those charges each time it used in an attack.

In theory someone can load up 5 venoms and if they never use them have +400 precision. That might seem a lot but it is not given no one is going to use all venoms. They will be dead in a hurry and they then have to decide whether to keep that precision or charge up the venom for those CCs or that torment/poison.

Instead of Precision each unused venom can add POWER or CONDITION duration (5 percent per? or Condition damage (3 percent more per unused venom condition damage) or toughness or healing…whatever.

Or boost those numbers/durations and keep it at GM tier.

You then have the passive if traited. You then have a system wherein you do not have to use all the venoms up on your next 3 attacks. You one charge..wait use another and so on.

meh, i don’t like solutions that add passive play to venoms, i’d rather see their active power increased. there are already enough signets in the game that are “well yeah it sucks, but at least the passive is good!”

>>meh, i don’t like solutions that add passive play to venoms, i’d rather see their active power increased. there are already enough signets in the game that are “well yeah it sucks, but at least the passive is good!”

It is these adds that allow diversity in other builds.

For example warriors do not have to trait power at all as they can derive it from “armored Attack”.

They also get vitality out of Great Fortitude. They get precision from unused signets.Other classes get more damge based on number of clones, toughness based on minions and the like. That is akin to a passive from the minion yet the minion is doing damage.

In allowing such passives one opens possibilities for the thief to explore other traitlines in a build using that passive as compensation.

Those venom skills ARE useful. The problem is they are “early overkill” as they get burned off too quick. Put control over when you can use them and they become more powerful.Spiders venom is the single easiest example. Why do I want to stack 5 stacks all at once?

Now as to signets and the passive, this DEMONSTRATES the need for other sources of power/precision. People can not get enough through other means so slot in that signet and keep the passive running. This eats up a utility slot. This means less places to slot your venoms in a venom build. If you get that passive from a venom its a two for one in that slot allowing more flexibility in your build.

IE I would love to put devourerer in my build but can not afford the precision loss from the loss of SOA. Well maybe i take a little less precision, get that devourerer and decide in battle when I would rather use IMMOB or have that extra precision.

so i decided to try venom share with a havoc group on WvW today.

it’s OP… against a single target, which 5 people should be OP against anyway. any other situation and your complete lack of damage and survivability (even if you spare a slot for a good stunbreak like shadowstep or roll for initiative) makes you a liability. you will be focused down and you will be unable to react.

point is, you can’t be a good supporting character if you can’t stay alive to provide that support. venom share forces us to sacrifice that ability to stay alive through overreliance on traits (less than 10 points on venoms and you won’t be providing enough to warrant using them).

my takeaway is i don’t know, maybe venoms could sustain a buff to their untraited versions without making venom share OP.

BrunoBRS.5178:

so i decided to try venom share with a havoc group on WvW today.

it’s OP… against a single target, which 5 people should be OP against anyway. any other situation and your complete lack of damage and survivability (even if you spare a slot for a good stunbreak like shadowstep or roll for initiative) makes you a liability. you will be focused down and you will be unable to react.

point is, you can’t be a good supporting character if you can’t stay alive to provide that support. venom share forces us to sacrifice that ability to stay alive through overreliance on traits (less than 10 points on venoms and you won’t be providing enough to warrant using them).

my takeaway is i don’t know, maybe venoms could sustain a buff to their untraited versions without making venom share OP.

5v5 full venom is op and viable – if targeted any thief will have hard time. venom share thief will have to be more carefull
10v10 still usefull but have to time right the use because conditions get cleanse easily by shouts
20v20 here the thief start to be bit less helpful and should focused on more power burst build or basic venom build without share like 2,0,6,0,6 on the periphery

but maybe if the group will focus build on power alone the thief can share his condition dmg and healing power to support them when needed and to help them burst. only time will tell

messiah.1908:

BrunoBRS.5178:

so i decided to try venom share with a havoc group on WvW today.

it’s OP… against a single target, which 5 people should be OP against anyway. any other situation and your complete lack of damage and survivability (even if you spare a slot for a good stunbreak like shadowstep or roll for initiative) makes you a liability. you will be focused down and you will be unable to react.

point is, you can’t be a good supporting character if you can’t stay alive to provide that support. venom share forces us to sacrifice that ability to stay alive through overreliance on traits (less than 10 points on venoms and you won’t be providing enough to warrant using them).

my takeaway is i don’t know, maybe venoms could sustain a buff to their untraited versions without making venom share OP.

5v5 full venom is op and viable – if targeted any thief will have hard time. venom share thief will have to be more carefull
10v10 still usefull but have to time right the use because conditions get cleanse easily by shouts
20v20 here the thief start to be bit less helpful and should focused on more power burst build or basic venom build without share like 2,0,6,0,6 on the periphery

but maybe if the group will focus build on power alone the thief can share his condition dmg and healing power to support them when needed and to help them burst. only time will tell

i was on a group of 5. the only time venom share proved to be of any effectiveness was when this one guy running away towards his zerg got immobilized and couldn’t get out. 5 people using a crappy venom on 5 opponents doesn’t change the fact that the venom is crappy. and if all 5 people are focusing one guy, well, then you don’t need the venoms to kill that guy in the first place.

and a thief in a group scenario can usually dodge around, stealth, spike the biggest threat, get out, get back in, and so forth. a typical thief will also have far more survival tools equipped both as utilities and as traits. case in point, i dropped the venom share setup later that night and my survivability spiked.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

so you want something that takes the best of signets and mantras, but none of the downsides? like an engi kit with a passive effect? because that’s not happening.

That’s why I’ve posted “wishful-thinking”… >.<’

i’d rather see wishful thinking that is trying to provide something the devs can look at and go “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it” rather than “this is ridiculous, i won’t even bother”.

i mean, yeah, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks, but try to aim just a little.

Do you really think that the dev says to themselves “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it”?

That’s a wishful thinking in itself.

You see, even if the idea is sound the dev never ponders nor test the idea because they have this per-conceived view on how they want the Thief to function, that is, if the Warrior can’t use it, throw it to the Thief. If not that, they will invent something that they think that the Thief community will be excited about — just like the change to Flanking Strike — the idea of it stripping 2 boons was all theirs, now it’s getting nerf to uselessness. All we ever asked for was a very reasonable and sound bug fix for them to fix the animation and positioning — but nooo, ArenaNet knows better.

That’s always been the attitude of ArenaNet towards us Thieves. So even if we offered a sound and reasonable idea, it will still be a wishful thinking.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

so you want something that takes the best of signets and mantras, but none of the downsides? like an engi kit with a passive effect? because that’s not happening.

That’s why I’ve posted “wishful-thinking”… >.<’

i’d rather see wishful thinking that is trying to provide something the devs can look at and go “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it” rather than “this is ridiculous, i won’t even bother”.

i mean, yeah, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks, but try to aim just a little.

Do you really think that the dev says to themselves “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it”?

That’s a wishful thinking in itself.

You see, even if the idea is sound the dev never ponders nor test the idea because they have this per-conceived view on how they want the Thief to function, that is, if the Warrior can’t use it, throw it to the Thief. If not that, they will invent something that they think that the Thief community will be excited about — just like the change to Flanking Strike — the idea of it stripping 2 boons was all theirs, now it’s getting nerf to uselessness. All we ever asked for was a very reasonable and sound bug fix for them to fix the animation and positioning — but nooo, ArenaNet knows better.

That’s always been the attitude of ArenaNet towards us Thieves. So even if we offered a sound and reasonable idea, it will still be a wishful thinking.

welp, then it’s better to not suggest at all, right? i mean, why bother?

/sarcasm

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra

Signet has a one time activated effect before cooldown, while mantra has no passive effect — so no. I want venom to be venom that while ON it adds effect on attacks and while OFF it deals its effect on attackers.

so you want something that takes the best of signets and mantras, but none of the downsides? like an engi kit with a passive effect? because that’s not happening.

That’s why I’ve posted “wishful-thinking”… >.<’

i’d rather see wishful thinking that is trying to provide something the devs can look at and go “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it” rather than “this is ridiculous, i won’t even bother”.

i mean, yeah, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks, but try to aim just a little.

Do you really think that the dev says to themselves “oh, i wonder if something like that could work in game. let’s test it”?

That’s a wishful thinking in itself.

You see, even if the idea is sound the dev never ponders nor test the idea because they have this per-conceived view on how they want the Thief to function, that is, if the Warrior can’t use it, throw it to the Thief. If not that, they will invent something that they think that the Thief community will be excited about — just like the change to Flanking Strike — the idea of it stripping 2 boons was all theirs, now it’s getting nerf to uselessness. All we ever asked for was a very reasonable and sound bug fix for them to fix the animation and positioning — but nooo, ArenaNet knows better.

That’s always been the attitude of ArenaNet towards us Thieves. So even if we offered a sound and reasonable idea, it will still be a wishful thinking.

welp, then it’s better to not suggest at all, right? i mean, why bother?

/sarcasm

At the current ArenaNet attitude towards the Thieves, yes, we shouldn’t even bother. Because otherwise, we would see in their Ready Up or patch note that they’ve tested a specific suggestion and it just didn’t work out to they have to make some modifications for it to work. However, patch after patch as if the Thief community doesn’t exist.

Just look at the upcoming patch. Whoever suggested to increase the range of pistol when traited Ricochet? That’s as dumb as it can get. If anything, SB should have the increased ranged, not pistol. Also nobody asked for Unload to have the casting time reduced, instead the suggestion was to improve the pistol’s #1 auto-attack. Even before that, nobody ever suggested on adding CC to body shot. Our traits are even worst. The changes to Mug, Opportunist, etc were not something the Thief community have suggested.

We can make all the reasonable suggestions as much as we like, they’re nothing but a wishful thinking to ArenaNet. And that’s why some of us bother, I myself am simply wishing. Just like the upcoming change to Assassin’s Equilibrium, that change was wished for way back before the December 10 patch — not because it’s a buff for the trait we’re asking for, it’s because the trait was crap to begin with.

BrunoBRS.5178:

and please don’t forget there’s a cap of 5 stacks at a time for most duration conditions, 3 for immobilize (IIRC). so if your whole team uses devourer venom at once on the same guy, you just wasted your venoms.

The cap is 9 stacks atm for duration conditions, except immobilize which has just a cap of 3 as you correctly pointed out.

But apart from this, I agree with everything you said – imo a venom share thief in party is, most of the time, a subpar choice if compared to other builds (thief or not), with the most notable problem being the inability to avoid focus from the enemy party.